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Living a lie
April 12, 2003
9:53 pm
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We just got back from visiting our 21-year-old daughter at school. She got into a big argument with us during our visit because she felt that we don't trust her. She says that she doesn't want us in her life unless we can forget everything she has done in the past and act like nothing has happened.

Our daughter has told so many lies to us over the years that it is difficult for us to believe what she says. During our visit today, she told us two lies that we know of for certain. I know she wants to start fresh and we would like to do that too. But it is hard to give her our trust when she does nothing to earn it. Am I way off base here?

I guess that discussion caused me to think about my life during the 4-hour drive home.

I'm afraid that today's argument was unavoidable because we had to discuss her car. That car has been a constant source of bickering since she was 16 years old. I normally try to avoid controversial topics when we see her. And, I overlook even her most obvious lies because I want to have a nice visit with her and don't want to start a fight.

It dawned on me during the drive home, that I do the same thing everywhere else in my life too.

I have tried to have discussions with my wife about the problems in our marriage. But, those discussions always end up with her crying and both of us feeling bad. So, what do I do? I play along with her fantasy that everything is just fine.

Some of you have followed my struggles with my 6-year relationship with my assistant, Elvira. I have truly ended that relationship in my mind and don't ever want to be pulled back into believing that we could be together. But, she continues to tell me that she loves me and wants me. And, she will often walk up behind me and kiss my cheek or touch me in an affectionate way. I try to act a neutral as I can. But, sometimes, I find myself doing and saying things just to avoid obviously rejecting her and starting a fight.

Some questions come to mind.

How can I continue to live the fantasies created by my daughter, wife and Elvira ... when everything I see tells me they are fantasies?

If I play along with their fantasies, isn't everything I do just as big of a lie?

How can I be honest with these people without alienating my daughter, destroying my marriage and ruining an otherwise good working relationship?

April 12, 2003
11:23 pm
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JWT, is the working relationship really worth the turmoil you are putting yourself through? You seem to think that Elvira is special in the way that she does her work. She's an executive assistant. Yeah, good ones are worth their weight in gold, but there are also LOTS of them out there. You can get a college grad who is further daunted by the economic environment to do this work for you, do it great, and do it with a smile. You could also pay him or he half of what you pay Elvira and they'd be thrilled with it. You have said repeatedly that you don't think much of Elvira... why are you sacrificing your happiness and peace of mind for her to have a job? Why not let her fiance support her instead? I'm sure she won't go hungry...

C'mon JWT, you can do better than this!

April 13, 2003
1:27 am
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gingerleigh: I assure you that my biggest problem this evening is not Elvira. Right now I am much more worried about my daughter.

As for Elvira ... try as she might, she is not putting me through much turmoil because I don't care about us on a personal level any longer. Elvira is a classic narcissist and I see her now for what she is. I know that I can't believe anything she tells me. But, that is an example of the pattern and the problem I am talking about in this thread.

Everyone in my life is lying to me and maybe to themselves too. Yet, I go along with the fiction because I don't want to fight with them. I know each relationship is phony. By not having the courage to be really honest with everyone, my life has become a big lie too.

April 14, 2003
4:15 pm
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JWT, Being a phony or in my case a fraud is not a good place. Pretending everything is ok, isn't the way we are supposed to be living our lives. I have spent most of my life treating people a certain way so they would like me and it shouldn't be that way. I think it compromises our souls and causes unrest in our lives. Maybe for once be honest with yourself and figure out how to start this day being true to yourself and being the real you. Then go from there. As far as your daughter, how about calling a truce and seeing if the two of you can work on improving your relationship. Ask her what she thinks would help to improve the relationship. Good luck.

April 14, 2003
6:54 pm
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Ya know its funny no matter how old they are they still want boundry lines, they force us into parenting, damn it. They know us real well, and will push , pull, what ever to get their needs met, and that is not our job, is it ? Live the truth, despite the consequences, she will respect you for it, past her immature anger. Your tossing all the fruits in the same bowl, get serious, with you, and your child that wants a father to appear.

April 15, 2003
11:24 am
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JWT~

How very co-dependent of you. We are the peacekeepers!! =)

Try to speak the truth, try it once, tell someone how you really feel. Tell them what is really going on, tell them how something makes you feel. Try it once, you'll like the way it feels and you'll start doing it little by little.

Start with the teller at the bank that did something wrong, or the waiter, or even yourself. Start by being honest with yourself, with what you are feeling. You don't always have to be the good guy. Be honest with what you feel and then express that.

When Elvira does her little "somethings", tell her you'd rather she didn't and that you feel uncomfortable with her doing that now. It will only take once and I think she'd understand.

Once you start, you'll love the feeling it gives you.

Good luck. I struggle with this one daily!!!!

April 15, 2003
3:53 pm
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jwt,

sounds that you know a lot better what you want than last year - just try to act on it little by little. But act on it you'll need to - or you'll just grow old repeating the same old treadmill - whithout getting anywhere.

And: be proud that you made it that far! It sure doesn't feel comfortable, but it's heaps better that spiraling slowly further downhill whith closed eyes.

Good luck to you.

April 16, 2003
12:33 am
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I really don't understand myself sometimes. I don't seem to have trouble being honest with people on a professional level at work. I seem to have a little more trouble with this when I'm not at work. But, I can still tell a salesman or bureaucrat what I think when it is important to me. When it comes to my personal life, I am a coward.

I am an only child and all of my family passed away years ago. And, I have very few friends. All I really have is my daughter, my wife and the people at work.

My daughter wants me to believe that she is trustworthy and has never had any personal problems.

My wife wants me to believe that our marriage is happy.

Elvira wants me to believe that we can continue forever to be lovers.

But, I don't believe any of these things because I can see the truth with each of these relationships. The things I am being asked to believe are lies.

Complete honesty would destroy each relationship and I would be alone. I am scared to death to be so totally alone. But, that's my situation and I don't know what to do.

April 16, 2003
12:40 am
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There's a difference between being 'alone' and being 'lonely', JWT.

It may not be as bad as you think. Besides are you really 'happy' with the life you are currently leading?

April 16, 2003
1:40 am
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I know there is a difference between being alone and being lonely.

Ever since I was a child, I have been able to enjoy my own company. I know that this was caused, in large part, by the lack of affection and attention by my parents.

I still enjoy those rare opportunities to be alone. It's like all the pressure to please someone is gone and I can just do what I want to do.

But, I have also learned that, after a while, being alone loses its attraction. Feelings of loneliness and isolation grow and become very real. I feel sorry for myself and become anxious and depressed. I am terrified by the idea that I may have to lead the rest of my life like that.

April 16, 2003
1:46 am
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No, Squeezles, I am not "really happy" with the life I am currently leading. Sometimes, I fool myself into believing the fantasy lives that people around me want me to believe. But, that never lasts very long. Pretty soon, something will happen that will bring the truth crashing back into reality.

April 16, 2003
1:47 am
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But again are you really happy with the life you are currently living? What do you think needs to change for you to be happy? How can you achieve that? Can you draw an 'action plan' for how you can achieve what you want?

April 16, 2003
8:39 am
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I don't have the slightest clue what I need to change.

I keep working on my relationships with my daughter and wife. But, nothing seems to improve. Our family is just totally dysfunctional. In any case, at the core, I know that the only person I can change is myself.

Our daughter quit going to counseling because she prefers to think her problems are physical rather than mental.

For more than a year, I went to counseling with two different counselors. They had no interest in digging into my childhood issues that I believe formed the person I am. They only wanted to deal with the day-to-day situations.

Neither counselor had any real constructive suggestions about what I could do about our family problems. Both of them believed that our daughter had some potentially serious mental problems. And, both of them agreed that I probably married too young, that people and relationships change over time and that I am using work to escape an unhappy marriage.

I was so totally dissatisfied with the counseling experience that I have absolutely no desire to go back to counseling with my wife. She has a know-it-all Pollyanna attitude and a habit of sinking into quiet remorse whenever life doesn't go her way. Counseling with her would be a nightmare.

Since I can't seem to fix either relationship, I guess I could just walk away from both of them. But, the idea of sitting by myself day after day thinking about the emotional wreckage I left behind, doesn't seem like much of a plan either.

April 16, 2003
9:27 am
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JWT, sometimes we have to rock the boat to make things change. You mentioned earlier that if you were completely honest that it would destroy the relationships. What makes you so sure? For example, I have a terrible relationship with my mother. She has for the past 35 years told me how disappointed she is in me for the choices I made in my life. It wasn't until 6 months or so that I had had enough. I wrote her a letter telling her that the comments she made upset me and I wanted her to quit doing that. She pretended she never received the letter. When I confronted her, she made a comment that maybe God meant for her not to receive that letter. We discussed it and among other things she mentioned how disappointed she was about me moving in with my exhusband before we got married. That was the breaking point. I wrote her another letter telling her that I wanted her to quit making those comments to me, that she needed to accept me for who I was and if she decided to continue treating me that way, I would have no choice but to limit the contact I had with her. It was scary for me to take that step and also to realize the possible consequence of never speaking to my mom again. But, I made the choice that I was not going to treated this way anymore. I guess what I am saying is...Be honest with yourself and your wife, daughter and Elvira. Let your wife know you are unhappy and you don't know how to improve the relationship, but you want to improve it. Tell your daughter the same thing. As far as Elvira, let that part of your life go and keep her out of your life. You deserve the right to be happy. Good Luck!

April 16, 2003
11:45 am
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JWT~

Why not try some of these things instead of assuming you know the outcome? You have to give things a chance. You really can't just presume to know what will happen, like with your wife going to counceling with you. Maybe give it a try, at least once or twice. Then, if it turns out like you said you can stop....but at least you would have tried.

Try being very honest with Elvira, tell her that you are trying to get your life pulled together. If your honesty destroys that relationship does it matter? If you being honest about the way you feel about her now turns her away, then she didn't have feeling for you anyway.

Example: The man I had an affair with 3 years ago just asked me this week if I find him attractive and if I'll marry him. (we are friends) I always answer a flat out NO to the proposal.....but then I tell him that yes, he is attractive but I am not attracted to him any longer. He actually understands (I think). It has helped me to be more honest. I start feeling bettter about myself when I can be honest with others about the way I feel.

You cannot live in the fantasies, I think you are realizing that.

What do you think your first steps could be?

Tell me JWT, what are the postive things going on in your life right now?

Who are you if you are not a husband, a father, a lover? Can you tell us?

April 22, 2003
1:21 am
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I have been doing some thinking over the past week.

First, it is all a big lie and I think everyone knows it.

My wife and I have had several long discussions about how I feel. I don't like hurting her. And, I usually feel rotten after the discussions too. The discussions have resolved nothing. They just make me angry and distant. And, they make her insecure and even phonier than she was.

I have also had discussions with my daughter. Honesty is the last thing she wants to hear and makes her very angry. All she wants is some polite conversation and for us to pay her bills. She withdraws completely at the first hint of emotion.

Elvira knows it is over. But, it doesn't seem to matter to her. You see, I am just a consumable commodity to her. Like everyone else in her world, I am here to provide her with a narcissistic supply of attention that she demands. She can see that the supply from me has run dry. But, she won't stop until she is convinced that she has wrung every last drop she can out of me.

Maybe I am predicting how these people react when their fantasies are challenged. But, I have been through the mill with each of them. I have seen how they react and how I react to them. My predictions are based on a lot of experience.

Okay, that's enough of that. The reason I decided to post on this thread again was a thought that occurred to me today.

My world has been turned upside down and I don't know what it should look like any more.

The illness of my daughter and my affair with Elvira shook me to my core. It showed me things, both good and bad, about life and about myself. It caused me to identify problems with my life that I had tried to ignore for so many years.

Before, I just accepted life for what it was. Change was not even considered. I drowned my doubts in work, marijuana and sex. Now, all I seem to have are unanswered questions about happiness, love, honesty and the person I really am.

My familiar environment has been replaced by one I have never seen. It is like I am floating in space or deep beneath the ocean. I just don’t know which way is up.

April 22, 2003
8:15 am
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hi jwt i havent posted to you before i dont think, as for feeling like your world has been turned up side down, thats hard, i do understand where your coming from in feeling the way you do tho, i quess its hard seeing you daughter ill, hope she gets well soon, your post seem really postive today as you know whats wrong in your life and what needs to be fixed or changed, i quess its one of them things life throws back at you, telling you take it slow, look around at what you have, and make the best of it if you can, you will find your way up, out of space and the oncen, as you know whats wrong in your life, i hope this helped, sorry if it didnt, hope your day goes well,

April 23, 2003
10:54 am
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JWT~

I wrote yesterday but I guess it was one that got erased with the rest.

I just wanted to let you know I understand exactly what you are going thru. But you are doing fine, this is another step in the journey.

I lived the illision of being in the perfect marriage for years. Put on the pretense that my life was grand, and it was, by all accounts from the outside looking in. I had the perfect house, the nice car, my husband worked all the time, I didn't have to, I got to stay home with the kids and hang out with my friends. I did the day to day things like "normal" families do and everything was just so easy!!! Easy but a lie. I was living the ultimate lie, having an affair, my husband was a workaholic and I wasn't happy!!!

It's been three years, my life is anything but easy. I've had to fight the demons and learn to like myself...flaws and all. I had to move into a much smaller house, I work full time and still take care of my 3 kids with no help. Life is hard. But, I'm happy with me, I'm happy with my job, my kids are happy, and life is happy.....and it's real!!

Oh believe me, when days are really bad, I think about those easy days when I didn't have to worry about anything when life was easy. But I quickly remember that I had no idea who "I" was then, and lived my life to please everyone else and pretended to be happy.

Life is hard now, but it's all worth it because I am truly happy!

You'll get there too JWT. You'll get there and be happy with yourself and know that this journey is happening for a reason.

April 24, 2003
1:13 pm
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i can sort of agree with you.. I have just had a crash where i really don't know who i am or what i'm doing.. fortunately my husband recognises the need for me to figure it out. so i am 'on vacation' from my family while i get my medications straight and my emotions too.

it's hard to suddenly look around and know 'I'm not in Kansas anymore'. the questions i keep getting over in my head sound alot like a travel agency.. "where am I going, and when do I want to get there"

well.. once we get that figured out, that's about half the battle.

so you don't know who you really are. Find him. a friend called it "dating yourself" take a leisurely meal, something you like, and just think about what you like about yourself. what you wanted to do in highschool that you could go accomplish now. find something you used to enjoy, and try it again. I tend to be very artsy/ craftsy and hands on. i've started cleaning my parents house and making quilts again. i find the solitude working on them to be very theraputic, and the finished results to be unbelievably rewarding. but that's me. what Do you want?

-TN

April 24, 2003
6:47 pm
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Ahhhhhhhhhhh haaaaaaaaaaa she says this is the first time I have seen you mention marijuana. Not that I have read all of your posts, and not that I am against the use of it, however..... It is the great wall of denial when used. It denies growth, feelings, pain, reality, or movement. Such a great curtain, no judgement, just an observation. It slowly gets thicker, and thicker, although I think alcohol is negative too, the effects of THC are different, you don't really get mad, where alcohol, fuels the anger, go figure. I think THC makes people bi-polar.... calm, then wham all they ignored. Does your wife smoke too ? that would explain her tolorance and phonieness. Ever think of giving it up for a while ? Just to see the changes in you ? Your perspective changes, energy changes, attitude changes ? I am not trying to pin the solution on the use, but it is something to think about, it does make one damn tolorant, and easy to get by.

April 24, 2003
7:03 pm
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Hey JWT,

You're searching for something. Look, then. Look ahead. Stop sifting through the past, get out of the figurative house and look around beyond what you have restricted yourself to. You feel aimless and lost, well heck - join the club.

Sometimes, sitting here in my house after all the BS, looking at my life now - I developed a seizure disorder, no working for 6 months, total change in lifestyle - and I think, no one is perfectly happy. And we all spend our lives looking, looking, looking - for that perfect happiness. Someone. Someplace. Some job. Some tax bracket. Something outside yourself, to shove you manually into being satisfied and fulfilled.

You haven't been living a lie. Life IS change. That's the point. It's right now, not tomorrow, not yesterday. How could it be tomorrow or yesterday, when you are sitting right here, now, thinking, perceiving, absorbing. This is not optimistic, not really. Optimism has been scientifically proven to be based on a certain inability to accurately weigh consequences. Shortcut in brain.

So. Here you are. Here I am. Here we are, after all these years. What does that tell you? And don't say, we're running around in circles.

April 24, 2003
11:22 pm
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A year and a half ago I couldn't tell my a** from a hole in the ground.(haha, tha's what my Grandpa used to say) anyway, you know what I did? I went out and got braces put on my teeth! Not because I wanted to look better or impress anyone. But because I was beginning my divorce and I wanted some distraction from my emotional pain. And boy did I get it!!! If you never had braces on before-ask someone, if you did-try to remember how totally absorbed a person gets when their mouth is so busy moving and pushing, molding, and scratching itself to bits! I'm not a self mutilator, but I did give myself something else to worry about! My whole world revolved around those darn braces! I forgot all my other troubles and focused on me! It taught me that little things can be very big things if you think about them constantly, and sometimes big things can be put on someone else until I can deal with them and then I don't have to think about them. When I used THC to help dull my pain I spent a lot of energy looking for it, hiding it, getting ready to use it, using it, getting over using it, and looking for it again. Now that I don't choose to use drugs anymore I spend my time looking for lots of other things, some days I look for negative things, things to get mad about or things that are unhealthy. But more days I look for good, happy things and I usually find them right in front of my nose! And they always cost less than a bag of weed and munchies!!!! haha. Good luck to you and I hope you have a HAPPY day 🙂

April 25, 2003
2:22 am
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Molly and whohaw are both absolutely right about marijuana. I smoked it since I was a teenager but the frequency really increased about the time I started my affair with Elvira. After that, I was stoned nearly every waking minute and stayed that way for four years. It was an escape just like everything else I was doing to avoid the truth in my life. My wife gave it up several years ago and I gave it up about one year ago. I have seen a tremendous change in my attitude. I think I stopped looking for constant escape and started looking for some answers.

I have found some answers. But, I haven't found nearly enough of them. One of the answers I have found is that I am living a lie. Cici is partly right ... life is change. I was the one who changed. I'm no longer the nineteen year-old kid who married my wife. I'm no longer the blind father who ignored all of my daughter's problems. And, I am no longer the lovesick romantic desperate for a life with Elvira. The problem is that my wife, daughter and Elvira have not really changed. They all still believe in their fantasies. And, they all want me to just go along for the ride. I've changed too much. Just going along for the ride would be living a lie.

TheNikki was right on target with "I'm not in Kansas anymore." For me, Kansas was years and years of trying to escape life. My most recent escape attempts have been drugs, a stupid affair and work. But, I think I have been trying to escape life since I was an insecure little boy. I was "in Kansas" a long time and I don't want to be there anymore. Unfortunately, I can't really reach back into my past and find a solid, happy personality on which to build my future. Now that I've landed here in the Land of Oz, I don't see a yellow brick road anywhere.

April 25, 2003
6:06 am
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Namaste, jwt. Good to hear that you have ?stopped? using THC.

So, only you have changed? Are you certain? Seems to me that perhaps daughter, wife and girlfriend/assistant simply have been unwiling so far to change the things that trouble you, but I'd be willing to bet that they have changed in the year or so I have been reading your posts.

Please go back and read Cici's post. There seemed to me to be a lot of insight there. Shoot, jwt, you are alive! You are capable of activity, no? None of us live in Kansas or in Oz, dear man. Neither Frank Baum nor anyone else has written the stories of our lives. We are writing them even as we type, even as we breathe. Get to the keyboard. Write your life and begin to see that what you have called Oz and Kansas are just you sitting back and allowing others to type on your keyboard.

April 25, 2003
8:55 am
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nikka ... Don't you believe that I have stopped using marijuana?

Yes, I'm sure that everyone has changed. But, each of them still believes in their same old fantasy. I just can't believe in those fantasies anymore. Our marriage is not okay. My daughter does have some serious mental problems. And, Elvira and I don't have a future together.

To continue with the Frank Baum analogy ... that's the difference between Kansas and Oz. In Kansas, I was just going along with everyone's fantasy. Or, as you say, I was just sitting back and allowing everyone to type on my keyboard. I guess those last desperate attempts to escape were really more like the tornado. I was swept up and turned round and round. When I stopped trying to escape reality, I found myself here in Oz with the truth staring me in the face. But, I don't want to go back to Kansas and I know I can't stay here either. Unfortunately, I don't see a yellow brick road and I don't think there is a wizard to solve my problems.

All I have is me. And, I don't have a clue about who I really am.

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