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Need Perspective on Lying
November 6, 2001
9:57 am
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artist 2
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Am I a prude, or is lying a valid reason to break off a relationship?

November 6, 2001
10:28 am
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artist
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Lying about what--squeezing the toothpaste tube from the middle instead of rolling it or about cheating on you with another girl?
There are all kinds of lying. Please give more info.
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November 6, 2001
10:49 am
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Ladeska
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Artist 2 - I just posted this to you on the thread - Just found out the truth. Thought I would put it here as well.

People who are pathological liars - are good at it. I think it gives them quite the power trip - that they can "fool you". I think we get into trouble when we keep supposing or hoping that - we can apply our template or code for morality and conscience to them....when in all reality - what we respect and adhere to - they consider weakness.

To trust, to love, to be truthful isn't something they consider - worth their time. At some point in their lives they gave all that up in exchange for - the big con game.

They very much count on the fact that you will come alongside them and want to save them from themselves. They count on the fact that you will pity them, pull out the wonderful things in them and be their little cheerleader.. And they rather despise you for it secretly. But, that doesn't keep them from using you....in fact, that makes it all the more - easy.

What hangs us up with a person like this is our own ego. We think we are "all that", that we can change them, that they will become whatever because - we love them. And we keep waltsing with them because we really won't accept the fact that - they conned us. Our pride and ego keep that from happening. How could we have been so blind and stupid?

But, at some point we have to realize what happened and just say Hey, they were good at, that's for sure. Fooled me and people like that fool very bright people - every day - with no problem whatsoever.

We just have to take it in the gut, cut the strings, become wiser for it and get the hell away from them like - yesterday. Enough with trying to find out why and if there is anything else we could have done, blah, blah, blah. That all points to ego again trying desperately to "win".

Staying in close proximity to a liar never accomplishes anything, escept to pull you down farther and farther. I'd like to see people let go of their ego long enough to have some wisdom and to realize at some point - winning - is walking away.

November 6, 2001
12:06 pm
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Molly
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I don't think it matters one way or another what they lie about, when you know they lie, do you ever know when to anticipate the truth? You live in paranoia, all the energy of psyching out the story, just like Ladeska says, cut the strings and walk, its no way to live, makes you crazy. The truth is just such an easier way to live.

November 6, 2001
1:12 pm
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Ladeska
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...you know...anymore - looking at our society - I'm rather amazed at this thing I see happening.... People are consumed with "lying" in one way or another. More and more - I think we really like to be lied to and.....look for it.

I took one look at Clinton when he first came into view in the public eye and about threw up a hairball. I said to whoever was sitting there with me - OH MY GOD, here we go.... I knew what he was about by just looking at him. A southern boy who was raised up being a good liar who knows how to charm people as well. People will never know what hit them because most of the nation doesn't understand how good these evangelists/used car salesmen are at their craft. And people wouldn't know - if they weren't raised in the south. Clinton just happened to have had some extra polish applied to his already innate skills.

But, we do gravitate towards these personalities like moths drawn to the flames... And I guess it's because - they know how to stroke our egos so well - that we crave that - more than our own safety. Sort of a poor report card for how we are doing in self-esteem, isn't it?

And this bunk about good self-esteem being - How Wonderful you are, blah, blah, blah - is crap, too. That would be jumping off the other end of the bridge into becoming a narcissistic monster as well.

It's like we've lost the concept of - in order to really ring our inner buttons that really satisfy - it's little more than - truly being useful in this life. Sounds trite, but it's true. Everything comes from that point. So much of our sickness comes from - being lazy, letting others think for us, wanting others to fight our battles for us and pretty much support us financially, emotionally and spiritually.

We'd pretty much believe anything as long as someone stroked us long enough to keep us happy in our laziness. That's how people con other people. Isn't hard.

The minute we truly become productive in this life and engage our life force as it was meant to hummm....then we don't throw out that red neon sign that says - Do Me, I'm available.... It pretty much reads - Do Not Disturb, I'm busy....to such people.

Healthy minds - question everything. They question themselves regularly and they definitely take nothing at face value. They don't need ego boosts because their ego is busy being productive and gets quite a bit of reward from that - as life begats life...

So, do we conjur up the court jester because we lay around on our couches and do not want to see what we are becoming or have become? Good question.

November 6, 2001
1:16 pm
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artist
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I agree with both of you, Molly and Ladeska. When trust is broken, it's time to move on.
I didn't understand artist 2's story when I replied.
I was thinking about those little white lies that we(maybe--but most certainly I) tell about insignificant stuff and those omissions of fact to spare feelings or to avoid an argument. I guess a lie is a lie and there is no condoning it.
The fact that sometimes I don't want to talk about what I feel to the people important to me is another issure entirely. So, listen to Molly and Ladeska, artist 2--they got the goods.
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November 6, 2001
1:25 pm
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Ladeska
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Artist....my boyfriend brought up a significant point a few months ago when we were talking about integrity and he mentioned that alot of times the things we say in regard to someone we don't even know - is really, really being quite untruthful. Like commenting on a celebrity's life, as if we - knew them personally. Or, just talking about things in general - that are really us mimicking something someone told us - that we ourselves haven't personally checked out. This...is a lack of integrity, too. Really made me think about alot of things.... Tends to make a person rather quiet...

November 6, 2001
1:36 pm
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Good point--I reread your paragraph 5 times--I truly am a slow study.

November 6, 2001
1:38 pm
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There was more BUT I hit the wrong button. I was going to finish by saying that I LOVE food for thought(yum)
This is me being quiet now.
Artist:)

November 6, 2001
2:17 pm
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Ladeska
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Yeah, it just made me think, too and still does...Now I hesitate before I say things like - I really don't like her - talking about someone in the news or a celebrity because now there's the voice in the back of my head saying....So, like - do you know her?

I then correct what I am about to say and go - I really don't care for what she said - blah, blah, blah....or I don't agree with whatever the thing was.

Just makes me more conscious of what I say and why I say it.

November 6, 2001
3:29 pm
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Starbaby
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Ladeska--your first post about the pathological liars really hit home with me. Ouch! My daughter's father is like that and I NEVER saw it coming. Even when I went "undercover" to try and find out the truth, he would still lie when I had evidence in hand. That's the scary thing..they are so good at what they do that you can find yourself believing anything. Right now, I'm still dealing with a lot of things as a result of my finally "seeing the light." I now have to go back and face things that I previously let him talk me out of believing (like him cheating on me.) Even now, as I write that, I still am wanting to deny it because I let him talk me out of it for so long and now I feel like an ass.
On a good note, I do feel like I'm getting stronger, but am scared that I will meet another "liar" and not know!

November 6, 2001
3:54 pm
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Molly
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There is an entirely other approach here too. Growing up in a mess, say the alcoholic family, or the violent family, the child walks into the room, and knows instinctively that there is something going on, but every one says ugh no, nope everything is allright. It starts that distrust, where you start reading into things instead of face value, and that is what happens with liars. The gossip thing is something else entirely, infact, after just walking into my office for the first time in 5 weeks, it is amazing how much conversation is nothing but gossip. You walk up to the grocery counter, and what is in your face, gossip head lines. You watch TV, and what do you get, gossip stories, or stories to clear up the gossip. Its so evil. Yet here we are a society consumed with it. I couldn't believe my ears when good ole Bill got up there and said this isn't sex. We gave the world a view of how a pro dances his way around truth, a real jig he did, and just have to wonder how many others have tried to use the same defense? Sure wouldn't let a 6 year old get away with it, no mom I didn't steal the candy, I borrowed it.
All of the values all of the structure, all of the truths known, and perhaps why we are in the messes that we are in. Its real hard to find souls with integrity, and then you wonder, just because.

November 6, 2001
4:31 pm
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Ladeska
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Starbaby...you're not alone in this. I think anymore we praise liars in our society and don't even realize it for what it is. We say we honor - integrity, blah, blah, blah and yet we applaud - a good liar, one that gets away with it - like Clinton or O.J. I found it fascinating to see the people around me that defended him. I just sort of backed away from them and said to myself - thank you for letting me know - who - you are.

I think a large majority of our public officials are pathological liars, but we cut them a break - feel like someone has to do it, so if you have to lie in order to do whatever - hey, go ahead, just don't get caught and give us what we want in the process.

You see....liars always "make a deal" with you, either emotionally, financially, physically, etc. But, they do make a deal with you - however "covert" it may be. They give you something because you give them something.

That's why they don't feel like they owe you anything because - there was something unsaid that you agreed to....

That's the part that hurts and we have to come to terms with - is our responsibility in it all. Not to say that we saw the big picture, but to say that we saw glimpses of it and ignored the signs saying well....he's this and that or she's this and that so - it's okay..... they count on that, very heavily....

I can give you some rules of thumb if you'd like - about liars, just things to look for early on. I'll do that in the next message and will go ahead and release this one.

November 6, 2001
4:57 pm
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Ladeska
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Liars find out all about you as soon as possible. They are predators and want to get close to you as quick as they can with as little effort possible.

Because we like and are attracted to "charming" people - they will try and find out from you and conversation - what you like - so they can be it.

Whatever you don't like - they become staunch advocates against and whatever you do like - oh my God, so do they.

So, they are great mimickers and bull shitters. They get you to open up very quickly and start composing a file on you.

They target needy people, maybe not needy in one sense, but needy in another and then they go about - meeting that need....

They won't be accountable for anything. Even if they say they are sorry - it's only words, with no actions that are sincere attached. Ini fact, they will usually shower you with showy actions - rather than a really sincere - I am sorry because this and that. But, flowers, cards, candy, nice dinners, wonderful lovemaking, flattery, etc. - works wonders, doesn't it?

They like to keep you separate from people who would be able to help you think clearly or would be able to give you conflicting information about them, so they tend to guard you....all under the guise of - I wuv you so much I can't stand for you to be outa my sight. (yeah, right)

Liars don't have good reasons for their lies all the time. Alot of them just like to lie for the sake of doing it. Their lies can be so minute that you say to yourself - Good Grief - why lie when the truth would have been better?

But it wouldn't be better to a liar because they get a charge out of fooling people. Makes them feel big and powerful. I told one and you freaking believed it! See what I did?? It's a power trip.

Basically, a pathological liar's profile is pretty much a narcissist's profile. Everything is about them and for them. Everyone is useful to them so all is considered a playing field whereby they can test their skills of deception and come away feeling exhilirated that once again - they fooled everyone, if not forever - for a time....

Do they always get something for their efforts? No, not always, like I said before - sometimes the game is played just for the sheer satisfaction of the con itself.

I think we don't call it what it is when we see it staring us in the face because we want to cling to our idealism and say - Oh My God, people can't be that wicked and if they are - they are few and far between...

Not so....it's become quite the skill and quite the pass time.

November 6, 2001
5:00 pm
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Ladeska
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another thing....is if you join up with them in some way - that means you now have "your name" on whatever just by association. Your good name, your good credit, your good reputation....so they count largely on that "stake" in your life and upon you to try and hold it steady. Wherein - they don't care about the same things you do....they don't care of people don't think well of them sincerely or that they have a code of honor. It means nothing to them but they know it means.....something to you - therefore - they've got you and you don't turn loose for a long, long time because you don't want to have that bad mark on you for being attached to something this nasty.

But, in all reality - we'd be alot better off if we'd just take the knife to the strings real early on when we see b.s. flying and be done with it. Instead we hang on and hang on because our pride wants to be right about - what we thought we saw in them. They know this about us.....and they play it all the way to the wall...

November 6, 2001
6:15 pm
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Ladeska
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...that posting didn't read well in the first paragraph...oh well, hope it makes some kind of sense. Meant to convey that they don't have a code of honor but will use "yours" against you because you have put your seal of approval on them in the beginning so they hold you to it.....YOU are the bad guy if you turn around and withdraw it. Get it? They know your good word - is your good word and that you don't abandon or reject people "you love"... That's where we go wrong is putting the seal of approval on someone without due diligence in checking them out and waiting for the facade to fall - if there is a facade. It's actually wise to do this to anyone that's going to be in an intimate circle with you. You never, never, never let anyone in as quick as a charmer and a liar want you to... That is a huge red flag in and of itself.. Back up and look again and keep looking. You don't become bosom buddies and/or soulmates all in one night.

November 6, 2001
7:21 pm
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artist 2
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I honestly can't say what I know about what's going on here. I can't see if he's really an OK guy and I've been completely paranoid, or if he is really a liat like i "sense" he is. My personality is three parts: the logic thinking head, the tender loving heart, and the warrior ego.

head says: i don't know, be sure to weigh the evidence.

heart says: i love him so much, i'd forgive the worst.

ego says: fu**ing liar. I know he did it.

So, with this twisted personality, who's to say?

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