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My daughter's mad! Or am I?
October 10, 2001
1:43 pm
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if_only
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Please help!

My daughter has been diagnosed as being serverly depressed for over a year only I didn't notice or take her to the doctors, now she has been diagnosed as having antisocial personality disorder I heard this is a psychopath or something. What is it?
I feel so guilty it's my fault she's like this because I never knew how un happy she was.

She's this cold manipulative evil lyeing person because of me.

What can I do? Can I help her? Can she get better? Is it my fault?

Thankyou for reading.

October 10, 2001
4:17 pm
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Please help me someone!
what can I do?
I need help
i feel so sad so useless please help me

October 10, 2001
4:34 pm
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Molly
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Hey mom, CHILL. Those are both very very loose diagnosis. Just about all of us can fit in those catagories on a given day.
How did you discover the shrink that you sent her too? How old is she? What does her teachers and counselors have to say about this? Give some more details about home, and daughter, you could be mad, or it could be your daughter, or both 🙂
Don't freak out yet, ok, take your time. There are lots of mom's on these threads that will help you figure it all out.
My daughters now 23,21 tossed that stuff in my lap almost 2 years ago now, out of the blue, I was the one that needed the straight jacket, due to all of the abuse that they had endured over the years. They had talked to a psych, that really had it in for mom's . Not that I haven't been psycho, or known a mom that wasn't psycho. Things are much better now, and never did get to wear that jacket. So, take some deep breaths, do some thinking, do some reasearch, meet with her counselor, and the truth will come out. But don't wear that your all the blame, don't forget the signifigant amount of influence her friends have had. So, pour a cup of tea, and calm down.

October 10, 2001
4:42 pm
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My daughter is 19 and saw a shrink after lots of crimanal charges put on her.

She doesnt feel anything she hurts everyone.
she pathologiaclly lies has no remorse or guilt.
i feel im loosing my baby to this illness what is it?
what us antisocial personality disorder i was told it meant she was a sociopath.
I'm loosing her will she go to hospital?

help me please?

October 10, 2001
7:30 pm
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Molly
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If she is 19 and has made CHOICES that have led her to this point, I am so sorry. Certainly this didn't happen over night. When did she start to act out? The important thing for you to know today is that she is of age, she made a choice to commit a criminal act. SHE, now facing the consequences is going to BLAME, sure there may have been some thing or some where along the line in the family dynamics that helped, but then again maybe not. SHE MADE A CHOICE. So, do some more deep breathing, and share some more of what you know.

October 11, 2001
1:16 pm
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Thankyou Molly.

But maybe it wasn't her choice to be crimanal maybe it was her illness that made her do these terrible things.
Could it be that? Was I a bad mother and made her get ill?
She started acting out from the age of 14 hurting people emotionally mostly.
I don't know why?
What is this illness she has can anyone tell me!!!

October 11, 2001
1:41 pm
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Ladeska
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....so....what was her life growing up? Just going to flat out ask you - is there any chance she was sexually molested by her father, a stepfather, one of your boyfriends, a relative, etc.? This is extremely rampant in society and people just don't want to face it. Not to say it's always the case - but alot of times - it is. The damage it does to a child is horrible and yeah - you might say when they grow up - they don't care much about many things because - the ones who were supposed to care about them and protect them - didn't.

Mothers, if they know or suspect, so often turn their heads, don't want to know, afraid they will lose their man, afraid they will lose face in the community and with family if they dare and say anything - so in turn - even though the mothers themselves may have been victim to this as well growing up....they may turn around and sacrifice their own daughters because deep down - they don't feel like they can live through the torment again - so let's just sweep it under the rug and blame it on something else. Alas, alas, I do not know what is wrong with my daughter!!

But, having no conscience is typical of someone who's been sexually abused. They were tormented by someone who had little conscience when they were hurting, so they learned to place no value on their pain or anyone else's and if guilt causes them pain - then it's to be ignored because - what does it matter anyway?

The standard was screwed up in the beginning with sexual abuse victims. The fairy tale picture of how it should be in Leave in to Beaver's household - but every day and every night's reality - dictated a whole different scenario. So, to say they get a little twisted in their thinking about alot of things - is putting it very lightly. Especially when they are just given some drugs, locked away and locked at like a speciman to be studied.

Maybe this isn't the case.... But, I've seen this scenario soo, so much...no one wants to really open up Pandora's box and will blame it on anything else and everyone else instead of really looking at the truth and at the root of it all.

October 11, 2001
1:46 pm
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if_only
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As I child I gave her everything she needed but she's still this way.
I dont think she was sexually abused.
What is antisocial personality dosorder?
Can it be cured, what cause it?
She has no consience that she shows when she hurts people.
I wish I knew what went on deep down in her head.

October 11, 2001
1:56 pm
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I have thought of something me and my husband argued all the time and it made her sad could this be a cause?

October 11, 2001
2:01 pm
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Ladeska
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Well....you kinda flew right by this rather fast.... why do you think she wasn't sexually abused? Have you ever asked her? Do you know the signs? Are you interested in at least investigating it as a possibility?

October 11, 2001
2:14 pm
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I don't think she was as there wasnt anone i think who would have.

I think it was mine and her fathers argueing.
what is her illness?

October 11, 2001
2:15 pm
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Molly
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Perhaps she excaped to the wrong type of fiends for support, during the down time. When parents fight the kids find a way to burry them selves. Its a snow like avalance sometimes, and they just get away from you. You can go to a book store, and find shelves of information, or on line, many support groups etc. If she started to act out around 14, and it wasn't caught or controlled, this is about the time it all catches up with them. I would highly recommend, a tough love group, as well as close work with her counselors. I wouldn't spend to much time looking backward, what is in the future is most important, especially since sexual abuse is not the issue. Just perhaps sounds, and pardon me if I hurt your feelings, like a spoiled child who took things into her own hands, and was possibly in to much controll, to make the right decisions, sometimes they really know how to work us, and we are clueless.
It happens, they slip and slip, and then all of their consequences end up in their face. She is going to have to do some growing up. Read about her diagnois, and I think youll understand. There could be clinical issues, but these labels also apply to spoiled brats who just don't care about what they do, or who they do it to becuase up till now they have never had to pay a concequence. the bright side I hope is that she is not addicted to crack, or heroin, or with child, which is way to frequent. I am sorry for your pain, but do some reading, and perhaps that will help to guide you, and understand your options better. One of the hardest things that may be before you is to not rescue her from this very hard and ugly lesson.

October 11, 2001
2:18 pm
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antisocial_sociopath
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Sorry i mean you and her fathers argueing, im trying to do work and im getting all confused with tenses sorry!

October 11, 2001
2:21 pm
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thats ok antisocial
i know what you mean.
my daughter has antisocail personality disorder to answer your question.
your right and observant in what you say that i dont think that there was anyone who would have abused her i think you got this from where i say i gave her everything.
anyway still is there anyone who knows what antisocial personality disorder is?

October 11, 2001
2:29 pm
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Ladeska
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You guys are cracking me up here. So how do you know that no one sexually abused her, just because "you" cannot think of anyone who did? This is precisely WHY people never get help. I can't believe my eyes when I see posts like this and I'm surprised to see Molly write that "since sexual abuse isn't an issue"...."who says?" Has anyone asked her? Has it been explored? Alot of the time is not uncommon that people don't know who's doing whatever because the nature of a pedophile is to "hide what they are doing". We really aren't this ignorant are we? Hate to keep beating the drum here, but the only reason I am is because the whole question is getting blown off like it couldn't possibly be a consideration. How so?

October 11, 2001
2:33 pm
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Ladeska
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I'm surprised that you don't already know what this behavior is if your daughter has been diagnosed with it. and just for an FYI - these are also present in sexual abuse victims.

Diagnostic Criteria

A. A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following criteria in the past 12 months, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:

Aggression to people and animals

B. often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others

C. often initiates physical fights

D. has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)

E. has been physically cruel to people

F. has been physically cruel to animals

G. has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)

H. has forced someone into sexual activity

Destruction of property

has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage

has deliberately destroyed others' property (other than by fire setting)

Deceitfulness or theft

has broken into someone else's house, building, or car

often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., "cons" others)

has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)

Serious violations of rules

often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years

has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)

is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years

D. The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

E. If the individual is age 18 years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial Personality Disorder.
Specify type based on age at onset:
Childhood-Onset Type: onset of at least one criterion characteristic of Conduct Disorder prior to age 10 years.

Adolescent-Onset Type: absence of any criteria characteristic of Conduct Disorder prior to age 10 years
Specify severity:

Mild: few if any conduct problems in excess of those required to make the diagnosis and conduct problems cause only minor harm to others

Moderate: number of conduct problems and effect on others intermediate between "mild" and "severe"
Severe: many conduct problems in excess of those required to make the diagnosis or conduct problems cause considerable harm to others

Associated Features
Learning Problem
Depressed Mood
Hyperactivity
Addiction
Dramatic/Erratic/Antisocial Personality

October 11, 2001
2:36 pm
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Ladeska
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Anti-social and If Only....are you guys one and the same person. I'm confused....

October 11, 2001
2:43 pm
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Ok...

Well with the psychiatrist sexual abuse was discussed and talkeds about with her by the psychiatrist.
She did not fit criteria for it only antisocial personalityu disorder.
Ok I am not having a go but i would appreciate you asking before accusing me and Molly has been of great help.

For your information antisocial is my friends daughter and knows about the situation ok she reccomened this site to me.

Sorry if I'm rude I dont intend to be

October 11, 2001
2:52 pm
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Ladeska
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I'm not accusing you - I'm simply asking the question and if you had of said this earlier - I might not have persisted with it.

And Molly is great, love her to pieces, I hope she knows I'm not attacking her, just surprised she said that, that's all.

And yes I know of several cases where professional people blew off the deal that sexual abuse was not involved and I've seen the fallout from that, too. Almost lost a teenager friend to that one, she tried to commit suicide because the therapist that was specialized in sexual abuse and who knew this was the case before she saw her - wasn't getting to the root of it, was talking about everything else in the book and giving her a myriad of other names to her problem - when all along it was sexual abuse from her grandfather to her and to her brother that started the whole thing.

When the therapist was asked later why she did not delve into it she said she was afraid of getting sued once the name was spoken - by law - they have to report it. So, just because a person has a sheepskin on the wall that says whatever - doesn't mean they are God or above not calling things - what they are. "We do dance around this issue" thus the reason it continues.

I hope you are right and that it isn't an issue but denial is a rather strong thing on all sides of the fence regarding this and the fact that you are getting so angry at me about this is rather interesting to me. Carry on and I'll butt out.

October 11, 2001
3:24 pm
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Molly
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Ladeska couldn't hurt my feelings, even if she tromped them with spiked boots, the ones she keeps for special occasions. Sexual Abuse is her speciality, she has done extensive research on the subject.
There were several others posting at the same time as mine, and mine was initiated right after the initial inquirey. It is true, it is often overlooked, and I casually took the mothers initial response. However as I reflect, that is just what every one else does. Ladeska knows me better, and mentioned it, that is all. Even with my own daughter, who blatently denies any sexual abuse , and it doesn't all happen at HOME, I in my heart believe she was raped, and evidences every last symptom, of a victim, so shame on me, for going with the usual, casual disregard for something that so certainly could have happened to a 14 year old girl, that no one but she and the perp know about. Then again maybe not, we are very quick to put labels on things, like anti social disorder, and then we are slow to get down to the nitty gritty, cuz we just don't see it, or don't wanna see it. We are just all taking stabs into the dark to try and help some one deal with their immediate pain. No one on this thread in my heart has any intention at the base of their responses, other than the best support that they can give based on their experience, and knowledge. We are all on the same side, and that is for the comfort and support, and eventually healthy well being of those who arrive here in need. All butts are welcome, wanted, and needed.

October 11, 2001
5:05 pm
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Ladeska
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One more post for clarity sake and then I will really and truly butt out here. Molls - I know you'd like to be walked on with spiked boots that's why it wouldn't be a punishment. (smile) You are such a bad, bad girl...

Anyways, I'm rather tactless today and I apologize profusely. Nonetheless, I say what I mean, too, could just wrap it better... But, Molly had some good insight in what she wrote. I've seen alot of lives that have been directly affected by sexual abuse on all sides of the fence. What I've seen is that - it's usually denied by everyone because of the shame factor from every side. It's really more comfortable, easier to just go - oh okay, someone said it wasn't true and they won't admit it themselves, so let's get off the topic as soon as possible.

The victim themselves is often very pleased to be doing this as well because their very core is filled with shame and anger and conflicting feelings that they don't know how to unravel.

It is very, very common for them to develop antisocial behaviors as a direct product of sexual abuse. In fact, it's pretty textbook that they will develop these tendencies - right down to having no conscience about what they do to other people.

So, sometimes we fly over the very thing that we might need to circle back to and look at more intensely. This sordid crime is one of the hardest ones to expose and bring to the light because of how it is viewed, the feelings it brings up in people attached to the victim, and how the victim themselves feels and sees things, threats that may have been made to an impressionable child. It's really tricky webwork all the way around. The mother and/or father feel like they should have protected them, blame themselves, don't want to point the finger, especially if it should be pointed to their mate because they don't want to lose them, and then you have the issue of the child blaming themselves or scared of threats made against them and can develop personality disorders because of it, not to mention what shame can do to a person when it's connected to their sexuality and on it goes..... Life can pretty much end in a person's mind at a really young age. They give up - so many things have been destroyed or brutally maligned. They have no hope, they become bitter at the injustice of it all and it really doesn't matter if you give them everything they want materially. They could care less. Makes them more angry because - what they really needed the most was for someone to see what was truly going on and to "notice" that. Giving them things - feels an awful lot like bribing....epecially if they think - someone did know and yet did nothing. And I'm not talking about you - I'm talking in generalities here, this is just textbook.

All I'm saying is - don't be too quick to discount this. Sexual abuse victims are expert at acting and hiding things and they might be the very last ones to let anyone know what's up....all that has to be carefully unwrapped by someone who is gifted and trained. Psychiatrists typically heal with meds, so they wouldn't necessarily be the first ones to really look at this in depth. It behooves them to assign a disorder to it and then to treat it chemically. Drug therapy sometimes works for some things....but it always works as far as being profitable to the people who peddle them and make them.

I've seen way too many people "medicated" and given long names of disorders when in all reality they would sit right there and tell me that no one - ever got to the bottom of their abuse. After awihle the victim just goes - what the hell, give me drugs, write me up, put me away, whatever, who cares? Because what they really need is people in their lives who aren't afraid of the truth - no matter what it spells out.....that would show them that they are cared for and not just being clinically labelled.

After being a sexual abuse survivor myself for most of my growing up years - and from counseling many women and teens that have been victim to this also - I know the lay of the land and I've seen it from all angles. Doctors miss things, on purpose or otherwise, kids don't always talk - especially about this and parents feel guilty if this could be true and treat it like the plague. Well, it is a plague and our society needs to wake up and stop wanting to label it everything else under the sun, get our kids off of so many drugs and stare the real deal in the face. Sexual abuse is huge everywhere and we are in big denial about it. Until we get smart and very courageous - it will continue.

Maybe this isn't the case with her and I hope it isn't, all I'm asking you to do is to educate yourself about it, get some books, investigate it thoroughly, look back over her patterns, who was around her and rule out "no one" and after that - then you can sit back and like a good detective who has done their homework - can check it off and feel 80% confident - this isn't the case. Just never, never, never write it off because she's not telling or a doctor said it wasn't true. They may both have their independent reasons for saying that. None of which may have her best interests at heart.

So sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to, but this is very close to my heart and all I'm asking you to do is - look into it harder. I wish someone had of done that with me years ago. She may be manipulative and angry and heartless for a reason and that reason may have everything to do with her now mimicking the very behavior of someone who abused....her.... It's a power trip to do that. Makes them feel like they have some control over what happened to them if they can step into the shoes of power and control and steer the wheel. Makes them feel less helpless and that's a feel good to a sexual abuse victim.

October 12, 2001
4:21 pm
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Cici
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This is an excellent summation of the unspoken epidemic of sexual abuse in this country.

I just wanted to put my (perhaps unwanted) 2cents in because I spent a good deal of time at my internship dealing with anti-social PDs who were sentenced to the forensic mental hospital. In class we learned that demographically speaking, Anti-social PD is rare in women because women usually learn to sublimate their rage and shame into more socially acceptible routes, especially depression, anxiety disorders and addictions (not just substances, can be relationships as well).

There have been numerous documented cases of a misdiagnoses of the primary mental illness, and I believe there was a research study done with psychiatrists as well. Psychiatrists are always affected by their own past experiences, especially because so much of the diagnostic criteria for many mental illnesses is iffy at best.

To be blunt, anti-social PD is perhaps THE most difficult mental illness to treat. In fact, to date I know of no successful treatment. It is difficult to ascetain what the cause of the mental illness is because anti-social PDs are notoriously uncooperative, manipulative and unforthcoming. Most clinicians outside of forensics should not deal with these patients, either, they lack the clinical experience, background knowledge and experience and the out-patient setting is not usually appropriate. Even cases with marginal success involved intensive therapy on a daily basis.

At the mental hospital, therapists were only required to see patients for one hour a week, but with group therapy and weekly psychiatrist visits as well, they pretty much received intensive therapy daily. Just some thoughts.

By the way, treatment for sexual abuse is MUCH more successful. My feeling? In terms of severe mental illness, ALWAYS GET A SECOND OPINION. about 80% of the time it will be different from the initial diagnosis.

October 12, 2001
5:04 pm
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Your 2 cents are always appreciated, Cici.....but I'd put a value of at least five bucks on it, don't you think?

October 13, 2001
5:08 am
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if_only
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Hello

Thankyou Molly, Laseska and Cici.

Over the past 2 days my daughter has seen 2 psychiatrists and both said that she was suffering with antisocial personality disorder.

They think she may have to be admitted to hospital.
Can someone answer me one question...

Is this my fault, was I a bad mother to her and she end up like this.

Thankyou for your time.

October 13, 2001
5:50 am
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Ok, Since we are on the subject of sexual abuse I might as well put my self up here also.
A few years ago my brother sexually abused my niece, everyone basically denied that it happened, My mother walked in on them. well I had to talk my mother into calling the police. I knew from the instant that I was told that it was true because He abused me when I was younger. He even went as far as to convince his friend to do the same to me. anyway My family doesnt know about this. I dont even have anything to do with my family because they are all unhealthy for me. anyway I just wanted to say that abuse definetly affects us far more than the non abused can even realize. my mother was also abused when she was a kid. anyway my brother is a parinoid schiophrenic with social anxiety and he is also a pedophile he passed the extensive tests they put him through to determine if he was in fact a pedophile, but I know differently. He is a very cunning person who is very intelligent in spite of his illnesses. I am still affected by the abuse. as we all know I have needless sex with people I would never date seriously and When I do love someone I find it difficult to open up to them I feel very "dirty" after sex. I find myself thinking that I am only as good as the sex I can have. I am still finding reasons to blame myself even though I know that I could not have stopped it or done anything differently. I know that it was not my fault, but I have to convince myself of that everyday. I find myself having alot of hatred for people in general. And for my mother for not stopping it, but how could she have she did not even know. The more I try and tell myself that I will quit having sex the more I look for that one person who I can seduce and them dump.I hate that I do these things but it is hard to break the cycle. I try and justify by actions by letting the guys know that all I want is sex or by picking people who are out for the same thing as me. It is all a big ugly discusting mess I feel so worthless at times so what do I do? I go out and find someone who will give me attention. I have learned that I must only be good for sex. I cannot even bring myself to discuss this with my counselor. I cannot say it out loud. I do not want to hear it out of my mouth. I have tried to run away from it all, but it can run just as fast as I can. I know I must face it, But I am afraid Of loosing control. how can we still be so hurt from something that happened almost 16 years ago?

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