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Mich has a question....regarding sexual assault....
September 7, 2009
11:50 pm
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ScaredinMichigan
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OK....so, here is the scenario...

Saturday night a friend of mine was at a party. She had a lot to drink, like a really lot.

She woke up Sunday knowing that she had had sex. That said, remembers NOTHING of the last several hours of the evening. Has no recollection at all of the event. There was enough physical proof for her to know the facts.

That said, she woke up today with bruises all over her inner thighs and extreme pain in her pubic region. Not constant pain, but it is extremely tender to the touch, and is bruised.

She is not claiming to have been raped, for she is unsure of whether she consented or not.

What are your thoughts on this situation??

September 8, 2009
12:12 am
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marypoppins
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I think if your friend were posting about her situation, it would be a different story.

What is the point of discussing what has happened to a third party? We don't know all the details.

And isn't recovery about NOT taking on the problems of others and focusing on ourselves?

It seems that your friend needs to take care of herself.

Mary

September 8, 2009
12:20 am
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fantas
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Scared,

The fact that she remembers nothing is what needs to be addressed in my opinion. She probably should consider not doing that again because whether she consented or not, no one will ever know, seeing as she was so drunk. A friend of mine went to meet someone she had met on line and he drugged and raped her. She remembered everything but was too scared to report given that she really didn't know this guy. Your friend is engaging in risky behavior which is the more important issue here.

September 8, 2009
12:25 am
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ScaredinMichigan
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mary,

Are there other details you feel the need to know? I have given her my opinion of the situation. I said that I would see what other people felt about the situation.

Even if I were posting this about me, or you about you....we still wouldn't have all of the details. We weren't there.

Friends help each other out, thats what friends are for. I don't think that there is anything wrong with me asking this question for her. I am not sure what bothers you so much about me asking a question for a friend. People on here all of the time talk about seeking help for others.

If there is someone here who this has happened to, then maybe there can be some insight.

If she is not able to consent...is it rape? If you want more details...I can probably answer that...I didn't feel that was necessary to make an attempt.

I am not looking to solve her problem, or anything else. Simply looking to help her out.

Mich

September 8, 2009
12:33 am
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ScaredinMichigan
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Thank you Fantas. Yes, agreed, the not being able to remember anything concerned me as well. As it does her. She is not someone who drinks on a regular basis by any means. Though that said, swears she has had MUCH more to drink than she did Saturday night, and never had a problem. NEVER forgotten anything, much less SEVERAL hours at a time. She wonders whether it is possible that she was drugged too.

I am unsure of how long any of that stays in your system. But, I know here, I am almost certain that if you are legally intoxicated, you are not legally able to consent to sex. It would be considered rape. IF she goes to the hospital and the find traces of drugs or whatever, that is one thing. She does not however want to falsely accuse someone of something that she doesn't remember. But, the bruises, the pain??? None of it really makes sense.

September 8, 2009
12:45 am
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chelonia mydas
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If I were in her situation I would go to the doctor and tell them what happened. If there were a way to tell if she was drugged, then she would know. Does she know who she was with?

Even if they can't tell for sure if she was drugged, she should be examined and tested for STDs. She could also seek counseling to help cope with the trauma.

If she was drugged and raped, then chances are that this creep will do it again to other women. That alone is reason enough to go to the doctor. Even if she doesn't know who he is, it sounds like she has his DNA that could be put on file and kept to show a pattern if he does it to others or has in the past done it.

September 8, 2009
12:45 am
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2BHAPPY
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Mich..I would have your friend report this to the police..I hope its not too late to collect the evidence.

I have read of several instances where the guy was prosecuted for this same thing. It looks like he forced himself on someone who was not able to say stop..she might have been unconscious...and the bruises clearly showed evidence of force. I asked my boyfriend who was a cop for many years and he said something like this should be reported. Once she talks to the police and let them know what she remembers and they examine her..they will make the decision of whether charges should be filed or no.

If she doesnt do anything..I hope that this serves as a lesson that she needs to be careful out there. It is very dangerous behaviour.

 

 

2bHappy

September 8, 2009
1:05 am
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soofoo
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This happened to me in college, minus the bruises and pain. I woke up naked. I know who did it, as he was confronted by my best friend and then boyfriend. He got a lawyer right away. I went to the ER and they referred me to a rape crisis center that only dealt with rape. They tested me for GHB and took many, many samples. They were very kind, considerate and respectful.

The GHB test came out negative, as did semen, etc. I believe that the guy took off my clothes and touched me without raping me. I believe that due to hard evidence though, and I also think that getting all those tests and pursuing prosecution really helped me to heal from the incident.

The case was dropped as it was too hard to prove beyond the removal of my clothing. My boyfriend saw him conspicuously running away, but did not actually catch him in the act. However, the man who did it dropped the class we had together and took an "F" and I never saw him again.

I believe your friend was raped. She should be tested for GHB and other drugs and she should see a doctor. She should document the bruising. I highly recommend a rape crisis center like the one I went to. They take care of everything. I would not lecture her about risky behavior at this time. She is already paying a terrible price.

After the trauma I went through (which happened at my own party, in my own house) I went through a period where I was afraid to sleep at night. I would wake with a jolt in my chest and I would check that the windows were locked a lot. I could not sleep alone. I had a very supportive group of friends that was fundamental in helping me with this. It took about 3 months to stop jolting awake and checking the windows, and 6 months to sleep alone.

September 8, 2009
1:28 am
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fantas
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I agree she needs to go to the hospital and have a rape kit collected as well as take STD tests. I would also suggest not anticipating the worst of the worst. The lack of recollection can be used to help or hurt her. It's possible that in her drunkenness, assuming that that's all it was, she may have consented. The partner may have been just as drunk as well. It's also possible that a worse thing happened. Either way, she can choose to not emphasize on the worst part of the situation since she has no mental recollection.

If she were my friend, I would encourage her to get the testing for her health, learn the lesson here, consider herself lucky to still be alive (she could have had alcohol poisoning, or been really hurt by those around while she was out of it) and move on.

September 8, 2009
3:14 am
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Shonda
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ScaredinMichigan

It's loving and sweet that you care about your friend and want to help her. I had to have a rape kit once. I was afraid it would be one more trauma after what I had endured.and it was done very discreetly, gently. I went alone, though. If she decides to do it, maybe it would help to have someone go along with her? Moral support, and a hand to squeeze before and after always helps.

September 8, 2009
10:49 am
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atalose
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In my opinion if she was too intoxicated to consent then yes in fact it was rape.

The main focus should be on HER health right now and to be tested for STD’s. regardless of her intent to file any kind of police reports.

The fact she doesn’t drink often doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a drinking problem. The fact she has had more to drink in the past then other night means nothing. Black outs are a result of the affects alcohol has on one’s system. It is also very possible that she was drugged as well.

Getting herself checked out by a doctor should be her first priority.

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

September 8, 2009
6:46 pm
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andii
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If a person is too drunk or high to consent then it's rape. Not all judges and juries are seeing it this way as it's difficult to prove the "too drunk" or "too high" part. However, legally it is rape.

Kinda like this: If you are oober drunk or high and somebody takes your paycheck out of your wallet but you don't really notice or object, is it theft? Yup, it is. Even though you did not object or only objected slightly.

andii

September 8, 2009
7:33 pm
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soofoo
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Let's not anticipate the worst?!

Since when does consent lead to bruising on the thighs and pubic area?

Uh... no.

What is with all this blame the victim bullshit? "Risky behavior" "She's lucky to still be alive"

NO. This is WRONG.

She's entitled to be alive. Entitled to drink alcohol without being assaulted. Entitled to safety.

I am so pissed off right now I may never come to this site again.

September 8, 2009
7:46 pm
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truthBtold
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Mich,

I'm no saint by any stretch of the imagination whatsoever - but I say if your friend can determine that she is NOT pregnant right now and/or doesn't have any kind of STD because of this ('escapade' that well, she pretty much, sort of, kind of, agreed to - on some level... - sober or not....afterall - she DID agree to the possible ramifications that over indulging in alcohol can and will most likely very well induce - right?) -

Then it's hell damned skippy time that your friend finally wakes up and smells the fricking fracking coffee and considers her ass damn lucky right fricking now!

ALREADY!

No Chit!

Consider her ass really fricking-fracking LUCKY already!!!!!! And just chalk this whole miserable expereince on what NOT TO DO in the future.....ya know?

I really hope that this is INDEED the case! I really and honestly and hopefully do!

(If not, well, that's par for another thread...........)

Aside from this Mich, after all the dust has finally, hopefully settled and everything about this mess - maybe settles - just maybe you ought to just sit down your own self and ask yourself just why in the world you allow yourself to be so easily drawn into other people's crap and drama about all this mess......to begin with????

It's one thing to be a good friend....from a distance....Afterall, we can provide adequate support and sincere prayers and stuff from a distance.....quite another to become all emeshed and intangled in the what we percieve as a personal account/web - as another.

DO keep yourself calm and detached and at a safe, emotional distance is all I'm sayin......However it shakes out!

tBt

September 8, 2009
7:51 pm
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Shonda
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So do drunk women deserve what they get from rapists? Or thieves? Or "support" on this forum?

September 8, 2009
7:52 pm
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Shonda
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Soofoo,

Please don't leave. You're a loving, compassionate, wise person.

September 8, 2009
7:59 pm
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fantas
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Soofoo,

I do not know who you are referring to by saying we are blaming the victim, but in my case, I have a friend who went through this same thing with absolute recollection but too drugged to do anything. We did the rape kit and she refused to press charges or go to therapy. I saw how traumatized she was just thinking that someone she had trusted, albeit without good reason, would hurt her this way. She also realized that it was a very close call and that guy could just as easily have killed her and in the midst of all the emotional crisis she was going through, she was able to tell herself this truth about this guy. For some strange reason, this guy didn't kill but there may not have been a second time. She played the scenario over and over again in her mind. Strange as it is, lack of memory may be her salvation in this case. Hopefully, she doesn't drink again, or at least in bad company.

Michigan's friend, has no recollection of what happened. Doesn't make any assault she may have suffered okay, and if she was raped, the culprit/s should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. However, unless a person is willing to speak and testify to what happened on her behalf,which is unlikely because they would be considered accomplices for having not reported, she doesn't stand a chance in hell. She is her own obstacle here. Who should be blamed for this? This situation is horrific all around. Both sides of this scenario leave a lot to be desired...but it is what it is.

Since it isn't the person who was hurt but her friend who is asking the question, I think it is okay to throw out all the possibilities out there. She wants to know how she she can help her and the first step towards that is calling it what it is. When you drink to a point of passing out, many things including death of yourself and others could happen. A fellow student of mine died last year of alcohol poisoning. her fiance and family are still so very devastated. She never accepted the seriousness of her drinking and all the little warnings, and there were many, along the way. So yes, this girl is fortunate to be alive. She may not be this lucky next time.

I applaud Mich for wanting to know all she can do about her friend. Nothing can be done for the girl who died. My friend who was date drugged and raped has since then changed and is on a very different path. I remember how upset and compassionate I felt when I was with her at the hospital. It's very hard to watch someone you love go down a destructive path that only they can fix.

September 8, 2009
8:47 pm
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truthBtold
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Shonda wrote:

"So do drunk women deserve what they get from rapists? Or thieves? Or "support" on this forum? "

I say - NO - OF COUSE NOT! They don't deserve it at all whatsoever!

Not in ANY way, shape or form!

Does it happen? Hell, yes.

Let's get real.

Could it be avoided in the first place? Possibly - Probably - in some cases.

That's the risk you (and I have unfortunantely) taken, unfortunantly.

I'll fess up to myself. I DID some pretty stupid crap and stuff MYSELF and am damned lucky to be alive without any STD'S!!!!!

So - let's get real here folks! We aren't living in some kind of Disney Movie where - at the end there is a 'happily ever after scene".......

Far from it, as a matter of fact.

If ANYONE has a platform to complain and bitch about all of this....it is me!

Afterall, what has plagued me for years is just why in the world, as a young child, I felt deep down and in my heart of hearts of hearts that the only thing that I was ever going to be good for was sex?

Just WHERE IN THE WORLD did this just all of a sudden spring to my mind as just an absolute about myself as a child?????

Do you just suppose that little innocent girls just naturally come to this conclusion about themselves at just such a young and innocent age....you think?

Hell Fucking NO!!!!!!!

Did/Does it excuse the behavior of the slimy, sneaky-snakey perps that smelled my lack of discrimination from the getgo and selfishly honed into it and acted upon it full force simply because I just did not know any better?

Again - hell fucking NO!

It Does NOT excuse the behavior in the slightest.......

Yet - does it continue to happen?

Hell - Yes it does!

Does that make me the 'bad guy'? - hell, fricking no.

But it DOES HAPPEN all the same, sadly.

It DOES happen.

That's all I'm sayin......

Could I maybe have avoided some crap by being drunk? Knowing what I know - I can say this: I certaintly did not stack the cards in my favor.....ALL THINGS CONSIDERED!!!!!

I didn't deserve it, I didn't ask for it by any means.

Was I somehow aware of what COULD happen on some level - playing with fire in a sense - probably and most likely and this is NOT something that is easy to admit to.........

But, I did it anyway if not for any other reason than to finally come to terms with the process of elimination of what I WILL NOT be accepting in terms of disrespectful and abusive behaviors in the future!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Slippery slope here folks.

I will not be subjected nor relagated or agree to filing me or my situation in some type of 'victim' file, as it were....but - BY THE SAME TOKEN - I can not completely exonerate myself as just a mere innocent bystander either - knowing the little I know and not excusing and gracefully 'bowing out' of a situation that all the while - in my heart of heats I KNEW was not in my best interests either........

That's all I've got tah say!

I didn't deserve it. I didn't ask for it. Did I kind of sort of know better - perhaps, in a screwed up way I sort of did on some kind of screwy level - I did know better but was naive enough to think that maybe - just maybe - 'this time - it will be better."

This and ONLY this from this I state, I have no one other but my own naive-ass-self to blame in this particular context!!!!!!!

tBt

September 8, 2009
11:22 pm
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andii
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If a man had sex with me when I was extremely intoxicated I'd surely feel many things. Luck isn't of them. This gal is not lucky she's alive any more than any one of us are. She's very unlucky that she happened to be in a situation at the same time a predator was.

THAT sucks and is anything but lucky.

In nature survival of the fittest dictates who lives and who dies. In a civilized society it's not supposed to, but unfortunately often does.

Women will often find a way to place at least part of the blame on a victim. This is denial, a way to say to herself "it won't happen to me, I'm smarter than that woman who was raped"

Well, you're wrong. It can happen, and it might.

andii

September 8, 2009
11:26 pm
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ScaredinMichigan
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HOLY SHIT!!! And one wonders why people don't say anything....good god almighty.

Why might one ask for the sake of a friend instead of getting on here and saying that they were asking for theirselves....

Good to see that some things never change....

BY ALL MEANS....lets blame the victim in the situation...PLEASE!!

September 9, 2009
1:10 am
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soofoo
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Shonda, thank you.

I am very angry about this.

Andii said it very well. I am too angry to express myself well about it. There is no luck here. It is abominable to call the woman (mich or mich's friend) lucky. It's twisted. It is twisted to blame a rape on the victim's overindulgence in alcohol, and that is what is being done.

The learn-your-lesson tone is sickening. Why don't you just say, "Well that's what you get." or "Next time don't be such a slut."

The most disturbing comment is this one

"'escapade' that well, she pretty much, sort of, kind of, agreed to - on some level"

How the hell do you get that? How can you look at the facts here and say that there was some kind of agreement?

When did drinking alcohol equal consent to brutal sex that leaves one in pain and bruised?

Vulnerability does not equal consent.

Rape is not a learning experience. This is not a wake up call. This was an assault.

Fantas,
You are absolutely wrong to say that mich (mich's friend) has no case. If she were to have a drug test and a rape kit, she may very well have a good case. Your discouragement is very disturbing.

When they do a rape kit, they comb for hairs, dna evidence, it is very thorough. It might provide much needed answers.

I'm angry as hell, but not really at the people here. I know that sexual assault has been a problem for folks here. It pains me that you blame yourself. I hate it. The perpetrator probably feels less guilt and shame after an assault than the victim. Because the victim absorbs it.

In this entire discussion, many judgments have been made about the victim, but not a single judgment has been made about the rapist. Please think about this.

Another thing, supporting a friend who was raped (and that maybe is not what happened here but I will say this anyway) is NOT getting sucked into somebody else's "drama".

Again, Andii stated it well. I didn't. But at least I feel a little better.

September 9, 2009
1:42 am
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fantas
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This is the last I will comment on this because it seems like we have stopped offering helpful info to Mich.

As someone who has been molested as a child and raped by a teacher while in high school. I know first hand that none of this is okay. I also know what it feels like to know that someone I trusted has betrayed my trust when I truly had no other alternative and I have no useful recourse. On paper it seems like I do but in reality I don't.

I know what it feels like to know that you cannot report on a teacher or any other powerful figure if you are a young female because you will be blamed and accused of misconduct. I know what it is like to live in a culture where once people know you have been raped you are perceived as dirty and no one wants you and men treat you any which way they wish because after all you are now spoiled goods. So even if the laws say you can, the cost of reporting may not be worth it.Some have to raise children of rape because they cannot afford the costs of abortions. This to me is helplessness and victim-hood. These women truly have no alternative but to accept their fate and even then, they come out swinging and claiming their space and dignity and some like me just leave the country.

There are men/women psychos everywhere. These posts are full of women who have experienced this first hand. They strike even when women are taking great measures to ensure their safety. For us as women to not accept this fact and do what we can to ensure our safety (not guarantee it) seems rather naive. To me the issue here isn't about the atrocity of this issue because that's a given. The issue to me is how this girl can do all she can to keep herself safe from here on. Ignorance isn't bliss in this case. Unless she was alone with a bunch of strangers, seems to me that those who knew her weren't willing to protect her. So she can't depend on others. We live in times when society in general has little value for women/children(as evidenced by laws that do not go far enough). Can you imagine someone hurting an animal in the presence of people and getting away with it? No! and yet, no one will show up in defense of a woman.

To say that no one should touch her if she were to get drunk and fall down flat is common sense, this is her birthright.But we all know the reality. Men will molest their own children, how much easier a total stranger? The only thing we women have, until we create governments that decide that rape is worth life imprisonment or castration (my personal preference) are our wits and might. Regardless of what the law states, this is our reality. Were it not so, we wouldn't carry mace around.

Michigan's friend has choices here. She really can turn this situation around and empower herself for the better. She really does have a choice in how her life goes from here. This isn't about the person who hurt her. it's about her and her life. It isn't about blaming, because this is criminal behavior by choice on the perpetrators part, but there is responsibility to thought of here.

I personally dislike the word victim because it seems like a victim isn't allowed blame, responsibility, or agency. It's an either or situation. To say that she could have been more cautious doesn't mean it was okay to be raped or that the people who did it weren't creeps. Whether or not anything happened to her her drinking is an issue. I'm not sure why we see everything in an either or situation.

Mich, I'm so sorry if this sounds like we are blaming your friend. I think it's awesome you want to get her help and I hope that she takes you up on it. This is a hot issue for me. I have lived through many of the emotions attached to it and I can now see it from different angles. She is probably still in shock. If she is able to let it go without too much of a memory of the events.... this could be her blessing in disguise. The reality of a memory of assault is very painful and seems to me like she has a lot of stuff to work through as it is. All the best!!~Fantas~

September 9, 2009
2:10 am
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fantas
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Soofoo:

Fantas, You are absolutely wrong to say that mich (mich's friend) has no case. If she were to have a drug test and a rape kit, she may very well have a good case. Your discouragement is very disturbing.

I didn't say she doesn't have a case. She does. What she will have a very difficult time doing is proving it. Seeing as she has no recollection of it. I believe I said, she doesn't stand a chance of winning it given the circumstances given here. Unless one of the people present comes forward and the testimony is confirmed by the evidence, the only hope here of getting this person/people is if this DNA is stored somewhere in a list of suspects and it matches another test at a later time. Even then, it will only proof that similar DNA was present. A rape kit is only useful if the "victim" reports. Otherwise, they are stored, unexamined for half a year to a year then discarded.

Soofoo, direct your anger at the system that puts little value in the continued safety of women and children. How else do you explain something like that happening in a house full of people and not a report to the police? I Have learned what I'm against and for the longest time I was angry and hateful towards the system and men.

Now I accept things as they are, work towards a better future, and do what I can to systematically create policies that are beneficial to women and children and ultimately men as well. I do it in the faculty I teach at, the institutions I work and with people I meet. In doing this I have learned a great deal about the laws and policies that aren't working for us. We aren't where we were but we have a long way to go. It will have to begin with us. Hard and unfair but true nonetheless..~Peace~

September 9, 2009
2:30 am
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2BHAPPY
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Sexual assault is violent act upon a woman and it is not right...I am not blaming Mich's friend or do I see anyone blaming her either. We all believe that he should be held accountable as he took advantage of a situation...the woman was too drunk to make a decision.

So when I said she needs to be careful is just that...I think it could have happened to anyone..that is why it should serve to her as a reminder to be careful with who she gets drunk with...definitely not with a stranger..and she should have friends around to look over her if things get out of control.

We have all gotten too drunk one time or another...just good to be with people we trust during those times.

I hope she does something to get this creep off the streets so that this doesnt happen to another woman.

 

 

2bHappy

September 9, 2009
4:01 am
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Shonda
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Um Truthbtold, yes you did kind of say this - "So do drunk women deserve what they get from rapists? Or thieves?"

you said it like this "because of this ('escapade' that well, she pretty much, sort of, kind of, agreed to - on some level... - sober or not....afterall - she DID agree to the possible ramifications that over indulging in alcohol can and will most likely very well induce - right?"

If I have a drink in public or at a private home am I agreeing that I am up for grabs for someone to brutalize me? Is that how you feel every time YOU take a drink, or have in the past? I don't.

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