Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_TopicIcon
man's search for meaning, II
November 22, 1999
12:39 pm
Avatar
eve
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

This is a thread to follow up man's search for meaning, because it was getting too big for my computer.

tez, you said:
I maintain that one's feeling of low intrinsic worth is a direct cause of much suffering, inappropriate, demanding and criminal behaviour, insecurity and fear of death. This is why helping people find value in the self, their life and death is so important. Otherwise we, as a society, will continue to treat symptoms and not causes.

For me this translates to "a lot of problem can be solved by a sufficiently large ego" and it may sound like advertising for selfishness, but I think selfishness is ok if the self is Ok and considerate, and so I think you are right, this is very important. And while I believe that there are some general rules that can be applied to avoid suffering, to reduce it or make it easyer, I think there is NO way to give suffering a general meaning, applicaple to all. Just imagine the political consequences (oh, its ok for -insert name or political group- to suffer, they get value out of it), it would be absolutely cynical.
So yes the search for meaning of suffering is important but only for an individual situation. And I still prefer to find a reason (preferably one, that I can change) for suffering. This reason can be my attitude towards a situation, or something external.

Kitten, Tez: I always understood that evolution is not "end" oriented but process oriented, that was the difference between Darwinism and Lamarckism wasn't it? Darwin showed that you need only simple rules to explain differences in related species that look as if some purposeful power had to be involved. But the rules of evolution are not: "it will be better in the end". To the contrary, like for each and every useful rule there are some examples where the more of the same rules led to something completely absurd. Examples: Evolution "made" eagles have very sharp eyes. Because an eagle that sees more prey will end up with more to eat, therefore will not starve when others do and have therefore more offspring. But evolution also "made" male peacocks have a lot of tail feathers, because female Peacocks will choose the most beatiful one. This means that a lot of male peacocks cannot fly properly, need a lot of extra food just to produce feathers, just to impress the females and evetually have more offspring - or be eaten by a fox.
So what? Maybe, if we have the feeling that evolution is out to get us we should remember that we can make a lot of rules ourselves. That's the thing about free will, we don't have to keep digging into dead ends of evolution, relationships, selfdestruction and so on because we can choose. Whith some training we might even chose something better. And my hope is, that suffering helps us to choose more wisely next time.
Eve

November 22, 1999
4:00 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Eve. You said, "For me this translates to "a lot of problem can be solved by a sufficiently large ego". I certainly did not intend my response to imply this. I have to say that I believe that our 'ego' is our sense of the self in isolation from all other 'selfs'. I believe that this is both the cause and the pre-requisite for our sense of our vulnerability and the reason for much of our suffering. We seem to fear non-existence of the self (the ego). Even believing that on death we return to the 'ocean of life' doesn't help much in this regard. Yet, every night as we go to sleep the ego is thought to shut down. (perhaps dreams excepted)

I think that when one feels intrinsically valuable, one is freed from concentrating on the self and the fear of not having needs met. Then we are freed to shift our ego boundaries to encompass all of creation. This is other centredness as opposed to self centredness.

You said, "And I still prefer to find a reason (preferably one, that I can change) for suffering. This reason can be my attitude towards a situation, or something external." I suspect that you see pain and suffering as synonomous. I see psychic and physical pain as the bodies warning signs of a mal-function or injury. I see suffering as resulting from a negative attitude to that pain; in my opinion two very different things.

I suggest that finding significant meaning in 'pain' can reduce suffering considerably. Hence my interest in finding meaning in life.

You said, "And my hope is, that suffering helps us to choose more wisely next time. Eve" That would be nice. However, human history has shown that we do not seem to learn the lessons of history. War and man's inhumanity to man is alive and well; nurtured by ignorance and its bed fellow, fear. The most fundamental core of this ignorance is the sense of self as an isolated and vulnerable entity (ego), coexisting and competing with other such isolated entities (egos).

We need is lots of cooperation NOT competition. This goes against the very tenets of our modern economic rationalistic and capitalistic way of life, doesn't it. Every time a company 'wins' a contract another loses. The common effects are jobs are lost and suffering results from fear of loss of self; ignorance in action yet again. It is well known that wars - competition on a brute force level - are good for the US economy. When will we ever learn that in competition there are no real winners only losers?????

November 22, 1999
4:41 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Kitten.

You don't really want to hear the Tez story. I have bored people on this site with large chunks of it several times over the past year. Suffice to say that I am interested in the nature of suffering because I see so much of it in my associations with people.

I see that we are the 'carpenters of our own crosses' yet we do not know it; I include myself in this category ( site coordinator 🙂 ) This is not to imply that we consciously and knowingly participated in the creation of our dysfunctional psyches from infancy. Our largely unconscious dysfunctionality is our 'reality' blueprint from which we work.

I seek ever more effective ways to relieve suffering - if not the pain - in both myself and in others with whom I come in contact.

I seek to not provoke pain and consequent suffering in others where possible. This requires in depth insights into the self and others to an extent that I do not yet have.

The quest for insight goes on. Yet concurrently the quest for the meaning and value behind the inevitable pain and not so inevitable suffering - caused by lack of insights and realisations - is even more important to me. I suspect anyone - including myself - who thinks that he or she has the 'answers' all sown up; for such are riding for a fall. For humanity at large, the quest for meaning is eternal; for the individual it is a life long journey. Nothing in this existence is truly static. This is why I am always questioning life; for life certainly questions me!

November 22, 1999
4:53 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Tears.

There seem to be schools of thought amongst quantum physicists just as amongst philosophers about the nature of reality. There are no certainties beyond that at least one awareness exists. Maybe that one awareness is what the west calls 'God'. Maybe there is no other awareness and 'I' am just an ignorant extension of that All Knowing. I cannot speak for you; for you may not exist at all as far as I know - for a certainty that is.

November 22, 1999
5:05 pm
Avatar
eve
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tez, it was bound to happen, it might be a language thing. Of course I did not mean that large, selfish egos should go out and fight for whatever they can grab. But I insist that only a self who knows what he /she wants and is true to own wishes and feelings can begin to try and understand others, feel empathy, really care and give to others.
It might be part of my story, because I think I restricted myself a lot (and needed a long time even to notice), because my biggest fear for a long time was to be successful and thereby to loose my friends and social contacts (good girls/women are not successful, they are just there to back up their partner, fulfil their families' expectations - that kind of thing - silly, isn't it). So I did a lot of unnecessary restrictive things to myself. I also did a lot of really good things, but not for the right reasons. Which didn't matter much for anybody else than me. And to go further, I seem to find other selfs that know what they want, and they can truly give and I can take without having second thoughts and vice versa, true friends, only not enough of them nearby. Selfs (or Egos?) that are too obviously out to help somebody whithout any wishes and needs for themselves scare me off, because I never know when the next missunderstanding will happen, when I will get the blame for not being grateful enough, for not fullfilling the unspoken conditions for this totally "unselfish" behavior.
I find your definition of pain and suffering an interesting one. Im absolutely certain, that you are right, concerning physical pain. And I don't know enough about psychology to give an opinion, but I'll try it out when the next problem comes along. It might be helpful. But while I have a very clear concept of the difference between physical pain and what we make of it (suffering or else), can you explain the difference between pain and suffering in psycological terms. How can you get them apart?

And finally: what gives you the idea, that if one is out to win then somebody else has to lose? It is not true. There are people researching that kind of thing, and you can turn everything into a win-lose problem if you chose to. But you can also chose - for a almost all problems - that you want to play it by win-win rules. Simple example / even children learn it early: you can play a game together where one wins and the other one loses, let's say chess. So if you choose to play by win-loose rules you either win and thats good or you loose and thats bad (pain, you can choose to be a good loser, or a bad loser and thereby decide if you want to suffer). But if you think again you might choose win-win rules. You play with somebody, you spend time together, you train your logical thinking, ok, in the end one is loosing the game, but both had a splendid evening (certainly no suffering, but I can't see any pain either). And I don't think that I just defined it away, it doesn't have to be there. And this - I mean choose the win-win approach - is somthing you can do on your own, it's easier when others join you, but when your ego is big enough (or your self-confidence), you don't have to care if somebody else thinks he won and you lost. You just keep cool, take what you won and leave him, smiling to yourself. Make any sense? Eve

November 22, 1999
9:20 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

huh tez? and Tez, everyone bears their souls here but you tend to remain at the intellectual level at all times, control? dislike vulnerability?

November 22, 1999
10:28 pm
Avatar
kitten
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yes, Tez...I wish to know more...or else I would not have asked. Remember, terrier with a bone! And something I always ask my sister--who is a Born Again--
what if, when she gets to heaven, everyone there is a Hare Krishna? What if YOU, by intellectualizing your search comes to the realization that the answer lies in the opposite direction...in emotion or feelings. I agree with a great deal of what you are saying, but I sense an underlying current of some, Je ne sais quoi.
Humnnnn! As for someone knowing all the answers,no one person does, however we all have bits and pieces--the collective unconscious, or is it conscious? And is something only worth having if we have to work for it? To achieve eternal life, one has to suffer?

November 23, 1999
11:09 am
Avatar
Cici
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hello. Long time no see.

Identity is a funny construction, don't you think? I am me, you are you...if this were all just a construction of your own mind, these points are moot. Then, there is only you. And I...I am a collection of words strung together on the computer screen...

And is connecting with human beings about communication? I remember once tripping, long, long ago. I thought my friend Russ and I were having a deep and meaningful conversation, as did he. I come to find out later that we weren't speaking intelligable english. Oh, well. Right?

November 23, 1999
4:22 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Eve. You asked, "can you explain the difference between pain and suffering in psycological terms. How can you get them apart?"

In my understanding, psychological pain occurs when the working memory becomes aware of the extended arousal of the fear response systems of the body.

Without any way of dealing with the 'real' cause of that arousal or any understanding of the meaning of that arousal, suffering or mental anguish often results. Ungrounded and unfocussed fears, lead to permanent anxiety states that can have devastating implications for the psyche.

Finding significant meaning for that psychological pain can significantly reduce the suffering and even settle the fear arousal down to a very low level.

For example,on realising the 'real' cause of the emotions that overwhelm him or her and feeling empowered by that knowledge, a person addicted to another person in a failed relationship can gain much relief from suffering. Yet the pain of the feelings of rejection and loss can continue without the suffering resulting from the victim mentality and the associated self pity. I am seeing this at the moment in helping an associate through such a crisis. His psychological pain is ever present but his suffering (mental anguish)is reduced dramatically as a result of his change of attitude to his pain (his emotional arousal).

Does that answer your question satisfactorily?

You further asked, "what gives you the idea, that if one is out to win then somebody else has to lose? It is not true." You appear to have taken my statement out of context. I was talking within the context of competition policy as is practiced between rival commercial enterprises - not generally. Of course, I strongly believe that cooperation between individuals and groups often results in a win-win situation. Cooperation, not competition, is the hope of humankind in saving this planet. Of course, I agree with your arguments from within the context that you are stating.

November 23, 1999
4:49 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Tears.
I find 'soul bearing' very emotionally satisfying but highly non-productive. I am not looking for emotional support. I am looking for my answers to life's questions; for stimulating thinking. I churn the responses as a way of experiencing this process. I am not active on the other support threads for this reason. Perhaps this thread should be on the 'Social issues BB'. Surely, you are not suggesting that all responses have to have a balance between the emotional and intellectual characteristics.

This threat is about 'man's search for meaning'. It is a philosophically and psychologically based thread by its very essence; therefore intellectually biased. Frankl's book, whilst very moving, was about finding answers; finding meaning. Logotheraphy, which occupies the second half of the book, is very intellectual.

About your "control" question, I am not sure what you mean here. I can see several possible implications. Could you be a little more specific?

Do I "dislike vulnerability"? Does anyone like it? However, my early realisation, that we all seem to be very vulnerable, was my jumping of point for my journey of asking 'why'. "Life is a fatal disease and the prognosis is death" This saying fascinated me. I found the existing religious answers totally flawed. Vulnerability is a fundamental part of nature's creation, sustenance and destruction cycles. Why?

November 23, 1999
5:14 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Kitten.

My greatest fear, being an renegade Catholic, is that God is a Catholic. I will be relieved if God is chanting 'Hare, hare, Krishna' 🙂

You said "...but I sense an underlying current of some, Je ne sais quoi." Who is? I strongly suspect that the 'self' is not the 'I' who I think I am, but the 'Self' playing the role of a vulnerable entity seeking 'Itself'.

You asked, "And is something only worth having if we have to work for it?" What is it that we can 'have'? Everything is transient by its very nature. We desparately cling to the passing flotsam and jetsam trying to stop the process some how; as if we can. We yearn for constancy for 'having'. We only have the process. Outcomes are illusory; they are part of yet another process.

"To achieve eternal life, one has to suffer?" Is eternal life an outcome? Or yet another process? I suspect that we already have 'eternal life' now; as the 'Self' beyond time. Time is a 'cause and effect' illusion which is part of human awareness of the 'dream' that we call life on earth.

"If rape is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it" This seemingly horrific saying has profound wisdom. We can choose to suffer or not. The kingdom of heaven or hell is now. It is our choice if only we realised it. It is like the Buddhist story about the mouse gnawing away at the vine holding us above the hungry lion below. We notice a strawberry growing on the cliff face as we dangle. We can eat and enjoy the strawberry.....

Kitten, you are a deep thinker, I suspect.

November 23, 1999
5:39 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Cici. You said, "And I...I am a collection of words strung together on the computer screen..." Based on faith and hope alone, I believe that you are really out there somewhere.

"And is connecting with human beings about communication?" This is a very, very good question indeed! R.D. Laing the scottish psychiatrist would certainly say "not always". He 'treats' his patients by first listening carefully to their 'problems'. Then he just sits quietly in their presence for some time without either party speaking. He calls this 'Co-Presence'. He shares their 'present experiences' in a very 'spiritual' way. Then the patient leaves. Invariably, the patient solves his/her own problem. It seems that the unspoken sharing of the problem in co-presence - a connectedness without communication - has a very cathartic effect on Laings' clients. My connectedness in my own relationship with my partner has something of this also.

When you were 'tripping'with Russell did you have any profound spiritual experiences or insights? A friend of mine who was experimenting with LSD during the Timothy Leary, Woodstock, flower power era, experienced 'the other side'. To this day he claims that there is absolutely no connection or relevance whatever between the two 'worlds' of existence. He saw the neurons of his mind interacting. He saw magnificent mandala patterns. Interesting?

November 23, 1999
9:50 pm
Avatar
VRJ
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 27, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tez
"My greatest fear, being an renegade Catholic, is that God is a Catholic. I will be relieved if God is chanting 'Hare, hare, Krishna' 🙂 "

hahahahheeeheeehohaheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!! I haven't laughed so much in a long time, you do that to me!
no response required
aaaaaahh hahahahahahahahahhaahahahahahooo

November 24, 1999
12:18 am
Avatar
kitten
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tez, Yes, I am a deep thinker, as we all are--the reason for being here. My intelligence and life experiences are just different than others(slightly).
I do believe that emotion is tied to search for meaning
after all,Frankl whilst digging into the cold hard earth thought of intimate conversations with his wife.
"...love is as strong as death". She was the light that shined in the darkness. He sought reason for his life, but knew that her love was without boundaries. A peek into your soul can reveal many answers... I suspect your course is more linear than mine--I am a bit circular in my search. Maybe gender plays a role. I think everyone and everything holds a piece of information, a clue. Yes, this is eternal life, a cycling of events, yet, there is also something else. Maybe, just as your linear path and my circular path are different, they need to converge in some sort of Mandela in order to unlock the mysteries. Thatbringsme back to one of my favorite subjects: the unification of the anima and the animus. Man's search for the Holy Grail...the cauldron...the divine feminine
A complete Gestalt of male and female. Yes, yes, I'm rambling again...not straight forward, very un-male. Perhaps I have ADD like my daughter! That does have to be a clue--the anima/animus concept keeps coming up in everything from literature to psychology. And if my friend is correct the triangle in hyraglyphics is a symbol for female. A large tomb that is a symbol for woman? Hummm? Now, if something involving death is female, don't you think it appropriate to investigate the female side of thought:emotion? You can't over look anything. Okay, so rational thought is not the same as emotion, but forget about all that and just go with it...And in my poetic, silly self, I would like to offer that maybe opening(being vulnerable) is like birth...exposing one's self to the elements and hoping for growth. One more thing...before your fingers fly to the keyboard...God is probably a woman...and a Baptist to boot, so no worries!

November 24, 1999
8:48 am
Avatar
elimae
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 29, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I am in search for "Does the way men manage thier anger effect thier health" I have found limited information and minimal statistics. One thing I am not able to find is the theoretical framework used in working with men who are angry. Does anyone have anyfeed back on this topic?

November 24, 1999
11:43 am
Avatar
Cici
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tez...

LSD, hell, any hallucinogens, from peyote and mescaline, to inhalants like nitrous oxide or amyl-nitrate, certainly do expand consciousness. Not that I would do any of them again. I cerainly have had my fill!

What I saw while tripping made me change my way of seeing the world and other people. I remember once, after eating shrooms, I saw tribal face paint glowing on everyone's faces. I've seen the world separated and re-pieced into fractals. I've seen the world colored by and eerie blue glow, I've seen the ground, roots, trees, pulsing and breathing, ever so slowly. I've also seen maggots squirming on my bed, and a wall hanging turn into a bloody, dripping animal skin. Ick.

I don't regret doing or seeing any of this. I think before I ate hallucinogens, I saw the world in terms of my own experience. Now I have experienced a vast reality that exists, I think, if you know how to look deeper and see with more clarity than humdrum human education allows. It was almost as if Someone took out my eyes and gave me new ones for six hours. After tripping, you're always a different person. That's scary to think about, too...the old you dies, the new you is born with all the knowledge you had before plus some amazing new stuff.

In the end, maybe communication isn't about speaking. I've certainly had those arguments, you know the kind, where each person sits and waits to resume their lecture, never listening to the other person. Like Joni Mitchell said, "love is touching souls." Maybe true honest communication involves that deeper connection?

November 24, 1999
11:54 am
Avatar
eve
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tez,
thanks for your definition of psychological pain. I think it's a good answer to my question, but it leaves me wondering about the cognitive part of pain and suffering. In my experience it is difficult enough to properly recognize physical pain (and my first reaction would always be to go and avoid it if possible, even before I decide whether I want to suffer or not), but with psycological pain, I don't know.
More often than not I found that my suffering had to do with unability on my side to realize pain or suffering because that made it impossible to localize the cause properly, often I didn't realize I was in pain (because I'm quite good at giving reasons to pain, at avoinding to suffer?), or with a perception of pain where already a lot of interpretation on my side was involved (like: I'm afraid to realize that I suffer, because then I would have to look for the pain in a place where I don't want to find it - That's at least one complete circle). This tells me two things: my problems were comparatively small, because a lot of people have very clear overt reasons for their pain and have to deal with that. And to me the realization of pain is not the beginning of suffering. Normally when I can locate that there is fear it is the beginning of a cure, because I can work on finding the reason for it (again: externally or in my attidude to people, situations...). When I can't find the real reason I tend to go in circles and, jes try this and that to relieve my suffering (for example to try and give it sense), but until I can get to the ground of the problem (find the right question to ask) I won't resolve it. And - lucky me - there have been only few problems in my life where I had to accept that the pain is there and find a way to live whith it, normally I go for avoiding it (Although I think lying back and enjoy the rape certainly would't occur to me, but I might just be lucky and be too angry to be humiliated).
But all that is only retrospective, isn't it? What I'm looking for is a concept for life that is not only good for finding out what to do whith pain, once it comes along, but for replacing pain with an awarenes that can avoid most of the everyday pains, preventive action - not out of fear of pain, but because we can, and wouldn’t it be fun! What about that? And I would be severely bewildered to die and find a personal god (catholic or sanjassin) smiling benevolently at me, because I just hate being wrong!

Cici,
yes I do believe, that connecting to people has to do with communication, only communication is so much more than words. I think somebody is a good friend when we can happily be silent „at“ each other.
Sorry, I know that can be really difficult when your whole existence is a string of letters on a not so reliable machine (at least my computer is making funny smells and wobbly pictures today, so I might end up being silent at you for a while).
Eve

November 24, 1999
1:12 pm
Avatar
Anonymous
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Rational thinking misses much and emotionally processing our lives works directly with our soul and our higher power which is the true creative and thinking process. For us to remain in our "head" all the time is to lose our on so much and to miss so many answers and questions.

November 25, 1999
4:21 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Kitten.

You mentioned the unification of Jung’s " animus and the anima" as being of one of your "favourite subjects". In India, I was fascinated to learn that the ancient four armed Hindu God Vishnu is a representation of the combination of the male and female, the animus and the anima in one deity. Each of the four hands holds a symbolic attribute. There in one hand is the conch shell with the sound of the eternal sea of knowledge. In another is the mace of self mastery. In a third hand is the lotus flower of purity and soul consciousness as opposed to body consciousness and in a fourth hand is the spinning swadashanchakradari (Swastika) which is the spinning of the cycles of birth, life and death. The mysticism is intense. I often wonder if Jung was a student of Hinduism; he was certainly a mystic.

On a more down to earth basis, I suspect that when both the left and right hemispheres of the human brain are fully utilised, a human being is experiencing at an optimum level. As it seems that most men are predominantly ‘left brained’ and most women predominantly ‘right brained’ it is little wonder that men do not ‘understand’ women and vice versa. It would seem to me that in an ideal world in some very distant future, humanity will have evolved to the extent that both hemispheres are utilised to the maximum; the animus and anima will be’ hand shaking’ in equilibrium within each individual. By then, not to be so will probably be considered to be in a state of mental illness.

As sentient beings, perhaps it is our charter to experience life to the fullest extent possible given our present mind states. It is my belief that the very meaning for human life is centred in the instantaneous experiencing of each awareness for its own sake. Obviously the greater the awareness the more in depth the experience. This is not to imply that experiencing with low awareness has any lesser value. It implies the vastness of the potential for humanity’s experiential spectrum.

November 25, 1999
4:22 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Cici.

You said, " ….."love is touching souls." Maybe true honest communication involves that deeper connection?" Deep stuff! It is as if God exploded ‘Its’ awareness into ‘fractals’ called human beings, each with an illusory needy human body. It is as if each fragmented awareness craves both separateness and unification at the same time. Perhaps it is our deeply unconscious knowledge of our true identity that drives us towards unification (love) and our superficial illusory body consciousness that drives us apart (fear). Is this duality a prerequisite for the drama of life? Is it all in the Divine design? Is this tension between these two polar opposites what life is all about? What do you think?

November 25, 1999
4:24 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Eve.
Wow! Another very insightful response. Where did all you people come from so suddenly.
You said about my response: " …it leaves me wondering about the cognitive part of pain and suffering." This is an excellent point of focus.

What I am aware of as ‘pain’ is my awareness of a perception of a threat to my well being and therefore ultimately my life. It may be that my fear arousal has a physical basis such as an injury to my person. Alternatively, it could be a perception of a threat from my environment such as the threat of the sack coming from my boss. Either way my cognition is of ‘danger’. I see this awareness as the warning signals that I call ‘pain’.

Obviously I should rectify the cause of pain signals if possible. Whether I suffer as a result of these pain signals or not depends largely upon my beliefs about the ramifications of the signals for my state of well being. For example, if I were to believe that I am an eternal spiritual ‘being’ that only temporarily occupies my body and that I, the spiritual entity, am totally unaffected by my earthly experiences, then I will not suffer as a result of pain. I see suffering as the repeating cognition that my ‘will’ is not being complied with when it ‘should’ be; when suffering, my cognition is that my ‘desires’ and perceived ‘needs’ are not being met on an ongoing basis and possibly never will be. Even though the ‘pain’ may continue, acceptance and ‘letting go’ of inevitable outcomes are antidotes for suffering. Such acceptance can be achieved by realising that certain pain is unavoidable and the belief that the ‘damage’ causing that pain is illusory. Faith in a belief can "move mountains".

You made the profound statement, "I'm afraid to realize that I suffer, because then I would have to look for the pain in a place where I don't want to find it." What springs to mind is the Jungian ‘shadow’. Jung described his life as a journey down into a deep, dark, damp pit wherein at the bottom he embraced the ‘clod of earth’ that was himself. Jung went where most of us fear to go; into our ‘shadow’ and to embrace it as our own. Denial of certain aspects of the ‘self’ is the source of much suffering.

Is this your experience?

November 25, 1999
4:30 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Tears.
You said, "...Rational thinking misses much and emotionally processing our lives works directly with our soul and our higher power which is the true creative and thinking process."

I agree that the intellect, of itself, is limited by our ignorance. I am somewhat puzzled though, by the concept of "emotional processing" being the "true creative and thinking process".

As I understand it, the seat of the emotions, the amygdala, is in the primitive ‘old’ brain. Emotional processing of sensory input signals relies on the pre-conditioning of emotional responses in emotional memory. LeDoux’s ‘short cut’ highlights the primitive brain in action emotionally processing prior to the evolution of the cortex. Since we now have evolved the cortex - which includes the intellect - to moderate both our conditioned and unconditioned emotionally processed responses, I am having difficulties seeing this primitive emotional processing as being the "true creative and thinking process".

Have I misinterpreted what you said?

November 25, 1999
4:48 pm
Avatar
Cici
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Wow, Tex. I often thought about that possibility. People too concerned with the superficial, illusory physical existence often complain of being unhappy or dissatisfied, perhaps because they deny what deep down everyone knows...hmmm...

When you truly communicate with someone, you feel a deeper bond or connection with them. Sometimes, being face to face with a person can actually *inhibit* communication, have you ever experienced that? I know a couple that can only argue effectively if they are on the phone. They can't argue face to face! The truth is stranger than fiction. Happy turkey day!

November 26, 1999
10:03 am
Avatar
kitten
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tez,
Didn't Jung say we HAD to embrace our shadow self...to truly know one's complete self? There is an excellent book called "Romancing the Shadow" by Connie Zweig that deals with this issue and our taking on of archetypes. Very insightful... I still believe all of these stories, including the story of The Fisher King, hold some clue to the answers we've been seeking!

November 26, 1999
12:10 pm
Avatar
eve
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tez, first a reply from me to your last letter to tears:
I understood (exaggerated, so sorry for that 😉 but it might make you laugh?): Emotions are more primitive than intellect, so let's all go for the more modern, intellectual way of thinking (seriously?, you don't sound like somebody who jumps for "modern" approaches generally). Could it be that you put emotion on one side and intellect on the other side and let them play win-lose games in your 'self'? Cooperation is the way! I guess that was what I was aiming at with my question how to best recognize pain or suffering, to me it's emotions that lead the way. Then, when I learn to realize and analyse my emotions / feelings properly, I need all the intellect I can muster, for sorting things out. But emotions are there and - at least to me - they are not immediately open to the intellect, because I need some training to be properly aware of my feelings, often it begins with a that's-odd-kind-of-feeling, and then I know I have to start looking more closely. As I said before: as soon as I have the emotion ('have' as in gotcha, it takes some hunting to find the right one) somewhere where my intellect can go and analyse it, things are allready getting better, (if they were bad at all).
And yes, "big" emotions, regardless of their colour, just by their intensity tend to make me afraid (they take away my selfcontroll, when I'm not quick enough in reacting, and integrating). But sometimes it is worse to let my selfcontrol have her way, because, ja, well, because. Because it doesn't feel right? Because I miss a lot of fun / expierience..., when I controll away all the adventurous big emotions?
Have to go now, but I'll be back next week, promise.
Eve

Forum Timezone: UTC -8
Most Users Ever Online: 247
Currently Online:
45
Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
onedaythiswillpass: 1134
zarathustra: 562
StronginHim77: 453
free: 433
2013ways: 431
curious64: 408
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 49
Members: 110932
Moderators: 5
Admins: 3
Forum Stats:
Groups: 8
Forums: 74
Topics: 38540
Posts: 714216
Newest Members:
thomasalina, genericsmartdrugs, 才艺, stanley, LarteyWellnessGroup, dr ado spell caster
Moderators: arochaIB: 1, devadmin: 9, Tincho: 0, Donn Gruta: 0, Germain Palacios: 0
Administrators: admin: 21, ShiningLight: 572, emily430: 29

Copyright © 2019 MH Sub I, LLC. All rights reserved. Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Cookie Policy | Health Disclaimer