Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_TopicIcon
Man's Search for Meaning
October 12, 1999
6:21 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Guest_guest, Dagney and Tears.

I've run out of time. I will respond tomorrow. I have to fly now!!

October 12, 1999
6:50 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

the beauty we feel when looking at a sunset is the souls happiness, hence my discussion regarding our ego state vs our soul state and the search for happiness from each...

October 12, 1999
9:38 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

OUR TRUE SELF, OUR SOUL

October 13, 1999
6:07 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Tears. A very good answer. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that your meaning for your life here on earth is to search and find who you really are? Are you talking about your psychological and emotional states and your driving neuroses? Or are you talking about finding the nature of your spiritual essence; that which holds the promise of surviving the death of the body ?

It seems to me that most people I know think that the meaning and purpose of their life is to experience as much happiness as they can; their life principle is about feeling good. If they live a life of pain or sorrow then they consider that they have failed to find meaning in their life.

Have I understood you correctly?

October 13, 1999
6:10 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Guest_guest 'n Dagney.

Are you still there ?

October 13, 1999
7:58 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

Here ๐Ÿ™‚

October 14, 1999
10:59 am
Avatar
Cici
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tez - I see the pleasure pain issue as a spectrum. On the number line, homeostasis would be at zero, and ecstasy would be at a high positive number while intense sorrow or pain would be at the extreme negative.

Anyways, Tears, check this out, I think you'll agree. It about sums up my feelings on organized religion:

"Worship and sacrifice, procedures for working on the dispositions of the deity, theology and ceremony and ecclesiastical organization, are the essentials of religion in the institutional branch. Were we to limit our view to it, we should have to define religion as an external art, the art of winning the favor of the god(s). In the more personal branch of religion it is on the contrary the inner dispositions of man himself which form the center of interest, his conscience, his deserts, his helplessness, his incompleteness. And although the favor of the God, as forfeited or gained, is still an essential feature of the story, and theology plays a vital part therein, yet the acts to which this sort of religion prompts are personal not ritual acts, the individual transacts the business by himself alone, and the ecclesiastical organization, with its priests and sacraments and other go-betweens, sinks to an altogether secondary place. The relation goes direct from heart to heart, from soul to soul, between man and his maker....Religion, therefore, as I now ask you arbitrarily to take it, shall mean for us the feelings, acts, and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine."

-William James, "The Varieties of Religious Experience"

October 14, 1999
12:32 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

ahh very interesting cici, the institutionalised religious branch vs the more personalised religion. I feel my beliefs are more the latter mixed with my own knowing of the divine being not "outside of myself" but within, as the creator is within all of us.
Tez, my search for my true self began with me first of all throwing off all the confusing baggage that took me away from the pureness that i was when i was born. I was perfect when i was born, and really still am untill i became burdened with my parents doubts, fears, negativities, injustices and neglect of the true wonderfulness and loveability of myself. I then gathered neuroses and fears and doubts and everything that i felt were personally mind but were really the direct result of others...I found a strength that comes not from the intellectual ego mind but from within, a silence that remained still and unafraid amonst the most terrifying of experiences. Wheni think about it now it overwhelms me with emotion, it is a beautiful thing. We all embody this divine light, this creative force of the universe, we are all part of this quantum energy that creates our "reality". A table isnt really a table it is energy, the same that makes up me and you and the trees and the animals. You may be breathing the air that is moving within your cells that was once part of a panther in Africa. We are all connected in the most scientific and divine way! Science, the rationalizer, is finally agreeing with this principle after coming upon "the string theory" some years back..(look it up on net- string theory) Anyways where was i, im digressing here, oh yes so my search is not so much for happiness but for a knowing of my true self and there is joy inherent within this. My true self being "the observer" the silence sage that sits within me during the most distressing of times, the self that i fall back into now no longerallowing the ego mind to react, but i take my time to respond from my heart, from my true self. I listen to my true self, in meditation and in times of pain, I listen and respect her adn the divine that my true self moves within, and I do what is most best for her. I no longer believe in a god, I know there is a god. I have felt the divine and i have healed and grown and i am able to bring this light to others because of this. If we all look back on our lives up untill this point and we ask ourselves, if my life were a training ground, what life purpose would i be perfectly trained for? This would give you the answer to what you should be doing with your life in service of others nad your true selfs desires.
You would then be on a path of meaning and richness. blessings

October 14, 1999
1:22 pm
Avatar
Cici
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tez - In response to what you and Tears are discussing (the meaning of life as per happiness)...

"One story reflected Frankl's conviction that many psychotherapists are themselves mad. It was in the forties, he recalled, here in Vienna. He read a quotation from a noted modern philosopher and another from a schizophrenic patient, and asked his listeners
to match quotation with author. Overwhelmingly, he said triumphantly (as though the results of the experiment had just come in),'the majority of listeners got it wrong!'

What philosopher and lunatic had in common, Frankl went on to explain, is the certainty that happiness can be attained by furious pursuit and a consequent rage at the unsatisfying results. His useful word for this is "hyperintention," a tendency that only inflames what is usually the real problem, our own self-centeredness. 'Everything can be taken away from man but one thing - to choose one's attitude in a given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.' The sane are those who accept this charge and do not expect happiness by right. Thus Frankl's own "logotherapy," which views suffering not as an obstacle to happiness but often the necessary means to it, less a pathology than a path."

- Matthew Scully, "Viktor Frankl At Ninety: An Interview"

http://www.firstthings.com/fti.....cully.html

October 14, 1999
3:34 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

absolutely, i agree, our suffering inevitably brings us to this understanding, it is our attitude towards our stresses, suffering and problems that determine our true peace and happiness.
This made the difference between those who survived the camps and those who didn't, the camps being a great analogy for lifes hardships. Blessings cici

October 14, 1999
5:28 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

To conclude what im trying to say I'VE TRANSCENDED MY HYPERINTENSIVE EGO DRIVEN SELF AND COME TO THE TRUE HAPPINESS THAT LIES WITHIN WAITING FOR ALL OF US. TRASCENDENCE IS AVAILABLE TO ALL OF US, AND THEREIN LIES GOD.
SUFFERING IS A PATH TO HAPPINESS FOR IT TEACHES US AND POINTS THE WAY TO THIS INEVITABLE TRUTH, HAPPINESS, ACTUALLY HAPPINESS IS DYNAMIC, LETS SAY JOY, IS WITHIN OUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS LIFES SUFFERING AND THE GREATNESS OF TRANSCENDING OUR EGO (SELF CENTRED) AND FALLING BACK INTO THE DIVINE SELF, WHICH IS PART OF YOU ALL AND OF THE CREATOR. BLESSINGS.
I FEEL SO GOOD AFTER WRITING THIS. SOME OF YOU WILL INTELLECTUALLY UNDERSTAND, BUT IT IS TO FEEL IT IN THE VERY MARROW OF YOUR BONES THAT BRINGS YOU THE TRUE UNDERSTAND AND JOY, THIS IS ONLY BROUGHT ABOUT BY SUFFERING. SO THANK GOD THAT YOU WILL EVENTUALLY BE BROUGHT TO THIS PLACE, SOME SOONER THAN OTHERS, BUT IT IS A PLACE THAT NO ONE ELSE CAN GET TO OTHER THAN ON THE SUFFERING PATH, AND THE REWARDS ARE THE GREATEST LIFE HAS TO OFFER. GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!!!! HUGS

October 15, 1999
9:57 am
Avatar
hazza
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

hi cici,
im so glad you are using you brain girl!! boy when you read you really read!. I too love Satre, it made me understand that responsibility is freedom, if we cut ourselves off from all ties with other humans we become dead. Anyway have you read "The Magus" by John Fowles, its quite interesting,
Take care, let me know how things are going in your life
Hazza

October 15, 1999
12:59 pm
Avatar
Cici
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Hazza,

Thanks a lot. I haven't done anything in almost 4 weeks or shorter...I don't know, it feels like forever, though (ha ha ha). At first it was hard, so hard I thought "maybe my parents were right..maybe I do need to be in inpatient". One sleepless night back at my parent's house, I wsa going through boxes of old stuff from high school and I found Kafka's "The Metamorphosis" and Camus' "The Stranger," set in Algiers. I read through them that night, and I had a revelation. I found a way to distract myself.

The gears and wheels in my mind are rusty. My logic sometimes falls short. But it helps to be able to have an intelligent discussion with like-minded individuals who've read the same materials...I missed that when I was with my druggie friends. If anything, they avoided intellectual exchanges.

Regardless of all this, Frankl really helped. I read in an inerview he gave that he said, "Everything can be taken away from man but one thing - to choose one's attitude in a given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." I decied to choose my own way.

October 15, 1999
7:45 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

amen

October 15, 1999
11:04 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

All. I agree with the statements that indicate that proccupation with self (self-centredness) is the primary cause of our suffering.

I further agree that happiness is a byproduct that comes as a result of a positive attitude to life.

I further contend that it is a negative attitude to both physical and psychological pain that causes suffering; a positive attitude can even result in joy despite the pain.

I think that it is very important to discriminate between pain and suffering. Pain is a signal warning us of either physical or psychological threats to our perceived wellbeing; whilst suffering is a psychological manifestation which results from a negative attitude to that pain signal.

Tears: I like your response of 14-OCT regarding transcendence of body consciousness. Meditation experiences certainly have shown me that joy and ecstacy can result from 'disconnecting' our consciousness from the slavish monitoring of our sense organs for perceptions of threats.

Whilst this concept is an anathema to most Christians, I certainly would agree with your view of the Higher Self (God) being on some continuum with the lower self; a continuum that is via the conscious through the pre-conscious, unconscious and collective unconscious to the Divine Self. OOOOaaaaaaaa!!!! Heresy!!!

Traversing this continuum is difficult but not impossible. Yogis, rishis and mystics have been using techniques to do this for many centuries. It allows one to travel close to the spiritual X Axis in my somewhat sterile model discussed in my response dated 12-OCT to Kitten.

I would also like to state that I see pain and sorrow(sadness) as being causually unrelated. I see pain resulting from a perceived threat to my wellbeing. I see sorrow as resulting from the loss of a spiritual experience. Take the loss of a partner of 50 years with whom many of life's travails have been shared. Such transcendence of self that often occurs in such partnerships is the spiritual reason for the great joy often experienced in such a relationship. A loss of this spiritual union can bring great sadness but not necessarily pain. But suffering can occur as a result of such a spiritual depending on our attitude to same.

If we are right in this focus on our 'attitude' to pain and sorrow, what attitude should we take and why should we strive for such an attitude? Just to feel happy? Is this a good enough reason? What does everyone think?

October 17, 1999
8:57 pm
Avatar
Cici
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hmmm. I don't understand what you mean by "this focus on our 'attitude' to pain and sorrow."

I rather think that there is no universal dictate for what attitude we should take. Attitude should be chosen on a case by case basis, depending on the situation you're faced with and what outcome you perceive as the most beneficial. When faced, for example, with the death of a loved one from a long and painful illness, you can selfishly mourn their passing from your life, dwelling for years and years; conversely, you can mourn their passing from your life but take comfort in the fact that they no longer suffer. Your attitude towards the situation affects the outcome.

Tears, I have to say that I'm excited! I know, it's baby steps, but I was at a party on Saturday and there was coke everywhere, but I steadfastly declined the free offers (it's funny how generous coked-up fiends can be), and my boyfriend remained sober with me throughout the night. I wanted too so badly, but I just remembered how awful the come-down is. I had to share my baby steps with my figurative big sis! ๐Ÿ™‚

October 18, 1999
7:28 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

Tez, with regards to what you said before, you said that "proccupation with self (self-centredness) is the primary cause of our suffering".

I dont undersntand this. What about a person who focuses on himself and tries to seek his happiness. In a way you can call him self-centered as you said, but its not possible that it leads to suffering. Either this or maybe i didnt get your point. What exactly is this self-centreredness you are explaining? Is it something like being ego senstitive? too concious of one self?

October 18, 1999
7:39 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Cici. I mean that if we focus on our attitude to pain and ask ourselves if our attitude is positive or negative, then we can quickly 'see' that a negative attitude to our pain causes suffering; whilst a positive attitude to our pain has the potential for both growth and joy. Many people with great 'loads to bear' have bourne this out.

I agree with every word of your response. You made my point very concisely when you said, "Your attitude towards the situation affects the outcome." I couldn't agree more. It affects the extent to which we suffer. However, a positive attutude may not remove the pain, nor change the circumstances causing it. Frankl could do little about his camp circumstances or his pain. However, he could choose his attitude to it. Some chose a negative attitude, suffered terribly, gave up and died. Others like Frankl, learnt how to reduce his suffering but not necessarily his pain. In regard to pain and suffering, I see a big difference between the two; suffering is caused by a negative attitude to pain. Pain is caused by physical and/or psychological damage.

October 18, 1999
7:58 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Guest_guest. The key word here is 'preoccupation'. I think that 'observing the self' in our daily interactions with others is a healthy step on the journey of self discovery and recovery. However preoccupation with self and being fixated upon rooting out 'causes' of our pain in order that we might become 'happy', produces the opposite effect. We miss the joy of living. We wallow in our own psychological illness.

There is an old saying that says, "It is impossible to have a problem unless we are thinking about ourself". This is an exaggeration. But there is some truth in it, I think.

There is another saying that says "Happiness is a by-product of right living". Some wise sages think that we can NEVER attain happiness by directly seeking it. The question is what is 'right living'. Well... that is a minefield. Getting off one's own case (preoccupation with self), is a good start. Helping others is the best way I know of avoiding preoccupation with myself. I sometimes want to run away from the phone when I hear the 'self-preoccupied' conversations of others, but I realise that it is my self-centredness that demands that others behave as I would like. It is my self-centredness that causes my suffering not the self-centredness of others. Yet I am still self-centred!!!! Just not as much as I used to be.

Does this make sense?

October 18, 1999
8:20 pm
Avatar
Cici
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I suppose that what Frankl experienced led him to believe that suffering is a necessary component to happiness. Which is essential to understanding his point about attitude. Tez, I completely agree with the concept that the pain and negative attitude combination yields sorrow, while pain and a positive attitude yields growth.

I think it's funny, because I can sit here and say all these things but it is so hard in practice. I suppose that's where the old adage "do as I say, don't do as I do" comes from.

Would you say that the ability to control our impluses is what makes us civilized? What does everyone else think?

October 18, 1999
11:25 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

wow.... i dont think i get the exact and absolute meaning of self-centeredness... but i do agree that happiness will not be achieved if you keep happiness as your goal. My idea is that is you're obsessed with ANYthing, you cant be happy and 'free'. Obsession means that your mind is in a chase, whether that chase is a wild goose chase.. Obsession limits your options, it puts a chain on your spirit and your thinking. The obession of attaining happiness thus does not bring happiness. If a person say 'I want to be happy. OK, how can i be happy? Hmm..i'll be happy if [this happens, or i do this, or i dont do this etc ]... So when that thing [] happens he's happy for a short time. Then he asks himself, as i happy now? He says, well actually i'll be happy when THIS happens. So it never ends. You must have heard, 'Happiness is not a destination but a journey'.

I believe you can attain happiness by avoiding pain in your life. Feeling a headache? Give yourself an aspirin. Happy people are very 'tuned' in to the things which cause them pain or disgust. Unhappy people ignore or misinterpret the messages that tell them that they are feeling pain. Everybody gets these messages, but how you attend to them makes the difference. Compare happy and unhappy people, you will definitely see that happy people are very 'near' and tuned in to their messages, while unhappy people ignore or misinterpret their messages. i think its quite true.
About your line: "others behave as I would like.". I dont know but i would like to focus on what exactly it is which makes you demand your approved behavior from others. You say that it your self-centeredness.

What you said("others behave as I would like."), it means that if others dont behave as you would like them to behave, then you would'nt like it, or be unhappy or be hurt, right? I believe this actually comes from you behaving as you think others would like you to behave. I mean that cycle starts with this thing first.

So when you behave as you think others would like to behave, you also expect THEM to 'take care' of your feelings (this statement is equivalent to your statement which i quoted). What do you think about THIS phenomenon where everyone is trying to see what the other one wants. You see, here too, you are seeking happniess (although it is someone else's happniess). Doesnt it lead to no one being happy? And so, suffering?

October 19, 1999
1:46 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi cici and Tex:
and a "top of the morning to ya both" hehehehehe
I feel so happy, it must be illegal.
I notice that as i become happier and more peaceful it feels awkward, like something might come and knock me down, but then i need to meditate on the fact that i deserve abundance and joy in my life...and always did.
I CAN NOT SAY THIS STRONG ENOUGH, BUT I HAVE LEARNED FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND NOT FROM SOME INTELLECTUAL POO POO, THAT WE ARE THE CREATORS OF OUR LIFE. I do not mean that we are responsible for the selfish violent acts of others BUT WE ARE COMPLETELY RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS IN RESPONSE (NOTICE I DIDINT SAY REACTION) TO THEM. Our attitude, not necessarily a "positive" one because this is judgmental so is calling our attitude "negative" I would like to go further than that, we all have certain perceptions and approaches to life that are colored and filtered by our past experiences, our souls true calling and our environment.
Oh Cici, I am so happy that you turned down the generous coke offers.....you are doing great girl.
Dont berate yourself for being so smart but not following your own wisdom, see you are still young in years and in life experience. You still need to have the important stuff behind the words, that is the true experiences that come from living the words..if you know what i mean. You see i too, understood intellectually what was truly the right way, the wise path, but it was not untill i had experienced the lessons that life gives us in these areas untill i finally understood within my heart.
All i can say to you and anyone who is seeking joy and inner peace is to remain true to yourself and learn to love your self as well as listen to the wise sage that is within all of us and speaks through the heart..as Dr Wayne Dyers says "If prayer is us speaking to god, then intuition is god speaking to us" blessings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

October 19, 1999
3:22 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

I have experienced it too, i.e. when i was feeling good, there would be something in the back of my mind that would be telling me, this is not right or straighten up, or ok, its enough for now. I say, in the back of my mind, because my good moods would live for a short time and i would finally fall back to what i was before. It is actually our 'Parent' who is telling us this (this term is used in the book "I'm OK, you're OK"). This 'parent' is not your actual parent but another side of your personality, a side which tells you what to do and what not do, what is considered normal and what it not, what is 'right' and what is not.

So when you feel good, you have to realize that your 'parent' is going to come and try to take you out of your good mood (for whatever reason, maybe it says you dont deserve it, or thats its not not right or its 'illegal', like you said). So whenever you hear this voice of your parent, just tell it to chill off or buzz off. Slowly and slowly that voice will just stop, because it gets ignored repeatedly. Reinforce your good mood and resist your knocking down by telling yourself that it is your right to feel good and does anyone (that includes the 'parent') have any problem with that ???? Certainly not

October 19, 1999
4:32 pm
Avatar
site coordinator
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I find this discussion...well, exciting, and mind tumbling at the same time. It seems like there are only a few variables, then more get mixed in, more and more and more, so that if one were to attempt a โ€œconclusionโ€ for peace and meaning, it would cause dizziness! ; )

When I feel like this, I remember the acronym: KIS(S)

Keep

It

Simple

anyone want to help me define "simple"?
- Guest_guest, a dictionary is fair at this point.

October 19, 1999
4:52 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

Simple is the general thing, under which everything else (including the complicated things) comes. Its the essense and summary. Everything is simple, nothing is complicated and everything can be simplified. Remember the big bang .. that means the world can also be simplified into just one whole body...well ok maybe this doesnt make sense but what the hell .. ๐Ÿ™‚
You didnt tell the meaning of the other S. Can you do so now? :))

Forum Timezone: UTC -8

Most Users Ever Online: 247

Currently Online:
51 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

onedaythiswillpass: 1134

zarathustra: 562

StronginHim77: 453

free: 433

2013ways: 431

curious64: 408

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 49

Members: 109319

Moderators: 5

Admins: 3

Forum Stats:

Groups: 8

Forums: 74

Topics: 38532

Posts: 714177

Newest Members:

vfienfDazy, LeonardDazy, zlzDazy, dickDazy, ltyfDazy, EnriqueApent

Moderators: arochaIB: 1, devadmin: 9, Tincho: 0, Donn Gruta: 0, Germain Palacios: 0

Administrators: admin: 21, ShiningLight: 572, emily430: 29

Copyright © 2019 MH Sub I, LLC. All rights reserved. Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Cookie Policy | Health Disclaimer