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if treatment isnt working, and you're trying your darndest, then what?
October 7, 2004
10:36 pm
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Although depression is a real medical illness, many people still mistakenly believe it is a personal weakness.

Screening for Mental Health, Inc. and the President and Fellows of Harvard College.

http://www.depression-screenin.....mptoms.htm

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"What causes manic depression?
Nobody understands this completely, BUT research has shown that manic depression does seem to run in families, and that it seems to have more to do with genes than with upbringing. It seems that the parts of the brain which control our moods don't work properly - this is why the symptoms of manic depression can be controlled with medication. Episodes of illness can sometimes be brought on by stressful experiences, lack of support, or physical illness. *So, it's no use expecting someone with this problem to just 'pull themselves together'. *"

Royal College of Psychiatrists
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/info/...../index.asp

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"WHAT IS A DEPRESSIVE DISORDER?
A depressive disorder is an illness that involves the body, mood, and thoughts. It affects the way a person eats and sleeps, the way one feels about oneself, and the way one thinks about things. A depressive disorder is not the same as a passing blue mood.* It is not a sign of personal weakness or a condition that can be willed or wished away. People with a depressive illness cannot merely "pull themselves together" and get better.* Without treatment, symptoms can last for weeks, months, or years. Appropriate treatment, however, can help most people who suffer from depression."

The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), part of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), a component of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/public.....ession.cfm

October 7, 2004
10:42 pm
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Cici
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i guess the key word here is appropriate treatment. there's no such thing as one methodology that works for everyone.

October 7, 2004
10:48 pm
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Right now i have someone who is considered to be one of the best doctors in the country. I hope I'm not one of her more exemplary patients.

Over the period of 22 years, I think I've tried everything under the sun short of leaving western civilization (which might be a good move if it were permanent!)

-ella

October 8, 2004
12:15 pm
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gingerleigh
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I am reading this book which is 94% stupid ass, 2% ridiculous, and 4% spot on. Not a great ratio, but that 4% has some real hum-dingers in it. One thing that it mentioned only in passing sadly, was how the more technologically advanced outwardly a society becomes, the more emotionally disconnected and "sick" people become. Ella, perhaps that part about leaving western society isn't that off the wall after all...

The book is called something like "Everything in this book isn't true, but it's the way things really are" or some such nonsense.

October 8, 2004
12:19 pm
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kathygy
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What are you trying to say here? I don't think depression is a sign of weakness at all. I suffer from it and have gotten a lot better with therapy and medication combined.

October 8, 2004
7:45 pm
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Molly
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Disclaimer this is harsh... not for the weak.
How bad do you really want to get better ? Do you really think that a pill will work ? On its own? I believe in therapy, but it has to be real, you have to be real, the therapist has to not be direct, so they don't scare you off so that you won't come back to help make their car payment. The Md, will continue to write scripts as long as the insurance pays. Is their agenda really in your best interest for you to get well ? Do they confront you, do they impower you, do they tell you when you are in you act blaming,staying sick, or always confused or do they encourage you to take steps perhaps risks ? and grow ? Have they ordered blood tests to ascertain that it isn't thyroid, diabetes, or menopause,synergistic reactions to other medications, number one side effect is depression, have one of them ever told you as the joke states that DAMN, you have a reason to be depressed? Have you exercised, have you changed your diet, have they coached you to discover what you are angry at, and to be angry and work through it ?Have they asked you what fun means to you and given you the assignment to discover it, and encourage it, or ........... do they just sit there and go ugh ugh ugh time up, and collect their fee? some times we have to be our own advocate, are you advocating you? Its not easy, to pull your self out of the dark hole, but .......... it is possible.

October 8, 2004
11:42 pm
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Molly, those are a lot of questions!

Here goes... I've been in treatment a long time, like I said... I have had a lot of perserverence, despite devastating lows and suicidal behaviors. Stuck with therapists and doctors until I have had to do otherwise for whatever reasons, moving, etc... let's go question by question... I am depressed, not "weak" enough to feel like I can't answer.

-How bad do you really want to get better ?

Never wanted anything more, and never put more effort into anything. Like i may have mentioned else where, it's a life long struggle- I try not to hold a resentment towards the implication by some people that depressed people simply "want to stay miserable"- I assume people on here say such things because they do not know the speaker (in this case me) personally, or do not know that much about depression. I know you do since you're a counselour so maybe I'm misinterpreting your question?

-Do you really think that a pill will work ? On its own?

No, but my own experience has proven to me that they are necessary for my survival. Bipolar disorder can be fatal, and for me with out meds, it most certainly has almost come to that.

I go to therapy for the environmental and behavioral stuff, I do believe in that as well.

However, I also know that even together they do not do miracles. At my worst, for example presently, I try to tell myself... well even though I'm not "happy" I should maintain these things because without them I would feel worse.

-I believe in therapy, but it has to be real, you have to be real, the therapist has to not be direct, so they don't scare you off so that you won't come back to help make their car payment.

My therapist is great, doesn't take any shit, doesn't sugar coat... and I wouldn't waste my time or money there being anything but "real" myself.

-The Md, will continue to write scripts as long as the insurance pays. Is their agenda really in your best interest for you to get well ?

I have a prominent psychopharmachologist/psychiatrist. Possibly the largest practice in the country. Actually, it is for this reason I may switch to another- for more personal service. She knows what she is doing... but I do have to advocate for myself a little more adamantly than I wish. I've had recent disagreements with her concerning side affects, and am considering second opinions about the drugs I'm on and levels. But right now I'm sticking with her b/c i need the stability of a doctor I know. Believe me, she doesn't need me to get rich.

-Do they confront you

yes,

-do they impower you, do they tell you when you are in you act blaming,staying sick, or always confused or do they encourage you to take steps perhaps risks ? and grow ?

all yes

-Have they ordered blood tests to ascertain that it isn't thyroid, diabetes, or menopause,synergistic reactions to other medications, number one side effect is depression, have one of them ever told you as the joke states that DAMN, you have a reason to be depressed?

Regularly.

-Have you exercised, have you changed your diet,

I'm working on these things. Getting to the gym is hard... but I walk a lot. (except this past two weeks). My diet is a healthy one. (with the exception of the occasional order of fries which I have recently sworn off!)

-have they coached you to discover what you are angry at, and to be angry and work through it?

Anger is a big issue with me. My therapist and I have been working on this for a while, in fact I had a special domestic violence counselor for a while after i got beat up once. it helped a little... but again... some of this is pure coping skills... the feelings are involuntary if one has a mood swing you still FEEL it. years ago i did intesive work about childhood issues and anger, and i am revisiting that again in therapy now.

-Have they asked you what fun means to you and given you the assignment to discover it, and encourage it,

Yeah I get fun "assignments" 🙂

-or ........... do they just sit there and go ugh ugh ugh time up, and collect their fee?

No. I did have a therapist like that once... she was the only one I left without a reason other then necessity.

-some times we have to be our own advocate, are you advocating you? Its not easy, to pull your self out of the dark hole, but .......... it is possible.

Thanks for putting so much thought into this Molly. I appreciate it so much.

I know it's supposed to be hard work. I'm trying to pull myself out of the hole...but I feel like there's a rope tied around my ankles.

-ella

October 8, 2004
11:47 pm
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gingerleigh-

Can you find out the exact title or author of that book?

October 8, 2004
11:48 pm
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kathygy- I agree with you- it's not a weakness- I'm glad you're treatment is working for you.

October 8, 2004
11:55 pm
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Sorry molly, missed something-

-do they impower you,

yes

-do they tell you when you are in you act blaming,staying sick, or always confused or do they encourage you to take steps perhaps risks ? and grow ?

I've never been told I was "staying sick" or always confused...

My best therapists, a past one, and the present one, have encouraged me to take risks and that has helped with some issues at some times

October 8, 2004
11:58 pm
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To answer the original post - for me - the intial damage was brought on thru inappropiate "physical and tactile" means from my father...the "role model" in my life that taught me how a man should treat a woman - and for me - the best way to counter-act that has been through safe touching by way of Reike massage from a male who exhibits nothing less than safe, loving touch. Talk therapy has it's place - but also it's limitations as well. I benefit greatly from Reike.

October 9, 2004
12:19 am
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brendalee-

Yeah...I've been wondering how much of an impact some of this childhood stuff has. Also, how much, to what degree is certain types of physical and tactile stuff inappropriate? I dealt with this a while ago in therapy, it's something you never "finish" discussing to the point of feeling like you understand it all. Such grey areas. I thought I got over that anger and stuff, even had therapy with my family- my dad was the most receptive one to the process. I love him so much.

I go back and forth, trying to budget my therapy time with this stuff. Since "you can't change the past, only work on the future," sometimes necessity dictates that I deal with the issues in the present that prevent me from functioning properly. Childhood problems do need to be dealt with though. That's a long term project...

It's cool you found something that works for you. Can you tell me a little more about it?

-ella

October 9, 2004
12:58 am
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Yes....would be glad to....I have to say up front that I kind of "pooh-poohed" the idea of "altenative therapy" - because - let's face it - there are a lot of wackos out there -Madame so and so palm reading etc....but then - as I looked through a local alternative medicine peridical - I noticed something....by God - if most of the folks pictured didn't look actually happy, you know? I mean - really radiating something...not what I've come to know in the traditional "talk therapy" circles. These folks actually LOOKED HAPPY & PEACEFUL....so I thought....hmmm...maybe they are on to something. Hard to discount so many obviously happy and peaceful looking folks. You talk about the "gray areas" I can't agree more. I think that what has happenned to us is in our past is literally "trapped in our cells" - on a molecular level...and the postive impact that I felt from having a Reike massage addressed that to some degree. I keep coming back to a book that I recently discovered entitled: "Waking the Tiger" by Peter Levine. His observations have been that there is trauma happenning all of the time in the animal kingdom - but that few animals are actually "traumatized" because they actually PROCESS the trauma in their bodies - release it - and go about their lives...where as we humans - because in large part due to our intellect - question it, etc, etc - and it never gets fully processed and released and thus stays in sort of a "traumatized suspended animation" hence, the name of his book - waking the Tiger - accessing that repitilian part of out brain that is not logic, is not rational, is not even emotional...but deeper than that...he talks about instinct. Not only the fight or flight response..but the third which is to "freeze" Fight, Flight or Freeze. And it's the freezing part - the part that keeps us "stuck" sort of speak as humans because of out intellect that looks for an explanation. I am really paraphrasing the book alot - but I think that you might catch my drift on what I'm trying to say here. It's kind of like saying to yourself that - for just a moment - I'm going to bypass the intellectual and even the emotional circuit of my brain and go right to the deep, inner reptile part...then - everything makes sense. Instinct. Pure instinct. We've all got it! And I can tell you that accessing it is really, REALLY POWERFUL!!!! After all, as a side note - the human fetus DOES still have a tail that tapers off during development...and yet "leftover" organs such as an appendix which today is still not known why it is still there in our human body was developed to process raw meat. Bottomline - though we might like to think otherwise - we, as humans are still first and foremost animals with organs that remind us of our origins. Kind of humbling. Kind of freeing.

October 9, 2004
1:16 pm
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Someone just told me that if I want to get through what I'm going through, I have to change "my way of thinking". I know it's true. I have to stick to the positives as hard as I can right now. I'm too fragile to look at the negatives right now. If I focus there, I'm done for.

So, I don't know if that helps at all, but I'll let you know if it's possible to change the way one thinks. I'm believing it is...

Ren'ai

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