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man's search for meaning, II
December 2, 1999
6:38 pm
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Kitten.
The wonderful power of women to nurture very commendable. I believe that it can and should also be fostered to the maximum extent in men. Obviously we do not have the aid of estrogen but getting in touch with our feminine side psychologically can certainly go some way in that direction.

What I perhaps had in mind when I referred to women embracing the masculine, was not 'putting up with' or even trying to understand obnoxious male behaviour. I was referring to women in society generally using the intellect more in the application of their parenting techniques. I see that insecurity of attachment in infants as the cause of much pain in later life. I see such problems in infant attachment in infancy as being caused by a lack of understanding of how damaging our modern way of life is to a child. As women are generally the primary care givers in infancy, I see that an increase in left brain activity in the form of more usage of the intellect in decision making can only be of great benefit to both sexes. Fathers obviously need to up their game considerably here also. This is just one very important reason why I was implying that embracing both the animus and anima is the optimum in creating a balanced and integrated human being. Just think how the human race could evolve if we all aimed at that! Wars, caused by male aggression, would end.

You seemed to me to be implying that I was seeking some kind of preferential treatment for men. Not so.

Cici:
I've run out of time. Will get back to you tomorrow. Phew! 🙂

December 2, 1999
10:22 pm
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Tez,

I do believe many view nuturing as a role that has implied passivicity. From my perspective it seems to be somewhat different. Maybe I come from the Xena school of mothering, but I raised my children differntly. Often I wonder if that is why they have certain problems in school. When they become adults,
however, my ways will become clear. As infants I treated them with great affection, but with boundaries. I also talked to them, as men do, with an adult voice. We read fairy tales and Falubert. We listened to Mozart and ate bits of bagel and escargo. We problem solved in masculine fashion and learned about independence. Strength was encouraged, but with balance. They are odd children, wise beyond their years...reading from the age of three...told they were like baby birds who from birth would be pushed out of the nest when they could fly. Still 13 and 14, they have adapted to life well. They have appropriate gender ID, but both know there is nothing they can't do or shouldn't do because of their sex. They are the poduct of a loving mother who has a firm hand. Indeed, they are much better off than I was at their age.
One of the greatest lessons I am attempting to teach both of my children is the need to work together with others. Women traditionally do this, we understand the cord or bond that holds all together. What affects you affects me, etc. I think that is something most men need to learn, although, I am surprised at how many young men at my college are learning that.

And sorry if I implied you are a one of "those" men. I reckon maybe you are getting closer to the truth than most.

December 3, 1999
4:30 pm
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Cici.
Perhaps your are right. I understand that Jung's visions just before his death held very dire predictions for humanity. I believe Jung was despairing about humanity ever coming to terms with the personal and collective shadow. I guess we can only speculate.

Many years ago, whilst in deep meditation, I was given a glimpse of 'absolute reality'. I could not bring back even one tiny shread of that experience; I only knew that the 'vision' was about how things really are and the fantastic feelings of elation in seeing it. Although it might have made the journey easier to make, no, I wasn't nibbling at any magic mushrooms.

I do know that these meditation experiences over the years have allowed me to shed a hell of a lot of the stuff force fed to me in my childhood and adolescence as easily as a snake sheds its skin. As I now know how ignorant humanity is, I now feel quite comfortable challenging any of my own beliefs.

"What does this world have to do with visionaries?" Yours is a profound question. We do seem to occupy ourselves in the trivialities associated with the seemingly futile struggle to keep this body alive. I tend to think that if we knew 'absolute reality' as I believe I saw (but couldn't keep) then we would be unable to find a skerrick of motivation to do anything; I believe that we would probably unconsciously shut down our own nervous systems and die. Maybe such visions do happen to mystics as death approaches and they see the futility of divulging what they see. Or maybe there are no words to describe the 'Absolute Reality'. Interesting speculation, eh!

December 3, 1999
5:17 pm
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Kitten.
Thanks for your excellent response. It sounds like your child rearing practices should form the prototypical basis for parenting classes in the new millenium. They are the very anthesis of my own childhood experiences.

I had to grin when you said, 'And sorry if I implied you are a one of "those" men.' I was one of "those men" for many years until life in the form of recovery from chronic alcoholism, a broken marriage, followed by a very severe addiction to a very sadistic 'man hating' woman in an excruciatingly painful relationship, and a severe 'mental breakdown' in that order bludgeoned me into admitting that I was 'doin it wrong'.

I got stuck into as much formal and informal study of human nature as I could in an effort to learn about myself and my fellow time travellers. I guess that my studying traversed several very artificial barriers set in place by male dominated left brained academia. I have consequently found out that academia has only put a very small part of the jigsaw together. However, whilst they 'fell of the pedestal' that I put them on, I am grateful for their contribution to society and my own journey in particular. I guess that the philosophy of science naturally severely limits their ways of knowing to that of cognition only. I was amazed to learn that only in the last decade has there been any serious research into the workings of the emotional brain. Even this research, by its very nature is intellectual and is a function of the masculine cognitive brain trying to understand its sister, the emotional brain. 🙂

I now see my life as having been chaos followed by many years of putting each piece of life's many pieces into my own personal jigsaw as soon as they fall into place. I no longer use a hammer to force the pieces to fit where I want them to go. 🙂 I am very happy today; most of the time that is. Every so often, I sure have my regressions and revert to type though. Emotional memories are set in concrete, eh. That is why I think good parenting is sooooo... important in setting 'good' emotional memories in concrete rather that 'bad' ones.

This personal 'jigsaw building' is why I am on this particular thread. I believe that I have learnt a lot about myself and others on this web site over the last year or more that I have been posting.

December 3, 1999
5:21 pm
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Eve. Testing, testing, one, two, three ...... are you receiving; over.

December 3, 1999
6:28 pm
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Tez...

Your reply brought to mind a movie I saw recently, "Pi." I have been an avid student of number theory since I first read about Chaos Theory.

Have you heard of Kabbala? Jewish mysticism? Apparently, the Hewbrew alphabet is alpha-numeric. Each letter is the equivalent of a number (you probably know all this!). So the word for father is AB (not literally, but in translation). 1+2=3. The word for mother is equal to 41. The word for child is equal to...41+3=44!

The word for the garden of eden divided by the word for the tree of knowledge equals a number sequence. The Fibbonachi sequence, a pattern which is seen throughout nature in the spiral pattern. Thus, weather patterns, the rise and fall of the tides, the spiral you see on a shell...are all interconnected.

In this, I see the face of God.

December 3, 1999
10:12 pm
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Tez,
I must apologize for the spelling errors in my last post...whew, to think I was an English major at one time! Have to blame it on late night classes and lack of sleep.

Something you said about emotions being set in stone reminded me of something. Not too long ago I was flipping through the channels late at night, after one of those break-up fights I have with my lover, and came across an info-mercial. A John Grey-type of guy selling his get-in-touch program. Anyway, he said one day he was on the bus when a man got on with his two young children. The normal, every-day riders were always quiet and respectful of the early morning hours, but these children were loud and obnoxious. They ran thru the bus, disturbing everyone. The father seem totally unaware of their behavior. When he, the rider, could no longer tolerate it, he mentioned that all of the other riders would appreciate it if he reigned in his children. The father, dazed, looked up and said, "oh, I'm sorry, you're right, I should make them sit down and listen, we just came from the hospital where their mother died and I'm afraid I'm not paying attention". With that statement everything changed. The father was no longer an idiot who didn't care about others, but rather a loving father/husband
suffering distress. Maybe we look at things from our own childhood from one perspective and forget that often others were struggling with crap of their own.
Before anyone yells about abuse etc., I must say, that has a reason, too. My own mother beat me on a daily basis while my father was stationed in Viet Nam. Not until many years later after her death did I find out that my father almost left her during his time, earlier, in Korea, well before my birth. She was reliving the stress that happened before and taking it out on me. Not right, but now it makes more sense. Maybe we wouldn't be the deep thinkers we are if not for our experience. My having a high IQ does not mean anything if I can't apply it to life. As much as I may depress and rave at my situation, I don't know if I'd go back and change anything. Intelligence and common sense have to go hand in hand. Hummm, is that Freudian...a male/ female thing, or right/left brain, as you put it?

December 4, 1999
11:17 am
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Kitten,
don’t apologize for your spelling, it makes me really long for an english spell checker, and I don’t have one. You wrote „Intelligence and common sense have to go hand in hand. Hummm, is that Freudian...a male/ female thing, or right/left brain, as you put it?“. That reminded me of my first contact to feminism written on paper. My older sister (she was 15, I was 10) came home from school and was upset, because she had homework to do and she had to write a comment or statement to a list of attributes: on one side of the paper was a list that started with „male, straight, square, light, engineering... on the other side was female, wave, circle, darkness, gardening.. and so on. My first reaction was to roll on the floor laughing (until then I hadn’t been conciously aware tht such categories could exist), and when I came by again, my sister explained to me, she was very upset by that kind of categories, because it made her feel like beeing on the loosing side. Well, of course I also grew into puberty and learned more of that categories than I really wanted to know, but I still think that dividing the world into Male and Female does not help too much for anybodys everyday life. Dut I am very fond of feminism, because it is a way of realising and pinpointing problems that otherwise would not even be noticed or would remain „unmentionable“ or, worse „unthinkable“. And I think you are right about not really wanting to go back and change the way you became the one you are. I mean - changing to be somebody else would just mean that you have to cope with sombody elses problems, wouldn't it?
Eve

December 4, 1999
11:23 am
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Tez,
Thanks for „missing“ me. Yes, I’m receiving ok, I was busy doing some troubleshooting at work and other routine life procedures.
I think some people might criticise your analytical thinking, because they are scared off by the terminology (and I must admit, I was also worried when I started reading this thread, because I know some (predominantly male) prats who hide their inadequacy by justifying whatever they do or don’t do by dissapearing behind a curtain of terminology and by refusing to talk about „it“ when one of the participants (me) doesn’t even know, that.... or never read... or has never been to...). You’re not one of „those“. It’s quite easy to tell the difference: questions don’t seem to make you angry, and your answers are not of the „daddy to silly“ - kind. (I have heard of UR and CR, but I didn’t know the abbreviations)
🙂
You were right when you stated that I must have had a protected childhood. I think compared to most people here I had. And responses to later experiences - good or bad don’t fall as much in the unconditioned / conditioned categories, but are rather a result of more or less concious learning (and are propably much easier to modify or get rid of).
I like your suggestions for avoiding mayhem / trouble. Do you think it might be suitable to group them into categories? I’m thinking of - „Emergency“ „Troubleshooting“ and „Maintenance“ as suitable titles for those categories. „Emergency“ would concern every situation where I’m in danger of inflictig immediate damage to myself or to somebody elses body or emotional state. It would have to include rules like /stop it and count to ten, then think / don’t shout at others when you’re like that / don’t hit first / don’t forget to breathe / it is ok not to be ok / go shout for help / don’t panic... anything that might help to change the situation in a way to have the time for Troubleshooting, perhaps also all the „nuturing“ things belong in that category: do something that makes you feel better immediately. You listed a lot of useful steps in Troubleshooting, my favorite of yours was „face your fear head on“, one of my favorites is „look for a question that has an answer that feels good“ (i.e. focus on the right problem, one you can solve and one that helps you with the original problem - that’s not the same as finding a solution to the original problem). And Maintenance: that’s different, you can’t really do it properly when you are allready deep in trouble, and it is done best when things are fairly normal or even looking good- I think it should include rules like find out what you want from life, embrace your shadow (and embrace your light!), do something for your body mind and soul, care for others... and more. Maintenance sould become a routine procedure for everybody and I miss a big discussion in society on how to do it best. Maybe going to church on sundays can cout as a „routine maintenance procedure“ (what a ghastly name), but unfortunately I’m not a believer.
Eve

December 4, 1999
5:23 pm
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Cici.
I am very familiar with the Fibbonachi series of numbers. Generating this series is a classic example for demonstrating recursion in computer science.

However, I am staggered by the mathematical connection to the Kabbala. I have heard of the Kabbala but know next to nothing about. I will now start to take an avid interest in any references, that I find, to it.

You said, "In this, I see the face of God". I am not surprised that you think this way. There has always been something mysterious about the way nature seems to have a mathematical basis rather than a random one. I used to think that maths was humanity's creation in an attempt to impose order on nature. Now I think differently. Great mathematicians tell of gaining insights into some of their greatest theorems etc in the strangest of ways. Some say that whilst communing with nature an the sea shore at sunset or sunrise etc and whilst in a meditative state inspiration has thrust these mathematical insights upon them. They claim that they only did the foot work and were not the source of the concepts.

The interesting question is: "Why is there this 'brick wall' between our conscious awareness and the Greater Awareness?"

December 4, 1999
6:16 pm
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Kitten.
Thanks for your very insightful response. Your anecdote about the man in the bus certainly highlights how easily we attribute negative intentions, motives and attitudes to others. We seem to do this as we seek to explain our own emotional discomfort in a way that points the 'finger' away from us. Freud created a lot of terminology as a shorthand for referencing such behaviour, didn't he; projection, transference, etc.

You said, "Maybe we wouldn't be the deep thinkers we are if not for our experience."
I think that you are spot on, here. Everyone seems to think that IQ is directly attributable to genetic inheritance. I have long thought that there is a direct correlation between IQ and our levels of insecurity.
Neural connections are made as a result of thinking. What better incentive to 'think' is there than trying to figure out how to avoid the next flogging on a daily basis! That is how I lived as a child; at home and at school. I was schooled in the late 40's and most of the 50's by those black bastards that they called 'Christian Brothers'. There was nothing Christ like about them at all.(Note the strength of emotion still being invoked all these years later) I received the strap daily for the most trivial of breaches of their sick protocols. I received more of the same from the back of my father's hand when at home. Naturally I ran the streets and learnt to be street smart. I learnt how to wall up my 'feelings' and to keep everyone at bay. I was not allowed to cry, ever. I got a flogging if I did. I still can't even now.

I agree that there is a tremendous 'upside' to all of this. I have REAL incentive to gain insights into the source of my emotions. No longer do I seek to repress them. No longer do I seek to give them free reign. I now seek, like a gentle loving mother that I never knew, to soothe, support and caress the tiny frightened little boy, that would otherwise turn me into a revenging, hard ars..ole, intent on inflicting pain on others.
What I am working on now in myself, is how to recognise mild discomfort in the little boy, long before it grows and erupts into outright pain in the form of an unrecognised childhood emotional memory from long ago in full emotional recall - usually without the advantage of the contextual memory component.

Concurrently, I now seek to find my answers to the 'why' of it all on a much higher level than that given by science as we know it. I seek to know the 'why' on a spiritual level; yet on a basis that does not offend against reason as do so many of the answers of the established religions. This perhaps explains my motivations for wanting to integrate my own 'animus' and 'anima'; to such succinct little words, yet so profound in their implications.

My quest is no 'wanking male ego trip', but to fulfill a real need in me. However, I can easily not take offence at those who judge me so; 'Observer' included. 🙂 Thanks yet again for your excellent response.

December 4, 1999
6:50 pm
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Eve.
Thanks also for a delightful response. I had to smile at your "daddy to silly" quote. Academic "wankers" can be so infuriating when in condescending mode, can't they. I think that I use terminology out of laziness. One precise 'word' from the genre of the 'trade' can say so much; yet, I fail to realise that if others are unfamiliar with the word then all is wasted and communication breaks down. For that I apologise to all.

Talking about emotional control, you said. "It would have to include rules like /stop it and count to ten, then think....". Such rules are really great; but they just don't seem to work for me. Once I am in a full blown emotional blowout, I am in "kill" mode; everything else seems like crap, including all my past insights. This is why 'nurturing' my 'emotional self' on a continuing basis to prevent the crisis arising seems to be the answer for me. This 'nurturing' seems to be a 'thinking' thing; a continual talking to my 'emotional self' in my head, telling myself how well things are going and what a good person I really am, etc. If I make a mistake, rather than frightening the emotional self by calling my 'thinking self' an idiot, I try to remember(often failing) to tell my 'emotional self' that I am allowed to make a mistake; that there is no 'daddy' or 'Christian Brother' to 'flog' me now. This has been my experience of what works for me.

I have learnt that we all have different emotional memories; what works for one may not work for another.

It's good that you are back, Eve.

December 4, 1999
8:32 pm
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Tez,

I encourage you once again to find the book, The Crone
by Barbara G. Walker. There is a refernce in there to certain things we now attribute to men. Mathematics orginally meant "mother-wisdom", calenders meant"lunar"
or "menstrual and a myth from India indicates that women's ability to give birth is a direct result of their superior skill in devising a system of measurement. Indeed, in this book Ms. Walker gives a strong statement which negates the right brain, left brain theory. If I were in posession of a scanner, I would be more than happy to share it with you. Since I am not, you'll have to spend a few pennies and buy it.

While I am a devout reader of any and all information, I sometimes have the need to NOT read. It often sends me into a world of torment. I need, at those times, an
answer now. Right now. It is then that I curse my intelligence. For I think something there causes us to doubt everything. Including ourselves. However, I will continue on my quest to enlightenment--no matter how bumpy it might get. I have much more to share with you, including some info on numbers. I have a counting fettish...not sure why, but it seems numbers are a part of our own karmic patterns. But...I must go off and do some school work, end of term and lots of papers due. My children are all away at friends and I must take advantage of the quiet.
k

ps. I found your other thread...gave me a different perspective or should I say slant on the Tez we all know here!

December 5, 1999
5:08 pm
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Kitten.
OK, I will get the book, The Crone by Barbara G. Walker ASAP - thanks.

When we talk of 'superiority' in either sex, I think that we have to specify the attributes to which we refer. For example, generally men are stronger in their upper body than women. Men, generally, seem to be better at killing than women. Of course we then are faced with making value judgements about which criteria that we should use in deciding superiority. Women certainly make superior mothers, and men superior fathers - discounting invitrio fertilization that is. 🙂 I hope that heterosexual relationships are here to stay.I think that arguing about superiority of the sexes is a non-productive mine field that I like to avoid at all costs. I tend to think that it is a case of 'horses for courses'.

You said, "I must go off and do some school work..." Are you teaching or studying? Either way what is the field of study?

December 5, 1999
6:49 pm
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Tez,

Oh, no, I agree, neither sex is superior to the other. But, to play devil's advocate...my upper body strength is rather high. I can bench press my own body weight and could probably do more, but don't wish to look too much like Arnold Schwartzenegger(my wt is 135)
As for the killing part, well, if someone attempted to hurt my children I would not bat an eye as I cut their throat. Mother's protective instinct is strong...in fact there are a few studies on just that thing.

I am a Grad student, albeit an older one(40), in, of all things, the counseling program. Life has directed me there after many other degrees: Television production, French Chef, and Professional Writing. I decided all my experiences can be put to good use. As a matter of fact, the other day I did the Keirsey Personality test to see what my appropriate career should be. Voila, turns out it is Counselor.
Now, the question is...will I survive school and my own periodic traumatic roller-coaster of a life? Stay tuned. You know what they say: there is a fine line between genius and insanity. I walk that very tight rope.

By the way, where are you? Not in the states, I assume?
You always post at an odd time, so I was wondering?
May I make one observation? Something in my gut (you know us women, we're intuitive rather than intelligent
hee hee) tells me you are on the verge of a new life,
experience, trip, adventure...something like that. Pardon my forwardness, but I feel as if someday soon you will shout Eureka!

And...sorry to hound you about the book, but I do think you will enjoy it. Full of amazing stuff. I gave it to one of my older male professors in the English department(he has taught at Oxford)...he loved it.
Enjoy!

December 6, 1999
10:43 am
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Tez...

Maybe it has to do with processor speed and RAM. I was talking to my dad the other day. He spent several years in the submarine service where, he says, there was a lot of "alone time to meditate." He revealed his belief that God was analogous to a supercomputer, thus explaining God as he superconsciousness, constantly creating and reordering as a massively complex mathematical equation is solved, spitting out solutions in ever-increasing complexity. I had a calculus teacher in my early college days who believed a similar thing.

thus, the biblical superstition that stating the name of God out loud (according to Kabbala, this is 215 letters or 215 digits long) will create a world. Stating the name out loud and backwards will be the end of the world. Perhaps our entire universe can be described by a mathematical equation. Being a student of number theory, I was a math major for a few years (before my own neurosis and an ulcer drove me out of that concentration)...I remember reading about this.

December 6, 1999
2:13 pm
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tez, kitten, I still sometimes get pretty confused about male / female issues, because Im never sure what "part" or "meaning" of male and female the other one is talking about. I'll try and break it down to bits that I can chew:

Biology:
Male and female is another word for being a man or woman, an attribute to an individual being. And male and female are names for categories of individuals, everybody falls into one of these. We also use male and female as names for the functions of mother and father, females can only be mother and males can only be father.

Other (Sociology / Psychology / Philosophy and more):
We use male and female as categories for what people do in real life (being mother or father, having a male profession, having female qualities, acting "manly"), male and female are also reference values to define ourself (our interactions with others often depend on whether they are the same ore the other sex, also our opinions of a behaviour may be different when it is comming from / directed to a male or female recipient).
We group things that people do into "typically female" and "typically male" categories. We observe - like it or not - sociological differences between people and a lot of them when grouped by male / female (money, opportunities, position in a hierarchy...) can look like female means also loosing.
And then there is allways our imaginary male and female ideals, they have different names, and they are not really restricted like "for men only" or for "women only" Animus and Anima are one of them? What is divine feminine (divine male? demonic male / demonic female ?)?

Sometimes I tend to think that I sorted it out: just because I'm a woman and because in our society women seem to be often on the loosing side does not have to mean that I loose automatically. It does not mean that I have to be as male as possible to be successfull, I even managed to figure out that I can be a woman, feel good about it and still not be a looser. This has different parts: changing the value of something that is genarally attributed to "female" (e.g. to be giving is not the same as be taken advantage of, to be "only" housewife can be a much more challenging and complicated job than to go somewhere and come back with money), but also changing the classical attributes of "female" (e.g. stay at home and do family "only", be rather passive than active). And get rid of some horrible old "women don't" beliefs. I can find some of my talents to be typically female while others might be more masculine but - I have them and I like most of them.

But:
I still find a lot of situations where all these are mixed up, often as a hidden agenda or something that is so "natural" that you don't even have to mention it. And sometimes it means that I have to get angry and start yelling at some men who are not even aware of what they are doing (oh, she's just doing the houshold and the kids and then she is complaining). And sometimes it is more uncertain - I just don't get what the other one is aiming at. This is a question to you, kitten: why do you think that intelligence / common sense could be a male / female issue ??? Eve

December 6, 1999
5:07 pm
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Kitten.
I live in near Brisbane, in the state of Queensland in Australia. I come from 'the land down under' where the the women 'roar' and the men 'chunda'. 🙂

Your prophesy is for a big change in my life? I might be about to make the big leap off the planet into the 'Bardo'. That could be interesting. It nearly happened yesterday. I was thundering along on my big two wheeled cruiser, when about 10 Harleys come along in the opposite direction. I craned my neck in order to get a good view of their machines. Next thing I knew was seeing a big four wheel drive propped stationary in front of me. Wow! I slammed on the skids, fishtailed down the road with NO WAY of stopping. In a split second without consciously thinking I gunned my bike and found a way around him somehow. Phew!!

Is this the sort of change you are predicting? Paramdam? Nirvana? Or is there somewhere hotter that I'm going? 🙂

December 6, 1999
5:24 pm
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Cici. Wow! My stereotyping of women is showing. I thought all maths majors were men. 🙂 Not so, I know. Years ago at uni, I had a woman maths lecturer who was a genius at maths.

I know that we have a problem trying to conceptualize God from within the constraints of a finite mindset. I guess however we conceptualize God it is still,not that, not that! I like that mathematical model though.

There are a few things about God's creation that really interest me. One is our ignorance of the true nature of things and another is the diversity of creation. A third is the seeming unique nature of all things; no two animals have the same skin patterns; nor us the same fingerprints. Even our psyches seem to be unique. Yet religions would have us conforms to a sameness of belief and behaviour. Strange is it not?

December 6, 1999
6:14 pm
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Eve.

The latin words 'Animus' and 'Anima'were chosen by Carl Gustav Jung, one of the fathers of psychodynamic theory which formed the basis for modern Analytical Psychology. As Kitten pointed out we all are conceived as female. At some point either male or female sex organs and other characteristics form. During early socialisation, we tend to take on the characteristics of our parents. This is called 'modelling'. We also bond and attach to our 'primary caregiver', usually mom with varying degrees of security, dependent upon the relationship. All this has profound effects on us in relationships of all kinds in later life.

Out of this comes a certain psychological profile. If in extreme cases we being men develop a hatred for our mothers and all that she stands for and we strongly identify with our 'macho' MCP fathers then Jung would say that we are 'out of touch' with our 'femininity' or our anima.

Jung maintained that the Animus was the unconscious masculine archetype in women and the Anima the unconscious feminine archetype in men. According to Jung, an archetype is a component in the collective unconscious that we unconsciously use in our thinking, making judgements and decisions etc. If we, men, are out of touch with our 'anima' then we are not able to tap into a whole range of feelings and ways of being and knowing. We become male chauvanist pigs.
Similarly with women who are out of touch with their 'animus'. They would not be able to tap into a whole range of desirable male attributes. This is why I see that if we as men and women can maintain our differences yet at the same time understand and emphasize with each others points of view then relationships between the sexes will improve considerably.

However, I think that the battles for the minds of MCP type men cannot be won by using traditional men's tactics. Sadly, I think that this is where fundamentalist feminism failed. They may have changed the laws but not the hearts of men. The continuation of wars, marriage and relationship breakdown rates, youth suicide rates, etc show this.

Even the dumbest of animals respond to love, why not men? Please note my interest in the subject of love on the social issues BB called Confusing ...

Would you agree with this oversimplistic explanation of the animus/anima concept, Kitten?

December 7, 1999
9:37 am
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kitten
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Eve,

Why do I take issue with it? Society often assumes that women are capable of "intuition" while men are using "intelligence". In my case, I am of above averagae intelligence with the genentic body type of an athelete. In retrospect, I would have benefited from both "male" sports as well as "male" education. Perhaps because of my age (40), I was allowed neither. My parents wanted me to teach early education and be feminine. Yech! My confusion led to many mistakes in life. I am not talking sexual identification; Iam a heterosexual woman, but role id's. Although, were they really mistakes? (that is another question) It is only now, that I realize I limited myself by my own and social limitations. I had potential in many areas that seemed at the time to be off limits. My strong desire is for that not to repeat itself in the case of my children. Even in your own statement you divided it into intelligence and common sense. Which is which? Male/female? I content WE are both. True feminism is acceptance of each as equal. Now, we all are different, just as each flower is different, but we are all the same at the core. And, in fact, according to Carl Rogers, we all need the same core conditions met: unconditional positive regard, etc....Hey, I just wanna be me!

Tez,
I'm intriqued by your statement: "I craned my neck in order to get a good view of their machines". Hhmmn. And what happened next? Your life was put in peril! It seems to be a great analogy, don't you think. I may be looking too deep, but I see it as male need to compare in order to feel competant....Maybe that was a message. OOOOeeeeeooowwww. Anyway, I do stand by my conviction about your change. Perhaps I see your future as being one of the great Detective Novelists of all time. You write exceedingly well for an "old guy". Had to throw that in, sorry. I'm serious...you do. You have a certain timing that is often missing in most writing. Think about it, Mate.
Still looking for that other book about life and numbers...it may be too out there, but nonetheless it is interesting. And Eve, I encourage you to read the book "The Crone" by Barbara Walker, as well. It will enlighten you on many confusing things..... G'day all.

December 7, 1999
10:18 am
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Kitten, thanks for your answer. I also found myself as an adolescent with a body (height 1,9 meter thats 6 ft someting) and mind that others would chose to call "typically male". I did not have too much restrictions from my familiy though, as I have no brothers and my father therefor had to be "unisex" in educating my sisters and me, I think he allways dreamt that one of us would choose to be an engineer (his profession). And because my mother died when I was still small, I did not have any female identification figure to live up to, my grandma was doing the education, but she was just further away than a mother would have been. And she is quite a feminist for her age, too. I struggled a long time with role models in partnerships, though, and sometimes I still do.
By the way - this thing about intellect and common sense, I took it from one of your letters to Tez, so you must have been ironic:-). Eve

Tez,
watch out for yourself! Don't get yourself run over, wouldn't it be a pity? Thanks for your Animus / Anima definition. I'm afraid that I don't like the idea of a "collective uncoucious" too much. To me it feels better to think of it as a sum of unspoken and mostly not very well thought out beliefs, each similiar, but none of them really the same (when we don't talk about the uncoucious how can we know if it is collective / the same for all).
Back to your motorbiking adventures: Have you ever read Tery Pratchets and Neil Gaimans "Good Omens" - it is really funny and when you look closer you can see that the authors are pretty good observers of people in all kinds of worlds of their own, it's funny without really making fun "of" anybody.
See you next week, I'm off for some holydays. Eve

December 7, 1999
12:06 pm
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Isn't it human nature to normalize and categorize? Even in the political or social movements that were the most idealistic, there is formed a hierarchy. We need someone to look up to who looks up to someone else. That's where the whole idea os an invasive sort of God came from. While I must believe that God is a hands-off kind of manager, some religions insist that "God moves in mysterious ways" when somthing bad happens and it's "God's will" when something good happens!

As for uniqueness...well, chaos theory describes the goldne ratio, which when graphed makes a spiral pattern. This spiral pattern is consisten throughout nature, in smoke, in the patterns of the waves, in the way cream swirls in your coffee, in fingerprints. So although each is unique, each is connected with what I have deemed to be the face of God.

Westerners seek to see their own individuality. It takes an Eastern, zen mind to see connectedness. That's why so many great mathematicians have a zen kind of philosophy. They are absent-minded, preoccupied with their work, at one with God...

December 7, 1999
4:18 pm
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Eve,
Yes, it was meant to be ironic. Oft, I have a dry sense of humor. Sorry. I can relate to what you were saying about your Dad. I was my father's son, too. This provided a conflict...because even tho' we did things together that were "male" oriented, in public I was instructed to be a little "lady". Until the age of six, when people asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up
I always answered..."a boy". I believed it could happen,too! Incredible, eh?

December 8, 1999
6:26 pm
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Kitten.
Compare? No. Whether they be motorcycle, cars, bulldozers, stationary engines or windmills, I have always loved machines. Well made and powerful motor cycles have always fascinated me. I owned a 500 cc WW2 army BSA when I was 15. I purchased it out of money I made collecting scrap metal from the local dump. I was caught by the police riding it on the road with no licence, registration, and a pillion rider on the back. My father sold it on me. I have owned many motorcycles since. My latest is a Yamaha Virago 1100 cc cruiser. I bought it brand new. It pisses all over the Harley in every aspect except the sound and the name. But, I still admire the Harley. Are motor cycles compensatory phallic symbols? Who cares! I love riding them. I suspect that the motor cycle is an archetype just as the horse was. In days gone by, every man aspired to owning a horse. Riding a horse or a motorcycle, speaks to the deep unconscious. It is a power thing, challenging death, the warrior on horseback, all archetypal, deep and masculine, I guess.

About writing a book, I have done so. It is sitting on my computer awaiting ‘polishing’. I have yet to put together a proposal for the publishers. I am told that it is very good. But what else are friends going to say; its awful? I have no interest in detective stories really. My book is about life in general on this planet and the meaning of same.

By the way, I did an emotional quotient (EQ) test as opposed to an IQ test. The top score is 200, the average 100 and I scored 45! Hehehe. Why am I laughing?

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