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in the spirit of being honest with myself
April 5, 2007
11:58 am
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risingfromtheashes
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ok...so I have been angry and feeling very empowered.

when seeing my ex around work, I keep myself cold and uncaring.

this morning I had to go into work late.

the phone rang, caller ID said it was work.

I answered it...it was my ex, BAWLING his eyes out. I asked him what was wrong...he said I knew what was wrong.

I told him I didn't...(suspecting he got fired, but trying to not reveal I knew bosses plans).

He kept talking, but I could NOT make out what he was saying.

Finally he said something about how I knew what was wrong, cuz in my note to him, I told him he made his choice, made his bed, now he has to lie in it.

He said he wanted to talk to me when I got to work.

So, when I got there, I expected him waiting in the parking lot...but he wasn't...so maybe he is not fired?

Anyway, it left me feeling VERY vulneralble right now.

I don't believe he's playing me.

I never ever expected him to call me crying about anything...I expected him to be a cold uncaring bastard and walk away...to quit this job and go back out on the road driving truck.

He's defying my expectations...again.

But, the confusion whirling around in my head and heart.

I want US to work. I love him.

But then the hurt and anger of the recent events.

And if I don't have to look him in the eye, I can't go about my life being angry at him, blaming him...and holding my ground.

But give me a guy who is showing true remorse and apologizing...I crumble.

I haven't seen him since I came in...which is a good thing maybe.

But I know that I will.

And I know that part of me is trying to find reasons to allow this to work out.

And other parts of me are screaming that it just can't.

I don't know how lolli does it day after day....and I have such appreciation and admiration for her for standing her ground...and completely understand why she keeps getting involved over and over again.

Cuz it's hard NOT to.

I still haven't heard his side of anything....so who knows what this is all about...but the crying, heaving, sad person on the other end of the line this morning tore my heart out...and that just leaves me weak and vulnerable.

I would love nothing else but to make this work...and that's the part of me that is doing all the mental "talk" right now.

and it scares me.

I just want life to be easy, just want to be happy, just want to not have to think so hard about the "right move"...I hate being "defective".

April 5, 2007
2:07 pm
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risingfromtheashes
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I just received a boquet of pink roses with baby's breath.

the card reads:
from:a piece of crap that crawled out of the sewer, looking for a better life.

to: the only flower I saw when I looked up, that tried her best to help my wish come true.

ps...despite what I have done, I'll always love you.

I have NEVER gotten roses from ANYONE I dated...and this is the first real gift he did himself. and the card is handwritten too.

I don't think his card was trying to make me feel bad...I believe this is his way of apologizing sincerely.

I just want to cry.

April 5, 2007
2:20 pm
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Rising,

Stay strong. He's breaking you down little by little...

I don't think he's "playing you" in a mean way, but I do think that he knows how to get to you.

I think you should talk to him and see what he has to say, but DO NOT let the roses, the tears and his fear cloud the real issues! Nothing has changed... except that he got caught and he is upset about that.

Talk to him. Ask him ALL of the tough questions and do not let him use smoke and mirrors again to make you forget what the REAL issues are!

He CHEATED. He LIED. Probably more than once. He only got caught once... but think back to the telephone call on his cell phone with a girl's name back at Christmas time (he said it was a guy that he called to wish a Merry Christmas???? Who does that??) Anyway... I think that was most likely another girl he's had on the side. This deception could be a pattern with him. Don't be naive. Keep your eyes wide open!!!!

No matter how hard he cries... don't stop asking questions until you get the answers that you feel deep down in your gut are the TRUTH!!

If you need to talk to this other woman yourself, then do it!!! If he tells you the truth about her, then you should have NO FEAR that she will tell you exactly what he does, right? You are at the point right now with him where you need PROOF until he shows you that he is trustworthy. Make him prove it!!!!

Be careful, Rising. I know how badly you want this relationship to work out... just stay on your toes.

TC

April 5, 2007
2:31 pm
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soprano2
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Sounds like a teenager who is trying to get off punishment. He knows exactly what to say to you to make you back down.

Yes, it is tough, but you have started to get through the tough part. Can you still imagine your life with him? I think that you deserve much better than what he can give.

If you allow him to get out of this and take him back, you are reinforcing his behavior. You are basically telling him that he can do whatever he wants with only two days or so of consequence. Is that what you really want? It's one girl now, but imagine when he does it again (and if you take him back, he will,)?

Aside from which, if he continues down this path, think about what risks he is putting you in....there's a lot of stuff that you can get--more than just a breaking heart. And you deserve way better than that.

I am not trying to be mean, I am just making sure you see the whole picture.

Sometimes relationships take more than love. Trust, respect, honesty, faithfulness--these things are needed outside of love, but they are at the inner core of love.

((((Rising))))

April 5, 2007
2:38 pm
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feelingfree
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Rising~

You have given me great advice on 2b's thread.. in fact, I have your words printed and hung on my computer so I can read them every day.

Here's why I KNOW YOU SHOULD STAND YOUR GROUND:

Because when I read what he wrote on that card, I said "awwww" outloud.

That is because I am a raging Co-D, the biggest pushover on the planet, fall for every manipulation tactic ever designed by a man, and why I've gotten so hurt so many times.

Only thing I can say is this. You're going to do what you're going to do.. but PROTECT YOURSELF and if you decide to give this another try, take it slow and be careful!

April 5, 2007
3:00 pm
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risingfromtheashes
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In my heart and mind, I KNOW this is a sincere apology and not his way of buying me back.

26 doesn't buy anyone. He just sucks it up, plays the victim and moves on.

I don't see that this time.

But that doesn't mean I will go running back to him.

It just means that instead of being angry at him and being able to walk away without looking back, I have alot of thinking to do.

Yeah, he got caught...my best friend seems to think this may be the first time anyone has made him face up to his mistakes...called him on it.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

I'm not sure what I want or going to do...so I won't decide right now.

April 5, 2007
3:26 pm
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reachingout
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Rising go baack to other side and read

April 5, 2007
4:15 pm
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Oh boy, Rising...

I agree with Reachingout and think that you should read back on ALL of your threads about 26. It's ALWAYS different "This Time"...

I don't think he's trying to buy you back. Not at all! I think he's desperately trying to win you back. You don't have a lot of thinking to do... HE has a lot of PROVING HIMSELF to do. Please hear me... Make him prove it, ok? Make sure that you don't jump back in too quickly this time. You have your daughter to think about too. Remember that. Get the TRUTH from him and then MAKE SURE that it is the truth! Don't take his word for ANYTHING right now. He does not deserve your trust YET. Please make him earn it!!!!!!

I hear a lot of rationalization starting to happen here... just please be careful.

April 5, 2007
4:34 pm
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risingfromtheashes
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yes, if anything is going to happen, he has to earn it.

and knowing that I allowed my ex back into my life, without earning it...

that I rolled over and blindly trusted him, like the therapist told me I had to...

I won't make the mistake again.

I know the truth...I want to hear it from his mouth.

As far as jumping into anything or taking him back or trusting him...it would be a long road back to that point.

I have yet to figure out if I even want to go down it.

Interesting thing happened just a minute ago.

Seems like work is divided into two camps.

one that wants to lynch him and one that is cutting him some slack.

One of our drivers just came up behind me and said "get your flowers?"....I just kind of rolled my eyes....said yeah, I did...not sure what I will do about it tho.

See, all day, everyone is asking about the flowers.

So, he says that he was riding with him all day today...that the hardest thing was to watch him cry...and went on to give me a speech about loving someone...and working things out...seems the guys wife died when she was 33, and he knows the value of life is short.

Said that 26 is just a kid and he made a mistake and seems genuinely sorry for it.

another coworker overhears this and says once a cheater always a cheater....and goes on to her lynching idea.

anyway...doesn't look like he's going to be fired...but warned to keep personal life out of here...and the driver he rode with warned him to just come to work and leave the personal stuff at home.

anyway...I know I sound like I am rationalizing here...I hear it in my words too.

Like I said...part of me knows the "right" thing to do is not look back. Then my heart looks back anyway.

It's going to be a struggle to do the right thing.

But go blindly into things? I won't do it. That therapist can take her advice and shove it...if he wants to be trusted, he's got to earn it.

And the last thing I am going to do is jump back into things where we left off.

and I am not the only one that he has to prove anything to....there's alot of people he let down.

April 5, 2007
5:46 pm
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nappy
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I don't know what all is going on in this thread but what I'm reading sound like this (ex) is working at the same place that you are.
And that everyone knows what is going on in your personal life.
And everyone knows that he has hurted you.
And something bad happen because I see that everyone is stating here to not take him back.

And this part I didn't understand when you said that "if anything is going to happen, he has to earn it."

If he hurted you, what do he have to earn? Whatever that he done to you, and it has taken you a while to get over, why go backward in life with someone that you already know about?
Why put yourself though that. My thing is "shame on you the first time, but shame on me the second time"
It your choice and this is your life.
Nappy!

April 5, 2007
6:23 pm
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lollipop3
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Rising.....

Try to remember what you said....."no, third chances".

He has had two and he has blown it both times. And I have to be honest, when this happened, I thought the same thing TC did....the girl at Christmas time was exactly that....a girl.

As Dr.Phil says...the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior, please don't forget that.

And you are right, it is hard, especially when they call crying and SEEM so sincere. And they probably are ....AT THAT MOMENT.

Don't forget, Snow cried too. Several times over several weeks. It broke my heart. It SEEMED as though he had learned so much being apart from me. Everything he said SEEMED to exhibit a new found insight and self-awareness. He promised to go to therapy. And he DID go to therapy. HE made the appointments! HE paid for the appointments! He willing participated.

It SEEMED as though I was getting everything I ever wanted and Snow and I were finally going to have the love and relationship that I had longed for.

And then......reality. And you know what that reality was.

It was all lies. It was all manipulation. And he kept right on doing whatever he wanted to do, regardless of my feelings.

He may have been sincere when he said the things he said....but it doesn't matter what his intentions were. What matters is the reality and the reality is that nothing changed.

And I'm sorry to say but nothing has changed with 26 either. I can guarentee it.

Try to stay strong my friend. This is just another round of hurt waiting to happen.

((((Rising))))

April 5, 2007
6:23 pm
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rising, hi there...I had missed out on a chunk of what happened. But I get the gist.

My advice would be NO CONTACT.

Look, my ex tried the same thing when he was in a bind, I got the tears and the whole spiel "You are the only one that can help". "I do nothing but think about you". "Can you come with me to find a therapist?"

I got it all and I fell for it...and soon as I did I got a slap in the face...and it hurt more than anything else he ever did.

Please don't fall for this. If he was genuine he wouldn't have cheated. I can't help but believe that the more time you spend trying to help this guy out, the more time you are wasting on the one you are supposed to be with. And there IS someone nice and lovely and respectful that you are supposed to be with rising. There really is. Good, happy, healthy relationships Don't start out like this.

Rev.

April 5, 2007
6:36 pm
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lollipop3
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Revelation,

"I got it all and I fell for it...and soon as I did I got a slap in the face...and it hurt more than anything else he ever did."

Girl, I can relate to this SO much.

I had broken up with Snow last June and although I was sad about it, I handled it just fine. In fact, had a pretty good summer.

When he came back in October...he cried, he seemed so sad and lost, he said all the right things, promised changed and agreed to go to therapy...which he did.

When I found out a little more then a month ago what the truth was and that he had been lying and manipulating and when called on it, immediately reacted with disrespect, mental and verbal abuse....I was crushed. I was absolutley crushed. And like you....more than I ever had been.

Of all the things that have happened between us and all the things he has done over the past 5 years.....this time hurt more than all of them combined.

April 5, 2007
7:15 pm
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Oh lolli sweety, thats just sickening. I am so sorry this happened to you. There is nothing worse than it. Its the most excruciating pain I have ever gone through.

But one thing is for sure, for you and I both...we will NEVER let that happen to us again.

We are stronger and better for it.

It is a lesson I wish I had never had to learn, but nevertheless, had I not learned it, I would not be where I am today.

Hugs to you and rising ((((())))))

Rev.

April 5, 2007
7:49 pm
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I am sure 26 is very sorry for what he did. But roses as sweet as they are, as sweet as this fuss, but ultimately roses are for celebrating, celebrating love, not for cheating on you, not for lying to you. Love is not drama.

April 6, 2007
1:03 am
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turnabout
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I have a problem with the card from the get-go. He is NOT a sewer rat. He doesn't deserve sympathy for BEING a sewer rat because he ISN'T one. Don't tell me he isn't using that line to win sympathy. I'm sure he really thinks of himself that way, too, (which is a BIG part of his problem), but there's no excuse for him thinking of himself that way. Just saying things that way PROVES to me that he's wanting your sympathy. Someone willing to choke it up, be a man, admit a mistake, and make a real change... a REAL apology ... he might buy you flowers and a card, but he won't apologize by putting ANYONE down, not even himself. By classifying himself that way, it's almost like saying he couldn't help himself. He screwed up and he knows it, but what do you expect from a sewer rat?

I know it tugs at your heart strings. I've done it, too ... thought "Awww, he can't see through his bad opinion of himself. If only he could. If only I could show him..." I know that his feelings of regret are probably very real and run very deep. But this isn't what I'd classify as a real apology, because real apologies are pure gifts, meaning a mistake is admitted, responsibility for it is accepted, and all of it is left at the wronged person's doorstep, no strings. No guilt is laid out for them to deal with b/c it's not their problem. No personal insecurities are laid out there b/c THAT's not their problem. A real apology is concerned only with the wronged person's feelings and doesn't burden them with the wrong-doer's issues. All he gave you was sentiment and self-pity.

I'm sorry, rising. You see more potential in him than he sees in himself. It's not that I'm putting him down (why should I when he's so quick to do it to himself?), but that apology does not cut the mustard. And what I'm really saying is that he's better than that. He's capable of more than that. He is not a sewer rat, and he is not excused to call himself that no matter what he's done. And you do him no favors if you sympathize with this self-debasement. It's a way of denying his responsibility, even if it isn't intended that way.

April 6, 2007
2:20 am
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HI rising,

I know these posts may be tough to read right now. But I think they are a pretty accurrate assessment of the situation (Especially turnabout's last one - 26 IS putting himself down and excusing his behavior all at the same time) and you said it yourself - he plays the victim. He is doing it again by sending you the card that says, "feel sorry for me, I'm pathetic, I'm a loser, I screw up everything, I am the victim here". And to the people defending him at work, saying he's just a kid and he made a mistake? Um, I think at 26, we all knew right from wrong. 26 years old is not a "kid". He's old enough to know right from wrong.

On an aside, how do you feel about everyone at work knowing your business? Is this something you are comfortable with or do you think it will become a problem later on? I ask because, if you do decide to give him another chance, it seems like you will be putting your relationship through a whole other wringer - now that it's public, it might be hard to make it private again. Anyway, I'm just curious.

I think you know the right thing to do, and that's to let him do all the work. If he really wants you back, he will do the work. You don't have to give an inch, and you shouldn't. And you shouldn't feel like you have to "mother" him through this - this IS his mess, and he needs to clean it up. IF he really can step up to the plate and do that, fine, forgive him if that's what your heart says. But he has to do it first. And I'm not sure he is willing or able to put aside his victim role and accept responsibility. It doesn't sound like it.

I hope you can get through these next few days and weeks relatively intact,

zax

April 6, 2007
7:00 am
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taj64
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hmmmmm I am wondering as well. Remember shopping for the ring a few weeks ago? Please pay attention to signs. You really good at analyzing relationships. Also a few months back, the lack of sex drive. I think you may want to think about this. Maybe it was too much for him to go between two. I don't trust this guy worth a lick. He might be a good man, but he is now just like a lot of them. I'd say yes forgive and go through this process all over again learning trust but isn't this the third man you have had to rebuild trust with? All these guy play on your sensitive side when really this is what they are, you can do nothing about. I'd also suspect this man will do it to you again. Six months of this relationship and already it is blown to pieces a few times. Sure, through thick and thin, up and down but staying steady with someone is better and this has never been easy or steady. You have claimed it is, but it never really was. I also believe what South said, I have seen you convince yourself that he is young and not grown up yet, and younger than you but I have to say 26 is grown and 26 is grownup. My son is 18 and he is mature for his age and he would not tihnk of behaving this way. Guys can be mature at a young age and some dont ever grow up.

All in all, I think you can do better and you deserve better. Get your ring and roses because the guy is not sucking up.

April 6, 2007
8:45 am
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risingfromtheashes
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we sat and I listened to him talk last night...for two hours.

He admitted to everything...he even told me that "denise" really was a woman and not dennis...but that nothing happened. He said he had nothing to lose by coming clean.

About the card and calling himself a sewer rat...he said that because of what he done, and how he hurt me, he doesn't feel like a man and feels "this big" because of what he did.

He said that he sent the roses because he was so close to me every day, but couldn't find a way to get close enough to apologize without breaking down and making a scene...so figured he had nothing to lose. The roses were simply to apologize...nothing more.

He told me that in the days we were apart, he tried to run away...but couldn't and realized it was time for him to be a man and face the music....lie in the bed he made.

I can't help but give him kudos for that....this is a person I felt would give his two weeks notice and disappear into the sunset never to be seen again, so he can run from all this.

Instead, he stayed.

He said he is tired of being a nobody and wanted to be a somebody and that he felt he was finally getting somewhere, and then old habits came back. He said he is sorry he went down this path, made this choice and understands the consequences.

He said that initially, he turned off his feelings and felt like he didn't care...but as the days wore on, the bad feelings took over and he was missing daughter and I...and it felt like someone tore his heart out and there was just a hole left....and that he never felt that way before.

He said it hurt when we broke up before, but this pain was tenfold more.

He told me he realizes that if I allowed him back into my life, he'd have to start over from square one and EARN us back.

The whole time we talked, I didn't say much, except asking questions I needed clarified. And I felt he gave honest answers.

I didn't tell him he had to earn anything...he said it.

He also said that he never wants to make a mistake like this again, cuz the pain is too unbearable and knowing he hurt me like this makes him feel totally worthless. And he never wants to hurt us again.

I don't know where this is going.

But I don know one thing.

I went thru this with my ex.

And when he talked with me about it, the convo was full of manipulation, table turning, crazy making and game playing. I knew he had no intentions of being honest...but I convinced myself he meant it and took him back.

26 didn't feel the same.

I sensed no game playing, no manipulation. I sensed honesty and sincerity.

The tears weren't the same. My gut says they weren't.

26 made a comment about how I am the best thing that ever came into his life and how much he looks up to me and how high he views me. I told him that I didn't like being put on a pedestal, that I am only human, just like everyone else...and I just make better choices than some people....work harder, play smarter.

Anyway, that's been part of the problem...and maybe it will continue to be?

He also admitted that he has been hurt so many times that letting someone in his heart is scary...and he lets his guard down a little, then gets scared...puts walls up....and in the past, the ones he loved, used that against him...but that this time, I haven't. But it scares him just the same. And this makes alot of sense as well.

As I said, I don't know what I am going to do. Take it one day at a time.

Altho, I told him that no matter what happens, it has to stop being brought into work...that if we work things out, we will still drive in separately, leave separately and keep all the drama out of the workplace. I am a little concerned about that, but realize that my business is my business and it just has to stay out of work.

Anyway, sorry for rambling...the good news in all this is that I am focused and stable....and able to get my work done and not lose myself in all this drama.

What I have yet to figure out...and what will ultimately help me decide what to do....

is this guy someone who is capable of making mistakes, learning from them and changing for the better.

or is this a guy who is bound to keep fucking up, cuz he is incapable of seeing the error or the desire to fix it for the right reasons.

As I said, I went down this path with my ex...(just him, there were no trust issues with my ex-ex)....and I can see a huge difference in how this is all going down....what they are saying, how they are saying it.

It will be a risk to take him back. And only time will tell if I chose to take it.

April 6, 2007
6:30 pm
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revelation
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Rising, keeping my fingers crossed for you hun.

You are a good person and you deserve happiness and love.

xx,
Rev.

April 7, 2007
2:41 pm
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Well it is good that he is sorry. He should be.

I am sorry to say this, because I am a hopeless romantic myself. But like someone already said, the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. It seems like they always say the right things and things can be wonderful for awhile..I think they call this the honeymoon phase, when making up. Then after time, it all goes back to the same.

I think you should reread your posts your journals etc and remember all of the truths. Sometimes its easier to think with our hearts. When I left my ex, it completely crumbled me. It wasn't that I didn't love him.Parts of me always will. But we broke up and heard all the promises a zillion times, and I had to be done with it. Sometimes, love isn't enough.

It seems like he already has a foot in the door and he knows it...

Talking about earning your trust etc.

I hope you can find the time to focus on you and what you deserve and not rush back to the same thing.

hopeful

April 9, 2007
10:31 pm
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(((rising)))
I only wish the best for you. I am a softee and tend to believe lies when they come with tears. I hope he is sincere and has learned a lesson. You have no way of knowing this. Only time will tell. Only you can decide if you are willing to take that chance again. It's a BIG RISK. A big chance for heartbreak- AGAIN.

One thing that surprises me is just how much he said. He did an awful lot of talking- unlike my b/f who gets "stuck -on -stupid" when it comes time to talk. If he really said all those things then it lets you know that he DOES know the difference between wrong and right and the pain it causes. Then doesn't it make you mad that HE would HURT you like that in the first place. I am not a good advice giver in your case-as I am not able to follow my own yet and I am probably one of the biggest suckers on these boards.
I only wish the best for you in whatever you decide.
TDM

April 10, 2007
6:51 am
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taj64
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Me too I wish you the best. I truly think it is a rish, but you never know. I wonder though, do you feel differently this time because you said he is different or perhaps because since this has happened a few times, that you are more immune to it and indifferent and perhaps it it is easier to try again because that it what you are used to trying again. I remember being married to my alcholic husband and after awhile situations were chaotic, breaks up were chaotic after awhile were not because I was used to them. You get used to settling after you do it so many times. Only you truly do know if he is different than all the rest but I have doubts because I see thinking with the heart. He is not really different and I hope you realize this sooner than later. The fact that you are still trying to decide means that you are settling again. Be strong, don't take a guy back so many times especially after only six months. Be careful, and don't take on a grown man who has to constantly learn from and doesn't know right from wrong until too late. Really that is just yet another excuse. Of course he was hurt by it. I already see this guy made it all about fixing his pain. I hope you come to your senses sooner rather than later. Pick a guy you trust from the beginning and follows through consistently and not keep picking men that have to earn the trust. You deserve better guys than all these guys. I also read that you completely trust your ex ex and you said he is an alcoholic. I don't trust alcholics but maybe he is the exception. I really don't know but trust is valuable to you so why settle for something that has to be worked on. I hope you will be honest with yourself. And most of all I hope you get stronger than what I see, someone still hopeful for a guy that might be trustworthy.

April 10, 2007
6:53 am
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taj64
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I meant don't be hopeful on a guy that might NOT be trustworthy.

April 12, 2007
1:22 am
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az_gilbert
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Hopefull - - past behavior might be an indicator, but it is not an absolute science. I speak as one who has learned an awful lot over the last 9 months and implemented some very major changes in my life. Maybe too late for the thing I now realize was the most important thing in my life, but changes for the better nonetheless. It is hard to admit to myself what a selfish self-centered person I was for a very long time, and even harder to forgive myself. Maybe I can someday, I don't know. What I do know is that I now have very different goals and aspirations than before. I am a very different (man) person that what I was. I cannot go back - as a personal choice, I can't be that old version of myself.

So, indicators are indicators, but please don't tar us all with the 'unchangable' label.

Thx

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