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my wife still needs space
July 25, 2001
11:10 pm
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hollowman
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Well, I don't know what happened to all of the old threads but I haven't written in a few weeks. Things are getting a little better but my wife is still "out of love" with me. I can go a few days being strong but I am too needy to last much longer. We went out to dinner last week without the kids and it was like a "bad date" in high school. It seems that all we could talk about was the kids and I guess that is all we have in common anymore. There was a lot of silence between us. I really hurt inside for the old days. For those of you who do not know, my wife of 15 years told me that I was smothering her and she needs space. I have never abused her or touched another woman since we met in college. I love her dearly and want to spend the rest of my life with her, but I cannot go on like it is now. It is like the flame is completely out. We have 3 kids and I do not want to put them through a divorce. I could not sit back and watch her "grieve" for months like she has watched me, it seems not to bother her much. She swears there is no other man in her life, if there was it would make it so simple to leave. All advice is welcome!

July 26, 2001
12:49 am
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gingerleigh
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Hi Hollowman,

I hurt and ache for you, I really do. Many of us on this site can certainly relate.

I remember your post, but cannot remember the details... have you started any sort of couple's counseling? I myself have been on both sides of the issue, where I fell out of love and where I was fallen out of love with. Both are awful situations. When you fall out of love, you question yourself, what is wrong, why can't you put your finger on how to make things right again. And when you are the one who is "rejected", how do you deal with that? It's like all of your control has been stripped away and you have no more control over anything in the relationship, you simply have to wait for your partner to "come around". It's a horrible feeling.

Have you sought some marriage counseling? Is she willing to try to work things out, or has she truly checked out? Is she asking for a separation? Has anything changed significantly in your lives, like job changes, travel, moving, different schedules at home, new friends for either of you, anything you can think of that might have triggered this change?

Also, I hate to bring this up, but several people close to me have had this issue with their wives and husbands, where the partner mentally checks out because the other partner spent years neglecting them and finally they have had enough. The neglected partner turns off their feelings finally, and suddenly the other partner says "huh? what happened? she was fine yesterday, now she isn't in love with me anymore? yesterday it was OK that I traveled 20 days a month, but now it's not.... what?" Could this be possible in your relationship with your wife?

July 26, 2001
7:43 am
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hollowman
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She is in her mid 30's and I have wondered if this is a crisis of some kind . I have asked her about counseling and she says she is not going that rout. We have had some big fights and I feel that there could be no question as to how each of us feel. In the last year she has lost some weight, but I feel that is because where she works they have hired some women younger than her and she is not the youngest anymore. She has told me (in the middle of a fight) that she would leave me but she does not want to raise the kids by herself, and she could not afford to leave me. This really makes me feel good. ha! I may not have been the most affectionate person in the world but there could be no way that she ever questioned my love and devotion to her. I came from a family that did not hug or tell each other that you loved one another. But I told her this all of the time. I don't know how long I can go on with her not showing me any affection and acting like she doesn't care. I hate it! Sometimes I think the best solution is to get ourselves in a financial situation so we could afford to split, and maybe this should be our goal. All advice appreciated!

July 26, 2001
12:51 pm
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Molly
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Divorce is no good, and if there is some way, you can get into counseling, or become active in a spiritual program, church temple, something that will help to support marriage. You know this is the phase where all you do have in common is the kids, and bills. is there a way, you can create some routine of fun, a weekly picnic, a weekly date, try the movies, then out to dinner, you can talk about the movie, join a family club, where you can go on Saturedays and meet other people with families?
Social activities, and a social circle can help take some of the pressure off. Make a family garden, just trying to think of things you can do to bring you together. Did you get Dr. Phils book????? You say your needy, and I understand that, what about a dog, trust me she will get jelous, about all the time and attention it gets, but again, something family oriented, of course it could be something to fight over.

July 26, 2001
7:18 pm
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hollowman
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I'm going to try to be stronger and ignore her a little more, but I usually can only do this for a few days. When I try this I always break down and ask her how she is feeling about us, and it ends in a fight. What is Dr. Phils book? I need to read it. Thanks for the advice!

July 26, 2001
7:22 pm
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Molly
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Just be busy, make projects, inquire here we won't fight with you, and you can get it out of your system. Its Relational Rescue by Dr. Phil McGraw, it takes the focus off the other person, and makes you look at you, there are some writing exercises, and questions, it would be nice if she would do it with you, but this is real life and not TV. Hang in there, it takes two to fight, and if you don't join in, then she must go to her room until she can play nice šŸ™‚
If only we could do that.

July 26, 2001
10:38 pm
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ranmar1
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Hollowman,
I remember your previous postings. I too have experienced what you are going through. Unfortunately, we are at the end of our "journey" leading to a separation or divorce. I too, was married for 15 yrs, never once did anything I regretted in our marriage, have two daughters, 14/10.She "fell out of love" and specifically said she didn't want to be married anymore. As I look back, I see some underlying traits and warning signs that were always there, it's just that I chose to ignore them. I compromised and felt her actions were normal. Is there anything you really don't think is proper as far as behavior or attitudes, but have compromised to avoid fighting? I did this and it is now blowing up in my face. Be strong, stand up for your principles, your values and your morals. Your kids will learn by role modeling, what is proper and what is not acceptable.
Good luck.
Ranmar

July 30, 2001
12:13 pm
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inlawblues
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Hollowman, I have some understanding of your situation. I have dealt with a simlar problem within the last six months? If she dosen't love me should I divorce her? What about my children? Will she change? My wife acted quite normal around our children but treated me like the plague when we were alone. I decided that my happiness was determined by me. So I have tried to include her in everything we do but if she is not interested I just leave her home. I take the kids, give her space, and have improved the relationship with my children. It took several months but she finally has changed her attitude and we are moving in the right direction again. I will not allow her cyclical moods to affect me the way they used to. I know it's difficult but try to find some other things to occupy your time and thoughts but be available to her when she is ready. I hope she wakes up before it's too late.

July 30, 2001
5:55 pm
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Hollowman,

I went through a crisis in my mid-thirties. I began working out, became really buff, became vegitarian, spiritual, etc.... It was the beginning of my life and self-discovery.

I left my husband because he didn't keep up with me. I wish to the heavens he had. He went to a woman who was old fashioned, undemanding, unchallenging, and takes care of him like mommy did.

You don't sound like that type. My advice to you would be to stick with her. Help and support her in her new endeavors. Keep up with what she is doing and be her friend. Stay in the picture by helping her. Pay for her classes, take her to the ends of the earth.

And don't give up!

August 1, 2001
2:49 pm
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hollowman
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Thanks to inlawblues and listen! For the last few weeks I have really worked hard to back off a little. She went out to eat with the people she works with and I did not give her any grief about it. In the past I would have wondered why she did not ask me to go also? We both are good people and keep our kids in mind with all decisions. I guess the bottom line is that since she changed so drastically a few months ago my first reaction was that she had met some other man. She assures me that that is not the case, but there has been some strange behavior on her part. Such as me walking in unexpectedly and her being on the phone and hanging up immediately and saying that she was talking to someone at work, in the past she never hastily hung up and I never cared that she was on the phone. I guess I should have took the phone and seen who it was, but I am not that type. Here is the corker, for the last six months someone she works with has sent a letter to let me know that she has been fooling around on me, but I did not fly off of the handle because there has been some friction between her and some of her coworkers, I have been open with her about the letters and she swears that it is someone trying to cause her grief at home. I guess that is the reason for my suspicion and pain, I love her enough to get through this possibly even if she has been untrue to me, but all I want from her is the truth, one way or the other. Well, I guess I will go for now. All advice apperciated!

August 1, 2001
3:42 pm
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Listen...
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Hey Hollow,

You are not alone. Under another name (which doesn't fit my current issue) I explained a problem with a coworker telling me my boyfriend was seen sitting with another woman in a restaurant when he was supposedly working. I asked him about it and he denied it so hard that i was even more suspecious... I still don't believe him completely to this day. But, if he lied, then it was out of fear. i have been really untrusting and suspecious and he knows it. he was trying to protect his interest in the relaitonship and i'm glad he did. still didn't appreciate the lie though. we are still together and things are getting better every day. trust is continuing to build, albiet slowly. i have more faith in him now despite the early snaphoos.

August 1, 2001
6:42 pm
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Molly
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next time that happens, *69 the call, peace of mind is worth the dollar, and what ever she has to say about it. Since she is aware of the letters, how could she blame you? its a horrible place to be, with out trust, and it sure sounds fishy. We don't usually look for evil, but then again, we can't ignore it. Did she usually invite you to go to these after work things? next time show up even if you are uninvited, just explain that you love this woman so much can't stand to be away from her, get the sitter and get peace of mind. Nip it in the bud before you go crazy, and you will, if you keep this up. It is her responsibility as your wife to work with you on this, and going out with the gang, doesn't help.

August 1, 2001
10:47 pm
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ranmar1
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Hollow,
Wow, this is a replay of my events. My soon to be X played all of the same games, to the point that I compromised and said all of her outings were okay, without me or our kids. Well, guess what? We are in the process of separating because her "just male friend" who I find out has been waiting for her for over a year, is more important as "a friend" than our 20 yr relationship, 15 yr. marriage with two girls. Do me a favor, look up on yahoo, the web site, http://www.n-courage.net
Look up Narcisssism, it's meaning, it's characteristics, and see if she fits within these parameters. Hopefully not. If so, read how to cure it, run away as fast as possible before she sucks all of your own life and identity away, or learn that you have to tolerate their behavior.
Good luck and keep us posted.

August 25, 2001
4:03 pm
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hollowman
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I caught her, I caught her, I caught her. Then I called his wife and had him thrown out. She has had "feelings" for a man she works with for 9 months, and has been calling him and meeting him. When we went on vacation she was going to run in the morning and calling him, I watched her calling cards to find out. Now we are going through hell trying to figure out what to do. He is back at home after a few days with his wife. She says I can never trust her again but I really honor my vows and I believe I can if she will only start to act like she cares about being with me. My kids know something is up and are starting to act really upset. All advice appreciated!

August 26, 2001
12:52 pm
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gingerleigh
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Oh jeez Hollowman, I am SO sorry. I was keeping my fingers crossed that this was not the case. But it seems like this is so common. It happened to me. It's happened to other people on this site, both men and women. There are reams and reams of threads here about this very thing.

(Side note: how come it's the people who are getting cheated on that are here looking for help rather than the cheaters themselves?)

Anyway, other than a huge piece of empathy and sympathy and volumes of anecdotes about what I did to heal, I can't offer anything else, but I bet that someone else here can. I wish that I could say "get help together and you guys can work it out" but I can't speak to that from my own experience. My ex-husband wasn't willing to work things through with me, which was a blessing in disguise given where I am today and where he isn't. That's part of the reason why I don't want to go into the tale now, because it's not a particularly rosy picture of how two married people can work together through something like this and come out stronger than before. It just didn't happen for me, but that's not to say that it never happens.

For the kids... I'm not sure how much it is wise to tell them, or even if it is wise to say something to them like "Mom and Dad are working on some tough problems right now, and I know that things are a little tense..." but definitely tell them that you both still love them very much and that *that* will never change. Make sure that both you and your wife spend time with them, and put aside whatever nasty looks you might give to eachother in favor of focusing your love and attention on the kids during those times.

Is she willing to go to marriage counseling and throw everything out on the table? That's a start. Does she want to save the marriage?

August 27, 2001
11:58 am
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Ladeska
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Regardless of what happens, always know that you are never the fool for loving, for honoring, for respecting... The only fool - is the one who cannot receive it.

I read your threads...and pretty much knew there was someone else, but didn't want to say. Some people don't want intimacy....they fight against it. They have problems inside themselves and seek to medicate it with a quick fix. Such is the disease in our society.

But, one word of advice to you...have a limit as to how much you will take here. She's been really, really deceitful here. Lied through her teeth. I guess I take a real hard line on stuff like that anymore. We forgive too much that is really - huge and shouldn't be so easily stepped over. Is she sorry because she's sorry or sorry because - she got caught? Major question.

You may forgive her - but chances are real good - she won't forgive herself and will take it out on you and the children. It's called - scapegoating and it's "real nasty". She saw your pain and she kept right on going.... Big warning signal to you regarding her character.

August 27, 2001
6:57 pm
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Molly
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How is it going? This is going to take lots of time to heal. The circle of trust has been broken, no longer thoughts or maybe's just discovery. The hard part is going to be to keep the faith, keep the love, keep the vows. It will be interesting to watch how she processes her shame, guilt, and those feelings that will surface, like the youll never be able to trust me again. for this particular situation, if there is church counseling available, or spiritual based counseling I would recommend that first, it will reinforce your intent.
Not all psychologists will take the commitment to heart. Keep a close eye on the kids for signs of acting out, and be on top of them with the love as previously recommended. Bless you, and she is lucky to have you. don't hesitate to practice tough love for a while she has earned it.

August 28, 2001
5:39 pm
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strengthcourageandwisdom
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Oh God,
What is happening? I open this website today, and saw a message about someone wanting someone who doesn't want them. And I read it, (and commented) You see I am having the same problem with a man I care about. Two years ago he was my angel , said all the right things, did all the right things, it was like some kind of soul mate. But that is another issue.
PROBLEM- I AM MARRIED 15 years 3 kids. My husband found out from an email, I sent a friend, about how difficult it was going to be to let him go. He had previously actually "caught
me" by listening in on a phone call, but I had lied my way out of that. So when I started reading you thread, I knew instantly that she had FOUND someone else, and I was just going to read to the end , and see if you really wanted to know that. Well now you know.
I will tell you this, my husband has been the same way you are, he was devastated , but wanted to stay married. He is a good man, in many ways. It has been close to two years since he found out. I am not with the other guy, and for the same amount of time. But I have to tell you, right now, you are just a nuisance to her. Something standing between her and her "TRUE LOVE". She is out of control. And continuing to try to be good to her, and "WORK-IT-OUT" only annoys her .
Why because it is a mirror to her, of what she IS NOT doing.
It is a reminder, to her of the vows she made. And if she loves her kids like I love mine, she is now trying to convince herself that they will be OK with UGLY MESS of DIVORCE.
I disagree that she will "scapegoat" the kids. But I know the more you try to hold on , the more she will resent you.
Don't talk DIVORCE, talk seperation, let her go found out that her ROMEO is not what she thinks. While she is out there decide if you really want HER back. Really, want her back, can you still lay with her, with what you know. Will every song "your cheating heart":-) cause World War III, will you
always check on her when she says she went to the store, check caller ID, every time she has been on phone. Do you want to live like that? Can you both live like that? Will you forever be beating her over the head with what she has done? Those are the things you need to work out , while she is working her stuff out. If she doesn't come back , she wouldn't have stayed, anyway. And you can use the time on yourself. By the way , THE KIDS KNOW! Just in case you think
they don't. They don't know what, but they know something is wrong, start trying to focus on their needs.
And in case you are wondering , My Romeo, says
he still loves me, but will only talk to me if I leave my husband. Sounds like disinterest, to me, my wisdom tells me he has moved on, my FEELINGS say, "HE WANTS ME SO BAD".
Lord help me to listen to Wisdom.

August 28, 2001
8:40 pm
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Alena
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Hollowman, I just wanted to add a little bit. I have two sets of married friends who have, believe it or not, survived their own cheating...and lived to tell. In both instances it was the guy who cheated,just once. They worked hard at what was wrong and they were in their thirties. It's been about 15 years, they're still going...it can be done, trust can be regained....it just takes TWO....but if she wants to be trusted again, she can do it. Good luck

August 30, 2001
2:00 am
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ranmar1
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Hollowman,
OOOPS, it happened again. She got caught. And now what, anger, denial, shock on your part. This is all natural. Is she really wanting to work on it? Or is she living a fantasy, and just putting it on hold? Believe me, I'm going through where you are now, only I'm much further down the road. The other difference is that she sounds like she may be willing to "fix" the situation. My wacko already had everything concluded in her own mind, and now we are going to separate on Oct.1st. She doesn't have a clue what she is doing to the kids, myself or even to herself. Does yours know how it has affected everyone? The trust, respect, integrity and commitment have all been compromised. What will it take for you to either forgive and stay, or forgive and move on? Only you can set the limit for yourself. Don't let anyone tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing now, because they don't have to live with you and go through the consequences. Advice is good, however, only you can decide. As I said before, trust your instincts first, they usually are correct. If I would have done that, I could have put this whole episode of mine on a faster track and not have compromised my self into beleiving everything was okay.......Good luck and keep posting. It truly does help to post and vent here. I know, I've been helped by everyone here since January.........Randy

August 30, 2001
2:53 am
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scherza
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I am a woman entering my 40's that is going through the "crisis" described so eloquently here, myself.

Without counselling assistance, I did a deep self inventory after my indiscretions were revealed to my husband. When I saw how hurt he was, it broke my heart. I had to understand why I needed this "space" I seemed to crave.

I learned that the biggest thing I needed to resolve was a long term childhood-based sense of expendability. Growing up, I was treated in a way that repeatedly made me feel expendable. Even my society seemed to make me, my time, my space, and my love and energy expendable because of my gender. Also, I had no sense of family. I met whole groups of family for the first time at a funeral a few years ago; haven't heard from them since. My family of origin are all deceased due to "life style issues." I'll spare you the very long and sordid story, but trust me on this one: it never occurred to me that by internalizing the attitude of being expendable, I regarded everything in my life as such and took a lot for granted.

In my situation, my husband stood by me. I got a sense family and of not being easily discarded from this experience. This realisation came from within me, though. No one shook me and told me what a fool I was being. No one could. This had to come from me. I gained a greater closeness than I have ever had in my life with anyone. No one has to be perfect, but we love each other very much.

This can be very frightening at times for me. I need to feel special/magical/powerful. Letting someone in close means that I have to give some of that up.

It also helps that my husband is very stable even when I am not. We are opposites in lots of ways. He stabilizes me and I shake him up. His creativity has soared...and so has mine...but in different ways...and our teenager enjoys the interaction.

August 30, 2001
1:00 pm
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Molly
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I don't have anything to add, except how profound all of the postings are.
These life experiences and lessons, wow!!! Its almost like a foundation of lessons for the handbook of marriage. previews of hindsights, what we have learned and now know.

Stregnthcourageand wisdom the posting was right on, and heard her pain real loud, I don't think he is disinterested, perhaps had a moral attack, just my 2 cents. When we get right down to it, no one wants to be responsible for destroying a family, and when we get hell bent on a self centered tangent, there is only tunnel vision, and its all about me, me , me !!!! We can't see, hear, or acknowledge anything else, like Ranmar's wako right now.
That is why I celebrate this sight so, like where else can we get this support, this insight, these lessons, that I guess is part of being a doggone human.
I guess that is why sometimes, I tend to go back to a spiritual approach, screw all of the political correctness, the do your own thing mentality. Free will isn't all its cracked up to be sometimes, and with out some sort of structure, some sort of game rules, that we were supposed to play by,commit to, we are all just standing out in the field wounded, confused players, wondering who's on first, or what next.
I just get so damn frustrated with all the pain, no controll, and no solutions to the epidemic.

August 30, 2001
5:38 pm
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ranmar1
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Molly,
You said it so well. Without structure, without boundaries, without any kind of self discipline, you have no direction, no self control, and no one to blame when you find yourself out there by yourself, except yourself.
Randy

August 30, 2001
8:15 pm
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Molly
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Thanks Randy, but its not always fair to blame your self, damn it, it takes two. Just like your situation, go figure, you have mentioned participation in your Temple, you both took vows, did you ever in your wildest dreams expect those vows, to be altered? No, so like where is commitment, integrity, and character?
What is with all of the pop psyche,stating life is short, and all those things that you said were commitments, can be, danced around when we get the urge to connect with the Earls of the world? I can say there is an reaction for every action, but give me a break. I use the 80's as a period of evolution, and the 90's for hindsight, when looking at life, but common folks, were in the new Milenium, when are we going to get it what works and what doesn't ? Ugh, I'm off the soap box now, I ugh ugh guess I was posessed or something.

August 30, 2001
10:20 pm
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Alena
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Okay Moll, slide over, I'm comin up...
šŸ™‚
Since we're on the subject....I hear what you're saying, and really, you are right, of course, what would be better than everyone living happily ever after? But even in the "old days", before MTV, before blatant porn, before women worked full time and left kids in daycare, before the 80's, not...every...married...couple..was...happy. Not every kid who grew up in an intact family grew up mentally healthy. And that's been my contention all along for years. I, me, personally, in my humble opinion, believe that more damage is done from a couple of unhappy people resenting each other on a daily basis and showing it to their young impressionable kids, and then often resenting those same kids, and on and on for the rest of their lives. Has there ever been a study done on the two options? Staying together unhappy, or divorcing and trying to be adults about it for the kids. It can be done in a healthy way, I think you mentioned someone before who is working it out just fine, visitation and all. So, what do you do if when you were young, you really did love this person?? but now you don't? What if you've changed, as I believe we all do, what if that person has changed? Okay, so you can go to counseling, IF you still love each other and have to work out problems, but,you still love each other, that's the key. What do you do if you don't love the other person anymore?? I can't blame someone for falling out of love. I blame someone for adultery of course. But if you are in a marriage, and life has just moved on and through the years, you find, you just don't love them, after a while of pretending, wouldn't the frustration get to you? Wouldn't you see others who are in love and think, what am I doing here?? I'm sorry I made these vows, I meant them then, what do I do now?? Pretend?? You better be a good actor for a very long time. So, that's my question to your really good scenario, what if the love is gone and you just can't get that back? It's not anyone's fault. You can't blame someone for falling out of love, can you? Sure, it's painful, for both I'm sure. But, I wouldn't want to live with someone who didn't love me and was faking it. So, what do you do?

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