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I really need advice pls....
February 17, 2000
6:23 am
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les1
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Hi my name is Alison, and i really need advice as if feel i may be co-dependent in relationships but do not understand why. I grew up in a family where my father abused alchol and my mother was very strong although not strong enough to leave him. I came to live in the UK and met my boyfriend. He to drinks alot and is very independent. We split up because he was drinking alot and we were not seeing much of each other and i met another man whom was very good to me, but when my ex rang me up to come and see him i always did.throughtout my relationship with Michael i would always go and see my ex whenever he phoned me and we would talk about getting back together although deep down i did want to because i love him i was also to scared because of the drinking etc that had happened before. Eventually michael could not take it anymore and asked me to move out and i ended up living back with my ex. I was not happy there as i missed michael and felt insecure so i moved into my own place. Now i am still seeing my ex although i love him i am not sure it is good as i am very dependent on him showing he cares and he is very controlling and does not allow me to see michael at all. I feel very guilty for hurting michael and do miss him and still speak to him and he cannot understand. I do not know now whether i really love my boyfriend or am just dependent on him but cannot understand why i am. I cannot stand the thought though of not seeing him again and wish that he would show me he realy cares and also stop being so wild in his ways. please can someone give me advice

February 17, 2000
6:53 am
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hazza
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HI les,
I think you are showing signs of co-dependency on you ex. On the one hand you realise he is not the best influence in your life but you feel unable to cut all contact.
I too found out over the last year that i was very dependent on my boyfriend who also had drink problems and was very controlling. I learned that this was a typical co-dep relationship.

The reason we find it hard to leave these kind of men is that because we are co-dep in nature we believe in an almost fairytale notion of love, that some knight in shining armour will come and make our lives happy. That is our first error! it is really US who should make us happy not some other person.
Okay, so because we have this belief we see extremes of emotion that unheathy people can display(especially people with addiction problems) as being PASSION, they seem to swing from such lows to such highs that our brain thinks " hey this must be LOVE, one minute we are throwing things at each other the next minute making up, this must be my soul mate!" this is our second mistake, we are confusing the fact that these people find self control of their emotions to mean that they are madly in love with us. Then when we meet someone who has more "normal" ways of showing their emotions, this seems boring by comparison.

The other problem is when we get into any relationship, we focus soley on the other person and not on ourselves. This is not such a problem if the other person has respect for you, but most of the time we change our boundaries and allow the other person more and more control. If the other person is a controlling or addicted person by nature, we then run into trouble.

I found myself totally dependent on someone who was binge drinking, being rude to me, not caring about my feelings at all and breaking promises to me. Why? because i was co-dep and didn't see it at the time. Seeing it is the first step that lets you do something about it.

So, suddenly you find that you don't know who you are anymore, you can't live without this person because they tell you everything for so long you have forgotten how to think for yourself. Sometimes when you try to be independent this type of partner will punish you. Verbal,physical and mental abuse is very common in this type of relationship, where you have co-dependency and addiction problems.
So you may find that if you talk to your friends, go to work, disagree with him etc. you are punished by arguments, emotional withdrawral (sulking!) and so on.

You say that your ex does not "allow" you to see you friend Micheal? THIS MAN DOES NOT OWN YOU, please take it from one who has been there, wake up.

HE IS BLACKMAILING YOU.What will happenif you disobey him? He will leave you right?
CALL HIS BLUFF, YOU ARE BETTER OFF WITHOUT HIM. YOU ONLY FEEL THE NEED TO BE WITH HIM BECUASE YOU HAVE CONFUSED HIS SYMPTOMS OF ADDICTION AS BEING PASSION it is not passion it is unhealthy ways of dealing with emotions like jealousy, fear and so on on his part. He trys to contol you so that he doesn't run the risk of rejection.

I finally had enough of my partner treating me like shit, that one time when he came home drunk and high again and started taking it out on me. I flipped and told him his behavior made me sick and i wanted him gone. It really woke him up he has quit drinking and started paying his way, But unless i had stood up to his bullying time and time again like i have been doing he would still be taking me for a ride. Now he knows that i am not making plans for the future at the moment and want to see how things go

HE CAN'T BULLY ME ANY MORE BECAUSE I AM NO LONGER AFRAID OF HIM GOING.

My advice is still. it is not worth it. All the amotional abuse means that deep down i am still scared of my partners anger, I don't always feel comfortable with him because we have had so much past problems. I am so mad at myself for allowing it to go on so long that it left me a changed person with much loss of confidence. If i could do it over again i would have left him the first time he threatened me with us splitting up, just to show that he couldn't push me around. But again and again i would try to soothe the arguments and go along with things to keep him happy so that i got an easier life. I would not phone friends because i knew he would pick an argument about it. Now it is still a daily battle for me to do things i want to do and ignore him if he trys the manipulation again.

Your friend Micheal, may not have the emotional highs and lows of your ex, but i bet he wouldn't stop you going for a night out with friends, or threaten you, or pick you up from work drunk as a skunk like my partner used to do.

You need to look at yourself, if you were a little more confident, then you wouldn't fall prey to the addictive type of man, but worse than that, when you are with this type of man whatever confidence you had soon is taken from you, Its a vicious circle.

This is only my experience which i am assuming might be similar to yours, I could be wrong, but you will know reading my words if any of this applies to you or not. please let me know more about you. What do you for yourself that doesn't involve either of these men? Can you be happy in your own company? Why do you feel the need to keep running back to your ex?
Take care
Peace
Hazza

February 17, 2000
9:18 am
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les1
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Hi Hazza

Thank you for the good advice. Alot of what you said really is very similar to your situation. I often think that i may be dependent on my ex because i have no family here in the uK. I came here to work and planned only to stay for 6mths but i met Mick (my ex) just before i had decided that the UK was not for me and was going to return home. He come home with me for the Xmas and then came back, and i ended up coming back because i love him. Things went well and then because he thought one of his friends tried to come onto me one night at a party he went of on a binge which lasted months really. We would still speak and go out but he would also go out with all his friends, forget arrangements made with me and often be late. Eventually i had enough and started going out with my own friends and that was when i met michael. Mick and i still saw each other as we were living in the same house but he would still do his own thing and at the same time want to know what i was doing. He would say stuff like "im going out (not ask me if i wanted to go with) and then if i went out hed say i was going to come back early and make you dinner" .
I dont really know why when he wanted to get back with me that i would keep going - all i can think of is that i felt sorry for him because he would tell me he was lonely and he loved me, that he was sorry etc.
And i believed him. I am usually very independent and enjoy going out with my girlfriends, relaxing watching telly, going to movies yet with mick i always seem to do what he wants and i know that he is selfish often as he does not consider what i want to do.
He is very jelous of michael aswell and has even said nasty things about him yet whenever i stand upto him or speak to him and say maybe its better if its over then he is either angry and just says "i dont want to see you anymore" and then i feel awful or says please dont go cos i love you.
About enjoying my own company, no i was never very good at being on my own but am learning to become better and to enjoy reading or relaxing on my own which also gives me time to think and become stronger.
I often think that maybe being away from my family makes me feel insecure and that i need to have someone in my life to look after me so to speak.

You sound like you regret staying with your boyfriend. Do you still love him? I understand what you mean by so much has happened as i often get angry about my relationship and angry at myself.
Take care - hope to chat to you soon

February 17, 2000
9:54 am
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hazza
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HI alison,
SO, your story sounds familiar!! You asked if i love my boyfriend? Yes i do, but i realise that unless he still changes a few more things about himself that we may not be compatable Long term. He has grown alot, but he too is still sometimes selfish and angry. I also worry that he won't ever get a job. Time will tell, he started training in one thing and now he is changing to something else, i worry that he will always be planning some career without ever actually starting one! Still, it is a new start for him, so i will see what happens in a couple of months or so? If i think that he is just making excuses by then then I will have to reconsider really, but i don't want to say anything about that yet as we have just made so much headway on the drinking and bullying. He has little self confidence really. He also has back problems which was why he thinks he can't work in the first thing he trained for, so i don't want to jump the gun in case that is true and the second thing works out for him. If he drops this new venture too for some other excuse then, really i will have to tell him that i think it is bullshit and he just doesn't want to work.

I too get quite lonely, but as with you i am working on it. I also have bad agoraphobia which means i am unable to leave the house or even be alone sometimes with out having major panic attacks. This alone makes me very dependent on others, but that is my problem and i can't blame anyone for that. It is something i am working on. But it means i can't really go out alone much at the moment. It makes being alone very isolating, i think if i had been able to go out, drive a car alone and so on, i wouldn't have got into such a deep rut in my relationship though. Luckily i have a good support group i talk with of fellow sufferers so i can talk to people who actually know what this condition is like and don't just think i am weak or stupid because they have been there themselves.

The stuff about him making you dinner when you say you are going out is manipulation. He sounds quite insecure too, you will never be able to make him feel secure, the more you try the more reassurance he will need, it just goes on and on.

You are also very isolated like me,because in your case you have no roots here in the uk. Where do you come from? This is why you get a bit scared when he says he will leave you and that is the control he has over you.
What do you want? and don't say for him to stop his wild ways!!! assume for a moment that he may never change into the man you want him to be, then what? do you want this to go on forever? I know where you are at it is like having 2 people as your boyfriend, the nice one and the nasty one, but you are only in love with the nice one.

I personally do regret alot, i too felt so sorry for him but i know now that is no excuse. These type of people will take take take, they don't realise they are doing it. You can try slowly to change them but i don't know if that is the answer.
There was nothing i could do to stop my partner drinking. He only stopped when he wanted to, and that was because i made it very very clear that he would never seen or hear from me again because of what he had done, i didn't threaten him with losing me, i actually told him to go and told him i never wanted to him again. And i meant it. It was only because this shocked him so much that he changed his ways and because i am a nice person i let him stay. But i won't be manipulated anymore, even if i end up alone and lonely, at least i will have my pride back.

I would say to you, if you do really feel that you can't split with him at the moment then at least don't let him know that, call his bluff. he wont leave you! he is as dependent on you as you are on him, do what you want when you want and if he tries to make you feel guilty then ignore it, let him sulk, let him do the runnings at least then he will start to respect you more, trust me, if you act like you love him but don't mind if he wants to split with you, you will soon see that he can't manipulate you any more, then maybe once you are both a bit more equal you will be able to work on your problems.
But if he is still doing things that go against your own personal principles, like in my case, my boyfriend would drive drunk and i hated that, then you must stand firm .Let him know what is acceptable by you and what isn't. Be very very clear. If you don't like his drinking then make him choose, why sould he have both, you can live without him, and you may well be happier, don't let him think he can act how he likes and still have you.
You have a value. You are worth something. If you make a date with him and he is late, tell him, don't let him make you feel guilty because you are unhappy about it. Tell him, look dude, we arranged a time, phone me if your goona be late, and so on.
To many times we allow them to make us feel guilty for complaining when they are in the wrong.
I now tell him, look its no good laying on a guilt trip, i want and apology, you are way out of order.

You must stand up for yourself if you choose to continue this relationship,
you will have to find the energy to keep on fighting to be respected, more than you would with anyone else, and i can't tell you yet if all that extra work is really worth it! i am not sure, but i would think may be not, maybe if you have other options in your life, they would be alot less heartache in the long run.

Have you tried keeping away from him, to see if your "addiction" to him weakens?

I guess i just know now what its like
Good Luck
"

February 17, 2000
11:32 am
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les1
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Hi Hazza

You know something i did try to stay away from him for a while but then i was not on my own i was with michael however my "addiction" did weaken as i felt secure and happy. Michael was totally the opposite and was very caring, showing his emotions, talking, very unselfish and i really did like him alot, and a few times i was strong and said to mick no, but then he would ring again and say he was lonely, depressed etc and that i did not care which was not true. I did often wonder about him when i was with micheal (which was for 4 months) so it was a while. I would always wonder if i went back to him what it would be like if he was different or changed because him and i did have fun together.
I know i do feel insecure in the uk, im from south africa originally so it is a far distance to go - and i do miss my family alot.
At the moment i am quite confused i think in all my feelings - i miss michael alot as i could really speak to him about my feelings and he would listen and we got on really well, yet there is something about mick which i love but he also makes me angry and sad alot of the time and is not a good listner or very compationate about my feelings - hes mostly always on about his own.
I often think maybe it would be best if i did return home and then maybe i wouldnt feel the need to be so dependent on these men, but i just dont really seem ready. It sounds crazy i know.

February 17, 2000
6:06 pm
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melon
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I agree you may be very co-dependent...My advice is to get out of the relationship with Mick and MAKE YOURSELF HAPPY!! Al-anon or any group like that...or one esp. for children of alcohalics would be important for you..counseling ON YOUR OWN. I fell each woman needs to be as independant as possible . Love is great but if it in anyway is making you unhappy than it's not really love. WHY SHOUDLN'T SOME MAN WORSHIP YOU AND WANT YOU TO BE HAPPY-JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE YOU!!!
Find YOU beofre you lose yourself in someone else's needs/desires and wants. HE (Mick ) won't change unless HE wants to do so. I would say yes..come home. then if yo wind up in another co-dempendent relationship you are at least on your own home turf.
Take care...Books by Melodie Beattie are supposed to excellent on codependncy

February 18, 2000
5:20 am
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hazza
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Hi Alison,
SOme good advice from Melon. I think the reason you are addicted to mick is because of the emotional highs and lows. We co-dep people confuse this with passion.

You need to break away from this if you are to have a healthy relationship. and that means letting go of some of your notions of what love is all about. Micheal sounds much more genuine to me and mick just sounds like an insecure selfish needy man.

Maybe you could try giving yourself a break from them both.
Co-dependent people are never happier than when they are "fixing" some lost soul. See this as a symptom of your personality that you want to "cure" mick.

I think it is a bit like this, Co-dep people don't fall in love with PEOPLE, they fall in love with that persons POTENTIAL as they see it in their own minds. They think that with a bit of time and care this person will blossom into the wonderful person they imagine him to be, and that is the problem. This image of what these people COULD be is just a fantasy. You need to fall in love with someone for what they are here and now, not what they could be if they only had the love of a good woman!

Mick is just using you to reassure him when he feels down, he cannot reassure himself because he has problems so he calls on you. Your co-dep mind thinks great! Being needed = being loved to a co-dep person. This is FALSE, if some one needs you they are being way to dependent on you, they should just want you, not need you. And if you think of this being needed as being loved then you are being codependent, you need to be needed.

The problem is all your self esteem is in someone elses control.
You are happy when needed, someone else must need you for you to be happy, that person could not need you suddenly and your life falls apart.

A healthy person's life does not fall apart if people don't need them, they like people to be independent so that they can enjoy their time together because they want to, not out of desperation.

What i can say is that the more you work on yourself and your co-dep traits, the happier you will be, you will be able to get joy from things other than relationships. Concentrate on you, read up on it and keep talking here, it really helps,
Peace
Hazza

February 18, 2000
5:45 pm
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BROC
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les1,

Just a word if I may. My two cents. There is SO much that doesn't make sense, doesn't it. Why this, and why that? I know. I did it. ALL of it. Questioned the shit out of everything, for over a year now. Tons of one on one therapy, group, hundreds of books. Thousands of dollars for this knowledge, and I am going to give it all to you for free.

Everything Hazza has said is right on the money. They why's, how's, etc. One thing you need to learn is that as much as we are taught that we are ALL different, we really are not. We are creatures of habit. You will do the same shit, over and over until you die. You will end up with the same shitheads in life. They may not comb their hair like Mick, or dress like him, but you turn them upside down and shake them, the exact change will fall out of their pockets. Get my drift. It is so weird, but once you understand this concept, you life, or rather your understanding of it will change, DRAMATICALLY!

Your first post asked, quote:
i really need advice as if feel i may be co-dependent in relationships but do not understand why.
You wanted an answer, right? Ironically, you already had the answer. It was the next sentence:
I grew up in a family where my father abused alchol and my mother was very strong although not strong enough to leave him.
Easy! Remember me speaking of repeating your patterns in life. Well, these patterns you learned started in your childhood. Think back to the shit you went through. Your dad, the dependent (on alcohol), your mom, the enabler, and you, proabably the hero, (these are terms you will learn later) These are roles you play. WE ALL play roles. Anway, you got used to playing your role; you became used to it. And even though it was a pile of shit, you came to accept it as normal. And as sick as it sounds, found you couldn't exist without it. Now this is where most people get thrown off. Most will say, bullshit, I hate it, and even to this day despise that shit. I will never be with a man that drinks. My mom did, and I will not go through that again!!!!!!!!

Well guess what? You ended up with Mick, and oh, by the way, hes like dear old dad.

Get this through your head. IT IS NO COINCIDENCE THAT YOU ENDED UP WITH HIM. Why? Because he is familiar... he is comfortable. I know this sounds fucked up, but it is the absolute truth! 90% of our actions are dictated by our sub-conscious. 90%!!!!!!!!! We are unaware of this. It is our sub-consciuos that "pick up on" these "vibes". We will hone in our "type" of guy or gal like a missle. That is why you picked Mick. It is also the reason you left Michael. Why? Cause he is kind, caring, loving. COnfused yet?

Bottom line. You are USED to the bullshit and chaos you grew up with. Your 10% conscious mind hates it, but the 90% un-conscious loves it. It cannot live without it, because it is the only thing you know. You KNOW NOTHING about real love, or affection, or kindness, or caring, BECAUSE YOU NEVER FUCKING HAD IT!!!!! NEVER! NEITHER DID OR, OR 99% OF THE OTHERS ON THIS SIGHT.

Sorry, it just pisses me off. It sucks. But anyway....

Thats why you left Michael. I don't give a rats ass why you said you really left him, you left because your addiction was calling....calling you HOME! The part that misses Michale is the 10%. If is was the 90%, Mick would get a big fact f-ck you and be history.

Boy I ramble, but I was in your same shoes almost exactly a year ago. It took along time to see how the real world works. I know now, as do many others here! I hope you take heed to these words.

The only way you will change your life is to look in the mirror and start there. IF YOU CAN AFFORD it, therapy is the answer. You MUST find the answers to your issues, and they are there, believe me! When you fix these issues, you life will change 180 degress. The Michaels will be the desireable ones, and the Micks will be left in the dust. Healthy loveing caring and nurtureing relationships will be like a magnet to you. God, when people told me this I said, yeah, right. But it is so true. I can also promise you that if Mick were to change, you wouldn't want him anyway. Thats a promise. Because then he would become like a Michael, boring to your unconscious mind. You would then search out another idiot to hook up with, and then another, then antoher, and then die.

So, get some help. Find out what your issues are and change them. IT IS THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL EVER HAVE A CHANCE AT A REAL LIFE. ONE WORTH REALLY LIVING AND ENJOYING. IT WILL BE LOVING, CARING, AND JUST ALL AROUND GREAT.

I hope you do. I wish you luck, and hoep to see your life change. Again, if you don't do it for you, I promise you it will never change.

Take care!

Broc

February 19, 2000
5:29 am
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winter001
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hi Les1

all this is about as new to me as it is to you, and as old and ingraned. reading what you had to say has helped because the story may be different but the plot is the same. the one thing i did want to add, is that comming home makes no difference. ironicly enough i realised i was in way over my head when i was away from home, things that happend at work resulted in me comming home, against my will because i didn't want to leave the man i thought i loved, but i've been back for about 7months and it dosn't change anyhting, i'm the same person and my tendencies are the same. my family as much as i love them are part of the reason i am the way i am, and me changing is hard for them to accept. my freinds have always known me as someone who has the traits which you and I assosiate with co-dep, they couldn't help me before, they can't help me now. i almost think it would have been easier to find myself there because it was easier to be alone, and there was less people trying to make me into what i am trying to fight. i know England is very different from South Africa, I'm south African, and i did exactly what you did, packed up for what was supposed to be 6 months to see Europe, about 4 years ago. i learnt more about myself in that year than had in the preceding 19 years of my life - because I was alone. it's who we are, like Broc says its in our unconciouse. i wish the solution for you was as easy as comming home. good luck, i know we are both in for some tough times, but i know i've had enough of the emotional chaos my life has been. i have to turn it around. i hope you feel the same way.take care of YOURSELF.

February 19, 2000
10:34 am
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Broc,

I must admit I never liked the harshness of your words in posts on different threads over the last several months. In fact I avoided you.

But...somehow in this last post...you made sense to me. It made me realize that I am still out there...not clear on who I really am. Still hanging onto the fantasy that I have lived all of my life.

It angers me...makes me sad...but will it cause me to finally do something about it?????? You know it takes strength to change thinking that you have lived with for over forty years. Some days I think I have it...others...I hide my head in the sand.

Anyway...Broc...thank you for giving me much food for thought.

Karin

February 19, 2000
2:50 pm
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BROC
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kthomas,

I am sorry if you felt as though I am to harsh. I try not to be. But I look over the last year, and realize had it not been for many here, now mostly gone, I couldn't have done it without some kind words, mixed with reality. After all, I had not ever lived in reality. Sounds as though you are coming around too!?

I felt the same as you, sad, angry. How could this have happened to me? What do you mean I'm codepenednt? What what what what what!!! Jesus Christ, leave me alone!

But you know what? When I cut through that big pile of shit called denial, it all started to make sense. You know the ONE thing that really made it clear to me things had to change?

It was the thought someone here gave me. If I knew so much, and I wans't screwed up, then why was my life a pile of poop? Why? It was that easy. At least for me. That person made PERFECT sense. If I was the great, the mighty, the all knowing, then why was my life crap? Why were all my friends doing really fucked up things to their friends, and each other? Why was I out cheating on my girlfriends? Why had I slept with over 80+ woman? Why did all my girlfriends posses the same jealous, petty, bs? IT WAS ME! It was my pattern. And the anger and sadness was me REALLY knowing all my counselors and such were right. It really hurts to know we are not perfect. That we are broken. That we have been wrong.

But as I look back, I see what was a shell of a young man. And today, I am a man that is on the right path. And if ever I doubt it, I just have to peek over the fence at my old gf (Shannon), my ex-best friend Jim, and the rest of them. Jim is on his third gf after shannon, shannon is still crying in her pillow thinking men are all assholes, and the rest of them are still single, miserable, and lonely just as they were a year ago when they abandon me saying I was a nut for doing this therapy shit. Imagine how that affected me.

But again, I had to go through that to get here. Ironically, they did me the biggest favor anyone has ever done for me. Had they not turned their back on me, I would still be mixed up in that bucket of shit. Its alot like, say, alcoholism. Your not going to stay sober very long if you hang out with your old drinking buddies at the bar!

SO, push on kthomas, and the rest. The rewards are so fucking awesome!

Broc-

PS - And I want you all to remember I do care. I know what it was like, and want to be of help, not hurt.

February 19, 2000
3:00 pm
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BROC
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Winter,

Your post was great. Reminds me of a book I read, although I can't remember the name just now.

But, it was on the real facts of life, and was along the lines of this...... "Wherever YOU go, there YOU are." Meaning, you can move anywhere you want, change your hair color, win the lottery, marry into millions, whatever!

IT WON'T MAKE TWO SHITS BECAUSE YOU ARE, AND WILL FOREVER BE YOU! AND WHEN YOU GET THAT FOLKS, YOU WILL HAVE OPENED THE DOOR TO THE PATH THAT WILL BRING YOU A NEW LIFE LIKE YOU NEVER EVER THOUGHT POSSIBLE!

YOU WILL ALWAYS BE YOU, THAT IS A CONCRETE FACT. THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN CHANGE YOU IS YOU. AND CONVERSELY, YOU WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER CHANGE ANYONE ELSE. NEVER NEVER NEVER. SO FOR THOSE THAT ARE TRYING. FOR THOSE THAT THINK "MY LOVE WILL TAME THIS BAD BOY, OR ALCHOOLIC" OR WHATEVER, YOUR IN FANSTASY LAND MY FRIENDS! OPEN THOSE EYES, ADMIT YOU AREN'T PERFECT, ADMIT THAT YOU NEED HELP TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE, AND GET SOME THERPAY. FIND OUT WHAT INSIDE OF YOU MAKES YOU DO THE THINGS YOU DO. I HAVE PRECHED THIS OVER AND OVER, ONLY BECAUSE IT WORKS! YOU FIGURE OUT YOU, WHATS IN THAT HEAD OF YOURS, AND THEN CHANGE THOSE OLD DYSFUNCTIONAL THOUGHTS INTO HEALTHER ONES, WHICH WILL CHANGE YOUR BEHAVIORS, WHICH WILL AGAIN, GIVE YOU A LIFE LIKE YOU NEVER THOUGHT POSSIBLE! JUST YOU WANTING TO "MAKE THE CHANGE", OR SAYING YOU WILL CHANGE, WILL NOT WORK. YOU MUST GET SOME THERPAY FROM SOMEONE WHO REALLY KNOWS HOW TO DIG. THAT PERSON WILL HELP GUIDE YOU TO YOUR OWN TRUTH. YOU WON'T FIND IT ON YOUR OWN. YOU ARE NOT INTELECTUALLY SMART ENOUGH. THATS WHY THERE ARE PROFESSIONALS. THEY KNOW. SO USE ONE.

LOVE AND PEACE,

BROC

February 19, 2000
5:40 pm
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Neelie
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I work with men who have drinking problems. Believe me when I say they wil not stop until they ar4 ready. Leaving them is the best medicine. You had an alcoholic father so it is natural you are attracted to an alcoholic. Try to get some ACOA counseling. it will really open your eyes.... god luck!

February 20, 2000
4:50 pm
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Thanks Neelie,
It is good for us here to hear about alcoholics from someone who works with them, could you tell us more?

Broc, you are rude, brash and loud - just how i imagine americans!!! in my strange little mind! BUT< I LOVE YOUR STYLE! dont ever change!!!! Karin, its normal for you to be a little worried that your co-dep is greater than you thought, i think it is because there is the possibility that your hubby could come back soon, but i think you are just doing the "what if?" game. What if it happens again etc... I think you have grown so much that you will be okay whatever, you will make some of the same old mistakes again, but your aware of them now, you will see yourself doing it , more and more you will be able to stop repeating the patterns, eg stand up to guilt trips, say what you want before you get so mad!!, press home your boundaries etc. Try to relax, you are on holiday now arn/t you??? Peace YHazz

February 20, 2000
6:34 pm
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KTHOMAS
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Thanks again Hazza!

You are a gem!

February 21, 2000
3:50 pm
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BROC
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hazza,

Loud, I agree. But rude. Really? I do try and show compassion. I still need it sometimes myself. Maybe I just don't come across as caring. Believe me, if you knew me, you would see that I am so caring its, well, what makes me codependet?!! hee he

peace.

broc

February 21, 2000
4:04 pm
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site coordinator
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BROC,

I think it comes from your strong personal experiences...you've given people some good first hand stories, and have good advice.

; )

- SC

February 23, 2000
4:35 am
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hazza
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Hey Broc,
i meant rude in your use of language and your outspoken ness, i didn't mean you are rude to other people.

I think you are one of the most caring people here, that is why you take the time to reply to people.

Peace
Hazza

February 29, 2000
9:24 am
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ALISON
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February 29, 2000
9:43 am
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ALISON
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Hi there,

This is les1 (which was my name used when i entered the site).
Winter are you reading this cos i think our situations are very much the same and i read Brocs advice which i must say really made me think.

So much has happened since i last wrote on this site. Mick and i have still seen each other and actually had a normal week last week where he came round for dinner, picked me up and i went to him that was until sat night when i had told him i was going to girlfriends for a dinner and would ring him later if i was home early but i ended up falling asleep at my girlfriends house. Because he couldnt get me on my moble he phoned my house and my flatmate told him i was not there (this was 130am) he still didnt believe her so he came round and banged on teh door and then smashed the window.
I have spoken to him since and he says he is sorry but he did it because he does not trust me and thought i was staying over at michal. I have spoken to him and told him that i was not there, told him michael and i are only friends and i dont see him anymore (we sometimes talk on the phone just to say hello and see how each other are) but mick has now said he does not think we should see each other anymore as he cant trust me. I felt the guilty one and maybe i am for not phoning him on sat night but i didnt plan to fall asleep at Eileen. I have apologised but he just says i need time. Now i feel like history is repeating itself and i will watch him go off drink, meet other girls and then return again maybe and i now have the chance to return to south africa and work there for a while and see if i do want to come back to the UK but something inside me keeps saying not yet that i should stay here and see, only i dont know if i can take anymore and wish he would just say okay we really try or thats it. Im not really even sure if i do want this to work cos the way he speaks to me i can tell he doesnt respect me anymore.

Help please give me some advice!!!!!!

February 29, 2000
1:51 pm
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BROC
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Alison, les1, ???

How do I say this. Hmmmmmm.

Leave. There, its said.

I am always amazed at what goes on in this site. The denial. Jesus the denial is so think its hard to breath.

I truly feel sorry for you, and those in your shoes. Why you can't "see" whats happening is amazing, but I do understand. Plain ol' simple denial.

Let me tell you a few more facts of life.

1. Mick is Mick. HE WILL NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER
NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER
NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER
NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER INFINITY TIMES A MILLION CHANGE. THIS IS YOUR CORE PROBLEM. THIS IS THE DENIAL. AND SO LONG AS YOU STAY HERE, THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE CAN SAY, ESPECIALLY ME, THAT WILL GET YOU TO LOOK AT THIS DIFFERENTLY. I KNOW I CAN NOT CHANGE ANYONE. THEIR BEHAVIOR, BELIEFS, ETC. AND SO IT GOES WITH YOURS.

2. You can't leave because you are a love addict. You HAVE to be in a relationship to feel whole. Any one that had an ounce of healthness to them would have left like a lightening bolt long ago.

3. Mick doesn't trust you because he doesn't trust himself. Another FACT about humans. What we hate in others is merely a reflection of what we hate about OURSEVLES. He lies, cheats, manipulates. For fucks sake, take this from a guy that did it. I used to get pissy at my girlfriends just like mick, although i never came to their house or broke anything. the reason I got mad was because their actions resembled mine. When I was cheating, I was at a womans house at 1 am, not at a friends as I said I was. So when she did it to me, I would think the worse cause I did it. I would find out that she was in fact at a friends house, then all would be fine. My ex, like you, was predicttable. A love addict as well. She would never cheat on me as she didn't want to do ANYTHING to fuck things up. It was this issue of codependency in her that made her the PEFECT girlfriend for someone like me, a love avoidant/sex addict. Just like Mick.

4. Fact. If there is no trust, there never will be. You won't rebuild it, overcome it. That shit only happens in Hollywood. The issue of trust is much deeper than anyone ever cares to study. Trust comes from within. Thats just the way it is. When we love ourselves, we trust ourselves. THEN AND ONLY THEN CAN WE LOVE AND THEN TRUST ANOTHER.

5. You are both codependent. Fact. And until you get some help and fix your issues, and Mick does his, then you are screwed.

6. Last note on this subject. How do I say this? Best method is the direct method I guess. You and Mick are not going to make it. History, issues, you name it. I think deep down you know this too. But the fear is so intense you are willing to do ANYTHING to cling on to some random thread of hope. Even if that hope is a sword that will slice you to pieces.

Remember this. If nothing changes, nothing changes.

If you would only take 10% of the energy you give in trying to shove the square peg into the round hole you would realize all the amazing possibilites you have within your grasp.

But, then again, when your in the muck, its so hard to see, and even harder to do.

I will say a prayer for you.

Hope you are well.

Broc-
Broc-

February 29, 2000
4:59 pm
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glassgrl
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Broc,

Tell me more about this? What is the definition of a love avoidant/sex addict?

March 1, 2000
12:52 am
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hiya alison

you feel like what ever it takes you just have to make it work don't you. like those times when he is wonderfull are too good to walk away from, like when you went out to dinner, and you really do believe he will see your worth one day and understand that everything that he needs in life he has in you.- sometimes we even fool ourselves that the signs are there that they are comming round- your "love" for him controls you and to be perfectly honest nothing else really matters.

Mick is not going to leave you, you've got to be the one to break the ties, otherwise inevitably your gonna feel like a victim, like you always have in this relationship!

i feel Broc's frustration in his words, because i understand now that all i can do is tell you what i believe, but something has to hit that switch in your mind. i was actualy debilitated by how i felt for this guy, i didnt have any controle, i knew that if he asked me to something, i would do it.

it is an addiction and that is as simple as that. addictions are never healthy. part of me mourns the empty space now, the loss of that overwhelming emotion that i completely defined myself by - but now i feel like ihave space to think in my head again, space to feel things other than for him. i don't want to cry hystericaly and laugh raucosly when i get off the phone from him. the best way for me to explaine is that he dosn't rock my equilibrium anymore. i don't interpret his actions as mine, or a result of my behaviour anymore. i bet you were shattered with Mick's behaviour, when you should have been angry for the sheer disrespect he showed you.

i "loved" him more than life itself, because he was that skrewed up that he needed me and i believed that if i was dedicted enough and accepting enough and loving enough, he would get better. i didn't even know that was why i felt the way i felt untill broc and hazza pointed it out. He is sick, reality, so am I so are you, and this is an illness were you can only cure yourself, you can't help him.

i know that probably no one has ever made you feel the way he makes you feel on those rare occasions but he is never going to make you happy. i ache for you, because i so badly wanted to believe it could work, i sacrificed my soul to make it work. get out, not just physicaly, the need for you to beat this mentaly is way more important. because he could be 10000 miles away and he is still going to be your adiction and he is still going to be tearing at you.

read anything you can that is relivant, read other postings, maybe read mine "terrified to see my emotions...."about a week ago, the advice i got was wonderfull, and that was were i came to understand.

i do believe that knowing this is bad and physicaly getting away is a good start, but the understanding is vital because then you can fight the addiction. in seconds i went from adicted to caring about him out of concerne and us being freinds, but the stranglehold is gone. now i can start fixing myself.

keep talking to us, maybe you've already read something that has triggerd that switch, i hope so.

TRuth is i'm scared as hell because i was hanging on to that skrewed up relationship because i was scared that i would never find anything better. i get lonely and i'm too proud and independent - too scared, to try again. thank god! because there is the most wonderfull peace in aloneness, but you have to get past all the bull and go "there" because you want to. i'm still scared because as much as i enjoy my own company i know that i now want both. i know that unless it's a healthy relationship I don't want it, and i'm a long way off that. at least now i have myself. good luck. don't think your being selfish or difficult when you make requests or set standards, you have a right to be treated well, but people will treat you, like you treat yourself.

take care

March 1, 2000
4:17 am
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Thank you Broc for the really good advice, I have already become aware that i have a problem and am going to get help, actually reading all the advice here is really helpful and supportive and i realise i am not going mad. I know he is manipulating me - last night he actually phoned me at 11;30 after he had left the pub and gone home and asked me to come over to him and when i said no said to me i wouldnt because i didnt care and thought he was not good enough for me and called me a snob - i just stuck to my word and said well if that is what you think i know myself better i am worth more than being treated like a peice of shit.

I have organized myself a job back home and will be returning there shortly purely becuase i feel the lifestyle there is better, i have more independence there (i have my own car, house and friends), although i doubt it occassionaly because my family, that being my mom and dad as she is still so dependent on him and i dont want her to use me as she used to but i will be strong against that to. Im still pondering on the idea but think maybe that will be a good move for me and i know i will need to be strong whether i stay in the uk or return home.
I now know mick will never change and as much as i would like to help him and feel that by smothering him with love, care etc he would not return it in the same way and i will always feel empty. It is really just very hard i guess because i do love him/ or maybe think that i do.

Winter, thanx for the good advice also i will read your thread after this. Just from someone who has been there let me know if you think im making a mistake by coming home as i feel i have had enough here but dont want to run!!!!!!!

March 2, 2000
2:41 pm
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BROC
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Wholly shit. Wholly shit. Wholly shit! Hazza, Janes, the rest of you! Wholly shit. I fell out of my chair! Did you guys read the last posting of winter001. It made me cry. Serisouly! She got it!!!!! Yahoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

les 1, re-read her posting one hundred times. that is it, that is it, that is it!

Bravo winter!

B-

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