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MEN what are they good for?
December 14, 2001
2:32 pm
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Jaskid
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The Only Thing Men are good for is:

Breaking our Hearts!

:(Jaskid

December 14, 2001
2:33 pm
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gingerleigh
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(((((Jaskid)))))

December 14, 2001
2:37 pm
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Soven
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Well as a "man" (one day, perhaps! ;0), I can assure you that we don't serve much of a purpose, hehe. However, to say that we don't struggle like most women do is something I'm afraid to take issue with!

Most men *don't* struggle (not used in a patronizing tone) in ways that women characteristically do. This, I'd think, could be attributed to our more thickheaded, agressive demeanor (whereas the female mindset is perhaps more geared to child-rearing). However, when you get someone such as myself who's more artistic and introspective by nature, the struggle is hour by hour by hour. I don't know how many times I've felt that things were starting to fall into place only to be crushed a couple hours later.

We all struggle; it's just that the social conditioning of men forbids them to show it.

Take care, everyone's rooting for you!

December 14, 2001
2:43 pm
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strengthcourageandwisdom
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The rut is not the problem, it is the genuine distaste in your mouth you have for who ,you are rutting with.....

But please tell me what you learned.. All my housewife girlfriends ,hate their husbands too,but they tell me, there is no way in hell ,they are going to do what I am doing.

And all I know is I am in HELL now...

I was thinking with the things I have learned along the way, I'll just avoid the Lions / Tigers / Snakes (in the jungle),
and I'll be OK...
What else do I need to know...??

You can just call me SCW(strengthcourageandwisdom is way too long to type)

December 14, 2001
3:49 pm
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Molly
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SCW-----
I guess I have learned, that no one is perfect, men, man, or me. That it is a complete give and take, comprimise continium, on both ends of any relationship, the more committed the relationship, the worse the give and take, until ambivilance sets in. Doesn't matter if it is business, girl friends, kids, or spouses. That I am responsible for my own happiness, if I am in a relationshp, or not. That there is a cost for everything, and before I make a choice, that I take my time, not make emotional decisions, and really try to evaluate the consequences small and big. That I don't have to express to any one or everyone how I feel about what ever, and sometimes less said is better.( Except here which is my outlet)Realizing that my man, can't be my everything, and that we are really very different in every way, like the cat and dog, they get along, but do better with their own. That the more involved with life I am, the less pressure I put on my man, go figure. The busier I am the more he is willing to please me, now try to figure that one out. I don't have to be perfect, I can be a total self serving flake sometimes,and not be in fear. that is just a few of the things.

hell how do you live with some one forever and not hate something about them if not them, but even that has its comfort zone, and hell no they won't leave them they might have to work, and break a new one into tolorant levels, except that they know deep down in their hearts, that no one else would tolorate them!!!!!
they would have to quit most of their habits, loose most of their friends, change routines from soup to nuts, give up some of the benifits, its easier to remain, and bitch about the little things. That is why their husbands are there. The kids are most likely gone, and the embarressment of hey kids after 30 years dad and I are splits ville, so he'll be the one with the playboy bunny on his arm, and I would like you to meet Hanz, he is my massage therapist, ugh ugh boy friend, common over here kido, and sit on Grandma's knee, and meet Hanz. The other end, is after all that time, and sounds like you were married for a while, your lonely, you miss some of the bad habits too, unless it was really bad, and I have been there too. Where you can't look at your face in the mirror because you just can't spit that taste out of your mouth. Its real hard,but what is easy ?
I have a girl friend who divorced the father of her kids about the same time I did, she is about 10 years older, she had two girls as well, circumstances were slightly different, but I think we both lost sight of the total picture and put all the energy to getting away from that man. She did the same as me I had my girls hers were almost out of school, but we were not looking for any one, but found our selves connected again real soon. hers ended about the time mine should have, my second marriage makes my first marriage look like a 15 year honey moon, instead of the hell I painted it to look like. She is still single, and not happy, its that total family thing, her ex is out of state, and for Christmas she is taking his mom to church, there is something about holding on to the past
Hell its only been 14 years har har har. so what does your hell look like, mine is different day to day, har har har.

December 17, 2001
9:30 am
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lilythe
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Artist 2: I think women are brought up seeing drama as "glamourous" in a way, plus we're brough up to share and show our feelings with others. We grow up watching television and movies that show us over and over that women suffer and guys just float around trying to find a girlie to stick it to. I happen to know a good deal of men who wear their suffering hearts on the outside, you'd besurprised. You'd be amazed at how much really scares them. And your emotional ability can't really be matched by a man who has been told all his like to be the king, to not show emotion even if it's there..... Men can be (and I don't mean all men, but alot of them) very very AFRAID of women. And since they don't like being intimidated by you (even if you're not doing it on purpose) they'd rather run than face what they don't really have a handle on...... I've learned to look deeper into some of the guys I have dated, and try to see what's going thru their minds....Its not easy because the 2 sexes are trained to handle different stressor in diferent ways, plus I take my parents for example..... My mother tried to train me to be the "old fashioned girl", grooming me to be the next Carol Brady...... but luckily my father gave me more freedom to be what I wanted, especially in relationships.... now If I meet an "old fashioned guy" and act in my own independent way, I paint the picture of myself as a control-freak-bitch (or something of thet nature)..... You feel attacked by the differences you find between you and the men you meet, I have too, but it comes down to realizing you are who you are, not everyone will react to you the way they ought to. And the more you look at a guy for who he IS and not what he's "supposed to be" you'll save yourself alot of heartache in your search for a good guy..... You gotta find someone who can keep up with you, not someone you are always trying to follow and wish into perfection......

December 17, 2001
9:57 am
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artist 2
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Thanks Lilythe. Ever feel though that there are very few men, if they even exist, who can handle your independence? Are there any who will not be intimidated by you? And, ever feel the only man - your dad who taught you to be independent - the only man who really knows you and cannot be scared by you? I sometimes feel that way. It seems rare for me to find a man who even comes close. Hey, maybe that's my problem - do I have an oedipus complex? Or, do I have expectations that are too high? Do I demand too much of the men I meet?

December 18, 2001
8:09 am
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artist 2
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Dammit! Why do they do that?

December 18, 2001
8:37 am
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artist
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They don't--we do.

December 18, 2001
9:45 am
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lilythe
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Artist 2: YES. I have to deal with men being too intimidated by my independence. I used to view it as a blessing, there I was the most "non-clingie" female known to man, and then I caught the backlash from it......i.e. Men not thinking I was "available" emotionally, or getting to scared I could easily find "someone else". Fact of the matter is that I totally dig solid relationships. I WANT ONE! But men can get just as scared and self-conscious as women can. And they are schooled by society at a very young age NOT to be visibly upset about it.. I guess the way I look at it is that if someone can't "handle" me being me and finally thinking of my own happiness for a change, instead of going along with whatever comes my way, they really aren't that good for me to begin with. I mean, a relationship can bring about changes in 2 people to get along even better, but I can't sacrafice the person I am to be what someone (usually temporarily) wants me to be. If a man is too intimidated, well, he's not going to challenge me to be stronger about myself....he could bring me down.... And YES you are right in thinking there aren't alot of men who are open to a strong self-minded girl, b/c they were brought up to expect things from us that may have been inspired by some old-fashion "rule" about how men and women are supposed to be.... I agree with the idea of reading "Men are From Mars....." You'll learn a very different perspective of our differences, and hopefully stop feeling like you are to blame for just being who you are. Keep Strong, kid, you are working on you first.

December 18, 2001
10:01 am
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strengthcourageandwisdom
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Molly,
This may sound strange, but he is a nice guy now. The way i feel is from all the years of him being a jerk. We have been together almost 19 years , married 13. The first years of living together he wa svery non-committal, and kept going back to his exes, he was also physically abusive. I left after 5 years. I stayed away a year. We got back together I became pregnant and we married about a year after the child was born. During this time , he still physically abusive, but by then I had a child ( I already had a 10 year old another from a previous relationship) , we bought a home had another child. I had tried to work and/ go back to college and during all this he either said we couldn't afford it,(we could) or he would refuse to help out with kids ( wouldn't pick them up from school, wouldn't help with anything around the house). I would always just give up, and come back home. When I worked , he would constantly berate me about household chores, or how much money I spent on clothes for work etc. He was/is also quite possesive ,my friends use to laugh at how he would call my Mom's as soon as I left the house, they stop laughing when I told him, he digs in the trash cans , looking for reciepts to see what I buy, and often follows me to the bathroom( I have no privacy). He checks my cell phone, to see who I call, and I stopped using my email at home , when I realized he was always, asking me questions about things I had written my friends on email.)When the second child was born, I had my first serious bout with depression, and had two out- of- this world panic attacks. During this time , he almost pushed me down and flight of stairs (arguing about money), I called the police, he went to jail, and never hit me again , it has been ten years.
My doctor, put me on medications, but kept insisting that I was so angry about something that depression was the only way my body could express it. I got better, and over the next several years, I have taken a class here ,and there, ( I will graduate in May)
the kids , (24,14,10) have gotten older, and I keep getting jobs that make more and more money. This last year I have told him that's it,, I want out. And now he has become a model husband, he still very controlling about money,but he takes the kids to school ,( since I have the longer commute,) and keeps saying he will do anything for me to stay. To make it short My HELL, is more the past, than the present, I feel foolish leaving now, because things seem better. When I think about leaving, ( I am so at peace, thinking of the hours spent just being ME, reading , or enjoying my kids) I use to love it when he was out of town on business!!!! But am I missing something, is this the "good part" couples have to get to after years of working on it. Or is he just changing his stripes, to keep me from leaving.

December 18, 2001
12:37 pm
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Molly
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you know this is so hard, my first husband 14 years or so married, dated for 3 years before that, REALLY acted out right after I left, then about 2 years later got it, told me I was right, and was some what a different person, he got more balance in his life, still some traits of the ass hole I left, but today what I wouldn't give to have my family intact. My second marriage, was a totall mess from day one, kept doing what ever I could to make it work since I saw my contribution and hasty exodus from the first. That landed me in depression for a few years. I finally left, which propelled my current husband into some real long term treatment, getting his physical stuff under controll, ( diabetics are like living with MPD"S or speed freaks) he also took a couple of intensive seminars for anger, and relations, he came up to retrieve me, and was indeed different. Some of that wore off right after my return, and if I hadn't had the time appart to regain my stregnth, self, as well as health, I don't know if I could have made it this far in the reconcilliation. In January it will be 2 years that I have been back, the seperation lasted 18 months, we were married 10 years. There were some relapses on both our parts,he relapsed, then trigger me, then I got a reminder of the dance, know what I mean, put my foot down, and said I love you, but love me more this time around, told him, I will leave in a heart beat, if we go back to the way we were. We have had a rough time of it, and must admit, he rises to the occasion. I am quite certain that he has narcissistic traits, if not the full on personality disorder, but the big thing here, is that when his back is against the wall, he is so codependent, that he is willing to do some work. The time that I have put into all of this crap with him, is starting to pay off. In the beginning there was physical abuse as well, but he has done so much work in that area, he really does deserve a pat on the back. Nothing in that relm like it used to be. He got it, that he learned it from his father, we have so many differences, and trust is a big thing with him, but he is getting there. He knows one thing for sure, I am not afraide to leave again. That is a whole different set of problems, but a great motivator. We have no children together, and our greatest problems are still with the kids, even though they are older now. I encouraged mine to maintain relations with their dads family, and didn't have much of a core family with this hubby, thus there is not much of an attachment for my daughters, and it hurts sometimes, and he is finally getting what I was aiming for all those years, when he left the house to visit his kids. He kept his kids seperate with his core family, so they don't have much of an attachment with me. Its just a by product of all the divorces. Those consequences you don't think about when your trying to protect them, and do what you think is the right thing.
I never recommend that a woman go back to an abuser, and I swore I would never stay with a man who abused me, but it takes two. Two to engage in that dance, two to stop the dance. I too, so very much enjoyed my time appart, no fighting, no judgement, no one else to pick up after, had some real fun with some people that helped me rediscover me, but there was also that empty feeling of failure, the memories of what we did have in the good times, and realization of all the different problems that were involved in our difficulties. he challenged me in my belief of recovery, har har har , I am a counselor. He challenged my commitment. har har har. Its been alot of work, but I can see a light with this relationship in the tunnel. I still pull out my suitcase once and a while, but there is progress, or I wouldn't still be here. With my girls today, I am not in a good place with that and do not know how to effect that relationship. there is a cost for everything. What we don't get worked out on our own, individually or as a couple we will just take it into the next relationship.

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