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Just Can't Forgive or Forget
November 17, 2001
10:57 pm
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lover2000
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Let me see, how do I begin? My brother and I grew up with a dude I'll call Barney. Barney was always friends w/ my brother & never treated me right. He told people in the neighborhood I was gay & I am not, he criticized every girlfriend that I had & he did it publicly just so every1 would laugh, he would come to my back door at 3 AM when I was studying for a big exam, just to mess w/ me, the worse thing he did was put me on the spot when I made a mistake. He told me you are a 4.0 student and you did that. He told me that I was no genius, that I had not a drop of common sense, that I was so stupid that I'd never amount 2 anything. This all happened when we were younger. We're adults now & he's stayed in touch w/ my brother. That's where the problem is, he wants to it seems, be my friend now (ie he shakes my hand when he sees me, he tries to start conversations w/ me whenever I'm around, he came 2 my graduation party, he invites me to go to the basketball court, etc.). Needless 2 say, I shake his hand reluctantly, I do not respond 2 his conversation, I didn't acknowledge him at my party, and I never take him up on his invitations. I can't figure out though why I hate him so much, afterall we were just children when it happened. But the effects of what he has done to me have caused me severe emotional scars. I have even been to counseling for some of the things he and other children did to me in the past. Like we were at summer camp, when we were 7, he had every1 call me "the gay boy," and they all mocked me & shunned me, and I had no 1 2 play w/ that summer, that really hurt me. I have tried to forget it b/c we're adults now but the pain still hasn't gone away and the more intsense the pain becomes the more I start to hate him. He hasn't seen the nights that I cried wishing I were dead because of what he did. He hasn't seen my attempts at suicide, he doesn't know I was molested when I was a child & that just added more pain, and then he just kept doing what he did. Even when we were teenagers, he teased me & he teased my best friend & so now we're adults & he tries to be all buddy buddy, what in the hell makes him think I want to talk to him? I hate him!!!! And yet, I feel I'm wrong for hating him, I know he gets upset when I act so evil towards him but he knows what he did to me growing up. Can any1 help me to get to the bottom of this? I don't wanna keep hating him but I don't think we can be friends either. And why can't we? Weren't we children when this stuff happened? So why does it keep hurting? I don't know please help if you can.

November 18, 2001
8:30 am
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philter
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Hi lover 2000,
well it keeps hurting because you allow it to keep hurting.The thing about getting older is that you can look back on all the shit in your life and say,thank kcuf thats over.The other best thing is you see others mature and ripen.Next time he comes up to shake your hand,grab his hand ,squeeze firmly,look him in the eye(into his pupils) and think to yourself how much stronger you are than him,your so much stronger because of all the shit he put on you.While your thinking this keep looking in his eyes and say thanks mate,(,watch his reaction),THEN SAY
wonna come to a gay bar with me.Well ignore the last bit.say what are ya doin,how about goin for a beer somewhere,for example.say something positive,be overpowering,If his offering friendship he may have finally grown up.Don't dwell on past issues,try and generate new issues to occupy your mind.Train yourself to look at all positive aspects rather than the negative ,sure shit happened in your younger years and there will be a hell of a lot of shit happening in the future.The more you cloud your mind with these issues the harder it will become.

November 18, 2001
8:30 am
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philter
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Hi lover 2000,
well it keeps hurting because you allow it to keep hurting.The thing about getting older is that you can look back on all the shit in your life and say,thank kcuf thats over.The other best thing is you see others mature and ripen.Next time he comes up to shake your hand,grab his hand ,squeeze firmly,look him in the eye(into his pupils) and think to yourself how much stronger you are than him,your so much stronger because of all the shit he put on you.While your thinking this keep looking in his eyes and say thanks mate,(,watch his reaction),THEN SAY
wonna come to a gay bar with me.Well ignore the last bit.say what are ya doin,how about goin for a beer somewhere,for example.say something positive,be overpowering,If his offering friendship he may have finally grown up.Don't dwell on past issues,try and generate new issues to occupy your mind.Train yourself to look at all positive aspects rather than the negative ,sure shit happened in your younger years and there will be a hell of a lot of shit happening in the future.The more you cloud your mind with these issues the harder it will become.

November 18, 2001
8:31 am
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philter
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BLOODY DOUBLE CLICK

November 18, 2001
1:59 pm
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lover2000
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Thanx all for replying. Philter, I try to be positive around him, but believe me it's hard. I'm 21, it's not so long ago that we were teenagers & he was still putting me through that crap. I think the hardest thing for me to forgive, is the thing about common sense. His talking to me just like I had accomplished nothing because of a mistake I made. Let me tell u, when I was growing up, my grades were atrocious & after much counseling, and much studying (almost 4 to 6 hours a night!) I finally became that 4.0 student I strove to be. After that I felt like true, I may not be all I should be, but definitely, I have come so far from where I started from and that was to be commended. He weakened my spirits by doing that & he was just a jerk to me all my life. Simply stated I don't trust him & I hate his freakin' guts, he's gotta have some kind of alterior motive for wanting my friendship & he doesn't get that satisfaction. Hell no! Now, i don't mean to sound mean philter especially to you because you were trying to help, and I appreciate that more than u could ever know. My thing is just that you don't know how conniving this man is, he is a scandalous little jerk. When they asked me to give him a ride, I made it clear that I didn't even want him in my car. Of course, I gave him the ride b/c my little sister begged me to & I can't deny her, I love her (I spoil that lil' brat :o) ) But anyway, I just have strong hatred & I wanna stop hating him yet don't know how. Blondie, thanks 4 your help too, I wanna do that to him more than u could ever imagine. But, I'm afraid it wouldn't work. He knows what he did & he knows why I don't like him. Also, if I did do that he'd probably laugh & I won't give him that satisfaction. I saw a football game on tv the other day & when I realized it was his team playing & I saw his face on that channel, I quickly turned it. I support nothing he does, nothing! Thanx you all for letting me vent, it really does help. And thanx for your replies & suggestions they help me more than u could ever know.

November 18, 2001
5:39 pm
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SuzyQ
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Hey Lover,
This is totally hitting home for me. When I was growing up I was teased and picked on a lot (from 3rd grade through H.S.). I was usually the smallest kid in the class and my grades were poor. I refuse to go to any of my H.S. reunions and really don't maintain contact with people from H.S. I've been out of H.S. for over 15yrs, but I still carry some of that resentment from time to time. You may have to limit your interaction with this Barney. He probably has no idea that he hurt you so bad because children can be cruel. However, your feelings are real and his words hurt you deeply. Several years ago, I would go to a local hangout and run into people from H.S. Many of the popular girls and boys don't look so "popular" now. I know that's ignorant of me to say, but I work hard to take care of myself and hope they know now that they didn't break me. Plus, I am a professional and now they know I wasn't stupid.
Gosh I was so insecure in H.S. and that's really coming out now-YIKES!
Where is your brother with all of this? Does he defend you?
My brother was a gifted child (I know now that actually I was too) which made this difficult. He was younger, so he really wasn't helpful at that point of our lives. Kids would say horrible things about me being stupid and then him being smart.
I hope to be a parent some day and plan to instill strong values of tolerance to my children. I presently work with students who are victims and instigators of these interactions. Sorry for talking too much about myself. It does feel good to get this stuff out. This post really struck a nerve with me. If you don't trust Barney and he makes you feel bad, don't even talk to him at all. Good Luck!

November 18, 2001
7:00 pm
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lover2000
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Thanx Suzy,

By the way, I am terribly sorry 4 your pain. I do know how it feels, and believe you me, it is good 2 talk about it. My brother was younger than me, and when we were young he used to call me names & harass me too. But as we got older, he would get upset & ready to fight when the other children did this. I had one cousin "K" & whenever Barney did this he was outraged. One day, he was calling me names among them a faggot & saying it 2 the neighborhood kids. Next thing I knew (b/c I was in the house) "K" came storming in & told me what Barney said & told me to hit him in his face & he'd follow up with a punch & we'd beat him to a pulp 2gether. We went to do it, but my aunt stopped us & wouldn't let us (unfortunately). He is bad news, and I wish I didn't have to see him but he is always around b/c he's my brother's friend. My brother & I are close & live 2gether in the same townhouse. I'm trying not 2 hate him, really I am but I just can't do it, I am filled w/ anger & simply stated I ain't got no love 4 him. Thanx Suzy, and u remember that it is us who holds the power, b/c our tormentors have nothing but torment 2 look forward 2 but us, we have prosperity 2 look 2. Oh yeah, I too am successful, I was a kindergarten teacher's aide for 2 1/2 years & in 1 year, I will be a certified teacher & have my own class. Look at what accomplishments we've made, let's see what those idiots have to say now!

November 18, 2001
8:54 pm
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SuzyQ
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Lover2000,
I wanted you to know that I'm very sorry for what you'be gone through too and hope I conveyed that in the last thread. I do think that this Barney dude may have been a victim of poor upbringing. Have you talked with your brother about this? You have said they are good friends. This has 2B difficult. What was up with your bro. back then? He probably felt the need to fit in. Oh well, sib rivalry is normal. At least your bro. has come to his senses now and u 2 can be friends. A I'm glad other things are going well 2.
I too am in the education field. I am a therapist for H.S. kids who have emotional concerns. I've also worked in health care. Yes, and I have a master's degree and I remember I was so stupid everyone thought I would fail 6th grade. YIKES-Here I go again! Okay, I'll shut up already! Thank you lover2000 for giving me permission to discuss my stuff too 🙂

November 18, 2001
11:27 pm
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lover2000
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Hey Suzy,

No problem, we're buddies here & that's what buddies r 4 2 help eachother thru. You actually encourage me when u discuss your problems b/c you let me know I'm not alone. As 4 my brother, yeah he just wanted 2 fit in. He's always been the cool kid, popular w/ the crowd, and always makes tons of friends everywhere he goes. Me on the other hand, I was always the smart one (well verbally intelligent for a while) but when it came out and I was a 4.0 student it was no shock. But, unlike him, I'm not the popular one, anytime I go somewhere, I always return with 1 or 2 new friends, which isn't bad, but I'm not like he is. With Barney, I don't believe he won't go away. One weekend, I stayed at the house b/c my brother & his girlfriend took a roadtrip & I was gonna go but Barney was there & I refused. My brother & others keep telling me get over it. I always reply "if only it was that easy." They just don't know what I've been through with this jerk. He's now trying 2 present himself like he's this wonderful person, when all my life, he made me feel like sh**. I consider that a form of abuse & am severely impaired. I think my worst memory of him is when we were young & he used to always put me on the spot (ie my clothes, my "ugly" girlfriends as he termed them, you have no common sense, you're so stupid, the best part of u ran down your mama's a**, etc.) One night I tried 2 kill myself & it was b/c of mean stuff he did, that I think is my biggest grievance against him. I'm sorry, I'm not gonna keep bothering y'all w/ my troubles, I'm just at a low point in my life. I've been lower but this point is still kind of low. I'm trying 2 raise myself back up. Thanx 4 listening.

November 19, 2001
11:09 am
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Ladeska
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Lover2000...You know, I really don't think you can get over it until you confront him and be real and honest with him, your brother, your sister and yourself. What do you really have to lose here? I mean really? You can go on like this....or you can stand up and say - Hey, this is the way it was and this is the way it is. I'm tired of playing the scene here, not into it, I'm done being fake about it and it's time we all just looked at how things really were. It's not okay with me, not sure why the hell it was OKAY with you to be such a bully and for anyone else to go along with it, but it's sure as hell not okay with me now. Just not into stuffing it and playing like - it was a funny little game.

What I want you to do, if you feel like it - is write a letter here of what you'd say to him.....

It's time to pop the pimple, Dude. This won't go away, it won't get better until you look these people right in the eye, say how you feel, speak your boundaries and go on with your life....regardless of what they think about it. It's time, high time - you were okay with "how you feel and think about things". So start now.....begin writing here what you would say to him...

And this thing about forgiveness.... Isn't about being weak and opening your heart back up to hurt. With people like this it's a thing of - snipping the string and saying - No More. I wish you well, but you're not poisoning my life anymore. I forgive you - in the sense of - I release you from me and don't wish to engage with anything that is unhealthy for you or for me and I give myself permission now - to have good healthy things grow - where you used to be in my life. And hopefully in time.....the feeling of forgiveness will come because I have done the action.

Cancerous people - feed off of others because they are so deficient on the inside themselves. If the truth be known about him - he's the one with the really low self esteem. That's usually true with bullies. They are narcissistic little punks that never grow up from the state of - the world revolves around me, doesn't it?

So, this won't stop until you decide that - enough is enough. The hatred is building up because alot of damage was done to you and yet you still keep putting yourself in harm's way by being around him and not speaking your peace so that everyone knows what's up.

And it's none of their business how or why your feelings or mind works the way it does. It's "your" life, your hurts and your boundaries. End of story. You can love people, but if they don't understand when it comes to you protecting yourself against hurts like this and hurtful people - then hey - they get a bit of distance their way, as well...until they do - figure it out and respect your wishes regardless of whether they understand or not.

And you're not being a whiner here at all - by voicing all this. These are very nasty wounds for anyone and most of all - the hypocrisy of what he's doing now - the fist within the velvet glove bullshit - is what really puts the cherry right on top, doesn't it? Well enough of his poison. Time to end it, once and for all. Start writing....

November 19, 2001
8:29 pm
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lover2000
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Hey Ladeska,

Thanks 4 replying . . . (smile). Here is what I'd say to him. You stupid son-of-a-bitch, how dare you treat me like shit all my life & then just think you're gonna bounce in and be my best friend. No, it don't work like that. You have caused me indescribable grief, hurt my self esteem, and now you think u can be my best friend? Hellllllllllll Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You didn't see the nights I tried 2 kill myself & u laughed b/c it was building up your ego & making u popular, you haven't seen me when I had 2 live for so many years w/ that bad reputation that u gave me. And another thing, you had your nerve 2 show up at my graduation party. What was that 4? To help me celebrate that I was booksmart with no common sense, you stupid son of a bitch, or maybe u just wanted to get free food u freeloading piece of shit! Whatever your reason, I wish u didn't come. My brother invited u and you asked why you were never sent an invitation. Did it occur to u that maybe, just maybe I didn't want u there? Well, I'm saying all this to say, get the hell outta my life. I don't want u around me. You treated me like shit once for 14 some years & now you say you're my friend? Well, what is YOUR definition of friend? Stay the hell away from me, I hate you with a passion. I don't wanna hang out w/ u, I don't wanna talk 2 u & from this point on, I have nothing 2 say 2 u. My brother may think you're cool but guess what. I sure as hell don't.

November 19, 2001
10:15 pm
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Ladeska
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....keep it going...you're not done here.....and what would you say to your brother or anyone else you could think of that might "have a say" here on his behalf....

And what would you say if he tried to defend himself?

November 20, 2001
3:04 pm
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lover2000
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Hey Ladeska,

Here it goes . . . (smile)

You all may believe what you want about him b/c he is a liar & when you've been doing something that long, u become good @ it. But as for me, I refuse to buy into his bullshit anymore. I don't believe he's sorry & I don't believe he has changed. People don't change in fact over time, bullies get worse, he's a liar & worse a bully. I hate people like that, so if you consider him your friend let him be just that, YOUR friend & do not involve me in it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love you all but he is not someone I want around. So, I'd be glad 2 hang out w/ you all, but if he goes I will not, bottom line!

If he tries 2 defend himself . . .

Listen here, don't try to justify what u did. You can rationalize it all u want but that doesn't change the fact & the fact is u caused so much trauma in my life. Now, how dare u think u r gonna come & try 2 justify what u did. It is simply inexcusable. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have nothing more 2 say 2 u.

And Ladeska, I also plan 2 enroll myself in assertiveness training classes. Are there any websites u can think of that could help? Thanx

November 20, 2001
3:27 pm
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Ladeska
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No, not really, don't know of any websites per say. Actually, I think you're doing really well doing what you're doing. Assertiveness training, huh? How so? Tell me, tell me.

Boundaries are things that we should learn early, but....sometimes we learn them later and that's okay. Thing is - once we state them, we just have to enforce them and that means not engaging with mindless chatter with anyone regarding it. The door is closed and that's that. Then off you go to the positive things going on in your life, right?

We spend so much time - holding poisonous stuff in and then if we dare to let it out, have a boundary or try and explain it to anyone - we have a cow for doing it and they have a cow because we did it! Um, no. Doesn't have to be that way and control all the buttons on that one.

If it hurts you, then you don't allow it in your life anymore. Plain and simple. If anyone doesn't understand or like it - oh darn.

Just think of all the energy that has been used trying to keep Pandora's lid shut on all this anger and hurt.... all that energy could have been used to propel you in some other direction.... Well, it's time for that, long over due. No more vampires sucking energy from you, right? (smile)

Time for you to be very present in the moment of your life as it "is" right now and tune out, get rid of all the poisonous, negative stuff that will cloud your vision. Being assertive - is about being pro-active you. Not being selfish, but being protective, responsible for your wellbeing. Alot of people may think that means being really nasty and ultimately a bully, too....but it doesn't have to mean that at all.

There is a way of saying very little and making a rather hard impact. It's called having "presence". It comes from inside you....and people feel it, it translates very well just by you looking into their eyes. You'll get there.....I think you really want to get there. Some of the most powerful people I have ever met - were actually very quiet people, humble, too. But, when it came time for them to focus their energy, to speak and really "say something" - what eminated from them was nothing but - power.. If this is the path you want to take, then it is necessary that you weed your garden as you are doing now and "follow through" with it. There is so much more to life than weeding.....and you need to get onto that path as soon as possible. Anger can fuel you up and out of this and then you need to be done with it.

November 20, 2001
3:45 pm
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Ladeska
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November 20, 2001
8:05 pm
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lover2000
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Thanx Ladeska,

That site made much sense 2 me. And it never occured to me that the things took place in that way. Like, Barney always did seem jealous & every 1 must have sided w/ him to keep him off their case. But 1 thing, ain't no way in hell no1 is gonna hurt me no more I ain't gonna let it happen. It is my fault for allowing it & as long as I take it I deserve it. So, I will not take it another day.

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