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I sent him this email today (plz)
March 6, 2006
1:45 pm
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caraway
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DAMN! That is what I would call "tough love".

Cary

March 6, 2006
3:33 pm
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kathygy
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plz,

NO, I don't think you deserved that email however what I do think is that you are experiencing karma.

What goes around comes around. You got back what you put out. That's the way it works.

You put him down in your email and now he's putting you down in return.
Not that it makes his reaction O.K. but I do believe that what you put out is what you get back.

I do think you have some responsiblity for your part in these email exchanges. You can't expect to blast someone and then think they are just going to take it regardless of things that happened in your relationship.

Also, you know this man very well. You knew in your heart that he wouldn't take being judged and scolded very well. Are you really suprised by his reaction???

March 6, 2006
6:05 pm
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Anonymous
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No, Kathy, I am not surprised by his reaction at all. You are right, I know him well. I would, however, appreciate any evaluation from you on how I could have said things differently to have hopefully gotten thru somehow. This is really frustrating for me, so i would appreciate greatly anything you might offer to help me see things a different way. I understand how he would feel judged, as in a way, that's exactly was I was doing. But I suppose (in my head), I was doing it for all the right reasons. I know I need to learn a better way to communicate, as I remain frustrated most of the time.

So I would love to hear back from you (or anyone else) who may have some suggestions. Do I owe him an apology? He seems to thinks so. If I apologize, then does that cancel out everything I said to him about his problem with alcohol? I'm just asking because I'm getting conflicting information that is now confusing me. Please help me understand what you are trying to say. Thanks!!!

Caraway, you commented about how it sounded very "tough love". Isn't tough love necessary sometimes? I'm not sure if you meant that as a good thing or not, so I'd love for you to post again and tell me what you thought!

Thanks guys!!!

March 6, 2006
6:26 pm
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1lost1
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A new morning of a new life without you.

So?

There will be others much finer, much mine-er.

And until then there is me.

And because I treated you well, I like me better.

Also the sun rises.

March 6, 2006
6:52 pm
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lollipop3
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Plz~

On one hand I agree with Kathy that your e-mail was harsh and it shouldn't be surprising that he reacted the way he did.

BUT, I would also like to say that as an alcoholic, the sister of an alcoholic, the daughter of an alcoholic and the girlfriend of too many alcoholics, I still believe that no matter how you worded it...if he was not ready to hear it...you would have gotten the same reaction. I'd be willing to bet on it.

Having said that, I have also reacted, as you did, out of anger, frustration and despair which I very rarely feel good about and I have apologized many times.....not for what I said but for the way I said it. No one can blame you for the things you said. Living with an active alcoholic (and even sober ones) can be extremely frustrating and sometimes we lose our cool.

If you feel that you would like to apologize to him, not for WHAT you said, but for HOW you said it, then that might be good for you.... To know that you have made amends where you felt you needed to and then let it go.

However, if you don't feel the need to apologize, then by all means, don't. No one would blame you for that either.

As always this is just my opinion.

Love,
Lolli

March 6, 2006
7:07 pm
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elizabeth anne
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I don/t think an apology is in order. Did you not feel warrented to express your feelings. Were they all for naught? By apologizing, you are trying to take back feelings you felt at the time. I know I have said some things to my ex that put him down, because of my feelings of anger. And I have felt somewhat guilty as I never expressed myself to be so vindictive or mean. Which your letter was not mean/t to come across that way.

But what he did to me and what yours is doing to you is unacceptable. And sometimes you just want them to know how much it affects you. By apologizing you are saying it is ok to do what you are doing. When it is not!!

Mine is totally on the defensive as Kathy G said I don/t know if I will ever hear from him again because my moment of anger gave him the opportunity to say you put me down, so I can justify that you mean/t what you said. But at the same time what he did to me was very cruel in the same sense.

I just refuse to put up with behaviors I can/t live with. And maybe I went off the wall and if in time we ever do contact each other, perhaps we will address it then.

March 7, 2006
10:18 am
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Anonymous
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Thanks Elizabeth Anne! I was thinking the same as you, that if apologize then he won't take ANYTHING I said seriously. I don't know. That's what I HATE about being so damn codependent! I don't assert myself very often, and when I finally do, set some boundaries, and draw a line in the sand, I then start to feel bad and second-guess myself. It's so hard to walk that fine line, ya know?

I guess, in the end, I have to do what I think is right for me, and that's what matters the most. Haven't heard from him since yesterday, when he sent me that email telling me to stop acting like a snob. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't! I think no contact (for me) is the best thing right now.

Anyway, hugs to you and hope things get better for you as well. Hang in there!

Love, plz~

March 7, 2006
11:58 am
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lollipop3
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Plz~

You said:

"... if apologize then he won't take ANYTHING I said seriously."

That would only be the case if you were apologizing for the purpose of getting a reaction out of him. Which of course would be manipulation.

If you apologize because YOU feel as though your e-mail was too harsh and YOU feel that you WANT to apologize then it doesn't matter what he thinks. And if you were serious about what you wrote, it also won't matter what he thinks. Your ACTIONS will SHOW him that you are serious and are to be taken seriously.

Apologizing doesn't mean that he was right and all is forgiven. It is taking responsiblity for your own behavior. It is living up the person that YOU want to be.

To me, an apology shows strength, not weakness.

I'm not saying that should or should not apologize. That is entirely up to you. All I'm saying is that if you feel you want to apologize for being harsh....that doesn't mean that you didn't mean what you said.

As they say in Alanon....Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean.

Love,
Lolli

March 7, 2006
12:35 pm
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Anonymous
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(((((Lolli))))))) As usual, you came thru for me again! I get it! Thanks! Love it when those light bulb moments happen, don't you?

Right now, I'm keeping my distance. He thinks I'm being a snob, I call it self-preservation. He has not attempted to make contact any other way except thru email. He knows my number, and I (just for once) would love for him to pick up the phone and ask me if we could discuss things. In this relationship, I dare say we haven't discussed much at all! In the past, he usually just lays low until he thinks things have blown over, and I no longer want to "discuss" it. Then, it is swept under the rug only to rear it's ugly head at a later time. I have tried to tell him that we never resolve anything, but he always uses that "quit bringing up the past" excuse, and "I like to just move forward" bs.

At some point in the future, I will apologize for my harsh tone, but not for the message behind it. Obviously my frustration level has reached an all time high, because I don't feel like I ever have a "voice" in this relationship. We both need to be able to speak what is on our minds in a civilized manner even if it is just to agree to disagree. It's just that he seems to be all play, and is not ever able to step up if necessary. And that is definitely something that is VERY important to me in a relationship. I want someone with broad shoulders, cause I've carried the load for such a very long time.

Thanks again for your words. You are a true sweetheart and deserve the very best life has to offer! Any new news with your guy? How are you doing with all of this?

Love, plz~

March 7, 2006
12:40 pm
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kathygy
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plz,

I agree with lolli that if you apologize do it for you, for your recovery. I think it is never O.K. to judge someone, put someone down or scold them no matter how they've treated you.

You don't have to sink to his level.

You could simply say something like 'I was wrong to put you down and judge you. I apoligize for that. However,I still feel the same way about not wanting to be in a relationship with you unless you get help and get sober. It has been very painful to watch you in your active addiction"

I'm not saying I never judge people. In my mind I do sometimes but never to their face.

I see your job as taking care of your side of the street. Acting in a way that is full of integrity. So that you will feel good about who you are.

You asked how you could have worded the email differently.

I think you might have expressed your emotions around the relationship keeping the focus on you by saying something like:

"I feel very hurt, frustrated, angry,[whatever your precise emotions are]
that you choose alcohol over me and the effect that has had on our relationship. It hurts to see you in this state. I care deeply that you are dealing with this addiction.

However, I can no longer be in a relationship with you as long as you are drinking. Therefore, I am walking away from you."

That's it. I would keep it brief and leave all the stuff about his "gerbil life" and such out of the email.

If you have a need to vent and I can understand that you would, do it here or in your journal or outload to a chair as if the chair was him.

I hope this helps.

love,
kathy

March 7, 2006
12:56 pm
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Anonymous
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Yes, Kathy, that DOES help! Now that you showed me a different way to word the same thing, I agree with what you are saying. I can see in some of my comments (that were definite put-downs), that those are the things that stood out to him, he got defensive, and didn't hear the message behind my words. He probably "dismissed me" and tuned me out as soon as he felt insulted.

I'm not sure how to make this right. We kind of have a "stand off" going on, and I'm not sure I'm ready to try to talk to him. I get sooooooooo tired of always making the first move to try and make things right. Once before when I apologized to him for the way I said some things, I later found out from a friend that he told her he had "put me in my place, and he thought his hard-ass ways had earned him some respect." I'm not sure I liked the way he worded that--like it was a game and he had won. So, I think, for now, I will sit on this. I have a very busy week going on, and to tell you the truth, I'm not feeling like adding one more thing I have to do into the mix. Although, it really is hanging over my head like a cloud:(

I'll have to think on it some more. Thanks again for taking your precious time to post to me. It means so much!

Love, plz~

March 7, 2006
3:37 pm
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kathygy
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plz,

This isn't about making things right between the two of you, its not about him. it doesn't matter how he reacts.

Its about coming from your higher self. Its about making things right within YOU.

Its up to you of course but making amends can be very healing. When you take personal responsiblity for your wrongs you are taking the higher road.

I don't know what you said or how you said it last time you apoligized to him. So I can't comment on that.

I'm happy I helped.

love,
Kathy

March 7, 2006
4:42 pm
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lollipop3
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Plz~

I think that if you feel that you need to sit on this then that is exactly what you should do. Sometimes the best decision is no decision.

I did something very similar with the letter that I gave to b/f. I meant every, single thing I said in that letter and it was very difficult to write. And although it felt good to get it out, I wasn't sure if I should give it to him or not. I didn't know how he would react or how I would feel about his reaction....so I made the decision to wait until I knew in my heart that I could handle what ever came of it. I didn't give it to him until I was certain that I could give it to him and let it go.

As Kathy said....it is not about him, it is about being okay with you.

Take your time and do what your heart tells you to do, one way or the other. If it's right with you, then it is right, whether you eventually decide to apologize or not.

Love,
Lolli

March 7, 2006
5:08 pm
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Anonymous
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Kathy said: This isn't about making things right between the two of you, it's not about him. it doesn't matter how he reacts. IT'S ABOUT COMING FROM YOUR HIGHER SELF. IT'S ABOUT MAKING THINGS RIGHT WITHIN YOU.

Wow, now there's a new concept for me...actually making things right within my own heart and mind, regardless of how he receives it or reacts! I can tell I still have alot of work to do on MYSELF, because I've never really taken very good care of *her* before:) I've always based my success or good feelings about myself based on the REACTION I got, rather than whether or not I was doing the right thing for me. I think I'm starting to get it. Thanks for hanging in there with me!

Lolli, I think you and Kathy are saying similar things and I believe I am starting to get it. When you said that you waited to give your bf the letter until YOU knew in YOUR heart that you could handle whatever came out of it...well I think THAT is the key. I obviously said alot of what I did in the email to hopefully "provoke" a response in him. So why am I surprised when I get one? Even if it is NOT the one I had hoped for. I think when we finally get to know our own selves well enough that we can say what we need to in order to be true to ourselves, then we are finally on the road to a better place.

Thanks you guys! You're the best!

March 7, 2006
5:47 pm
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lollipop3
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Plz~

Although it seems as though you understand what Kathy and I are saying, I would like to give you another example of apologizing for YOU, or in this case...for me.

Over the past year or more, I have been consumed with guilt for my actions toward my b/f. You may wonder why considering I have come here so many times telling how dishonest, untrustworthy, emotionally unavailable, mentally an verbally abusive he has been. Not to mention everything that we dealt with while he was actively drinking.

The reason I felt so guilty was because when I thought back to last winter and saw how I treated him, it went against the person I wanted to be.

He had just given up drinking and gotten a new job....because I told him he had to or else he would lose me. So he did. He did stop drinking and he did get a job and he gave up all of his "friends". He was working a lot of hours and because it was winter he was also plowing at night. During this time, the car he had was useless in the snow, so he was having to take the train (actually a train and 2 subways) to get to work, most often not knowing if his ride would be waiting for him when he got there. If not, he then had to walk another two miles.

We fought a lot during that time. I yelled at him all the time, complaining that my "needs" were not being met, that we weren't spending enough time together, that I was tired of being alone, etc.etc.

Looking back on it now, I know it was because I was scared. I was scared that he was going to start drinking again and if he wasn't here then I couldn't "control" it. When he was gone, I couldn't monitor him to make sure that he didn't fall off the wagon. So I yelled and fought to control the situation.

When I came to the realization that a lot of our problems were because of ME....I was consumed with guilt. Every time I thought back on that time, I pictured him getting up at 4am and walking to the train station , in the snow, with his big duffle bag of extra clothes. Many times I got up and watched him out the window. The thought of him going through all of that, to keep his job, that I told him he had to get, and me bitching at him at every turn..and trying to keep his sobriety at the same time....kills me every time I think of it. But I didn't want to apologize because of all the things he had done to me. Why should I say sorry....I wouldn't have acted that way if it wasn't for his behavior.

I try not to blame myself for the way I acted because at the time, I really didn't know any better. I did the best I could with what I knew. As they say hindsight is 20/20 and I am trying to forgive myself.

I am getting to the point, I promise......

A couple of weeks ago, when I saw b/f for the first time since we broke up, I told him that I was sorry for the way I treated him. Funny, he didn't even know what I was talking about. I felt so guilty for so long and he didn't even know what I was talking about. Anyway, I explained it to him, much like I just explained it to you. When I was done, he took that opportunity to give me shot....he said: "well, even though that hardened me as a person, I accept your apology." I almost had to laugh....one minute he didn't know what I was talking about, the next minute I had "hardened him as a person". Instead I said nothing, I just let it go and I felt better for it.

Okay, here comes the point......

His comment didn't bother me and I was able to let it go....BECAUSE I wasn't apologizing for him, I was apologizing for ME. His reaction didn't matter. And for the first time, in a long time, I am guilt free. I am becoming the person that I want to be. A person with integrity. A person that I can be proud of. That, to me, is growth.

So, that was a pretty long winded story just to make a point, but I hope it helps.

Love,
Lolli

March 7, 2006
7:25 pm
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elizabeth anne
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I do agree with Lollipop and Kathy G, at one point that to find closure, sometimes we have to do it in a way that is best for us and then let it go. When you truelly feel like you can express all you want to express and expect nothing in return, than you know you are doing it for your own closure.

I do know at some point I will express my forgiveness when I am ready, as it will be for me to move past the bitterness and anger and not about him. At that point, I will realize I am not looking for a response, only looking for closure for myself.

At this point I am still angry with his behavior and sad to say would want a response so early in the NC (a month). I need the time to figure out when I can truelly move on. For me I don/t want to be the doormat that says Ok all is forgiven for your actions. I am not there yet, but hope to be someday, because I do not want to carry this anger thru out my life time. For me it takes time to figure out all my emotions. I want him to realize what he has done to me!! And right now it is not ok.

But I know what is not good for my soul, and that is anger and bitterness. Only right now I need the time to decipher thru how I can rid myself from that. And the only solution for me, is perhaps C and time. So if you don/t know what to do right now, as others have said do nothing, until you really know in your heart how you truelly feel. Not out of guilt and second guessing yourself, but truelly finding that understanding of moving on and accepting the fact that it may be over and finding that forgiveness will help you move on

March 7, 2006
7:35 pm
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lollipop3
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Elizabeth,

Just like I said to plz, I think it is very important that you do what you need to do for yourself and in your own time.

I think it's great that you understand yourself well enough to know what is right for you and that you have the strength to carry that out. Again, I think it shows growth to recognize our limitations and to know when to act and when not to act.

Keep up the good work.

Love,
Lolli

March 7, 2006
7:51 pm
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elizabeth anne
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Thanks Lollipop

It is just very difficult, as we all know to go thru all these emotions, when all we really want is to be with the person we really want to be with.

How sometimes we wish they could just could it thru their heads that we are worth fighting for and make it worth the effort to make it worth it no matter what it takes. IC, an understanding of our wants and needs and trying to understand theirs. If only the communication could have been better. So many what if/s.

It is just so hard to think when you feel you have met someone you have the love and chemistry with that you would do everything possible to make it work. Out of all the relationships you have been thru, sometimes you just know you won/t find that special person, the love of your life, because you know it is him. So many friends of mine never found what we had. So Sad!!!

March 7, 2006
8:04 pm
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readyforachange
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plz....I have two words for you: No Contact. I don't think any further contact with this man is healthy for you. You are right, it's time to move on. The only exception to this would be if you feel you need to apologize for being a little harsh in your first email...but only apologize if you are doing it for yourself, so that you can move on and have closure. I wish you well...let go.

March 7, 2006
8:09 pm
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lollipop3
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Elizabeth,

I couldn't agree more....it is hard. In my own case, although I still love him, I just really needed to come to a place where I accepted him....truely accepted him for who he is. And unfortunately, he is not what I am looking for. I too, wish that things could have been better for us. I wish that he had willing to do the work on himself. But he wasn't and he isn't and I have to accept there is nothing I can do to change that.

I have spoken to him a couple of times in the past week or so. It's almost like it was when we were friends. He called the day before yesterday because he had to go to New York and he was bored on the ride and wanted someone to talk to. I called him tonight because I wanted him to proof read a letter that I had to write for a possible legal issue at work.

As much as I miss some parts of our relationship, I actually like it better this way. I wasn't sure if I would be able to be his friend again because so much damage has been done, but it just seems to be happening that way. I am sad that my "fantasy" never came to fruition, but we really do get along better as friends. We can talk and we can laugh and we can be comfortable. There are no expectations. That is probably why this was our third attempt at a relationship. We just can't seem to get it through our heads that are better suited as friends.

The fact is, as much as I love him, I like him. He is a good person, he was a good friend.... he's just a really bad boyfriend.

My therapist has warned me that he may not feel the same way and may still think there is a chance of reconcilation. To be honest, I don't know how he feels. She may be right. But like he always says (and I hate when he says this)...we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Somehow, I think it's going to be okay.

March 7, 2006
8:15 pm
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elizabeth anne
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Lollipop

Could you ever except just being friends?? Do you think you have the emotionally stability to say we can never be a couple, but perhaps we could be friends again after what you have been thru. I am just curious. Because, I wonder down the road, I would like to be friends, but at this point want something more. Can you emotionally detach your feelings of wanting to more than just friends????

March 7, 2006
8:32 pm
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lollipop3
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Elizabeth,

To be honest, I'm probably pushing my luck thinking that I am stronger than I am. Besides the couple of times I have spoken to him, I have also tried to keep my distance a bit. Like for instance, a few days ago, I saw him outside and he mentioned that he was going to get Chinese food and asked if I wanted anything. I didn't think it was a good idea (for me) so I told him, no thank you.

These days I'm trying to walk a fine line between keeping my distance but not completely alienating him either.

To answer your question , yes...I think at some point I will have detached enough to strickly be friends and nothing more. Again, whether or not he can...I don't know.

I would also like to mention that he and I have been friends for a long time. I don't know your history with your b/f, but as I said, this is our third attempt at a relationship, always maintaining our friendship in between.

The difference for me this time, is that this time....I fell in love with him, which was not the case the first two times. That has certainly made it more difficult for me. Also, this is the longest that we have been in a "relationship", so there was more time to do a lot more damage. Which has also made it difficult for me.

I think the thing that keeps us friends, even after all of this, is as I said earlier....I like him and I've always liked him.

I don't know if I'm making any sense here or not but I hope that I answered your question.

March 7, 2006
8:36 pm
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lollipop3
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"strickly be friends"......ugh....Mrs.Headburg would roll in her grave if she saw that.

I meant "strictly"

March 7, 2006
10:35 pm
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Lolli, thanks for the example of your own situation. That always helps to put it in perspective for me. I can see what you are saying, and I totally agree with it!

I am learning so much here, and you are one of those that have contributed by sharing so much of yourself. I am forever grateful! I know you are working out your own issues, but you help so many other people in the process. So give yourself a big lollipop hug, and tell your inner child it's from plz:) *tee hee*

Love ya girl! Plz~

March 7, 2006
11:18 pm
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thedogsmom
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plz,'
I'm late in reading your letter to your boyfriend but had to read your post when there were 49 responses. This is my first time writing but not reading at this site. I HAVE to say "WOW" after reading your letter! I am going to print it out and pledgerize !! All I have to do is change the "D" to an "M" and I can send it to him tonight. Of course he's sitting right here on the couch playing X-box to avoid talking.
I also just LOVE your nickname! FUNNY! You sound SO much like myself and in the same place at the same time! I too have been in your shoes and the pain has become stronger than the pleasure. I just wanted to thank you for giving me the words to express exactly what I am feeling in a more diplomatic manner! Hope you find all the happiness you deserve with or without him. Please help give me the strength to move on. I am proud of your newly found strength.

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