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Men are all cheaters. HAH.
March 18, 2005
2:00 pm
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angel4U
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Wow! This thread really sparked some energy, Cici. Seems the topic of cheating bothers many.

ShouldaaCouldaaWouldaa - I agree with mama. That was such unfair statement to make about "ugly ducklings". Maybe that's why some guys think they should cheat - their ego gets the best of them and they don't want to get stereotyped into the category you are putting non-cheaters in. Although you didn't state this was the case for women, too, I am wonddering if since women cheat too, and I'm considered pretty attractive (I'm female), would that mean that there is "something" wrong with me?

In my opinion, it's the opposite. There's something wrong with those that do cheat. Maybe I think this way because I have done alot of reading ... Some people that do this have claimed to be "sex addicts" ... they may love the person they are with, but they have this "need" to have sex all the time (kind of like those that have a need for a drink). Others claimed that there was always a fear inside them that their partner would leave them, so they always needed to have back-ups to calm the fear (I personally know a guy like this, he has to have the attention of other women all the time, and it drives his dates away). What it boiled down to was pretty similar to those with other addiction/emotional problems ... somewhere in their life something happened. Some were molested, others were neglected, some never had the opportunity to see what a "good, healthy" relationship is, some had a fear of abandonment (I'll reject you before you reject me), etc., and the fear and confusion about relationships and love lives with them all the time. I truly believe they are missing something inside themselves, whether it be self-confidence, the know-how/ability to connect with others on a more intimate/real level, fear (or simply non desire) of commitment, basic values, morals ... I can go on and on.

Ok, seems a little deep maybe, but thought I'd put another twist on all of this rather than the simple "Adam & Eve" theory.

Cici - All I can say is you seem to have learned a lesson about your ex - he is a cheater (since he was dating someone, slept with you, and lied to his girlfriend about it. And even did so in front of you!) He has no respect for you, or his girlfriend ... I don't care what his problems are (ahh, it's nice to take care of me and not worry about them) ... he's a shlump in my book and has lots of growing up to do. And I'm glad you told him to get the hell out! Next time don't be so easy (not judging here, just advising) ... holding out is the only way to tell what these guys are all about.

March 18, 2005
2:02 pm
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Anonymous
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Well said Angel.

March 18, 2005
8:11 pm
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ALADDIN
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WELL IM A MAN AND I DONT BELIEVE IN CHEATING IM BEEN CHEATING ON BY A WOMAN [MY OWN WIFE0 BUT IT DONT BEEN ALL WOMAN ARE CHEATING.IT DONT MATTER IF YOU ARE AMAN OR WOMAN IF YOU WANT TO CHEAT YOU WLL.SOME PEOPLE ONLY GET MIXUP WITH SEX OR LOVE THEY HAVE SEX CAUSE OF LOVE OTHER HAVE LOVE CAUSE OF SEX OTHER ONLY LOVE SEX AND THEM SELFS

March 18, 2005
9:06 pm
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Alegab
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Angel4U- Thank you for trying to have other people see that there are many reasons why cheating happens. You are open minded to the possibilities. Yes, Sex/Love addiction does exist. It is not a joke. People have gotten to the point that they can't deal with it and give up and even commit suicide. I personally know of one such person. He was sober for quite a while and then started acting out again. He gave up on life and killed himself.

Speaking from personal experience I am a Love Addict. Believe me it is a DIS EASE. I come from a disfunctional family, was abused sexually/physically as a child. I am constantly looking for the love and affection that i have been missing most of my life. First I must find it in myself by nurturing and taking care of ME. I keep repeating the same pattern, what I didn't get as a child I am still not getting from affairs.
I married a man who is a "nice man" but cannot be there for me emotionally and be demonstrative of love and affection. Where do I stand?
Chosing loosers to have affairs with who are selfish and think of one thing only. Right now I am involved with someone who says "i care for you very deeply." I want to be accepted at no matter what cost and be told that he loves me. The only thing he says is "I care for you very deeply." The last time I saw me and I asked him "again" do you love me? He said please don't aske me anymore if I love you. I can say I care very deeply for my next door neighbor or my dog. He is also married but " supposedly has alot missing in his marriage." What he doesn't get from her he gets from me but its totally unbalanced. If he were to leave his wife he would have too much to loose. By cheating he thinks he has "entitlement". I am not using a cop out by saying that I am an addict. As Angel has pointed out there are reasons why "some" people do what they do. Don't think for a minute that I am happy with being with another man who only gives me crumbs and left overs. Yes there is a payoff- getting the temporary affection and attention. I pay a very high price for that. I am happy temporarily but the "crash" going back home is devestating.

I am in a 12 step program (SLAA) in I am very happy I found such a place. This past Sunday this particular meeting place celebrated its 17th year of a place for other people who have the same addiction come and share their agony and despair. I am also in therapy. I am doing the best I can under the circumstances.

I hope the people that have no clue as to why people "cheat" perhaps could see another perspective.

Alegab

March 18, 2005
9:53 pm
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peacesoul
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Alegab....will all due respect to our issues. Sex /love addictions or any addictions ARE NOT a disease. Cancer, diabetes etc are diseases.
Addictions are a choice.
As long as we call them a disease, we take the responsibility away from ourselves and our issues.

I'm sorry, my ex is an true addict in every sense of the word and I refuse to let him off the hook. It is his CHOICE to have addictions, not something that is out of his control.

We do not choose cancer or other physical/mental illnesses, but we do chose to take drugs, love bad poeple and addictions.
Addictions are a weakness, we with any addictions are weak, we are not ill !!!

Just my opinion.....

March 18, 2005
10:11 pm
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cuthul
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Cici

Well, have to say you were part of the whole thing too. But us guys are stupid at times. I think he has a harder road of it, but it does suck for the other gal.

Hang in there.

March 18, 2005
10:16 pm
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Alegab
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Peace- I respect your opinion, it is true that we must take responsibility for our actions and also recognize that there are consequences. BUT.... it is NOT A WEAKNESS, A CHARACTER FLAW OR UNWILLNINGNESS TO CHANGE. Yes people can be cured but it is not easy. I know that for the people that are involved with an addict their live's are turned up side down. 12 Step meetings exist for family members of people with addictions.

If its of any comfort to you, and you would like to educate yourself about addictions as I said there are meetings and there are plenty of books in libraries and book stores.

Good luck to you.

Alegab

March 18, 2005
10:28 pm
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chickyfighter
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To whoever says that addiction is not a disease, I have to differ, coming from a medical stand point addictions are a disease. As a Christian I do have a problem w/the 12 step program theory saying that we are powerless to any addiction b/c I believe that what bible says that all weapons formed against us shall not proper and that we can do all things through Christ. Alot of us did not even know we had an addiction (in my case to love/to a person) until we got educated on that. The fact is that the symptoms of emotional unhealth eventually, when it is too much for our body to handle, do become somatic and physical symptoms appear. Psychiatric diseases and people w/these have been shuned enough in our society so let's not be ignorant to this and become more educated instead. I hope I did not step on anyone's toes, not my intention, just sharing correct knowledge.

March 18, 2005
10:30 pm
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sdesigns
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alegab:

I have to agree w/ peacesoul re: addictions vs actual physical disease. I first read the same opinion given by Dr. Laura Schessinger. She said that addicts claim an addiction is a disease to take the responsibility off of themselves. Saying an addiction is not a character flaw? A love addiction where both are cheating on their spouses as well as their families? Then what is it? Continuing in a behavior that is morally wrong and can potentially hurt a lot of innocent people? I know you struggle w/ you relationship alegab- I've been reading your posts for months now. I'm not going to say anything else about it.

March 18, 2005
11:06 pm
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Alegab
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Chicky- thank you for clarifying the facts about addiction. I am not here to convince anyone in believing what addiction is. We are all entitled to opinions but, there are also facts. I can understand that many people have been hurt by someone because of their distructive behavior.

For anyone who is interested in knowing the twelve steps of S/L addiction God is the most important Higher Power who can restore us to sanity.

Here are the 12 steps of SLAA:

1. We admitted we were powerless over sex and love addiction- that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. M

March 18, 2005
11:12 pm
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Alegab
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SORRY I ACCIDENTLY PRESSED THE SEND KEY.
12 STEPS CONTINUED.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contanct with a Power greater than ourselves, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to sex and love addicts, and practice these principles in all ereas of our lives.

Again I say, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I know what my problem is and I am trying my best one day at a time, putting one foot in front of the other and taking baby steps to overcome my destructive behavior and addiction.

God Bless You All
Alegab

March 18, 2005
11:23 pm
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chickyfighter
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Alegab, I posted out of ethical belief to the mental health profession, however, I am not trying to be mean to you, and since I am on here as another love avoidant/addict only, I will voice my personal non professional opinion. I will say that I think you may be hiding behind the "addiction" to excuse your behavior.
I am not judging you but personally it is easy to hide behind that diagnosis, and that is why alot of people who already see addiction as a non medical issue, say what they say.
Have you read any books? I pray that you don't have any children. I am reading one that is called" Facing Love Addiction" I suggest you read it, and don't do yourself or your family a diservice, and get better, that must be our first priority. God bless!

March 18, 2005
11:48 pm
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Worried_Dad
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First I want to say that I feel sad that the firey and intelligent Cici who started this thread felt compelled to leave because she sees us as too old.boring.square whatever to relate to her. She may be correct, but still I miss her, and hope she retuens from time to time to fan the flames.

Meanwhile, I think that this thread has demonstrated that sexaul infidelity is not particularly confined to either the male or the female gender.

Every human being is susceptible to human frailty.

We have discovered a very interesting subject here, though, namely what is a disease and what is not a disease.

We are asking this question about a range of problematic conditions from alcoholism, to sex addiction, to..whatever.

I am approaching the question as a clinician and scientist, and it still baffles me, and you know what, it baffles scientists and doctors who are much, much smarter than me...and I'm pretty clever.

The question "what is a disease" or is this or that thing a disease is a very, very good question that can't be answered with knee jerk answeres, bigotry, or....well, it might not be an answerable question at all....

March 19, 2005
12:04 am
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ALADDIN
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I THINK IT ALL CAME DOWN ON CHOICES,IF I HEAR I GOT CANCER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT I WLL ASKED WHY ME.IF I SLLEEP SLEEP WITH MY FRIENDS WIFE OR STEEL A CAR I WILL HEAR A LITTLE VOICE IN MY HEAD ;ITS WRONG' NOBODY WILL KNOW BUT I STILL GO ON THEN I MADE A CHOICE.,AND DONT SAY I HAVE A DICEASE OR SICK YOU ONLY MADE A SICK CHOICE.I CAN BE WRONG BUT THATS THE WAY I SEE IT.LUKELY WE DONT ALL THIN AND FEEL ALIKE.

March 19, 2005
12:26 am
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sdesigns
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You're right WD, top experts in the medical field can't agree on addiction vs disease. I guess everyone's belief comes from their own perspective. My point is that I don't think continued and repeated infidelity can be excused by saying its due to love addiction and that its is a disease. Especially when children ARE involved. Doesn't matter if its a man or a woman.

March 19, 2005
1:13 am
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Worried_Dad
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I'm just trying to open the subjects up. Of course I have my own opinions, which I am holding at bay momentarily for the sake of good conversation.

I was actually reall thinking of the drug addiction thing.

Drug addiction is something that has been modeled in animals. Some pretty horrific experiments have been done with rats where they hook the critters up to IV tubes that gibve them does of cocaine when they press a lever.

It turns out the rats prefer to press the lever for cocaine than for food, and will willingly starve rather than be dprived of their cocain. JUST LIKE PEOPLE!

I don't think those rats with their eeetsy bitsy little cerebral cortices are making some kind of moral choice about should they coke themselves up OR should they remain healthy, productive members of rat society. No, something is going on chemically in their little brains that leads them to indulge in self-destructive behavior.

Has anyone here ever read M. Scott Peck's book called "People of the Lie?" He is a psychiatrist who actually tries to frame a medical definition for "evil," and he proposes that "evil" might be a disease condition that should be studied scientifically and looked on compassionately by the healing professions as a disease that might be amenable to treatment oneday.

Mind you, Scott Peck is 10 times the Christian that I will ever be, but he kind of has a point there...

I'm no mind reader, and I'm certainly not God. I wish people with the "dark triad" personality disorders would just, I dunno, get lost, fall off a cliff, migrate to the middle east, burst into flames or something...But sheesh, what if there could actually be a vaccine or a pill or something that would fix 'em....

I'm thinking of the story of ...whatsisname, Phinneas Gauge, the railroad worker about 100 years ago who had an explosive charge send a stell rod through his skull. He was a nice guy, but the rod through his noggin knocked out parts of the brain known to control emotional response, social inhibition and so forth. After the accident, he became, overnight, a drinking, cursing, violent, irresponsible son of a bitch.

Maybe Scott Peck is right.

But I guess I digress a bit from the subject of "Who cheats, and why do they do it?"

March 19, 2005
1:34 am
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I remember when they started using litium for Bipolar (manic/depressive, back then) The story was about a talented young artist who was extreme. So they put him on litium. He leveled and became a functioning member of society again. And never produced another piece of art. The author of the article stated that she missed the old artist, with all his problems, and was just saddened to see what he had become. Several of his friends said the same thing.

If you put rats in a limited sapce, with more than enough food and water and sunshine but no expansion space, they will eventually overpopulate and overcrowd. Maintain the food at a certain set point just under the necesary amount. Then their behaviour turns to canabalism and rampant homosexul behaviour, to the point of reducing the population. Interesting study, can't remember where it was from. Saw it decades ago.

Some correlary to humans, but we are humans. Rats respond to stimuli, humans can decide if they will or will not respond. Not everyone pressed the shock button, you know. Skinner was smart, but I sometimes can't see the connection. I know he does, but I don't.

Difference between an human and an animal. An animal will gnaw off the leg caught in the trap and get away. The human will gnaw off his leg, then wait for the hunter to come back and kill him.

Had a coworker that worked with Ted Bundy for a while in CA. She said he was so nice. Late at night, they would be the only ones there and he would walk her to her car and wait until she left. You know, watched over her, like any gentleman.

This human stuff is just too complicated. human behaviour, like my posts, never seems to make sense.

Just felt like talking.

Gully

March 19, 2005
5:02 am
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willitgetbetter
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Woo Hoooo, way to go guys. I've never read such a hot headed threas as this on this site. I'm gonna take a break for a while, it scares me that some of the usually rational people here can get so fired up and hostile. I thought I could come here and feel free to say what i wanted without fear of judgment or criticism. Not sure anymore! I love a debate but not a fight!

March 19, 2005
6:36 am
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bonita1
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WD,
"As far as men inventing Playboy, porn and strip clubs...you say that as if it were a bad thing."

You mean its not a bad thing? It's a good thing?

It's disturbing to me to realize that many refuse to believe that porn, etc. feeds an addiction that destroys lives and families. Case in point, Ted Bundy-heavily into porn, another case in point- my first marriage- ex husband heavily into porn-molested his daughter.
Bottom line- porn is a bad thing. Good things do not destroy ever, ever, ever. (and stuff like prescription drug abuse is not in same category-- porn affects the spirit and alters the mind.)

People can try to excuse it, say it doesn't affect all men the same- making them into mass murderers or pedophiles, but point is it is not uplifting to the spirit, doesn't make men see women as human beings and not as a place to put it, creates unrealistic fantasies that get in the way of building real relationships between men and women.

Sorry, but I have issues with porn (it destroyed my family and other's families that I personally know) and I couldn't go to sleep tonight without addressing it. It worried me.

Just a worried mom,

Bonita

March 19, 2005
8:43 am
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peacesoul
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Alegab....I have read more books on addictions that you can even imagine. I have educated myself fully on addictions so I am not talking out of my butt here.

The 12 step programs were designed by addicts or people with co addictions therefore these programs are bias. The groups were formed b/c addicts and co addicts need to know "why". They can not find a "reason" for addictions so they claim it must be an illness.

Yes addictions effect our mental health but that does not make it an illness.

My ex had a choice to stop fucking every women that walked in his path, he had a choice to stop putting coke up his nose. He also had a choice to have a wonderful loving life with me, but he chose his addictions. This was his choice, not his disease.

I agree that the brain chemistry of addicts are different. But I love chocolate and shopping and my ex hated it, so my brain chemistry is not the same as his.

Willgetbetter....this is not an agressive post, this is people talking about their opinions and feelings. This sort of interactions helps us grow and learn. No one is pursecuting one another.

I respect everyones opinion here and have learned lots from addicts and co addicts on this site.

My opinion...Addicts are weak. They are afraid to feel pain. As soon as they feel any morsel of pain, they dope up with their drugs of choice. I have been through hell in my life and I chose to sit in my pain and go to therapy, read books and just cry and work it out. That is my choice to get over pain....It's all about CHOICE !!!

I made the choice to stay with my ex even though I knew he was "bad". I did not want to feel the pain of losing him. I was weak, that was my choice.

God Bless you all for enlightening me

March 19, 2005
8:49 am
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peacesoul
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one more thing...I believe in GOD whole heartedly, but God is not going to help you get over your sex addicts (or any addictions). You have to feel sick enough and yucky enough on your own to make it stop.

It's healthy to have hope, but our lives are not going to change by hoping it's going to change. You have to pull up your sleeves and do the work.

I went with men who were addicts and now I am SICK enough that I have made the choice to NEVER be in this yucky position again. I made the choice.

March 19, 2005
8:50 am
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peacesoul
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Read Chicky fighters new post

"Once we wake up there is no turning back to denial"

March 19, 2005
9:23 am
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peacesoul
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Alegab you say

"Peace- I respect your opinion, it is true that we must take responsibility for our actions and also recognize that there are consequences. BUT.... it is NOT A WEAKNESS, A CHARACTER FLAW OR UNWILLNINGNESS TO CHANGE"

Being a cheater is a HUGE character flaw. Cheaters only think about themselves, not about the wives they are hurting.

You being a cheater yourself (cheating with a married man makes you a cheater)is not an illness or a real disease, it's a weakness and a huge character flaw.

I have no sympathy for men/women that destroy others lives.

My mom was abused in EVERY way growing up, but you know what, she grew up a made the choice never to be like the people who raised her.
She is still married to my Dad (45 yrs) and raised 3 smart women.
She made the choice to want a better life. She did not hide behind her unbringing. She never belly ached about how bad she had it growing up. She pulled up her sleeves and did the work

March 19, 2005
11:57 am
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angel4U
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peacesoul,

I am with you all the way on this statement:

"My opinion...Addicts are weak. They are afraid to feel pain. As soon as they feel any morsel of pain, they dope up with their drugs of choice. I have been through hell in my life and I chose to sit in my pain and go to therapy, read books and just cry and work it out. That is my choice to get over pain....It's all about CHOICE !!! ... I made the choice to stay with my ex even though I knew he was "bad". I did not want to feel the pain of losing him. I was weak, that was my choice."

I think it is why I have a hard time walking away from addicts or otherwise "bad" people ... I know they are in pain and I try to show them they don't have to be. But when there actions are hurting me, and they refuse to change, thankfully I have learned that it is ok to walk away and take care of me. I learned this the same way you did, I allowed myself to "feel the pain" and cry ... and I read books, etc, etc. to help me understand how to detach with love and take care of me.

btw - Hats of to your mom! She sounds like a wonderful woman, and so do you!

March 19, 2005
12:14 pm
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I know wew have all gone thru much, but I am hopeful that there are some good decent men out there as I know there are right here.

Actually, if I could find a couple men here that have two functioning brain cells that has a proper synapse triggering, I would be happy. At least the men here at AAC hae given me some hope.

But, being real here, there are quite a few women who cheat as well!!! Besides, there are many other things we have encountered here that can be far worse than cheating. I am probably biased, but I figure cheating on a marriage exceeds cheating in a relationship where a committment of mariage has not been agreed upon. But, hey, just my opnion and still bitter after getting a divorce after 17 years of marriage and together of 22 years.

Oy vey, now I have stirred a hornet's nest here am sure!

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