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Narcissists
July 4, 2002
1:36 pm
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Ladeska
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BRAVO! So, there you have it in black and white, but "who" will read and apply it or want to believe it's truth? And it's not just men who are psychopaths. Some of the more crafty ones - are women. They get away with what they do with ease because no one really wants to see a woman in this light. Ann Rule's books give some really good true stories about women of this caliber.

Trouble is, we the sheep, just don't want to stop grazing or sleeping long enough to pay attention to what a predator looks like, smells like, acts like. Therefore - we will always be "food" if that remains status quo.

It doesn't mean that we become paranoid, but it does require that we have an educated wisdom about this jungle we are in. We are only now beginning to really study psychopathic behavior but it's been in existence since time began. Look at any country and straight at it's most horrible rulers, where the rivers of blood run high - and perched high atop it all is a psychopath and perched below him or her are the people who lifted them up to the position....so we are not innocent here.

Psychopaths know what you want, what pretty trinket or whatever kind of temporary bliss they can give you to stroke your ego and they deliver....for a season. We are extremely vulnerable to that kind of stroking, is almost like a romantic dance and yet is always a deadly one.

The one thing that every human being on the planet has that is the very best and most effective weapon against psychopaths is - your own instinctual primal radar that you were born with. Things start crowding that over time, we snuff it out, don't listen to it, don't train it to be ever sharper and we become victims.

But, it's there.......we all have it. We all have the ability to smell things in people, to size them up in about 5 seconds flat. Our radar, when sharp, scans them in about a hundred different ways. But, if we've been brainwashed and conditioned early in our lives, and our symbols of what is good and trustworthy has something else plastered over it - then we will be attracted to the same thing that hurt us originally. The labels confuse us and it has a familiar scent that we think - is okay for us to go toward. Thus the trap and slam goes the door. Gotcha. The familiar, with it's phonie label, is most often a baited hook. Psychopaths know how to read - what you are blind to and drawn to and they work from that angle, based on your smell and what you tell them about yourself because you believe their charm and trust them with secrets. These secrets end up being a profile of information they get from you and is ultimately used against you.

We have to train our sniffer, be aware of what we are drawn to and why and rip off the label and look at what's inside, label it correctly and then adjust our own radar. The vibes "we give off" because of - this adjustment - tells many who are approaching - don't mess with this one - they "know you".... Consequently, the go find an easier target. In as much as you can smell people, they can smell you as well.

So many people say to me, regarding abuse, that they can't remember visually what happened to them as children and I say to them...."and yet, you have sat here and told me time after time, what you have seen and recorded with your sense of smell, hearing, touch, feeling in your gut, thoughts that have no picture, etc...and you so easily discount that all because - you don't have a visual."

We not only take in things on many levels, but we Record Them On Many Levels as well. Visual memory is only "one" way of remembering. When something tragic happens to us - things get fragmented and stored in different places. Sometimes we completely dismiss the "find" when it slaps us in the face. Large pieces of information are thrown away as we look for the T.V. screen. Not wise..

Our "gut reaction" to something - is far more important than - the visual. Sometimes blind people Perceive much more about their surroundings and the people standing in front of them than we, the "seeing" people do. I leave all who read this with one question..."why is that?"

July 5, 2002
9:25 am
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tripleshy
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BlondieNYC

Do male and female psychopaths ever get together? and If they do what type of a relation ship do they have? Do you know?

July 5, 2002
9:52 am
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Cici
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Bonnie and Clyde. They feed off each other.

Psychopaths exhibit what we call "hypernormalcy" many times - the kind of guy you think "he's so friggin' normal, it's almost WEIRD"

ANyway, Blondie, I don't know about women being universally nurturing and creative. I think the way women express aggression is more subtle, but every BIT as destructive as men.

July 5, 2002
11:43 am
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nikka
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I am with you on that score, Cici. Just as men tend to process emotion through the amygdala and other more primary areas of the brain and women tend to process emotion through the speech centers, our bullshit is processed and exhibited differently as well. -- We are not universally nurturing, although it is always a comfort for most of us to be able to validate ourselves by pointing out other's shortcomings.

July 5, 2002
11:50 am
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Ladeska
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Male and female psychopaths do get together or a time. One has to be more dominant than the other one, or as Cici states, more subtle in her craft. If you really want to see that one in action - read Ann Rule's book - All She Ever Wanted. She has other ones, too, that will just chill you right to the bone. I have been equally hurt by men and women of this caliber, so it's not just men by any long shot. Women just don't get nailed for it as much, we want to "forgive" them....therefore, we deny, justify and let them fly by.

The one really prominent feature about psychopaths that stick out in my mind is that - we expect them to have feelings and the don't. So, every time we deal with them on that level, we get sucked in even farther. For whatever reason, that element in them is just gone. They won't be having empathy, that's for sure. Very cold-blooded in what they do. And like one Canadian man and woman who were a team - and basically lured young women into sex and then brutally tortured, raped and murdered them, including one which was her younger sister....the woman, who will be out of prison soon - was actually okay enough to get married and party on - right after they had murdered her sister. And to watch her - it was like nothing had ever happened. They killed so many women. The whole thing was just sick. But, what makes people so blind is - their ability to be charming and nice and carry-on like these awful acts were nothing more than taking a walk in the park.

Ted Bundy was a chilling example of this. A nicer kind of guy, you just couldn't find. The judge even liked him. Scary.... And we'd better be educating ourselves about all this because we are breeding more and more psychopaths in our society. There are more broken homes, one parent homes and just a very dysfunctional embryo for young minds to develop in. Something wicked this way comes - is definitely happening. But what really troubles me is - I see alot of people actually thinking this is cool, that people can lie so well, be so out for themselves, hurt people and not get caught. Otherwise, these people would not get away with half of what they do. They get the red carpet by people that would surprise you. There is a whole sick segment of us that are enablers to psychopaths and in my mind - aren't much different.

July 5, 2002
12:21 pm
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gingerleigh
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Boy, I honestly believe that my ex is a psychopath. But I question myself on that one sometimes, wondering if he really was a sick evil person or if we just "weren't compatible". Whenever I think of him, it's like this dark cloud of evil ooze that I see, just all around nothing good. Most people that I know I can usually look inside and see the little boy or little girl in there who just wants to be good, despite their actions or confusions as an adult. But with the ex, nothing, none of that, never ever saw the little boy in there. Does that mean he really was a psychopath, or am I just sour grapes over the whole thing because I lost my time, money and self respect during the years I spent with him? It sure does make it easier in my head to just say "well that relationship failed because he was a sick f*ck" and throw the blame back on him. Is that OK? It seems like saying that he really is an OK person and that the relationship wasn't right just takes too much energy. I'd much rather just expend no energy and continue the write off as a miserable mistake on my part of trying to socialize a psychopath. Besides, saying that he isn't worth the ground I spit upon makes me feel better about myself. Does that make me a psychopath too????

OK, maybe it is time to lay off the coffee.

July 5, 2002
12:37 pm
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Cici
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For the Ted Bundy story, check out

http://www.crimelibrary.com/bu...../early.htm

He had a bizarre life, but one not uncommon (like, raised by grandparents and told that his mom was actually his "sister" - only found out in college!) But you can see cold, calculating revenge. It started out in his *romantic relationships* - he actually revived an old flame just to completely destroy his ex-lover! Sound familiar?

Crimelibrary.com has some interesting stories.

But he wasn't a narcissist. He had antisocial personality disorder.

I read an article saying that there's a link between childhood IED (intermittent explosive disorder), ADHD and adult antisocial personality disorder. Hmmmmm.....

July 5, 2002
1:10 pm
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silence
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Yeah... but isn't Jack known as a crazy bastard out there? I've heard the phrase, "That's just Jack being Jack" from lots of entertainment places. Doesn't that kind of thinking neglect the fact that the man is pretty much allowed to do whatever he wants and nobody steps up to help him? You have to admit that we accept some people to be psychotic and we wouldn't want them to be any differently.

July 5, 2002
1:54 pm
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Cici
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haha - yeah, FL seems to be a serial killer haven. We had Danny Rolling in my town when I was like 12. You can imagine - I guess it was kinda like the summer of sam, except without the power outage (eeeek!). I remember there was a curfew and my Mom wouldn't let me go anywhere or to anyone's house until he was caught.

Ahyway, re: psychopathology:

Emil Kraeplin, in his Textbook of Psychiatry (1913) divided psychopaths into seven different categories or subtypes including:

"...the excitable, the unstable, the impulsive, the eccentric, the liars and swindlers, the antisocial, and the quarrelsome. All represented constitutional predispositions. Not to be outdone, Kahn (1931) suggested 16 trait-syndromes for the psychopath. In 1930, G. E. Partridge considered psychopathy an exclusively social, rather than mental, maladjustment and proposed the term sociopath to replace psychopath (Pennington, 1966)" (Bartol, 1995, p.58).

Nevertheless, the separate descriptors do exist and actually have a slight amount of variance between them: the term psychopath is usually used to describe a mental illness; the sociopath is an individual who habitually violates known norms and laws (Bartol, 1995).

So he was a psychopath until he actually began habitually committing crimes. I was used to the forensic terminology.

And silence - I can attest to the fact that although society can and does tolerate and lift up on the wings of success those with narcissistic personality disorder (actors, scientists, surgeons), true psychopaths are rarely able to funciton long in social settings. We had bunches of them locked away for life at the mental hospital.

Psychotic disorders include severe mental disorders which are characterized by extreme impairment of a person's ability to think clearly, respond emotionally, communicate effectively, understand reality, and behave appropriately. Psychotic symptoms can be seen in teenagers with a number of serious mental illnesses, such as depression, bi-polar disorder (manic-depression), schizophrenia, and with some forms of drug and alcohol abuse. Psychotic symptoms interfere with a person’s daily functioning and can be quite debilitating. Psychotic symptoms include delusions and hallucinations.

Delusion: A false, fixed, odd, or unusual belief firmly held by the patient. The belief is not ordinarily accepted by other members of the person’s culture or subculture. There are delusions of paranoia (others are plotting against them), grandiose delusions (exaggerated ideas of one's importance or identity), and somatic delusions (a healthy person believing that he/she has a terminal illness).

Hallucination: A sensory perception (seeing, hearing, feeling, and smelling) in the absence of an outside stimulus. For example, with auditory hallucinations, the person hears voices when there is no one talking.

I think it's a question of emotional resilience and severity of exposure. Like with PTSD - some people can live extremely stressful lives and be almost psychologically balanced. Others experience few traumas and become severely impaired. It's always a coin toss when it comes to psychopathology.

July 5, 2002
5:03 pm
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Cici
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You're right blondie - there's something about Christopher Walkin that is incredibly scarey/sexy! AUGH!

I dunno - in some ways women acting as psychopaths is almost repellant. In the wild, females will kill and eat their children for coldly rational reasons - they are too old or too sick to care for them, if they themselves are ill.

Here's an interesting article on neural and sensory facotrs in maternal behavior:

http://salmon.psy.plym.ac.uk/y.....aviour.htm

Weird, wild stuff. I'm not as good at the marriage and family counseling - that takes a light touch. But with clinical stuff, I can spout it like born-agains spout scripture! Praise the DSM! I've found psych and have been saved! Halleluja!

July 5, 2002
7:19 pm
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SuzyQ
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Wow!
Cici is a textbook and Blondie is a damned dissertation! I've been in this business awhile and I still don't feel I understand it. With clients of course, I'm more accepting.

However, on a personal level....I've dated a lot of guys who have had some bad qualities, but I have ended it b4 finding out if they were psychopaths or not.

I did have a roommate who has some of these qualities. She is BPD w/ some Narcissistic personality d/o issues. After she moved out, I saw the movie "Single White Female". How scary is that??? OK, my situation wasn't quite that bad, but it really gave me the creeps. YIKES!

July 6, 2002
1:28 am
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ranmar1
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Boy, now I have a new term for my ex.
Besides already knowing she is Narcissistic, she truly fits the mold of a psychopath as well. Thanks.......

July 6, 2002
12:17 pm
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gingerleigh
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Well Blondie, maybe you are getting burned out. Who wouldn't? Jeez, even I get burned out just reading these threads let alone dealing with it in person. Every week there's one more new person who can't seem to break out of an abusive situation, some take the advice and get out, but far more either fight back more harshly against the loving advice, or say yes yes, then pop back on two weeks later to say that they've reconciled with their abusers. It's enough to make anyone pounce on a new person, after all, we are all human and get tired and frustrated.

Working at ToysRUs might not be such a bad idea Blondie...most of the kids who come in there are spoiled brats who need to have some fear put into them "Mommy I want this gimme that gimme gimme gimmeeeeee!!!!" Not the kids' fault though... hm, maybe it's the parents you should try to scare! I know there are many schools of thought on how to discipline kids, and I hear "hitting a child is NEVER NEVER OK", but if I see one more mother stooped over talking to little Jimmy, a 4 year old who is running in circles screaming his head off at WalMart saying "Now Jimmy, don't you understand that running around and yelling is not the proper way to behave?" I'm going to pull Mommy's pants down and spank her right there in the middle of housewares. I don't care what the therapists and child psychologists say, you cannot reason with a 4 year old like that. And if this new style of parenting is supposed to be so effective, maybe one of those people could tell me why kids from "normal" homes are going to school with guns. Betcha their parents tried to reason with them at 4 years old too.. You know what that teaches them at 4 years old? "Hey, if I break the rules, all I get is talked to, and nothing happens. I can break any rule I want and NOTHING HAPPENS!!! Kewl..."

Not sure where all that came from.

Anyway, Blondie, you're all right, you may be burning out, but who the hell can blame ya? *hug*

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