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Left but can I change things
March 15, 2000
6:29 pm
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KSUE
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I have never done anything like this before. I have just left my husband of 6 years. When we got married I was just barely 18. He was always jealous and controlling but I just thought it was because he was insecure and that things would change when we married and he knew I wanted only him. But things just slowly got worse. Slow enough that I couldn't see it. My family and friends didn't like him and they all warned me, but I saw what he was inside, scared and lonely, I didn't want to change him I just wanted to hold him when he needed it, listen when he talked. Whatever he wanted. That was the problem. I did whatever he wanted. I was out going when we got married, and now I just hope I blend in and that people won't see what I see in myself, nothing. I gave up my family and friends and dreams and values. I didn't even see it. Most of the abuse was emotional, or sexual, there was physical and when I finally saw the effect it was having on my son I knew that I may not care about myself but that my son deserved better.
Now my son (5) is so angry and he doesn't know how to control it and I know he has to let go of this angry but how do I help him. He used to be so reserved and guarded now that he knows he can express himself it seems he has lost control. I don't know if it is hereditary or learned from the way he say his dad treat me. I don't have any answers but I do know that going back isn't even an opption. I hadn't worked in 5 years and I never went to school now I find myself trying to raise 2 kids on no experience jobs. I miss my kids, I missed my daughters first steps and words, I can't help but think is this what I would rather have. Someone else raising my kids, or me being in a abusive relationship. Any advise would be appreciated.
KSUE

March 15, 2000
7:29 pm
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BROC
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ksue-

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally, SOMEONE willing to leave when the ship has sunk instead of drownding with it. Finally!

I applaud you! That takes such spirit and courage, God, it is refreshing.

This is tough, as you know, but it will get harder.

Where are your kids now? What type of support group do you have? Friends, family? Can you see a therapist? What is your status?

Broc-

March 15, 2000
7:31 pm
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BROC
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PS - I am not sure if anger is hereditary, CICI might know that one. But I know for a FACT he got it from seeing dad hit mom. You can take that to the bank. But first, fix you. You need to get some therapy ASAP. Then your kids need a dose. I can promise you if you don't do that, they will end up just like you...either abusing or being abused the rest of their lives.

Speaking of which, did your mom leave your dad for abusing her, or is she still there with him? Just a hunch.

March 16, 2000
7:41 am
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janes
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Go girl....Look into grants and financial aid...get into college and get your kids back. Can your family help?

YOur bravery and guts are great. Yes it is hard....but you and your kids are much better off. TAKE all the visitation you can git. Get a lawyer and be honest abouut the abuse. You will get the kids

Check out http://www.drirene.com (or net) It's dr Irene's verbal abuse (site) she has several different postings regarding how to leave, what to do etc.

GOOD luck let us know what's happening!!

March 21, 2000
11:21 am
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KSUE
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Sorry it has taken so long to write back. I have custody of my kids. But he is fighting for them, he thinks since he makes more money than I that they would be better off with him. He keeps calling and wanting me back, but I am finally starting to like myself again. He just can't stand that he lost control of me and so I know he is trying to get me back by fighting for the kids. I can't lose them, And I just have to believe in the system. I have a lawyer, but it sure is expensive. I haven't started any therepy for me or my kids. I just don't know where I will get the money right now.
KSUE

March 21, 2000
1:26 pm
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BROC
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KSUE,

HANG IN THERE. Don't go back! You know what you will get if you do.

He has lost control, your right, and will do anyting to get it back. You no longer predictable, and its eating the shit out of him. Good.

Keep on your path! Focus.

And remember, if you do what you DID, you get what you GOT.

Comprende'?

B-

March 21, 2000
3:07 pm
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KSUE
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Yes I do understand, Some nights are just hard and others I feel fine about. But there is always an ache, a loniliness. But I have learned that I don't need to feel that ache I just need to heal and the ache will go.

March 22, 2000
2:38 pm
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Brenda
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Broc:
This post where you state "finally someone has the guts to leave the sinking ship instead of drowning with it" insinuating that others like Hazza and myself who are working it out and healing without having to LEAVe are drowning and stupid is really pissing me off!
You come over very self righteous and arrogant most of the time and its time for you to take the humble pill.
It IS possible for women to heal within their relationships if there is HOPE and the partner is also showing signs of change for the positive. AND I DO PERSONALLY RECOMMEND THIS, BEING A WOMAN WHO HAS BEEN THROUGH THIS TYPE OF SITUATION, UNLIKE YOURSELF.
IT IS ALSO VERY COMMON FOR WOMEN TO LOSE CUSTODY OF THEIR KIDS TO THEIR "ABUSOR" WHEN THEY LEAVE, MEN DO THIS TO PUNISH AND ALSO BECAUSE THEY ARE IN MUCH BETTER POSITIONS FINANCIALLY AND OTHERWISE.
YOU HAVE TO SWALLOW A DOSE OF REALITY HERE, BE CAREFUL WITH THE "TEXT BOOK DOGMA" YOU ARE PREACHING.
Women need to be smart, especially if there are children involved, EVERY SITUATION IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT, TO BLANKET STATEMENT ALL RELATIONSHIPS WITH "GET OUT NOW, LIFE WILL BE BETTER IS B.S"
I advocate taking responsibility for your relationships and yourself, that includes ones where you feel abused, especially with children.
And quite frankly, I am sick of the codependent term being applied to everyone, everyone is different and everyones life and relationships have a different set of circumstances that require different approaches.

March 22, 2000
2:41 pm
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Brenda
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quite frankly, its easy to run away from lifes problems, instead of facing them and asking oneself "how did i help create this?" This is where the true learning, growth and self worth comes in. When the children of this marriage see this change in mom or better yet both parents, it also creates learning and growth in them too.
There is a line between staying and leaving, once that line in the relationship is crossed, well thats when the negatives outweigh the positives.
I must also say, my relationship HAS NEVER BEEN BETTER, AND I HAVE NEVER FELT BETTER......

March 22, 2000
2:44 pm
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Brenda
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I also need to remind you that you are talking about and advising real people with real lives here, ego aside.

March 22, 2000
3:57 pm
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KSUE
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I know I enabled his abusive behavior by making excuses for it and blaming myself( if only I were a better wife...if I just kept my mouth shut... if I could just get the baby to stop crying..)but when I look back and see what I allowed to happen to myself and my family I am appauled. I am better off. I am not saying he is a bad man either, we just can't work out. He needs someone to stand up to him and not allow his behavior and he also needs to understand he has a problem and get help. But that has to be done by himself for himself. If I went back I would be telling him your behavior is acceptable to me, and that would be a mistake for me and my kids.
I know someday I will find someone who will cherish me and my kids. But that day is not in my near future. I have to heal and allow my kids to heal, and when the time is right he will be there. Maybe that sounds like a fairy tale, but I think that God will take care of me as long as I live my life right.
Kelli

March 22, 2000
10:42 pm
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Brenda
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saying to yourself "if only i were a better wife...if I just kept my mouth shut..if I could just get the baby to stop cryin"
IS NOT ENABLING, IT IS A PATHETIC WAY OF THINKING YOU MAY HAVE SOME CONTROL OVER AN UNCONTROLLABLE SITUATION. It is the way I used to think and most "abused women think or have thought"
When I talk about taking responsibility I am talking about looking at your self and realising what issues YOu are bringing to the table to perpetuate the abuse and the suffering with in your relationship(s)and YOURSELF>..

March 22, 2000
11:04 pm
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Brenda
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that ache and loneliness that you feel now that you are away from the abuse is the emptiness that you had from the beginning, it is the emptiness and pain that you did not want to face if you left him, it is the issue that you have brought to the table, it is the low self worth gnawing at your insides saying "fill me, fill me" for it is only YOU that can fill you, not him or any other chaotic, abusive relationship.
All that chaos, abuse kept you from dealing with the real painful stuff, your emptiness. So much energy was put into HIM and trying to change HIM and others who mistreated you, that it preoccupied you, made you feel like a martry and a better person, when in fact you were abusing yourself all along. I know this is harsh to hear, but I just want you and other women to know what I have come to understand after many years.
I feel for you and your children, but the best thing you can do for them, is to NOT go back ( they are usually more violent and he has not stopped at the ultimate emotional abuse - using yoru children ) there is no real hope for your marriage, but there is Major hope for you and your children.
Find the strength and the wisdom to build your self up, into a mama they and you will be proud of, she was there all along. God works in mysterious ways, use this time o f freedom to work on the real problems, your inner emptiness and disconnectedness and purposelessness, and stand tall in your own divinity.
Find a friend or two to support you and join a custody and access support group, court services usually have them for free. God bless

March 23, 2000
8:16 am
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hazza
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Three cheers for Brenda!!!
AS you said Ksue, for you the option was only for you to leave, you were being swallowed up by this relationship, you made the right choice for YOU. I couldn't be more supportive of that decision for you, as you said "he needs someone to stand up to him" you decided that you couldn't or more to the point WOULDN'T do that. Others like myself have decided that we will no longer tolerate the abuse, and have given the other party the option to look at whether they want to stay and face their own issues or leave. If they cannot see by themselves that there are issues to face, then they would be long gone, beleive me you can tell if someone if faking an understanding just becuase they are dependent and can't be without you!

I too am a little tired of the black and white approach some people have on this site, to the point that i am not sure i want to be here anymore, when i have people insinuating that i am in some way stupid!! I first came to this site and found it was very supportive and non-judgemental with a wide variety of people and difference experiences. That appears to have changed. I find that i can quite easily respect someone who has been through a similar situations to myself but i think the boundaries of SEX/RELATIONSHIP ADDICTIONS and PROBLEMS OF CO-DEP AND ABUSE ISSUES IN LONG TERM RELATIONSHIPS are being blurred. how come we who post here are all the "saved" ones and our partners are all doomed to be no more self-aware than an amoeba, just becuase they havent choosen this site or a therapist to "show them the way"?
Many people are aware of their own particular problems, but as always it takes time to work these things through, it is highly arrogant to assume you understand what it is like to be an abusive man or a drinker unless you have been one, being a sex junkie or insecure or whatever is different, you cannot pretend that all these types of problems are the same and you understand them all just becuase your own particular issues were "similar"

I can relate to Ksue because she ha been there and made her own choices about her particulat situation. She and others know what it is like to be there. Someone who has never suffered verbal abuse or someone who has never subjected anyone else to verbal abuse does not know. They can only know about the things they have themselves suffered. anything else is just sitting in judgement.

I used to laugh to myself about women who stayed with abusive men, i had little respect for them. Becuase i could only see things from the outside, i know now that there are many more issues in play than that. I have also seen many people with many issues survive together and grow strong, no-one can tell me that is not possible becuase i have seen it happen.

All i can say is that although therapy is a valid thing, does anyone really expect a therapist who makes their living from selling books, doing seminars and so on really to say anything other than " without me guys- you are fucked" like many organisations, they are just controlling through fear, the fear that without them you are alone and lost. Quite frankly that doesn't wash with me, they are tools, like anything else, they have learned what they know, just like anyone of us here could learn, (and do) they are not Demi Gods, but i bet they sure are wealthy!!!
Peace
Hazza

March 23, 2000
7:24 pm
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BROC
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I just wrote this big long thing to Brenda and Hazza, when it struck me, what does it matter. So I erased it.

I read and re-read your post guys. The words from your mouths THEN, as opposed to NOW.

YOUR WORDS. So, no, I dont have to take that humble pill. You sure didn't mind my first postings for either of you. Broc, your so smart. Broc, your so, this or that.

AND THEN, BOY, HOW IRONIC. WHEN MY ADVICE DOESN'T FIT FOR YOUR SITUATION ANYMORE, BOY HOW THE TABLES TURN. MY ADVICE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE SAME, ITS YOU THAT CHANGED, AND WITH IT, THEN OH, HEY BROC, YOUR WRONG AFTER ALL.

YOU ARE TRYING TO PUT A SQUARE PEG IN A ROUND HOLE. FINE. DO IT IN PRIVATE. DON'T PREACH TO ME, OR ESPECIALLY PEOPLE LIKE KSUE ABOUT HOW TO LIVE HER LIFE.... FOR HER NOT TO GO BACK TO HIM, ETC., WHEN YOU BOTH, YES, BOTH OF YOU HAVE STAYED WITH ABUSIVE MEN.

ISN'T THERE A WORD FOR THAT?

And KSUE, I again applaud you. It is easier to stay with the familiar. Your kids, and you, will be so much better off. Stay on your path. It is the only way. And don't let disagreements you hear here knock you off. You know what is the right answer. You knew it before you came here.

My therapist told me once that that little voice in your head, that one right know you hear asking you "what little voice in your head?" is the voice of truth...the FIRST words you hear. Any words after that are you lieing to yourself.

Hugs to you.

B-

THAT IS COMPLETELY FUCKED UP. YOU

March 23, 2000
7:59 pm
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Brenda
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Some of the stuff you said fit, because its av codep stuff and it applies to women in bad/abusive relationships.
But, mainly Broc, your words are cold, aggressive and im sure Hazza will back me up, down right pretty abusive, and I, for one, do NOT tolerate that any more!

March 23, 2000
8:02 pm
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Brenda
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you are not ALL THAT, we are women, I for one have children, and YOU JUST ARE COMING FROM ANOTHER PLANET.
Talk to me when you no longer dwell in the self centred world of "womaniser" and actually have the responsibility of a marriage and family, then maybe your words will have more credibility and meaning. Frankly, you are way off base applying your blanket codep "get out or drown" statements to every woman who comes on here complaining of a poor relationship.

March 23, 2000
8:04 pm
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Brenda
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Broc, you really need to take some of your own advice. You are into controlling my opinions and the lives and opinions of others IN A BIG WAY!

March 23, 2000
8:17 pm
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Brenda
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OH, and im not preaching to anyone, YOU are the one who was preaching to ksue, and as a woman who has been there, I saw a need for her to also hear my opinion coming from similar suffering as hers. Who are you to judge me or my opinions? Let go....

March 24, 2000
12:09 pm
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hazza
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Broc,
I always applauded your understanding of key co-dep issues, and still do. It is your judgemental advice and black and white thinking that i disagree with and if you check back, i have always dissagreed with that.

there is a difference between sharing your experiences and insight with others and downright preaching on things you DONT understand rather than the things you do understand.

I just personally think you have crossed the line somewhere, especially when you make reference to some peoples stories when posting to a third party on another thread. It is not hypocrisy to say that you have overstepped that subtle line, that is all.

I still agree with much of what you say, but you seem to belive it all like some kind of dogma rather than what it is which is a generality of symptoms that appear to in various ratios in each individual case. I just wish you could be honest enough to stick to what you personally have experienced - ie relationship / sex addiction form of co-dep and not assume you know all other kinds of experiences that in reality you have not been in. When you make sweeping statements about these things fine, but when you give people advice in the way that you do on situations you DO NOT fully understand, you are being a bit irresponsible. It is just that you are starting to cross the line, and i honestly do say that with the same amount of respect i have always had for you. But please remember, you do not know it all, but some people out there will think you do and that is dangerous.
Peace
Hazza

March 24, 2000
12:41 pm
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Brenda
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Broc, I also want you to know that I do respect you, and I am sorry I allowed you to push some of my buttons.
I was in a bad abusive relationship prior to my current ( and final ) one and I got myself out as fast as you could say "ship down" but I knew there was no hope and I now know that he was acting out of fear and pain. I now see this with myself and my husband.
I do not want to say any one is right or wrong here, we all progress in conciousness through different levels.
I can say the suffering in my life has taught me a great deal about myself, people and god.
I might hate and fear my ex or my husband at times, or I might want to do everything possible to prevent similar suffering from happening- these are typical reactions in the early stages of recovery and conciousness. I have learned to pay more attention to my inner agitation and then realized that the abuse and bad relationship issues were born out of his fear and pain as well as my own-now I am in a further growth stage. As my consciousness rises I begin to see that my own inner drama projected the whole scenario in which I played the part of victim, leading to the realization that the abusor and I are two parts of the same karma/dance- insights gained in later recovering, healing and growth stages.
At this point true forgiveness has become available to me. I have linked this truth with my own soul. I have blessed my past ( painful as parts of it has been ) and released to god.
There is now fixed me, we have no fixed identity, everything is not black and white or static, we are always changing and change is good.
Because each of us is a lover one moment and a child the next, a seeker stubornly clinging to old habits, free and yet captive, curious and yet apathetic, secure and frightened at the same time, the healing journey is never a straight line. Each stage melts into the other, and goals have a way of changing. When we grow, each stage melts away into the next when the time comes. You, I and hazza are all adopting the voices of people who are trying to come to terms with our own healing and growth.
Truth has many faces, and when you see a new one, your level of conscious ness rises. Everyone is doing the best they can from their own level of awareness, and reality keeps changing as your conciousness changes.
I have realised my heart/soul has always been in communication with me and over time I have learned to heed what it says. Instead of obeying ego needs, clinging to old habits, and doing things that were dependent upon the past. I now give my spirit most of the attention. Meditation sharpens this attention and makes it easier not to miss the clues to spiritual growth and truth. I have become a god listening to the silent voice of me instead of focusing outward on what once appeared to be chaos and strife.
There is a pattern to everything, and every relationship we bring into our life has something to teach us. When we learn the lesson we are empowered to move on and grow from it, or sometimes the relationship itself becomes empower and grows with us, this does happen broc, it does happen.......
I am also concerned about us defining ourselves "codep" I am so much more than that, we aer beyond definitioin, therefore any attempt to say "I am X" is wrong. YOu are in passage. You are in the process of redefining yourself every day. Aid that process, and you cannot help but leap forward on the path. I now believe in a path of constant self awareness, we must see through our own masks if we want to take them off.....
If we take any issue facing us, our present attitude will be a clue to our deeper blief, and belief is where the real change must occur. A belief lies close to the soul ( thus our debate )It is like a micro chip that keeps sending out the same signal over and over, making the smae interpretation of reality until you are ready to pull out the old chip and install a new one. I installed a new one...really refreshing.

March 24, 2000
6:09 pm
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BROC
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First, Hazza and Brenda, you don't know the whole story about me and what I have been through. There is no rule here that we have to list all of our issues in order to offer advice to others here. I don't ever remember anyone having a problem with what I post here OTHER than the way in which I do it....blunt and straight forward. No bullshit. SOme like it some don't. if you don't, DONT READ IT! Your choice.

Further, as I have said REPEATEDLY, yes, you can heal togehter in a rel. if your BOTH working on it. Lets break that down since it hasn't sunk it as to what it takes for that to really happen.

ANYTHING DONE OUT OF FEAR IS CODEPENDENT THINKING. Or, Brenda, lets call it outer-dependency since you don't agree with a term that is older than you and I put together.

BOTH you AND HAZZAs relationships, specifically the men involved, HAD A MAGICALLY COME TO JESUS EVENT IN WHICH THEY ALL THE SUDDEN REALIZED THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS AND VOWED TO CHANGE.

And gee, coincidently, it was after you BOTH, and I can go back and copy your posts, GAVE THEM A FINAL ULTIMATIM!

Neither of these guys came to you, on their own power, out of the blue, and said Hazza, Brenda, gee, I have been an idiot. I am really going to roll up my sleves. AA, CODA, books, and a therapist to boot....I have signed up for it all. NOT ONE OF THEM!

BOTH, BOTH, BOTH, BOTH, BOTH, OF THEM DID THIS AFTER BRUTAL THREATS FROM BOTH OF YOU. THAT IS FACT!

So, yes I am pissed. Yes, I resent the accusations you have made towards me. Take away the bluntness, and you have THE TRUTH. And as much as both of you would like to think that we ARE all different, WE ARE NOT. We make look and talk and walk differently, but we all share the same core dyfucntional issues. THE SAME. My God, if your line of logic was correct, there would be millions of books in the self help section: codep for alcoholics, codep for drug users, codep for piano players, codpent for .................

Like it or not, the issues we suffer from are interlinked. Some have different spins, but are for the most part the same.

If you are with an alcoholic, he will always be an alcoholic. That is a fact. ONLY WHEN the alcoholic him/herself hits THEIR own bottom, it is ONLY THEM that can fix it.

They cannot be threatened, coirced, nadda, into that. The fact you both threatened them is commom, i have done that, and have had that done to me many many times. And sure, for a time I/They straighted up. FEAR! These guys are only human. They saw that this is the last hurrah. But it WILL NOT LAST. There is an old saying. we are at 80 who we were at eight. That saying is so true. UNLESS, you do A TON of recovery to change. It takes deep observation, therapy, growith, to do that.

(I know hazza, you think you can avoid therapy. I don't because we aren't smart enought to ask the righ questions, and besides, you don't have any idea of how you act, and what makes you act the way you do. NO WAY.)

Anyway, 99% of the time things revert back because they didn't do what it REALLY takes to change. UNLESS they themselves do what YOU, HAZZA, MYSELF, and millions of others have done.....sought help. Sought recovery.

Now, if you told me that your little bundle of sunshine has up and went to AA, is seeing a counsleor to figure out HIM, not you or the next door neighbor, DOES NOT drink a DROP of anything, treats you as a human being, and EVERYDAY of his freaking life he is growing....reading, thereapy, AA, whatever. EVERYDAY! Then you will have me thinking ok, this is the real deal.

But Brenda said her man has a few glasses of wine per night, but thats ok. Your arguement is that it is a step. NO, it is not. Not when it realates to alcoholism. When you quit, thats a step. When you admit you have a serious problem and seek help WITHOUT being threatened, thats a step.

What you don't understand Hazza/Brenda is that I know more about alcoholism than you ever will. My family is full of them, and fortunately it never found me. Friends, assocites, girlfriends, etc. Yep, around every corner. One glass of wine may as well be a six pack.

What I speak is the truth, and when people go off on me its always for the same reason....the truth cuts deep, and it hurts. I went through pain so bad last year I was going to end my life. Mainly due to what people told me about me and my life...the truth. I would lash out because I didn't want to believe them. Much like you two have done here. Fine. And again, its your choice to listen. Like I said before, you sure as hell thought I was giving good advice before you decided to stay with them, and now that you have convinced yourselves that this is the better way to do things, I'm the asshole who thinks he knows it all. Well, I have been in your shoes...both from the other end and your end...just not being the alcoholic. SO, I know what I speak. And I know what I know. I will offer it even when its not the popular opinion.

And I will say again, that yes, it can work. The chances, oh, about 1 in a 1000. (Go to an AA meeting and ask them if you don't believe me) I have asked them. I have been to MANY of their meetings. There are SO many battles you can't count them.

And you want the real zinger? The reason we choose are mates is because it is familiar. Hazza knows this. She said I was "bang on target" when I posted that on another thread. It is the dysfunciton that causes this, and causes us to repeat our patterns.

THAT DYSFUNCTION IS WHAT CAUSES US TO BE ATTRACTED TO THEM, AND, WHAT CAUSES US TO EVENTUALLY RESENT AND EVEN HATE THEM.

END THE END, YOU EITHER TRY TO MAKE IT WORK, OR AS IN THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME, PART WAYS. IN THAT SMALL PERCENT OF THE TIME THAT YOU DECIDE TO TRY AND MAKE IT WORK, THE MAJORITY OF THOSE PART WAYS ANYWAY. WHY? BECAUSE THE ATTRACTION IN THE FREAKING FIRST PLACE WAS THE DYSFUNCITON. YOUR BEING A CARETAKER, AND HIS BEING THE DEPENDENT. TAKE THOSE AWAY, AND THE ATTRACTION, OTHER THAN MAYBE THE PHYSICAL, IS GONE! MY THERAPIST HAS HUNDREDS OF STORIES OF THIS EXACT SAME EVENT. THE CARETAKER RESENTS THE ALCOHOLIC. THE ALCOHOLIC DRYS UP, THE CARETAKER HAS NOTHING TO DO (WORRY, FRET, CLEANUP, ETC) AND RESENTS HIM GETTING CLEAN. YOU CAN PLACE ANY OTHER ADDICTION IN THERE.

opps, caps lock was on. sorry.

When it comes down to it, I wish everyone found the happiness they are looking for. But your stories are like hundreds of others, as mine was. And despite how much we would like to think that "just because yours didn't work doesn't mean mine can't", well, that just doesn't work that way. The stories are different but the plot and characters are the same. If your stories do work out, I highly suggest you call Guiness and sign a book deal. Just as you have told others in YOUR same shoes to stay away and heal, that is what I am saying to you both.

And, I am going to give you both a present my making this my last post to both of you. I wish you luck.

B-

March 24, 2000
9:42 pm
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Brenda
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I get the impression YOU think you know more about us than WE do. wow, who died and made you God broc....
ridiculous. I am not in denial, I am just growing in a way that is different from your own and for some reason that threatens you.
That is YOUR issue not mine, and I dont wish to make it mine.
Have you ever noticed, so much of your "advice" is offered unsolicited, I think that is a number one control/codep sickness.
Oh, I no longer refer to myself as codep, I just dont adhere to that philosophy. IT is too contrite, packaged and controlling. I also do not get unhappy if my partner heals, I get bloody happy! That is part of the reason I am now, and things did not happen over night, it was changing and improving for years, sure there have been some steps back, but there are far more steps forward, in my relationship and in myself.
You seem to be really stuck, in many ways and on many ideas..such inflexibility of ones opinions about life and people is very unhealthy.
I dont believe my husband is a full blown alchoholic either, he is in early stages. It is not my place to make him do therapy ( which most of it is a load of croc anyway ) nor is it my place to tell him what and how high he should jump. If his behavior and treatment of me and our family hurts me, well I have enough strength and wisdom now to know how to take care of our need, his will come last.
Be careful what you advise, if there is a way to grow within the relationship and there is hope, well LADIES, WORK IT OUT!

March 25, 2000
4:46 am
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hazza
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Broc,
"i know more about alcoholism than you ever will"

your words.

unbelievable arrongance on your part Broc. I hope you re-read these words of yours one day and realise exactly what you have said there. You really are starting to lose my respect here.

You can only ever speak the Truth of your own life - your own truth.

check out the sites guidelines sometime.

you say i don't have to read your posts, true. But please don't use our experiences as a way of "advising" other people how not to do it. You know exacly what you did by your references to myself and Brenda in other posts and you have not even apologised for that. Incredible.
I have no argument with you Broc, but you really are starting to act like God here. i understand you want to spread what you have learned to others becuase you want to help them, but you are being irresponsible to tell people things you claim are FACTS when im sorry but the are NOT FACTS they are and only ever will be you own beliefs and experience. as valid and useful to people as that is, please do not package it as FACT, it is only ever a common pattern.
But please don't ever post anything to me saying you know more about this that or the other than I do, you don't know me any better than I know you. Your beligerence reminds me of an evangelical preacher, it may be very rewarding to you to "spead your word" but please think to allow other people the option to make up their own minds, it is irresponsible of you to talk to people and tell them things as FACTS, until you are omnipotent, you will never know 100% all the answers so at least be honest enough and big enough to admit that.
Hazza

March 25, 2000
9:02 am
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hazza
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Oh and Broc,
for the record.
I did NOT say that to switch from drinking firday nights to just having a glass of wine at home was a step to RECOVERY!! i said it was a showing that the person is showing signs of becoming AWARE OF THE PROBLEM!

obviously as you say the first step to recovery can only ever be to stop drinking, and then the hard work that follows that. You have completel;y mis understood my posting in this respect.

What i meant was that people rarly wake up one day and think "oh i have a drink problem" their realisation comes in stages, they at first try to moderate or feel they can somehow "control" their drinking, this just shows that they are on the road to seeing they have a problem as opposed to thinking they are fine and changing nothing.
Eventually of course they realise that these "fixes" they have come up with ie- only drink at weekends, only have the one etc etc is not the answer and they only way forward is to quit. But this is a common thing that drinkers go through prior to recognising their problem.

Obviosly those who do this don't always see their problem and do anything about it, But all alcoholics who have been in true recovery would have started these "moderations" before they truely accepted their problem. I only said that it indicated that the person could be on the road to seeing their own problems, that first bout of self questioning eg
"do i have a problem? well i'll do X,Y and Z to prove i am fine"
they do XYand Z and find out they are not fine and slowly they start to become aware of their problem rather than denying it totally. If they weren't starting to question if they had a problem they would not change their habits at all would they?
A s i said it just indicates a beginning to maybe recognising the problem NOT A STAGE IN RECOVERY, for me to suggest that would be absurd!!!!

I have always applauded your definitions of co-dep. I have ALWAYS argued your ideas of the opnly way to heal from co-dep. I have not changed at all on that. It has nothing to do with me deciding to stay with someone and suddenly dissagreeing with you, i never agreeed with that part in the first place! I still support people leaving someone who is abusive and in denial of that, that is different. But when 2 people are no longer in denial and are working on things then i feel that is different. that is all.

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