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In light of recent threads...I'm about done here.
January 4, 2006
7:56 pm
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Lt4Others
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Folks,

I think I understand both sides of this issue. If we've had one more bad experiences with people of a particular gender, we can try and attribute their troublesome characteristics to all members of that sex. I've seen that happen.

On the other hand, when I've read the thread more closely, I discovered that posters there were seeking input from others who may have had similar experiences. In each case I can remember, it really wasn't what I would call "bashing". It was more a way to express/question their feelings and solicit input from others.

I've been here about a month and participated in several meaniningful discussions. I've learned a lot....about myself and about others. I'm male and at no time did I feel slighted or discriminated against. Like others have said, we're just trying to express ourselves and help each other work through our issues. I'm thankful for the friends I've met here, male and female.

Peace.....Lt4Others

January 4, 2006
8:30 pm
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Rasputin
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Lewis,

Kudos!! Perfectly right on!

January 5, 2006
2:33 am
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Matteo
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tracylyn,

I absolutely agree with your comment that people who are helping me to see my side of the story are helpful in opposition to those who are telling me how disrespected I was or how the loving relationship should look like. I know very well how, and most others here do as well, that’s why we are on this site seeking help to get out and break free.

kathygy,

You gave me an excellent advice not longer than yesterday in regards with dating, you warned me not to slip again by any means, and I appreciate it very much. I will take your advice on dating anytime, and I am sure you will be right; actually I took it twice already, and I am sure for better outcome for me.

Having said that, I am not sure how much do you know about abuse in its variety, psychological damage it causes and the healing processes which also take various forms for different individuals and different relationships, and length and form of dysfunction in those relationships. I am not sure how much do you know about how severely abuse affects one’s self esteem, and how long it takes to heal, to get better, to start believing in oneself again or for the first time ever. It is not just closing the door behind and moving on; if that was the case this site would be empty.

There is also an aspect of validating one’s feelings, which feelings might be undeserved by the objects, “inappropriate” or counterproductive. Nevertheless they are real and valid, and often very painful. Women are not putting the abusers on pedestals. They simply love them. Almost everyone, if not everyone, has something to love within themselves, and this is what women here see in those who hurt them. Those positive traits of the abusers brought them into relationships, those traits kept them there and the same positive traits also cause their departure so difficult and hurtful. Some can call it codependency, but for me the vastly vast term “codependency” is an easy cover-up for feelings of not reciprocated love. But that’s another thread. I am aware that I am entitled to my opinion here, just like everybody else, thank you.

Women (and men) express their love for their abusers on this site often, because this is what this site is meant to be: a safe place to freely talk and express those painful thoughts and feelings. For me, and I am sure for many others, telling here that I love a Narcissist who dropped me like a hot potato prevents me from contacting him, and makes my deep to my bones wounds healing faster, and spares me a lot of pain. Exactly the same what he did that was incredibly positive for me, causes that I am having such great difficulty with letting go. And no, he is not on the pedestal, and he is not pure evil either. Just a human being. Trust me, kathygy, you are not making anybody a favor by criticizing and judging their deeply wounded feelings and the way they (myself included) are expressing them. That doesn't help anyone's self-esteem, either.

Getting back to the subject of male bashing, I don’t see it here. The only thing which struck me a while ago was how different response the abused man on this site got about the necessity on working on his relationship, in opposition to the advice women are getting in similar situation. I wouldn’t call it men bashing. I think for some it was just difficult to see that in that case the roles were reversed.

January 5, 2006
5:33 am
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feline
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I would like to say what a valid point that we don't all necessarily put our abusers on a pedastal. In my case I had made vows, promises, to him, my children and our families to be married to this man for better or for worse. On the whole we got on well. There was physical, emotional and verbal abuse. But not regularly, only when something else was going wrong in his life usually. When he learnt to express himself and get to the bottom of the problem things could be sorted. I never felt like I put him on a pedastal, I just loved the man I married for his good and bad points. I put my heart and soul into my marriage, just like I had vowed.

January 5, 2006
1:50 pm
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dalpuz
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Thank you everyone, this is helping alot to understand.

My first thread which explains pretty well everything starts..."A man new to this project...." I t was about a month ago.

I'll explain more after I get back from walking my dog.

January 5, 2006
3:17 pm
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kathygy
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traclyn,

I see the first step in recovring from destructive relationships to awareness. When I have a feeling that a woman lacks the awareness that she does not deserve abusive or any form of poor treatment I think it is important to point that out. Many women don't believe that they deserve so any more than they are getting. I want all women to know that they deserve to be treated with love and respect all of the time in a reliable and consistent manner. I know just pointing that out won't necessarily fix the problem but I see as a step in unpeeling the onion from layers of mis-treatment and poor self-esteem.

Matteo,

you are mis-understanding where I am coming from. I never intent to criticise anyone's feelings or put them down. What I am aiming for is to raise self-awareness and to point out destructive behavior and how that is bad for self-esteem. I really want to see all women learn to love theirselves and place more value on thier own feelings than on the man's.

If I say to someone, it sounds like you don't value yourself very much. I'm not saying they are a bad person but I am giving honest feedback so they can do something about it.

If a woman is hurting herself by staying with an abusive man for example I think it is important for the woman to see that so she can makes changes. I'm coming from a caring position. I want to empower women.

As far as abuse goes, I know a great deal about it and have zero tolerance for any type of abuse. Walking away from an abuser is a necessary step to begin the healing process. Once away from the abuser than its much easier to work on self care.

January 5, 2006
5:14 pm
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Marlex
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Dalpuz,

Please dont leave...I will miss your sense of humor and you have given me hope that there are some nice men out there and I have to do is focus on the good ones. My problem has been that I have been attracted to the wrong ones.

Anyway, you are free to do whatever you like if you dont think this is fit for you or your circumstances. Just check in and say hello sometimes and let us know how you are doing.

January 5, 2006
6:28 pm
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Anonymous
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As I see Dalpuz, women talk more and bond more, not to say that they remain that way. Men talk less, get less response. I've too been discouraged at times that this site is so women populated but then Im a woman and with perception havent much to loose.

And if the issue is cheating, Im thorn though Ive never cheated and there I know of , never been cheated.

Best of luck and great 2006!

January 6, 2006
3:09 pm
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tracylyn
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Kathy ~

I absolutely agree with your point as well. My comment isn't so black and white. As I've stated, there are some reactions that just bash the guy for his wrong doings and don't see the bigger picture.

An example - someone stated that they felt bad for going thru their bf's phone records because they don't trust him because he once cheated. She stated that he got help, he came clean, he loves her and wants to make it work yet she has huge insecurities now. 9 times out of 10, the response will be that he was a jerk for cheating and she has every right to snoop. WHAT? HUH? If she is willing to try and learn to trust and work it out - then he needs to be able to trust her too. And that means not going thru his stuff. An honest relationship requires honesty all around.

So this is my point - why do we so often jump to the defense of the woman. In the above example - she is clearly wrong but so many times responses will bash him for cheating in the first place.

I see this often - perhaps other's don't. Again, just what I see and how I call it.

t

January 6, 2006
3:29 pm
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glittered when he walked
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there is some infrequent male bashing that goes on here...But I'm not scared! : ) More often than not the discourse is guided back toward more functional ways of thinking and problem solving.

In the end, we can only control ourselves. bashing a partciular group or person doesn't serve to correct the problems we have with them.

January 6, 2006
3:48 pm
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kathygy
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traclyn,

in your example, I would say that if a woman has problems with feeling insecure she needs to stay away from men who trigger her insecurity by cheating. Also, of course she needs to work on feeling more secure in herself but that's easier done with a man who hasn't broken her trust.

I'm not bashing the man but I am saying he's not good for her given her trust issues. Very often people pick the type of person that triggers their childhood wounds. This makes it much harder to heal the wounds.

Ideally, this woman needs to be with a man who trully loves her and wants to support her in healing her trust issues, not stimulate them.

January 6, 2006
5:19 pm
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Amazed
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I have to say from my experience here that often I find people will side with the poster because of the way the post is written. One of the advantages/disadvantages of this site is the we all are annonomus. I could write, as well as anyone, any story here and tell it anyway I want to - no one would know the difference. I could write that I am a dead ringer for Tyra Banks and nobody would really know I struggle with my weight and probably need a new style with my hair. So I have to admit to often getting very frustrated with reading the supporting posts when in fact any questions to clarify have never been asked. Anyone reading my posts will always see me say - ask and learn, judge and be lonely. I urge people to ask 4 questions in any conversation. Liars can't last that long and the story becomes much more clear. But often right off the bat, the ex is terrible and the abusers should be sent to jail.

I'm all for showing support and writing supportive things here BUT only after I know the story. I don't understand why I should just write supporting statements just to be one of the girls. For me, I've done much better asking before I support or quesion in a negative way. Personally I get more from this site when people discuss vs. trying to form a on line "gang".

Because this site is largely female I think maybe rather than just saying this is the Oprah show, maybe we owe it to each other to be more open and understanding - I think people are here for help and yes sometimes that can be in the form of support but how dangerous can it be if we are supporting the wrong thing?

As I posted the other day - I'd much rather be honest with my feelings - presented the right way - then just being supported because I'm a girl on this site. Now how can anyone here know what my needs are before you talk to me. Oh I could write that I need the support - yep I need someone to support me in the fact that I just found out how great this new drug is. It's great - gives me energy, gives me the ability to lose weight AND it even makes my hair look better than it ever has. In fact I feel just wonderful - Girls you should join me with this stuff. I feel like a million dollars and I am proud of ME!!!! Aren't you girls proud of me for working on ME??? Now I'd get - you go girl - Amazed we are so proud of you. But am I on cocaine or maybe just a diet suppliment? BIG difference.

I'm sorry but I just can't buy into the support issue or the bashing of an ex or someone who isn't here to support their side. In fact this site stresses not to share so you can discuss openly - yet what would you say if you knew your ex was able to read what you wrote - might they, the person you are writing about have a different perspective. Might they want to post their side and then let everyone judge. But we can't and we don't do that.

Tracylyn in your example I think the woman should be supported and questioned. I'm wondering why wouldn't she have some insecurities with him. Just because he loves her, told her about the cheating, what security does she gain from that. If that indicates his honesty then I'd have to ask why it took the girlfriend looking at his phone records to come clean. BIG RED FLAG. This girl maybe didn't do the right thing by going into personal records. To me it indicates that she had a mistrust and did snooping to confirm her concerns. Sure there are other ways to do that and she should have. So is it her job to "learn" to trust or is it his job to earn the trust? Is it her job to work it out or is it her job to determine if she can live with the idea that this might happen again - could be a million years from now but how would she feel when/if it happened again. She would feel cheated again and stupid for allowing it to happen again. "and he needs to be able to trust her too"???? But wait who broke the trust in the first place??? In my opinion once you break the trust you can never fully regain it - ever - because of the unknown - will it happen again? So is she clearly wrong? Or could it be two people who might be on a wrong track. To me if you have cheated it might be a flag to some unhappiness and the person has had to go somewhere else to find what they are missing or not expeiencing. What I'm trying to point out here is that I don't feel the woman is totally to blame - the guy does derseve to take some blame as well - but they were both wrong in this case. I'd also have to say that the woman shows some real codependancy issues if she has to learn to trust a guy who has cheated on her. I think there is a way to discuss stories like this which don't have side - AND I love these stories because they are like a good puzzle. Something you can twist and turn and look at a bunch of ways to see how to fit it together best. To me that is what I enjoy about this site - when people post their different views and ways to look at things - not sitting around bashing on someone who isn't here to defend themselves.

I agree with you Dalpuz, that a lot of times I feel like people bash here too fast and yes a lot of times on the men. Gosh we all need them too - to learn from and to grow from. I love to read the posts of some of the men here. They make me smile and laugh just as much as the women and the other view is very refreshing.

Just my two cents worth.

January 9, 2006
11:13 pm
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zinnia
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Amazed,
I have gotten myself in a bit of trouble for not being so warm & fuzzy, too.

But I think we will always be in the minority.

Personally, I have not seen that much anti-male bias, but I have not gone into a lot of threads that are clearly going to be about male-female relationships because I'm looking for other kinds of support in recovery.

There is really no way to come up with an objective measure, anyway.

January 9, 2006
11:42 pm
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Amazed, you've said so much so well here. Thank you.

I'm reading and re-reading what you said about trusting again. Because it stresses accountability, sensibility, but does not destroy hope. Very non-judgmental. Cheating and forgiving and trust. Anyone who's been through it knows how next to impossible it is to believe in your untarnished love story again. But it doesn't mean you have to throw away the partner. It does mean you take your rose-tinted glasses off.

January 10, 2006
2:01 am
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Matteo
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Oh I could write that I need the support - yep I need someone to support me in the fact that I just found out how great this new drug is. It's great - gives me energy, gives me the ability to lose weight AND it even makes my hair look better than it ever has. In fact I feel just wonderful - Girls you should join me with this stuff. I feel like a million dollars and I am proud of ME!!!! Aren't you girls proud of me for working on ME??? Now I'd get - you go girl - Amazed we are so proud of you. But am I on cocaine or maybe just a diet suppliment? BIG difference

Hi Everyone,

Sorry to interrupt the cozy chat but I found the above sentences sexist and extremely judgmental. There is a big difference between being “warm and fuzzy” and being sarcastic and judgmental. Maybe this site is also a good place for those who want to bust their egos, because their problems are smaller than those who are posting here. It is so easy to look from far and high and judge what is going on the threads. Have bravery to reach out, to open up and share your story, to get to the core of your own pain, then we can talk; maybe then your judgment towards others would be less. Most probably everybody would benefit.

I believe that no one has a right to judge others, no matter what their issues are and no matter what they went through, no matter if they are on hard core drugs, addicted to diet pills, Prozac or nothing at all. Nobody walked in their shoes, nobody went through their pain, and nobody lived their lives. And if they are here and they are asking for help, they deserve to receive it.

If I chose to do so, I always support those who post here in a good faith, that they themselves had courage to be vulnerable, and had faith in others to reach out for help. And I have enough respect for myself to be respectful towards them. Questioning someone when they are in crisis, is like having a heart attack, calling an emergency and hearing somebody questioning if you are really sick. If you are not, you will be sent home as fast as you were taken to the hospital. If you are ill, your life might have been saved. Same here: I can always ask questions later on when the poster feels supported and is able to get to her issues calmly, while she feels safe. If she or he is lying, they will be gone before you know it.

If someone tells you how they feel, don’t tell them that their feelings are wrong, because you don’t like how they feel, or it is not good for them to feel that way. They have the right to their feelings. Their feelings are true, real and often painful. Their feelings belong to them, not to anyone else, no matter what; they are not to be judged or questioned by anyone else because of their feelings. Be grateful that they were generous to share them with you, instead.

And yes, the abusers should be send to jail, instead of being tolerated and catered to by the society; female abusers included – not talking about females who killed their spouses after being abused for decades. Maybe fewer women would be murdered by their husbands every year. Maybe fewer children would become victims of incest. As I said before, I don’t see any male bashing, but I would rather do that than turn someone in need from the emergency room. I am glad if I may be of any help in any way. You might be happy that you are not the one who needs help.

January 10, 2006
5:10 am
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Dalpuz,

I have have to agree with what you say. Over the past almost 2 years since coming to this site, there is a lot of male bashing as you put it. But you have to put it into perspective the number of women verses men here. I think you would find it the direct opposite if it were more men to women. What I have found helpful is to take what is given to my post with a grain of salt or apply what I feel is useful advise. It is a shame that you feel it is to bad for you to continue visiting. I have found myself coming here quite less since the first time I started posting here, so obviously I have gotten some much needed strenght from it. I hope you change your mind and continue to post.

Much Luv,
Luv2

January 10, 2006
10:26 am
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glittered when he walked
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In the end, if there ever is/was gender bashing we don't have to take that onto ourselves.

I think it's safe to assume that all of us have our hands full w/ our own issues/dysfunctions/problems, therefore, we don't need to take onto ourselves the dysfunctions/issues/problems of others. Only I am responsible for me - no one else is responsible for my actions and I am not responsible for the actions of others. If others choose to bash, that is their choice and doesn't reflect on me.

January 10, 2006
11:19 am
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tracylyn
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Amazed ~

Our history is exactly what I'm refering to hear. Our dialog regarding my ex was what I needed. I gave my sob story about my evil, evil ex and many posts called him names, and bashed him. Many too just sypathized with me which yes, is comforting, but also feeds into the victim roll.

You on the other hand, came in and said yep, he's a bad one but come on Tracy - look at how you enable him and protect him. I hated it when you said it but damn, in the end, THAT is exactly what I needed to hear. After years of being the victim I also became a huge part of the problem because I let it go on, I turned the other cheek, I covered for him, make excuses for him to no end. What I needed to hear was not that he was a creep - I knew that. What I needed was exactly what you gave. You slapped me in the face and said, snap out of it, look at your part.

So that is the only point I was trying to make here.

My example from above was only hypothetical and so there are many, many scenerios. My only point was that many times we judge and bash the man for what he's done without looking to the poster for her part. We are quick to judge the "bad guy" and label him as the abuser, narcissist, charmer....but we fail to look at the bigger picture. This by no means says everyone has a part and by no means excuses the man's behavior. I'm merely stating (IMO) that we need to focus more on the poster and not the abuser. By that I mean yes, discussion of the issues and what he has done can be discussed, a label perhaps to better understand and help the poster but this can be done without judging.

To answer your question from my example regarding "should she feel secure" - No, I don't think she should given the fact that this hypothetical man cheated on her, however if she wants the relationship to work and be healthy, then she needs to learn to trust and feel secure again. My example refers to her looking at phone records AFTER she's already known of the indiscretion, he's gotten help and they are now supposed to be working on the relationship. It's wrong to look at someone's private records. If she can't ask him, or if she doesn't believe him, then it's up to her to decide if the relationship is right for her. If she's made a decision to work it out, then she needs to learn to trust. My example was stating that she posted with concerns of her insecurities and many times responses would be that he deserves his privacy invaded or that he did something wrong so who cares if she betrayed him by snooping.

So, with all of this being said, my point throughout this thread has only been that many times I feel that the men have been judged and bashed and there is some advise thrown about that is biast as a direct result of what the responder her/himself is going through in their own lives. Each responder has different opinions, different backgrounds, diffent life situations and many times you can read into that by the way they respond. Again, this isn't bad and I'm not judging or labeling. It's just my humble opinion......

t

January 10, 2006
2:31 pm
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Amazed
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Oh Matteo I think you have misunderstood my posting. I have to say I agree with your comment that nobody has the right to judge others. I don't believe your quote of what I wrote is judging or definatly not sexist. Trust me I am far from sexist, which is probably why I'm on a post from a male telling people his vision of this site is that is can be sexist and I'm agreeing with him!!!

I trying to identify what things I said are much different from what you said and I think I identified one small difference. I don't look at asking people questions about their posts or what they say to me in person as questioning in a judgemental way. What I do is ask people at least four questions (which is also in my post) to try and draw from them more information. My point is that often a person can post here in a way that will allow others to form an opinion that is based only on provided information. My example that you quoted was to show that - I could write many things that would tell you I'm a beautiful model and such when in reality I'm an aging person with graying hair and am overweight. So I'm not writing that I question anyone who says they are beautful on the site but mearly asking more quesitons of them to maybe help them or their situation or in most cases help myself.

I make a living helping people that are like many on this thread so trust me when I say that I don't have to come here to judge people because I sit high above the rest. In fact I love to come here because I learn from what people write that maybe I don't experience every day. I would hope others would be here for the same reason. I also know that people come here for support but again I can relate many personal stories with my own work that shows the pain and hurt that is inflicted when we only listen to one story. How many divorces do we grant in this country because we only listened to the story of the one person - hopefully not too many. In fact many times a judge won't even grant a divorce until the couple has went to counciling and both sides are represented. I mean we are talking about things as serious as divorce on this site right? In the end the judge listens to both sides AND the councilers opinion to hopefully make the right judgement.

In this post the point was that a person felt there was a lot of bashing of males here. I think many agreed that there are many more women here than men and so there was a good chance that the males might always be discussed. I read much more than I write and I have to agree with the point that the are a lot of negatives posted on this site about people who aren't here to represent their side. I made that note to show that it's not maybe a sexist or male only comment. That maybe we could all do a better job of asking some questions before we determine that a person is good or bad or that a male is good or bad. I don't know and I felt it was unfair to say only males were being bashed here. So in the end, I agree with some of what you have said but I don't agree that we can't question. Either way the good part about the site is that you can do what you feel is right and I can do the same - in case I do have to show my support for Dalpuz and support his statments but wanted to clarify WHY I felt that way.

Tracylyn,

Thank you for your post. I hope Matteo can read that and understand my point of view here. I feel it does work when you ask people and then try to help vs. just jumping on the band wagon.

I understand your point and I think we are on the same page. In your example I was trying to show an example of how both people should be looked and asked some hard questions. I then tried to draw conclusions on your points to show that it doesn't always have to be a positive or negative but both parties could have things they need to work on.

In todays post you have kind of clarified some things from your example. I still stand by my inital comment that this example is not all about her. Cheating or mistrust is the basis for a lot of failures in our relationships today. If she has made a decision to make it work I still don't believe it's all up to her to forgive and forget. Him getting help doesn't mean that it will never happen again - if she is willing then they both need to redevelop a trust - BUT let me say the one hard part that I feel is almost impossible to overcome. That is that she (and yes this can apply to the he's) will have to be able to erase the memory of what she found and NEVER use that against him ever again. Can any of us do that when we really get mad at someone? I haven't found anyone and that is the problem. It's easy to forgive someone but it's very hard to forget the experience. For me trust is earned not something she should have to learn to do. HE needs to show her why she should and it takes a LONG time for that hurt to heal. I'm talking about years - not a few trips to a councelor and poof it's done. I can't begin to tell you of the failures I see due to this kind of issue and the mistrust the stays with that relationship in the long term. I'm not one to say it's impossible because then I find people trying to prove me wrong but I can tell you that I haven't seen any couple yet to get past that. If it goes to the point of snooping into records then it must have been serious enough to warrant it. Again I don't agree with it but it tells me that it made someone do something they knew was wrong. Tracylyn, if this was you could you? In a way it's kind of like your ex story you talked about here. You kind of enable that behavior if you work it out.

I think your example is a prime example of a lot of relationships in trouble today. I'm not saying there aren't good ones. I see those too and they are wonderful trusting relationships - where the two people are so in love with each other that they have no reason to go anywhere else - they want to be with each other not with others they find attractive along the way. So my point is that they BOTH have some issues - IF he's been given another chance he's got a huge long term uphill battle to regain the trust. It will take years - so if they truely feel they have those kind of years then maybe it's worth it. She will also have to learn to accept the past behavior no matter what happens along the way - and that is tough to do. But I don't feel that she carry's the burden of having to accept or trust him - he needs to earn it. I guess in a way I'm old fashioned - I feel both are wrong but I think a guy/girl cheating on someone he has committed to is worse than someone snooping in records. Oh my they are both so aweful I hate to even rate them but I hate the cheaters!!!

I think we are all on the same page in that we want honesty and to be able to help people in all situations. I hope that this thread, a brave one in my opinion, has maybe opened the eyes of some on this site as to how support can be taken here.

January 14, 2006
1:36 am
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Matteo
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Amazed,

Regarding the quote, let’s clarify the definition.
Sexism. 1. discrimination against women or men because of their sex
2. sexual stereotyping the tendency to treat people as cultural stereotypes of their sex.
If what you wrote in your post is not sexual stereotyping, which is sexism, than what is it? The examples you gave to support your point are also full of stereotyping and judgments, and probably you cannot see it as well. Why an aging, overweight person with graying hair couldn’t be beautiful? And by what standards skinny beyond all reasons models are beautiful?? But that’s beside the point.

I read on this threads a few statements written by people who claimed to work as counselors, and more often than not they were very judgmental, sadly, so I am not that surprised.

I understand your view point quite well, but I don’t see how I can possibly agree with it. I don’t see any rationale why a divorce should not be granted to someone who does not wish to stay in a relationship, not to mention unhappy or abusive relationship.

This site is not a counseling agency aimed to keep the societal structures, marriage among them, intact. Neither does it have any ambitions to become a bastion of an absolute justice and fairness. This is a self-support site aiming for peer support of other victims and survivors. No, divorce is not the most serious issue discussed on those threads, if you didn’t notice. Much more often much more serious problems are being discussed here, as serious as are various forms of abuse, its repercussions and aftermath.

Divorce is often the only consequence and choice following the abuse. If you, instead of providing support for victims of abuse prefer lamenting over not listening to the abuser’s side of the story, and trust me, they can be very convincing, then I feel sorry for those victims who have bad luck ending up in your office. I am sure sooner or later they will end up on a site like this one. If they still will be alive -- or alive enough to reach out.

By the way, I saw abusers’ stories on those threads as well. And they were supported and given a benefit of a doubt that they want to change. Maybe sometimes the abused, “male bashing” women have more empathy than counselors? Go figure.

January 14, 2006
4:31 am
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Philmore Bowles
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My 2 cents.

POV 1: "Basher"

If, in fact, someone is making truly sexist and steroetypical remarks about any group of people, consider that person's attitude and perspective. Consider what motivates them to think in those terms. It's fear. Being angry with someone who is protecting themselves only exacerbates the problem for them - and creates one for you at the same time.

Considering the forum, whatever bashing goes on here is probably as much venting as anything. I've learned that it's an acceptable way for someone who is feeling oppressed to address their problem. I would be pissed off too if I were in some of these folks' shoes.

I would also point out that taking offense to the bashing is as much a choice as the bashing itself. It's a matter of seeing it for what it is, not how it feels.

POV 2: "Bashee"

I've felt that there was some sexism amd stereotyping going on, here and there. But hey, the world is like that and it's pretty typical from both camps in my real world experience.

When I take these statements to heart, it's usually because I believe there is some truth to what is being said. Some aspect that applies directly to a fear that I have about myself. So in essence, I am angry because I don't want to admit something.

I don't take offense to wildly inaccurate insults - I usually just chuckle and shake my head. When someone hits close to home, it's another story.

January 14, 2006
5:24 pm
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zinnia
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OPV 2 looks like a ratinalization of it's ok to abuse, and not ok to react to the abuser in a critical fashion.

I don't know or care about the overall question of sexism because I would have to read too many threads to see if it is accurate. Besides that, I suspect that it is a natural tendency that more women use this type of board than men, but who really can tell?

I don't understand the idea many people in this board seem to have that anyone who opens a support thread is in a "crisis" and that it is appropirate to start "treating" them within a single post or two!

There are a lot of good reasons to open support threads on personal and emotionally painful topics, but there is no good reason to assume that the original poster is obligated to accept every piece of currently fashionable jargon that can be posted, or that respondents necessarilly have to place themselves in a therapist role.

If there is male-bashing going on as a pattern throughout the board, it is because too many of the posters are learning from pop culture and politically correct "counselors" that it is ok to do that.

January 14, 2006
5:25 pm
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zinnia
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*pov* not *OPV* sorry bad typist 🙁

January 14, 2006
7:04 pm
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Philmore Bowles
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Zinnie - About POV 2: OK, or not OK is beside the point - it's up to each of us to decide what's OK. You have the right to feel whatever the heck you want. I feel a lot of stuff that isn't very effective as far as growth is concerned - so I don't always rely on my feelings.

The point of POV 2 is about taking responsibility for my own reaction - despite the input. It's seeking the answers to my problem within myself. The reaction is in me and that's who I can control. I've rarely found solutions for my problems within other people.

That's what works for me. I don't like to think of myself as a victim, though I was abused by a woman for several years.

I have seen many blanket statements casting men, or "types" of men in a negative light. I dont need to read any more. I don't think simply indulging that behavior offers a solution to the underlying problems that motivate it. That's why I speak up, albeit rarely.

Maybe it's simply a matter of symantics and I'm missing the point? Then take my POVs for what they're worth, I guess.

I don't know who's doing "treatment", if that's addressed to me. I feel that I have as much right to express my opinion and experience as anyone else here - and I will continue to do so.

Support takes on many forms. What works for some won't for others. Some people want to vent, some want advice, etc. - I just express what seems relevant to me. You certainly aren't expected to agree with me.

Someone out there might get something out of what we are both saying, while not fully agreeing with with either of us. I thought we were all here to offer our perspective, no?

I absolutely agree with your last statement - and, I'm not qualified to say what therapists should be teaching their clients. Pop culture is largely ridiculous in my opinion, then again the internet is a part of that. I want to see things, as best I can, for what they are - not for how I feel about them.

Just wanting to be helpful at the end of the day - hopefully we all are. 🙂

January 14, 2006
10:31 pm
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zinnia
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My statement about "treatment" wasn't at all directed at you, Philmore. it was general.

There are a lot of posters who jump into a thread after the first post with a few therapy cliche's and this is very condescending. If you are not lucky enough to have a good conversation start in the first one or two posts, it is almost impossible to get one started past the cliche's because the posters who are so quick with the cliche's really have an agenda of keeping themselves in a certain role and are not tolerant of experiences or situations that don't fit their cliches.

It seems that victims are supposed to be absolutely noncritical and completely receptive of these cliches and the fact that the cliches that blame the victim are part of the abuser's game is never supposed to be pointed out.

The abusers can come into threads and tell the posters they deserve what they are getting because they empower abusers, making the abuser a neutral and not a pro-active factor.

Posters who confront are quickly faced with a cluster of abuse-supporters who are all very calm and who characterize all confrontation as abuse, and who call for ousting the original poster within two postings!

They completely ignore the fact that they have taken a thread that was opened by a mother whose daughter is dying and turned it into a little catfight about what kind of nerve she has to post something without being tolerant of their cliches and their attempt to turn her into something they can play with.

They are so obtuse they don't even see that they have gone into a thread whose original post was far more important than their pixelated little egos.

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