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Mich has a question....regarding sexual assault....
September 9, 2009
4:09 am
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Shonda
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Soofoo,

YW. You said this very well. "In this entire discussion, many judgments have been made about the victim, but not a single judgment has been made about the rapist. Please think about this."

There is the drug that can be slipped in a drink.

ScaredinMichigan. If you are still reading. Your friend has a tough decision ahead of her. I hope you will be a good friend to her in the days and weeks and months to come. I was raped and it's so hard to talk about. It's hard to trust anyone when you have already been violated. She deserves sweetness and kindness. Be that for her.

September 9, 2009
11:01 am
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soofoo
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2BHappy,
If you did not see the victim getting blamed on this discussion, then you have not read all of the posts.

Fantas,
You are not a lawyer. And you have made incorrect judgments one after the other.

I am asking you to re-read what you have stated. If you did know the law, there is no way you would have said the things you've said.

"Your friend is engaging in risky behavior which is the more important issue here."

No it is not. The rape is the more important issue. The "Risky behavior" is completely irrelevant to the rape. "Risky behavior" does not turn men into rapists. A man is either a rapist or he isn't and a woman's behavior does not influence that.

"whether she consented or not, no one will ever know, seeing as she was so drunk."

Legally there was no consent! Having sex with an incapacitated person is rape in the US fantas, so obviously you are no expert on the law. To the contrary of what you have stated it would be very difficult to prove consent! This woman has bruises on her body! Do you really think a jury would see that and say "Oh well, it's hard to tell if she consented."

And that is just the beginning. It is highly likely that she was drugged. And if someone drugged her, that person is guilty of rape even if she never said no, and went along with it, because drugging someone to incapacitate them for sex is rape to a higher degree.

So please stop poisoning people's minds with this crap about how it would be too hard to prove the case.

You tell me that you are creating policies that make the world a safer place for children and women. ????

How about supporting and defending the laws that ARE ALREADY IN PLACE to get justice for rape victims. How about you stop telling victims that they will never be able to prove their case, when you have no idea what you are talking about.

Done.

September 9, 2009
12:39 pm
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ScaredinMichigan
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Alright....

So, all that said....the truth of the matter is that it was me I was asking for. This BS of blaming the victim was the exact fear I had of posting all of this to begin with...

That all said, I went yesterday and had a SANE exam done. They took pictures of all of the bruises. Well....they took pictures of pretty much everything. The vaginal opening is red and inflamed and in the order of a urine specimen, my urine was maroon. That is believed to be from the trauma done to my body.

I was given all of the antibiotics for prevention of STD's etc. Without question, it was considered RAPE!! There is great reason to believe that I was drugged, but because I waited 60 hours to be seen, any drugs would have been out of my system. However, they also did a DNA sample and believe that there is a great possibliity that it would come back with evidence.

It was considered rape for one reason alone really...I was in an altered state of mind....which does make it illegal. However, the damage done to my body is all the indication that they need.

Was drinking the problem here?? No, it was not. It was some assholes inability to handle himself. Blame the victim, that is why they keep getting away with it. I was told today that the recipe for several rape drugs can be found right online. SICK.

Did my drinking allow it to happen?? Maybe....and even I wouldn't deny that. BUT....that doesn't make it my fault.

So...it is what it is. I have 30 days to decide what to do with the evidence.

Thanks for all the input....

Mich

September 9, 2009
1:33 pm
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CAMER
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mich, this is awful, cuz it was you.

And yes, this thread got blown way out of proportion, again, its the freedom of everyone stating what they feel and giving feedback, some may be good some may not, take what you want.

Do you remember, you must, as to whether or not you consented this? and by all means, press charges, esp with the bruises on your body, you do not deserve that.

((sending you hugs))

September 9, 2009
1:46 pm
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chelonia mydas
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(((Mich)))

It sucks that this happened to you. You don't deserve it.

I'm sorry for the comments on this thread that have made this already traumatic ordeal more traumatic.

Please hold on to the supportive parts of this thread and discard the rest. From the parts I read (and I just couldn't read it all) it seems that some of this is just other folks needing to work out whatever issues/demons/thoughts that are their's to deal with. Let it stay with them and don't take it as anything having to do with you.

You do have support here and many folks that understand your situation. I have been raped by force and coercion, but never while I was unconsious. So while I do understand in some ways, I don't share your same experience. But there are many others who have and can relate. I've never reported any of my rapes. Its only been recently that I have even faced it 10-20 years later.

I understand fully the shame and dirtiness and the way that it feels like it just can't be true. It took a lot of courage to come here and share. I respect that am very glad you went to the doctor.

I encourage you to seek help and support. Keeping it to yourself just makes the emotional wounds fester and decay. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away- I know that from experience. Now I'm really paying a price because some days I can't stop crying and how do you explain to others that you are bawling over something that happened decades ago but until now you just pretended it didn't happen?

By reaching out, you will encounter people that will offer immense amounts of support and healing. Many folks here support you and understand what you are facing. Another great resource is the rape crisis center. Hold onto the supportive folks. On the days when it feels like your world is caving in, they will be there to throw you a rope so you can climb out of that hole.

You will also encounter people who have similar unhelpful reactions that some folks had here. They mean well but rape is a very hard subject to deal with. Its a senseless act that no one can really make sense of and its the victims who pay over and again with so many different facets of confusion, disbelief, mistrust, guilt, anger, sadness, etc.

Sending you hugs and support. You will get through this, but the road ahead is bumpy and rough. I'm here for you as are many others.

September 9, 2009
1:49 pm
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So sorry this happened to you Mich...you were a victim of some creep. I decent man would not have done what he did. I have a grown son and I've remembered him bringing a young girl to the house one time who had gotten too drunk. He let her sleep in his bed till the next day when she recovered. This man took advantage of the situation..having sex is always my mutual consent even between husbands and wives.

One of my girlfriends was in a car accident and semi-conscious when taken to the hospital..one of the male nurses saw an opportunity to rape her while in her condition...She reported the incident and DNA was taken and he was found guilty and prosecuted.

Please do something and do not let him make you feel like a victim.

Anyway..just my opinion...I know you must be going through all kinds of emotions right now...I dont want to make it any harder for you...ultimately it is your decision as to what you want to do...we are only here for support.

 

 

2bHappy

September 9, 2009
2:25 pm
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sorry...wanted to say "having sex is always BY mutual consent"

 

 

2bHappy

September 9, 2009
2:53 pm
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atalose
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Mich,

I am so deeply sorry this has happened to you. I’m relieved to know you have taken steps towards seeking medical attention.

Please know that there is support here for you with how ever you decide to proceed from here.

((Mich))

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

September 9, 2009
5:47 pm
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ScaredinMichigan
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Thanks for the support.

I appreciate all of the support that some have offered, and I accept those that can't. I hope that they never know what it is that I am going through at this moment.

For me, part of this is difficult because I don't want to be a victim anymore. I have been a victim for a long time, and I am ready to be over that. I want to move forward.

As I spoke to my daughters therapist for a few minutes this morning, it was brought to my attention that it may really be for the best that I do not remember any of it. Right now, there is the constant reminder of the even because I can visibly see the bruises, and I can feel the pain every time that I bend over or move just right in my pelvic region. I have to deal with what happened, and decide how I am going to handle it, but I don't have to deal with emotionally handling the facts of what happened. As much as I want to know what happened to my body....I am thinking that it may be for the best that I don't know.

I can honestly say that I have NO recollection whatsoever of whether or not it was consensual. That is the biggest thing that I have struggled with. I don't necessarily want to hang someone for something that I agreed to. That said, legally, it doesn't matter. Morally...I feel that it does. No matter how much alcohol I consumed doesn't make me comfortable to say that I was or wasn't able to consent. This isn't really about the consent thing....what concerns me is that the hospital and everyone else involved believe that drugs played a HUGE piece in this. BUT...because I waited so long to go to the hospital, it was too late to do blood tests for any of that. The one thing that I am 100% certain of though is that I would have NEVER consented to the amount of damage done to my body. Or anything that would or could have caused it.

I just need to figure this all out in my head and my heart. I have a lot to think about....and then I need to figure out what it is that I want to do for me. Tough spot to be in really....but, as always....I will get through it.

Thanks again to all of you!!

(((my AAC friends)))

September 9, 2009
6:34 pm
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andii
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I'm so sorry this happened to you Mich.

Whether or not to press charges is indeed a difficult decision. While the legal process is a tough ordeal for victims, it's also a tremendously empowering one. To press charges is to name a man for what he is, a rapist. Whether or not people choose to believe you, you will be naming him for what he is. You will lose "friends", but gain an understanding in what a friend really is. You will feel alone but not as alone as you probably do right now.

A great deal goes on psychologically for the victim. A part of you is probably blaming yourself, and when people make "blame" innuendos or outright statements that belief is strengthened. There is shame, and people will reinforce that shame as well. They don't mean to hurt you mich, they are protecting themselves by trying to find a way to believe it can't and won't ever happen to them. Truth is, it takes a vulnerable woman and a predator in the same place at the same time and there's rape. And we as woman or just people, are vulnerable periodically. But that's a hard thing for many a woman to swallow: that yup, rape can happen to each and every one of us.

I mean really, being raped ranks pretty high as a woman's worst nightmare. Sio any and all denial- it's a coping strategy.

Telling dispels shame. soon you'll be able to say "yeah I was raped, it sucked and SO WHAT?"

You're a survivor mich. You survived a rape. You didn't agree, mich, to anything. Consensual, intimate, loving sex rarely results in bruising and vaginal tears. Rape nearly always does. The bruises occurred due to resistance and or unnecessary roughness. You may not remember anything now, but in time you probably will. part of not remembering is due to the intoxication, and part is due to the trauma. There may be nightmares and daymares, startling at things, and strangely but true: body memories.

Body memories are being touched a certain way, smells, certain actions, certain positions, touches, that remind you of the trauma. They pop up at the most inopportune time, like when you're making love with somebody. Your body will remember what happened as will your subconscious.

I'm telling you these things so that you can know what might be coming and not be so shocked when and if they do. Some women bury things their whole lives (but it bleeds out i.e. affects decisions), for some it comes out in pieces, for some it floods at once. But you're a changed woman now mich. In time, you will be a stronger woman if you deal with this now.

Dealing with this now means doing just what you're doing- talking about it, posting in discussion boards about it, asking about it, learning about it. Pat yourself on the back.

You're much stronger than you know.

(((mich)))

September 9, 2009
7:06 pm
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My heart goes out to everyone in this thread because I truly believe they meant well. It's just that sometimes we will tell others what has been told to us. "You deserved it" "You agreed on some level" "you put yourself in that position" "HER behoviour was risky" "HER sweater too tight". Maybe it's a way of justifying what has happened to them in the past.

Those that are in pain and denial can't always reach out to others. Remember The Color Purple? Celie (Whoopie) was getting beaten every day. When her stepson asked her what he should do about his mouthy wife (Oprah) and the arguments they were having, she said, "beat her".

I am assuming that everyone that posted on this thread is female, but some of what I read sounds like the stuff that lots of men say to excuse this horrible behaviour. It's just sad how much we as women are still brainwashed by this mentality.

ScaredinMichigan, I thought it might be you that you were posting about. It's so hard to talk about, it IS easier to tell it in the third person. I understand. Even so, be as gentle and sweet to yourself as you would a friend in this situation. Hugs to you.

September 10, 2009
12:39 am
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(((Mich)))

September 10, 2009
3:39 am
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oh mich honey, i'm so sorry this has happened. i don't know what words to say but to offer you a listening ear and a caring heart.

(((((mich))))))

September 10, 2009
9:31 am
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atalose
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Mich,

I can’t even begin to imagine what you are going through and all the thoughts and feeling running through you right now.

I think it was a great idea that you opened up and discussed it briefly with your daughter’s therapist. Not remembering may be for the best even though your body is showing signs your mind is not living it over and over again.

What about a crisis hotline for rape or to talk to a counselor who specializes in just that. Like the idea your daughters therapist put on the table about it being good you don’t remember, maybe talking to someone who specializes in date rape will have other good suggestions for you to help you make your way through all of this.

((mich))

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

September 10, 2009
11:03 am
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We are not to blame for being the victim of a crime but we must look at the situation that led up to it and ask ourselves honestly if there is anything we can do now in order to prevent this tragedy from happening again. You didn't deserve this. This person was wrong. I'm not blaming you. I do suggest you seek some help for processing this ordeal. You may feel okay right now but bad feelings may creep up on you, they have a way of popping up at the most inconvenient time. I also advise you look into your drinking if you are drinking to the point of being totally out of it.

I'm in recovery. Some bad things happened to me when I was using. Where they my fault, no. I didn't ask to be beaten, held hostage, kicked in the head, forced to have sex, but my decision to get whacked out on substances with questionable people did contribute to those things happening to me. If I hadn't been using drugs and alcohol I wouldn't have been out of it, I wouldn't have been at such a place, I wouldn't have been with such shady characters.

When something happens in our lives its always good to look at the situation, when we are able to, and really look at our part in how things played out. This just happened to you. You aren't ready to look at yourself right now, it's too raw. Support groups help tremendously. So does seeing a therapist of your own that specialized in trauma. Good luck.

September 10, 2009
12:50 pm
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Mich- I agree with Mary. In my opinion you need to take care of yourself and your children. Part of recovery is keeping toxic people out of your life. A person who drinks so much that they "black out" is very unhealthy. I dont see how a person like this could possibly improve your life. I dont know anything about your friend or why you are playing the role of a third party victim.

Your "friend" needs to address her problems with alcohol abuse before you can even consider building a friendship with her. Your "friend" does not sound like she is accepting responsiblity for her decision to pick up and drink alcohol and the consequences for doing so. It is up to your "friend" not you to decide what she wants to do about it. You can provide her with the toll free number for AA and sexual assault victims. Then leave the situation in her hands. Her drinking and the horrific consequences that result from it are not your problem they are hers.

All this time that you are spending on her problems might be better spent trying to figure out why you are attracted to people like her, why you would allow her in your life or around your children.

Please read the Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout especially the part about the "pity ploy". Maybe after gaining some insight you will see the pit falls the next time someone comes with you with some sad story that makes you feel like you need to help them out.

You are in need of friends that are good role models. Who are successfull that can add to your life, who can bring joy and happiness.

My personal motto is I dont say no to people who abuse drugs and alcohol I say "NEVER!".

September 10, 2009
1:15 pm
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Destiny...you didnt read all the posts...Please read them.

 

 

2bHappy

September 10, 2009
1:55 pm
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((((Mich)))

I am sorry if anything I posted gave you addotional grief.

(Like Shondra said: "My heart goes out to everyone in this thread because I truly believe they meant well.")

I really did mean well.

I have saved a special link from "Womens's Justice Center" out of Santa Rosa, CA
which I feel has some very validating material for rape victims, below is just an excerpt:

Part II - Preventing and Dealing with Mistreatment from Others

Over the last 30 years, people's responses to rape victims have improved tremendously. However, it is still likely that you will run into one or more persons who will treat you badly. People may disbelieve you, ridicule you, abandon, blame, ostracize, sabotage, threaten, betray you, or side with the rapist against you. These painful and dangerous reactions can come from family, friends, and authorities as well as from people associated with the rapist. It fact, it's particularly devastating to rape victims when you're treated badly by the very people you expected would help you.
Many victims say the betrayal of these experiences is so painful that it was worse than the rape itself. That's why, in the literature on rape, this all too common abusive treatment of rape victims has been given the name, "the second rape".

In addition to being terribly sexist and wrong, these all too common abuses of rape victims are also very dangerous to the victim. These abusive reactions drive rape victims into deepening isolation and despair. When these abuses gather steam, they can turn the victim's whole social or family group against her. This can easily result in losses to the victim of vital relationships, jobs, housing, school, or to the loss of the victim's connections to help.

The disbelieving, blaming, and ostracizing of rape victims is also dangerous to all women and girls. Driving rape victims into isolation and despair is one of the ways a male dominated society supports the ongoing existence of rape.

In this section we first give you a couple examples of "the second rape". Then we give you some explanations of why this so often occurs. Don't get discouraged as you read these. Remember that we're going to show you how best to stop these abuses, and how to turn them around so you get the positive help and support you deserve. The reason we lay out what can go wrong in such detail is so that you and your friends will recognize the problem early on if it starts to happen to you.

Link:

ttp://www.justicewomen.com/help_special_rape.html

Again, my apologies to you if my posts caused you any undue grief.

The fact remains that there are thousands of rape kits in CA that are never processed because it takes alot of time & money for foresnic professionals to process each one, but it is all a matter of priorities. NY, by comparison HAS made this a priority and have now processed the huge backlog of rape kits.

I found this out by watching the PBS program "NOW": 'Justice Delayed' which aired in April and again in August:

Here is the link to the transcript, FYI:

http://www.pbs.org/cove-media/.....cript.html

Also, another site which links up to the 25 minute segment if you can watch videos on your PC (I can't because I have dial-up.)

http://abyss2hope.blogspot.com.....cklog.html

Mich, If you sensed any kind of anger or frustration from me, it is ONLY because of my anger and frustration towards the system itself and how all too often this "crime of violence" continues because of a lack of repercussions and priorities from law enforcement and failure to process the rape kits STILL in many areas, though there are great strides being made now that this matter is being made more public.

I only wish that there were something more I could do. Please know that I am 110% 'in your corner' without question!

((((((((MICH))))))))

September 10, 2009
7:05 pm
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andii
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Destiny,

Mich isn't talking about a friend. She's talking about herself. So kindly pull back the sledgehammer.

And the consequences of drinking too much alcohol involve flu like symptoms.

Not rape.

Perfectly healthy and normal people drink too much alcohol from time to time. And the consequence is not rape.

If a man drinks too much at a bar and somebody jumps him, nobody ever tells him he got jumped and robbed because he drank too much. Not even the police. They try to catch the people who jumped him.

If you can't offer support to a rape victim for one reason or another how about just keeping the old lips together. i.e. say nothing.

argh

September 10, 2009
7:16 pm
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_anonymous
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2BHAPPY- Thank you for pointing that out.

September 10, 2009
7:18 pm
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andii
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Furthermore, a friend is raped and you think the thing to do is give her a couple of numbers and keep a distance?

OMG!

OMG!

Sometimes I am just blown away at the coldness and callousness of "things" that are called human beings that I walk this earth with.

September 10, 2009
9:36 pm
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andi- First of all there was no friend of Michs that was raped so get over yourself.

Mich lied in her first post. Now what should I do read each post and wonder what is a lie and what is the truth?

If you really are interested in recovery I would highly recommend the book The Sociopath Next Door and it will explain the type of people who use the "pity ploy".

September 10, 2009
9:58 pm
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truthBtold
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For what it is worth.....I wouldn't call what Mich did as out and out lying, exactly.

Of course, I can not speak for her, but it appears to me that she might have been rather, 'testing the waters' for folks' reactions to such a sensitive and potentially triggering topic is all - and perhaps her intuition was correct in some ways as this does seem to be taking a turn in a direction which is not exactly 100% supportive of her and seems to be drifting off the subject matter a bit.....

(Maybe we should all just try to re-focus a bit with just a tad of compassion and understanding towards something horrible which has happenned to someone here and she had the GUTS to open up and share with us......)

September 10, 2009
10:03 pm
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andii
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Destiny with all due respect you've no idea what you are talking about.

Mich telling her story in the third person is extremely common. It's commonplace. If you worked with survivors, had been a survivor working in recovery, or had any education regarding rape, you'd know that this is not uncommon. You sound like a defense attorney who gets the rapist off the hook. All survivors must deal with this exact shit if they choose to prosecute, which is why so many don't.

The way you would treat your friend who was raped is beyond deplorable. Your callousness and coldness sickens me.

Destiny- that book you recommend- I highly read it yourself. This type of callousness and coldness is common amongst your type.

What else can I say.

Normal people just don't treat others the way you treat Mich.

I don't like you. And I don't want to speak with you anymore.

In addition, getting over myself is NOT something I will do anytime soon. I like myself. And I like most people too. And my heart goes out to Mich and those who were trying to support her but didn't know how.

My heart doesn't go out to you.

I don't like you.

Goodbye.

September 10, 2009
10:12 pm
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chelonia mydas
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Destiny, your last post seems very defensive and not at all supportive. I'm question if it even follows the first two guidelines of posting on this site.

Please consider not posting unless you have support to offer. Mich has enough to deal with right now. She doesn't need to deal with your inappropriate jabs. (I looked up the book you recommended and discovered what the pity ploy is. It doesn't even tangentially relate to this situation.)

I agree with Andii's suggestion. "If you can't offer support to a rape victim for one reason or another how about just keeping the old lips together. i.e. say nothing."

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