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Man's Search for Meaning
November 11, 1999
8:12 am
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kitten
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Cici,
Have to ask you a question. I have to do a paper for my marital class...thinking about doing one on intimacy problems and the effect on divorce. Sound good? Do you know of any sites where I can get info? I've been looking, but so far no luck! The semester is almost over and there is sooooo much to do, yet!! thanks a million.

November 11, 1999
11:26 am
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gees kitten, thanks for sharing, but I thought the reading was about YOU, not him....please try to focus on yourself girl.

November 11, 1999
11:28 am
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also, I dont want to hurt you kitten, but I must point out, that you refer to him often as "my lover" but I dont see an ounce of love coming from him.
🙁

November 11, 1999
12:57 pm
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Tears,
Ouch! Well, he is loving...we managed to do a lot of talking this past Sunday night. This may sound strange, but he is a male version of me. And I'm a female version of him. I'm not saying his needs come before mine...they don't. I mean, gosh, I'm dealing with so many things right now--school, kids, my sanity, my dying father(not in that order). He is actually about fourth on the list. If he were a woman I'd want to extend the same loving support that I'm giving now. Everything WE(here) talk about he has experienced, only society has trained him to bottle up.The man thing ya know. Honey, I am getting better...it's just slow! She said a lot about me and you all--I had just gotten off the phone with a friend who had been asking about the HIM part so that's all I included. Anyway...she(the Queen of Cards) told me this is an important time in my life. Up till now I've hung mostly with men and have other lessons to learn. He is not going anywhere, but these lessons are mine and I have to do them by myself. Well, in a way. This is where you come in. She said I've made contact with a group of women who are looking into my soul as well as exposing theirs. For some karmic reason we have this thing to learn together. That we will learn the truth of love. She even described a few of you all...with details. This lesson we are learning is going to radically change our lives. Alot more was said, but I'll spare you. So, sweety, there is change in the air...things are looking very good! There is one other thing I want to share: A famous feminist author was talking about relationships. She said when Aretha Franklin sings from her gut about her man we all applaud and say "what passion", but if regular women on the street talk about their men it's called co-dependency. Maybe there has to be a middle ground. I know this is going to open up a can of worms!
BUT...how many of us are comfortable with our passion-
and-I don't mean just sexual? The big thing about passion is the strength of belief and the ability to move with it. 'Cause passion is a ebbing and flowing thing--it can't always stay at full tilt. We have to learn to roll with it. Enough of me. How are you? You seem to be posting earlier, are you at home now? Wish I could give you a big hug...you're a life saver. That came up,too!

November 11, 1999
1:40 pm
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thats so nice kitten, we are doing real soul work here.
I am beginning to feel a lot of stuff now, feelings......whoa feelings....
cant eat to suppress em, cant deny my depression, cant go on without em.....
lol
feelings
Man I went to the library yesterday and got a ton of books for my children and myself.
I read to them every night, and often most days.
I love to read and write.
I took out books on things that were important to me.
I love horses, I have wanted to own an arabian for years. I know how to ride arabians but i have never read how possible it is to actually own one.
I may board one at first and then bring it home. I have a couple acres of pasture here.
ahhh my passions. ahhh my life is changing.....its bloody hard to do this alone, but im not really alone. I have faith in myself ( pretty much, still a ways to go) and in my higher power/god, I feel him/her with me so stong, and that I am on the right path, you know. I am finally listening to my heart.

November 11, 1999
5:04 pm
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Kitten.

Referring to your posting on 6-NOV-99:

Have I ascended to a higher plane? No! Have I been there temporarily? I believe so in prolonged meditation; many times. Could I bring absolute knowledge of that 'reality' back into this earthly plane and my conscious contextual memory? No!

How do I function on a daily basis? I am capable of lust, anger, greed, etc like anyone else. Recently, I let my sister 'push some buttons' in me. The consequences her irrationality have 'serious' ramifications for my aged father's welfare. Even though I understand it, I became quite frustrated with her irrationality and manipulation. As life so often does, it tested me in the area of my greatest weaknesses. The night following my anger and fear arousal, I had another visit from my 'ever present friend of the night'. My 'spectral friend' is the often repeated and vivid nightmare experience of my own death. Prior to this, I had drifted away from my daily meditation practices. I had yet again been ensnared by the 'drama' of life.

My entrapment by the illusory drama of life was described so succinctly by Rumi in the following lines from his poem, "One-Handed Basket Weaving."

"God has allowed some magical reversal to occur,
so that you see the scorpion pit
as an object of desire,
and all the beautiful expanse around it,
as dangerous and swarming with snakes.

This is how strange your fear of death
and emptiness is, and how perverse
the attachment to what you want."

Since that episode, every day I arise at about 4.30 a.m. for about an hour's meditation. In my meditation, the drama of life fades almost into insignificance. I then 'see' only 'Self' and 'self' merging. After meditation, the 'drama' in my life seems like a series of interactions between 'selfs' in the giant 'sand pit' of life; all encompassed by the 'Self'. In effect the whole cosmos seems to reduce to Self, self and the drama of life. Even demarcation lines between them seem blurred. My negative emotions seem to be non-existent; I feel a fantastic sense of peace and well being. Temporarily, I seem to have lost the sense of separation from the universe. Does it last? Hmmmm. I soooo... easily get caught up again with the illusory drama of life; then death becomes my dreaded enemy again instead of a visit from a timely and 'familiar' friend.

As a consequence of the illusion of the drama, I see all my daily striving as a continuing attempt to forestall the last inevitable visit of my nocturnal 'friend'. Why? Because this descending veil of my limited conscious awareness prevents me from constantly 'seeing' my true eternal self. I fear the loss of this so limited self that I think I am. I fear non-existence; yet I have momentary experiences of eternity. Of this fibre the drama is woven. I strive to be a One-Handed Basket Weaver; the self and Self seamlessly weaving the drama as One.

November 11, 1999
5:11 pm
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Cici. Re: Your 9-Nov-99 posting. -
Yessss!
You said, "It's that instantaneous ability to see yourself in another...in that greater consciousness." - Voila!A blurring of all distinctions; the momentary death of duality. Just self, Self and the Drama. Oh! but that it could last! An eternal I-Thou dancing within the 'It'.

On striving to get beyond the duality of our perceptions - that is perceptions of separateness, of self and the other - you said, "Beyond that is something greater that we must always strive to achieve."
But then, if we all achieve that magnificent state of samhadi, of jeevan mukti, what would happen to our precious illusory 'sand pit', maya, and our individual 'realities', all 6 billion of them? Only the infinite 'Self' would be left; not that, not that; only Thou who are not that!:)

November 11, 1999
5:20 pm
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Tears.
There is a Christian hymn that starts with the words, "God is listening in my heart, He and I are (O)ne. .." In what sense is this meant? Literally or metaphorically? Did the Christian hymn writer unconsciously get in contact with a higher self in writing those words? Did the writer realise what Christ realised about our true nature? What do you think?

November 11, 1999
5:33 pm
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Tez,
In a practical sense then...could those periodic bits of true oneness be a reminder of what exists in Love's womb? I mean, just like anything else, do we begin to accept life--take it for granted,only to realize there is something else out there. And, when we return to the womb of Love, has our time on earth merely been a lesson to help us appreciate life THERE?(womb) Part of the experience of light and dark, for they are the same
just variant shades. Okay, so I ramble, but do you get the jist? Everything is a cycle, why not life. Maybe in the greater sceme of things our time here is a blink of an eye--long enough to see the other side. And what is it that they say about fear? Spirit brings our greatest fear to us so that we may embrace it and move on? Peace

November 12, 1999
11:01 am
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Tez -

I think about Buddhist ideology...we are all in the process, but at different stages of achieving elightenment (that eventual loss of self into the greater consciousness). So...ta da! Wouldn't it be nice if we all floated around, yogi style, giving ominous-sounding pronouncements about the nature of absolute truth and reality? Om......

Ha ha. Forgive me, I've got the most severe medicine head you could ever imagine. Congestion (uh-oh...are we talking about nasal congestion or KARMIC congestion?!?!) kept me up all night and non-drowsy severe cold and flu medicine is making me loopy. Then again, karmic congestion might just be making me loopy.

November 12, 1999
12:05 pm
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bless you cici, we can be concious, spiritual beings without ever chanting or doing yogic postures.
All we need to do is remind ourselves that we need not be offended by others actions, for they are on their own path for THEM and we are on ours, it is up to us to set an example of non ego ruled self and accept and love others despite of their supposed "flaws" ( our judgments ) We cant judge a flower for not being the color we would like it to be, accept and fall back into the sacred self that is always there with us...we are never alone

November 12, 1999
6:34 pm
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Cici.
Hope your "severe medicine head" is much better by now.

You said, "Wouldn't it be nice if we all floated around, yogi style, giving ominous-sounding pronouncements about the nature of absolute truth and reality? Om...... " I'm not so sure that it would be very nice at all. It seems that the life essence has a drive towards diversity. It seems that the experiential spectrum is very wide if not infinite. We seem to crave permanence, yet we very easily become bored with repetition and demand 'newness'. We are so paradoxical.

Ah! Karma rears its ugly head yet again; ViKarma, SuKarma and AKarma. I am really not sure that it is so. But I am very open minded about that issue. It seems to presume a blind judicial "Newtonian" type law. Is it our hunger for justice that precipitates the concept?

November 12, 1999
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Kitten.
You posited, "could those periodic bits of true oneness be a reminder of what exists in Love's womb?" Could well be that. Maybe we are able, at some unconscious level, to tap into that "womb" of ocean.

On the issue of accepting life so readily: some years ago now, I killed a lamb and butchered it to feed my family. After that, I felt an abhorrence for destroying such a marvelous creation. I remembered my military training and the conditioned dehumanizing of the 'enemy'to the status of a cochroach. From then on the thought of blowing the brains out of a human being because he was designated as the enemy by some politicians, seemed totally repugnant. Now, I have qualms about killing anything even ants and cochroaches. Yet, 'life' on earth depends upon the fight for survival, pain and ultimate 'death'. What sort of a God would design such an existence?

That such a fantastic entity as a human being could emanate out of the debris of the 'big bang'without any input from an 'absolute intelligence' or 'womb' seems totally incredible. The more one learns about the human and animal physiology and neurobiolology the more staggering is the prospect of accepting random chance as the 'womb'.

"...has our time on earth merely been a lesson to help us appreciate life THERE?(womb)" That thought would imply that when "THERE" we are in a state of ignorance of our wellbeing. It also implies 'lesson giver'. We then are in the position of giving meaning to our life experiences based on the 'outcome' of learning something in order that... But this leads to another question. Why doesn't a loving 'Womb' bear a perfect prodgeny that knows all without having to learn anything through suffering? I have trodden this path of reasoning and questioning of myself many times. It eventually always seems to lead to the same conclusion; that each experience must have intrinsic value in and of itself. Put another way, each one or two second long conscious awareness of thoughts and feelings occuring in working memory must have infinite value to a Higher Consciousness or "Womb" - as you put it. If it has only subjective value then from, an absolute sense, it really has none. Life then becomes a tradgedy. In such a case, Auschwitz has no meaning.

"Everything is a cycle, why not life." Why not indeed. But still the question persists; why?

November 12, 1999
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Tears.
You said, "it is up to us to set an example of non ego ruled self and accept and love others despite of their supposed "flaws" ( our judgments ). I would suggest that if and when one transcends the 'self', ego, sense of separatedness,body consciousness, etc then all 'offence', 'judgements' and 'needs to set examples' seem totally irrelevant. That has been my experience in deep meditation. However 'egolessness' is only one part of the experiential spectrum. It seems that the illusions of the 'ego' provide yet another. Are they any less valid? What do you think?

November 12, 1999
11:30 pm
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Tez,
Allow me to play devil's advocate and say: why not? Maybe because much of my education has been in the field of prose and poetry, I am intrigued with the idea of "nothingness". We need to accept our role in life and the concept of no thing ness. We are spokes on a wheel, all churning the same way. I suspect in some way you have to have a concrete reason for life. Does it make the journey anyless enjoyable if you know what is at the end? Stevens said in a poem:"Death is the mother of beauty, hence from her, alone, shall come fulfilment of our dreams and our desires". That brings me back to the idea that death is really birth and visa versa. You know, as the tide comes in, so too it must return to the sea. Who said the womb of Spirit has to be perfect? Maybe lessons are a part of that. Maybe once you stop learning, whether it's here or there,you truly die. I've been told by doctors that noses and ears keep growing; parts of the body dealing with the senses. Something to let us know we are meant to keep "growing" in a "life without end?" (a primitive
message?) And as to your what kind of God would allow such a thing...it is man who has killed, it is you who swallowed your military training, not God. I was raised military...I have seen things from childhood on that most never saw. Even tho' I dearly love animals I would butcher an animal to feed my babies. The animal gave up "life" so that "children" could "live". A sheep or lamb, perhaps...sound familiar? What if, my dear Tez, it isn't so complicated as we might make it? What if it's simply, to coin that tired old phrase " going with the flow?" I do know when I over analyze things I become stuck in the mire of my fear...I am trying to just go with it...and am finding things a bit healthier. By the way, do you have a tendency to masculinize God? The all knowing "Father?" And I'm talking on a gut level, step away from the intellectual
level...we all have both of those. Think about it...

November 13, 1999
10:50 am
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Does anyone buy into the idea that the Missing Link is alien, and that we are the product of intelegent cross-breeding?

If so, this would not only be the missing link in our evolution, but the missing link between science and religion.

...I don't know. This perspective makes me look at our history as a kind of long, cruel joke.

Anybody...?

November 14, 1999
4:37 pm
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Kitten.
You asked the rhetorical question, " Does it make the journey anyless enjoyable if you know what is at the end? " This would be using an 'outcome' (end) to justify the 'process' (means - i.e. "enjoyable journey")

I find no necessity or imperative to find meaning in the experiencing of joy; it seems to be sufficient unto itself. However 'suffering' is a whole different matter. I do feel the need to find meaning in suffering, just as Frankl did; that is, I need to find meaning in 'suffering' not based on the 'outcome' of that suffering but on the 'process' of that suffering.

Working from a philosophical perspective that the 'end' justifies the 'means' is fraught with difficulties; Hitler did this. Finding meaning and justification for the 'end' or 'outcome' by reference to the 'process' or experience is far more likely to lead to finding a logically sound meaning for the undesirable 'end'. One can then see 'death' as just another 'process' as opposed to trying to justify it as an 'end'.

Further, it seems that the sequence of life's illusory events are 'effects' that become 'causes' for yet other 'effects'. Life seems to be just one continuing 'process' that is made up of transitory cause-effect combinations in a gigantic 'tree' structure. It seems far easier to seek meaning in this abstract view of life's combined cause-effects or 'processes' than to try to fing meaning in a myriad of isolated 'effects' or 'ends'.

If one looks for the justification of Christ's suffering on the cross in the outcome, then one must face the prospect of a horrendous, torturing, god; a god who was incompent as a designer of humanity and who demanded the blood sacrifice of a god-man to make up for his mistake.

However, if one looks for the justification in the 'process', the suffering, then one sees that Christ died on the cross as he lived; even in dying, he was consistent in living by a process called 'love'; Christ's 'end' or death was justified by the 'means' by which he lived. Christ obviously found great 'intrinsic' meaning in his suffering; for the 'outcomes' were surely a disaster. He preached living just for the 'day' (perhaps he meant the moment or process). Mankind is further away from the Christian ideals than ever.

PS. Please don't think that I am preaching Christianity at you;I am not a Christian. As is practiced today, Christianity seems to be 'outcome' focussed.

November 14, 1999
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Ubermensch.
Edgar Cayce, the 'sleeping prophet', would probably have agreed with the concept of alien intervention into the evolutionary processes of life on earth.

One could even loosely interpret Adam and Eve's 'sin' of eating the apple from the tree of 'knowledge of good and evil'as a methaphorical representation of copulation between stranded aliens and lower life forms (primates?) as stated in Cayce's writings.

However, when it comes to finding meaning in our suffering in life, I fail to see the origins of our species as having any real relevance. If God made all things, then He must have made the aliens also; nothing changes, except science's view of the evolutionary process. Do you see something that I am missing?

November 14, 1999
6:58 pm
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Tez, dear
Who says there has to be an end? Maybe I implied the journey has to come to an end, but in my heart I do not believe anything ends. My mother is dead, but she is still here, with me. ETC, ETC. And in the case of Frankl...isn't it perception--of suffering? From my readings I don't believe he felt he suffered. I guess I beleive suffering implies the end of joy and happiness and the beginning of something else. But joy doesn't dissapear when suffering moves in. Beauty was in the hills where Frankl toiled...he saw that, felt that. Arghhhhhh. I must excuse myself. I am a passionate terrier with a heavy bone. A bit difficult to carry, yet I'm unwilling to let go. Let me think about this some more. But in the meantime let me ask a question...do I detect a great deal of cynacism or anger? Perhaps we need to come up with a definition of suffering. One that can be accepted by most.

November 15, 1999
10:46 am
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As far as karma is concerned, you know, the whole "what goes around comes around idea...I don't consider it to be so much about law. I always envisioned it as a sort of boomerang thing. So there's never any real judgement per se, there's just you and your actions creating reverberations that eventually get back to you. These can be positive or negative in your perception, but they are just different waves.

November 16, 1999
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Kitten.
You said, "I must excuse myself. I am a passionate terrier with a heavy bone." Speaking for myself, I relish your responses. There is absolutely no need to hold back on or excuse anything that you write. I understand that miscommunication is prevalent and I am very robust most of the time. If you called me a 'f..king idiot' I might 'bite' but I'm not sure. I would probably laugh!

Cynicism and anger? Not intended or felt as I wrote the posts. I spend a lot of time reflecting on life and its issues. I do a lot of counselling - I prefer to call it 'sharing' - and am constantly confronted with suffering humanity. Many times I am asked "Why"? I come across a people who are disillusioned with the "propaganda" of the western religions. I myself have trodden this path and journeyed to India and lived in an ashram only to find another lot of propaganda. I have committed myself to thinking for myself. These discourses on this BB and others have stimulated a lot more questioning in me of what life is all about. Frankl's book, as have many others, did the same. The University experiences also taught me to be critical of belief without balance or belief that shows unquestioning bias.

I realised some time ago that we just cannot know for sure and for certain - i.e. beyond any doubt - whether we survive body death as the ego would like. In fact we can know very little beyond any doubt. The only thing that I know beyond any doubt whatever is that, within this earthly existence, there exists at least one conscious awareness that I assume to be 'me'. I cannot know about your awareness. I can only believe that you and others have awareness. Your writings in response are not absolute proof of your awareness.

From this profound state of ignorance, I ask the fundamental questions "Why am I in such a state of ignorance? Why is humanity condemned to rely on such a smorgasboard of beliefs based on ignorance and little else?" Is that cynicism? If so I am a cynic. Angry at the moment of writing these posts? no. Fearful and angry sometimes? Yes. I am committed to facing fear and its responses within me in all its subtle disguises head on. I try to avoid running for 'comfort' from surrogate 'mothers' as much as I can. That may be why my writings seem 'angry' or 'harsh' at times. I find 'wallowing' in emotion a non productive anethema for me - not any one else. Others are responsible for their own lives. I will give every help if I can within my capabilities. I abhor the concept of love as an emotion. I cherish the emotions that go with the acts of love - negative or positive. I cherish acts of love. But all that is just me; I in no way infer that others should also be like me. This is my consciously chosen path.

I really like your suggestion that we come up with a definition of suffering. I suspect that 'pain' and 'suffering' are often confused. One may not be able to avoid pain but suffering can be moderated and even eliminated whilst still in pain!

November 16, 1999
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Cici. On karma; you might be right, I just don't know either way. I will churn that in meditation and get back on that.

November 17, 1999
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Hi Tez,

of course I cannot be 100 percent shure that there is any other consciousness out there exept the "me" as you define it. But for my "me" it seems pretty useful at times when I act AS IF there are other consciousnesses (?) out there, not so different from my own. So when I live on the hypothesis that most people will act like they feel pain when they are injured and that most people will act like they are angry, when I do thigs to them that would make me angry if somebody did them to me, I can make decisions. Whereas my "me" could not cope to well with the idea that I'm the only concious beeing, as wonderful as I may be (because then my "me" wolud have to be the great cosmic consciousness and I don't want to have that - all that reponsibility? Nah!).
I know that my reasoning may not be philosophically correct (is there any philosophical answer beyond doubt) but my view of the world seems to give me the possibility to make it from day to day with a not to false sense of security, and optimism. And yes, learning to understand things is something I value very highly, but as I grow older I'm learning to treasure other things as well.
Eve

November 17, 1999
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Eve. What is it about you that you believe gives you value for yourself independent of what others may value you for? What gives you unconditional regard for yourself?

November 17, 1999
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Tez
I don't know, but most times I have it, better not to ask - it might go away and never return ;->. But, seriously, it has to do with experience (so far I have done quite well being me compared to others), hope and chuzpa, there is no rationale for my selfregard that would stand serious questioning. But like some people in the Why - thread I believe more in practicability than in final answers. And my selfregard is by no means absolute and unshakeable, but again, experience has it that after a period of awful feelings things will get better. And when I try to avoid the traps and pitfalls (like when I'm down I tend to take things personally that aren't or needn't be) that come with situations I don't like, I feel that I can work on it - whatever "it" may be.
Eve

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