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Need support....alicat
November 22, 2005
11:05 am
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gayle
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Ali- I wrote a letter to him in a thread called I just need to get this out. Really- things are good, he is having a relapse with depression and that means he isolates himself from everyone. This too shall pass. We love eachother and aren't broken up- he just needs some time on his own to heal. I hate that he hurts. Ali- I want to thank you for asking about me, in the midst of all that you are going through that really means alot. Thank you 🙂 Gayle

November 22, 2005
11:23 am
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Lost-

I feel LOST.

I know I shouldn't - but I went back thru all the emails and some of the correspondences from this year.

And I realize how long I have been patiently waiting for things to improve.

Meanwhile, he sends me a text and email saying he thinks ending this relationship is the wrong thing to do and will discuss it with me tomorrow, when he gets here for the thanksgiving holiday, cuz he plans on spending it with his family.

The more I think about this and the toll it's taken and how long I have put into this - the more I realize that I HAVE been patient.

Codependent me filled his email box with a bunch of notes - thoughts on what I was feeling, as well as copies of things we said in the past - including his promise to give up his NY life if it took too much of a toll on us - question being - when does HE think "enough is enough"....his threshold and tolerance is obviously higher than mine.

I am curious to what he has to say - I have kept no contact so far - as I worked my second job last nite - and got the mesages this morning from him.

I have made it very clear to him that going forward, if anything is worked out, I will NOT be his emotional punching bag and that my faith and patience with his plans are gone - and he is up against that....I am angry, hurt and sad, as well as a host of other emotions.

I simply do not know what direction to turn...he keeps saying that he knows he screwed up all along - but therapy was supposed to be our answer.

Is it really?...that's what I keep wondering.

And just what IS this plan he has? apparently I have to wait to hear that too.

so...as I said, I am lost.

November 22, 2005
11:30 am
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Gayle -

in response to your thread on your post....
YOU WROTE - I know you are going through a really hard time yourself and I hope that he sees the light and opens his eyes and chooses all that you have to offer him rather than the alternative of losing a bright wonderful caring woman.

See, that's the thing.

I created a situation where he can't come back.

I didn't give him a choice.

I don't know HOW to give him a choice.

You see -
I told him to come up with the money or take name off the lease.

Coming up with the money is NOT an option - so taking his name off the lease is his only choice.

That means he has to stay with his mom until he can find a new place to live. Which means he is in NY. Which means he is no longer a CT resident. Which means he won't be getting his divorce, short of a miracle. And no divorce means no "us" - cuz I put my foot down on that a while ago...and said that I wouldn't continue if the divorce wasn't imminent....well, if he stays in CT, the divorce can be filed as soon as he has the money and finalized in June, no questions asked - uncontested.

So - I don't see an option.

I forced this one - he didn't choose. His choice is to stay with me.

I am the one that is saying I have no patience of his learning curve and I have no more faith in his ability to be the person I need him to be.

I am so lost....I wish there was a choice here.

November 22, 2005
11:45 am
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Hi Ali,

Can I ask you something, What do you want out of a relationship? If you want a commited relationship he may have a hard time doing this even if you get through the current problems.

Trust me, I am speaking from experience. When I met my BF he was going through a divorce. I told him at the very begining I do NOT want to start a realtionship if you are going to want to act single when your divorce is final. He reassured me that was not the case.

Over the past few months he has put some distance between us. His divorce was final in June. But I want to get married and have kids and now I feel like our relationship has went backwards. I am sure it's part of his healing process but when is enough, enough?

I guess you have to look at what do you want for you future and your daughter? Do you want to waste anymore time on something that may not be what you ultimatley want anyhow?

Having said that, I know it is SO much easier said then done. I think you are doing what is best for you and your daughter and you should be proud of yourself.I feel for you and I understand what it feels like to be lost.

Hugs, Lost

November 22, 2005
11:58 am
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Ali,

I hope that you're feeling a little better today.

(((Ali))), I have to be honest with you here my friend. Your posts still show that you are excusing his behavior and taking too much blame on to yourself.

You said.....

"I created a situation where he can't come back."

"I didn't give him a choice."

How can you say that you didn't give him a choice? From what I have read over the past months...you have given him PLENTY of choices....and he CHOSE to do nothing.

You also said.....

"I am the one that is saying I have no patience of his learning curve and I have no more faith in his ability to be the person I need him to be."

Ali honey, if I didn't know better, and I read this, I would think you were talking about a child here. He is not a child. He is a grown man. There is no "learning curve"....he either wants to change or he doesn't. When you feel the need to get something done...you do it, right? You thought you needed help....so you got help. You needed a second job....so you got a second job. You needed money for rent...so you got money for rent. Do you see where I'm going here? If he truely wanted to change...he would at least make an attempt....which so far I haven't seen it written here if he has.

Ali, I will support you no matter what you decide. I am not here to judge you, nor would I, just as you have never judged me.

Having said that, whatever you decide...please do it with the blinders off. (a wise friend once told me that).

Take care,
Lolli

November 22, 2005
11:59 am
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We have a committed relationship - we are living together, and plan to marry once his divorce is finalized.

the paperwork has to be done and filed - the emotional stuff is done....so I think anyway. It's been well over two years.

We both want marriage and family.

However, in addition to that, he wants a real estate career and he wants it NOW and he wants it ONLY in NY, where he used to live...nothing else will do.

That's what all of our struggles have been about...since day one.

And codependent me used to say "make a choice - if you love me enough, you will give up your real estate career and focus on us". Then I was told I was codependent and it was wrong to demand he do that.

But that's the source of our problems....period.

November 22, 2005
12:07 pm
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Lolli,

First of all - my comment about me creating no choice was in response to gayle saying perhaps he will choose to come back - and that I didn't give him a choice...there is no choice. Yes, I gave him plenty of choices all along. This time, there isn't one.

Secondly, his learning curve. He WANTS to change - as do I. But when I say learning curve - consider your therapy and recovery - was it overnight???? NO, far from it - it took time - and you had many slip ups and backsliding. Some learn faster than others, and recover faster - some move slower - how long were you in therapy before you finally "got it"? Not trying to aruge here...just explain what I mean by learning curve.

He HAS made attempts at change - he IS in therapy, we ARE in joint therapy, he IS applying for jobs and interviewing, we sat down and did a budget together, he agreed to plans on paying things back....there are sincere attempts.

When I had trust issues - he changed - he has totally cut WAY back on his computer time - I don't see him on the computer more than 20 minutes a day, if that - and he isn't sneaking it...he just stopped it. He has stopped communicating with all the women online. He keeps in touch when he is on the road. Around the house, he carries his weight with chores and responsibilities.

So please understand, I am not making excuses, I am simply answering what other people ask....and sometimes it's a repeat of something I said before.

I know there is no choice here....I know I gave him chances...I know change doesn't happen overnight...I know I have no patience for waiting while he does change...

November 22, 2005
12:09 pm
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lollipop3
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Ali,

Well, I certainly hope that it all works out for you.

As I said, I will be here to support you no matter which path you choose.

Lolli

November 22, 2005
12:12 pm
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gayle
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Ali- Lets back up a bit. How many times has this happened with money and how many times have you swooped in and saved the day. I don't know his past, but saw above where he has noone but you, his family and his ex wife. I have a question about him and his ex, I know that she wants him back, and that they talk. Has he told her- look its over, I want a divorce and there is no going back with us? B/C if she filed it wouldn't matter where he lived. It seems like that relationship is not 100% over. Maybe this time apart will give him what he needs to tell her to just let him go. I know with my bf, his ex wife called him for ever wanting to be friends and then want more and he would tell her to leave him alone and she would for a while and then she would call again. Finally, he told her there was no chance of them even being friends and if she ever called him again he would change his number. All of that happened when we weren't talking and he did it, not for me but because he didn't want her in his life anymore. Maybe your b/f needs time to know his own mind and a chance to do things on his own. Did his wife fix things for him too? I was wondering if this was a pattern with him.

I hope that wasn't too harsh b/c I don't mean it that way. You set a boundry, that is healthy to do. You need to know your limit and he does too! When we start taking care of ourselves first its easy for us to feel guilty, like just one more chance would do it and everything would be ok. Yes, he is in therapy and so are you, that is wonderful and you are both working on your issues. Honey, you have to take care of Ali first, then your daughter and then him. He is a grown man and made choices he has to live with. You told him what you can and can't accept and there is nothing wrong with that. Don't feel guilty for taking care of you first. I know its hard. I had to tell my xh that it was over and no matter how many times he promises to change I am just done. To this day he still would like to try again but I set a boundry and I intend to keep it, is it hard at times? Yes, we have 2 sons and they miss their dad and don't always understand why he can't come home. He even tries to get our oldest son to talk me into letting him come around. Talk about hard. But I have to stick to my guns.

That all being said, pray about it and ask for the right words to say. Sometimes we make boundries that we never had any intention to keep. We are all human and are allowed to change our mind and you have to look at the foundation of your relationship and what it is built on to know if it is strong enough to withstand anymore. I don't know your b/f but I know that amongst the hard things you have been through there have been good times as well. It can't hurt to hear what he has to say. Be honest with him about the divorce. Ask for what you need and if he can't give it to you then you know its time to say good bye. But maybe he will surprise you! My prayers are with you! G

November 22, 2005
12:26 pm
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Gayle -

he has told her PLENTY of times it's over - and there is no going back. Has asked for a divorce. She knows about me too, and I have even spoken to her - and yet still hangs on. She won't file. He has no grounds to file and she won't agree to separation agreement. She signed papers once, then broke into his stuff and stole them back before he filed them...said she had second thoughts.

I don't think his ex wife ever fixed things for him - I think he was a pretty strong, inependent person in his marriage - they weren't "close" - more like two people living in a house together - they loved eachother, but he claims there wasn't anywhere close to the intimacy level that he and I have.

I think his family and her family all bailed him out before tho....not alot, but more times than he likes to admit - and I can't throw stones, I rely heavily on my parents from time to time - but not big ticket stuff, usually for a few meals or something...his was usually big ticket stuff.

I have set the same boundaries over and over and over again - I keep bending the rules - and ending up in the same spot - which is why I keep thinking that this time I got to stick to them.

Our foundation is rocky - always has been - and when he cheated on me - it just about crumbled.

Funny that I can forgive him for cheating on me - and rebuilt the trust on many levels - yet the financial thing I just CAN'T LET GO - it is a hot button for me and something I just can't get over. I don't know what it means - but it scares me. He can cheat on me, and that's forgiveable, but I can't forgive him for the financial mess he created. Maybe cuz the cheating didn't affect my daughter, only me and the finances and eviction would hurt her??? dunno - but finances are ALWAYS a HUGE problem for me and my roommates or partners.

I will listen to what he has to say. I know what our options on divorce are and what my boundaries are.

I keep thinking about how much things haven't changed in the last year - and now he thinks therapy will turn that around - saying that without therapy, we won't get better. Maybe he is right - but I don't know how much I can handle...I seem to have had enough.

I keep asking for the same thing - and getting the same results - which are not what I want. And I am tired of it.

I WISH he was an alcoholic, druggie or physically abused me (one time)...simply cuz I could justify getting rid of him.

But when it's just a matter of trying but no results - and not meeting my needs - I have a hard time moving on...especially cuz on alot of levels, he DOES meet my needs.....just the financial stuff is a real deal breaker right now....and I hate that it's all about money...always hated that.

November 22, 2005
12:32 pm
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gayle
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Gonna go to lunch and then I will be back to reply!

November 22, 2005
12:32 pm
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oh, and money.

well, last christmas he was broke, I went overboard and got him a NICE gift - very expensive. I got a CD and some coupons (that I can't use cuz he is broke) for promises to do things with me.

For his birthday when we first met, I took him away to boston.

Then, when his truck was repossessed - I gave him a $1k loan to help him get it back...his grandma gave him the other half. He was paying me back $100 a month - faithfully, until money got tight...then I declared bankruptcy - and the loan was from a cash advance on my credit card, so I told him he didn't have to pay the rest - he owed another $400 (which was probably all interest) and he promised to pay it back someday.

Then he totalled that truck. And we had two options - I could finance a car in my name or he could buy his wife's truck from her. It had 76K miles on it, and with a 1K mile commute each WEEK - I said it didn't make sense. So I financed the car in my name. He was against it, but didn't speak loud enough, cuz I had to have it my way. I still think I did the right thing. He has that truck now and in six weeks, he's nearing 90K miles - and too broke to maintenance it. He did pay for the car for the two months he drove it...but then I had my accident and totalled my other care and I took it back - he couldn't afford it at that point anyway.

Then the eviction thing....and all along, since October, I have fed him and paid his half of the utilities.

Also, my brother loaned him money to pay his real estate dues and fees, so he could keep up with it...and has not paid any of it back.

This is a slippery slope - and I have fixed things too many times.

When this time came up, I asked my bro for the loan, SIMPLY cuz I didn't want to be evicted. I told him if he didn't want to move out, he had to come up with the money - otherwise, I would pay it - simply to save the home for me and my daughter...and that his home was NOT my problem.

So that's where we stand.

November 22, 2005
2:47 pm
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Ali- It seems like you have it all laid out before you and you have a clear understanding of what you will and won't accept. That is hard to do and you have done it. I think that all you can do now is listen to what he says and have this all in front of you and then respond in kind. If he has come up with a viable solution then that might be an option and if not you know you are doing what you need to take care of you. Just let me know what happens, I am always here to listen. Gayle

November 22, 2005
2:58 pm
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I'm so scared.

I want this to work so damn badly. We put so much effort into this. I just don't know how to make it work. I am tired of crying over this relationship.

Part of me feels relief for the stress being gone, part of me hurts over it, part of me is beating another part of me up for bailing on the plan and not being patient enough to see it thru to the end of the year, like I had promised myself and him.

Here is the thing - one way or another, he has to pay me back....so what is it going to hurt to let him stay until then?...and see if we can work it out? And if not, take his name off the lease in January instead of December.

I don't know....I'm flip-flopping so badly now, it isn't funny.

November 22, 2005
3:15 pm
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Is letting him stay until January a legitimate option? Or is it an excuse to keep him around?

November 22, 2005
3:43 pm
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define legitimate?

I had it in my head to give this until January first - that would give us time to get thru some therapy and time for him to get caught up on his finances with his christmas tips.

But I bailed because I didn't want to take the loan from my brother and got angry about having to ask again.

I don't know if it's legitimate or not...

just another way to keep him around....well, I dunno...I suppose it's possible...yet, I don't mind the idea of being alone.

I have a harder idea with giving up or "losing" or being wrong about something I tried to believe in for so long.

November 22, 2005
4:00 pm
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turnabout
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I wasn't asking for my sake, but rather giving you something to ask yourself.

It's the difficulty in bailing from a sinking ship that makes us codependent. ("how do i know it's really sinking? what if it's just a false alarm? then i'll be stuck in the water when I wish I were on the ship!" But, honey, when the water is swirling around your ankles, time's up for debating!)

So, if you were able to detach from the situation, is there a rational reason for letting him stay until January? Is there really nothing to lose by taking this option? (I think I know the answer to that one, but this is for YOU to answer knowing the FULL circumstances surrounding all of this.)

It's hard being wrong on something we've believed in b/c we've allowed our self-esteem to rest in that something's success. But relationships are a bad means of judging our self-worth b/c relationships ALWAYS involve someone else. So, you end up judging yourself wholly for something in which another force outside of your control contributed half! That's just unfair. All you can control is yourself and your own responsibilities. You have to be responsible to yourself and your daughter. That's the bottom line right now. No need to apologize for it. That's what owning your own life and responsibilities is all about.

November 22, 2005
4:09 pm
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Rational or reasonable?

Rational would be to allow ourselves time to go thru some therapy and see if a professional can get thru to us and we can get thru the pain and the hurt and change past defective behaviours.

Is that rational?

What do I have to lose?...time...I could be working on getting over this and moving on, or I can try for one month more. Will I lose anything more financially?...no. Will I lose anything more emotionally - perhaps...but no way to really rell. Will I lose anything more physically?...no. Will I lose anything more spiritually or personally?...no, not if I do what I should have been doing all along - focusing on me and my "stuff" and taking my eyes off of his and his "stuff".

Is this rational?...I'm codependent...how the hell would I know?...asking the wrong person.

Also - having him there would probably give me a better chance of recouping my money...if he had to go find somewhere new to live, he may forgo paying me back so he can put it aside for a new place. I wouldn't take him back for this purpose - just for money - but it is a factor.

November 22, 2005
4:12 pm
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Bottom line is, I dont' know what's reasonable or rational anymore.

From what I know, I should have bailed a long time ago...but I chose this and was committed to seeing where it went and giving it some time. My commitment failed me tho.

and yes, I understand that I had good reason to bail on the commitment.

November 22, 2005
4:16 pm
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Ali- I think that deep down you want to give him one last shot and keep to your original agreement when he moved out, that you made a initial decision because you were mad about having to ask your brother for help and now you are more calm and want to see what happens? Am I even close?

November 22, 2005
4:26 pm
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gayle,

I don't even know.

for the life of me I don't know how to bury the anger and hurt I feel right now.

I said before that I reread some of the emails from last january forward and realize how deep this problem runs.

What I don't know is if therapy will change this or if this is truly who he is...if it's a sign of immaturity that can change or an ingrained behaviour that will never change.

And lastly, I am so angry and hurt right now, I don't know how to go home and be nice to him and put it behind us, like he wants to do - how to sleep next to him at night when I am so angry.

I read threads here about people who sleep in separate beds from their partners or share a home despite the anger and pain...I seriously don't know how to do it...my gut says "flee" when the going gets tough...when I get angry...which I am...my instinct is to run. He has trust issues with me, cuz since we met (and all my other relationships) I run when the going gets tough...I don't stick around and work things out...I get angry...and being angry scares me, so I get out.

Does that make any sense?

I don't know what I want.

Part of me is happy that this happened - and in some way I knew this would come and I expected it. I knew the deadline was gonna happen, and I figured it would end us. I didn't expect the deadline so soon...figured he might have a chance to get caught up come first of the year...they caught us off guard by giving us a week. I don't blame them - we are behind...that's not their problem.

The other part of me is so in love with him - and he is a good partner....and I have never loved someone on this level....I also feel like I am supposed to ride this out, cuz if I go it alone - I won't have a partner in therapy with me saying "she does this or she does that"....which sparks me to learn and grow and be a better partner. For instance, I am told I talk to him like a two year old - and I do....but how would I know this if I wasn't with him?...until the next unsuspecting guy came along...cuz this is not the first time a boyfriend has told it to me...but usually I tell him off...does that make sense?

anyway - if it weren't for the finances, alot of our stress (90%) would be GONE and we'd be happy.

so I keep asking myself if I want finances to be the death of us.

i'm lost and confused.

November 22, 2005
4:29 pm
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Part of me says I should honor my agreement, part of me says to stay gone.

November 22, 2005
4:37 pm
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turnabout
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LOL... "Is this rational?...I'm codependent...how the hell would I know?...asking the wrong person."

I'm laughing b/c I can relate to your scrambled state. It's so hard to know which way is up when you want two things (emotional security v. financial security) that seem to cancel each other out. Yup, been there.

I'm asking whether it is reasonable allowing him to stay when you don't take into account the emotional factors. Would letting him stay or asking him to leave significantly change anything else? Your emotions are carrying you away in all this, so if you can remove them for just a moment, is there a choice that MUST be made for the sake of you and your daughter's personal (financial) security?

If not, then add the emotions back into the equation.

November 22, 2005
4:40 pm
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No, having him leave would not make a difference - not significant - it simply means he would have to pay his portion of the rent for one more month - which is only $250.00, and do-able for him.

So, when you take the emotions out, no, there is no reason to make him stay or go.

So, if we put emotions back in...then what?

November 22, 2005
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turnabout
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Then you ask what the relationship is worth to you.

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