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I need to know!
April 13, 2001
8:38 pm
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wondering
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O.K... I really don't want to post about this, but it's something that has been bothering me for awhile.
I am wondering if it is considered a form of sexual abuse if a person's mother washed them in their private areas (very often) until the age of 12. I'll paint the picture.
My mother had me lay infront of the of the bathroom, several times a week, with me legs separated on the door frame... where she would wash me with a cloth and her fingers. I remember that it made me feel dirty, shamful and gross, but she did it so often that I learned to accept it, because I thought "she's my mom, she must know what is best for me".

I don't know...someone told me that it wasn't abuse because it was done in the open, for the whole family to see and that sexual abuse usually takes place in private, but I don't know if I agree with that because she did the same to my other sisters all in the open. I know that it did have an effect on me, in regards to my feelings about my sexuality, but I can't figure out what it was... it's not normal to do that to a child from day 1 to the age of 12...is it?

April 13, 2001
8:56 pm
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wondering
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Oops, I posted twice...sorry

April 13, 2001
9:57 pm
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Alena
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Okay, I'm not a psychologist, or a counselor, just a woman, and a mom.

NO.NO.NO.......I can't say it loud enough and often enough. In my opinion, it is not normal. It is wrong. It is abuse. I don't care how many sisters she did this to, this is WRONG.The fact that she did it to all of you is simply because you were all children, you trusted here and she was in control. YOU have no blame in this.
You need to see someone for even just a short while to let them sort it out for you.
I can imagine that it has affected you. I can imagine how you feel. Torn between your love and respect and TRUST of your mom and "what the heck is this all about..is it wrong, heck, it's my mom!!"
I don't care what your mother's excuse was, there IS NO excuse. It IS abuse. The worst kind.....a mother to a child.
Please go a step further with your coming out with this information. I'm sure many bright people on this list will give you some good advice, but please take this seriously and go see someone. Maternal sexual abuse can be life altering, and it doesn't always rear it's ugly head until your whole life is out of control and your shaking your head wondering why.

April 13, 2001
11:33 pm
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counslr336
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At what age do you consider "day one"?Or at what age do you remember "day one"? What is your age at the present,and what happened after the age of twelve? You need to look back into how your mother was raised up and how she was treated and thought about body cleaness. I know it may sound silly to you but I think that this is something that needs looking into on your part. But if you think taht it was some form of abuse, by all means, get some professional help.

April 13, 2001
11:57 pm
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Ladeska
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Sweetheart....I know this hard for you to even put this question out there and I commend you for asking...answering your question here - I don't know how to say this without being really blunt, but I figure you'd appreciate that - so here goes....YES, it's abuse. What on earth could she even come up with as an excuse for this????? I am so sorry sweetie. I'm sure this has had an effect on you. Obviously she had problems herself that probably stemmed from sexual abuse in her own life. Mothers often identify with their daughters and transfer their feelings off onto them.

I can't even believe that anyone would tell you this wasn't abuse or that you should consider how they were raised. This goes wayyyy past just being concerne about whether you're clean or not and to do it in front of the whole family??? EXCUSE ME?????? I am horrified that you and your sister had to endure this. But...it doesn't surprise me. I've heard it all and experienced many things myself with my own abuse. So, I very well know....where all this comes from. Sometimes, I wish I didn't. But, I just want to affirm you, wish I could give you a big, huge hug right now. You're not dirty, sweetheart. Not at all.

No, she didn't know what was best for you, but now - you need to start learning how to parent yourself, how to begin to "feel" what happened back there and to deeply understand - it wasn't about you...but, it was done - unto you. What she did was criminal. It really was.

You're a precious gift to this world and unfortunately sometimes - people who are the closest to us - don't like bright lights...they don't like innocence and they set out to destroy it. But, you know what? That tiny candle that you have going in your being - will overcome whatever darkness. It's just a fact. You being here - speaks volumes to yourself and to the rest of the world. Even if it is a small little voice....you're still saying...NO MORE.

It's a beginning....beginnings are important - they change everything - forever. Whatever twisted place your mother came from - stops here with you. The minute you start your healing - which is now - everything is changed.

I welcome you to this part of your life and just want to mark it for you because there will come a day when you'll look back and say - I've come sooo far and it started "here". (smiles)

I know you're shaky about this and that's okay....even when we're shaky -we can still move mountains. You just need to surround yourself with people who understand this and who can affirm you, support you, love you and stand by you. Those people are out there. You are not alone, not at all.

So glad you were "this brave". I see spirit in you and that's good....very, very good. Please write back if you feel comfortable doing so.. And have you ever had any counseling about this?

April 14, 2001
12:29 am
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grass
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I feel sick to my stomache ready this...something deep inside of me wsa saying yes it is abuse another is no I love my mother, she loves me, if she even knew that I was thinking of her treating me in a sexually abusive way she would shoot herself in her head.

I have a twin sister and two other older sisters. She did it to all of us. Some time last year (when I realized all my family stuff) one of my older sisters read a journal in my apt. she read the part that I wrote when I first started to ponder this. She got furious with me, telling me that me even considering mom sexually abusing us was wrong and not to say anything to anyone. I almost threw up. Most of the time I put it out of my head, but every now and then it comes up and it's hard b/c I don't know where I stand in all of it. I don't know what I believe.

counslr336,
you ask "at what age do you remember "day one"?" young, very young, I can't remember much of my childhood, b/c I was always sick with migranes, but the earliest that I can remeber my mom doing that, well maybe 6 or 7 but I know that it started before then. My age at the present is 20. "And what happened after the age of 12" I'm not sure what you mean to that...in relation to what? did my mom do anyting else you mean? or how did it affect my sexuality? Can you expand on that?

I'm not sure how my mom views cleansiness, I know that she was always cleaning, always, the house, everything, she was one of the most sanitary pl. I have ever met. We could never do anything unless the house was spotless. I know that my mom has experienced some horrific things, but she told me that she was never sexually abused. I don't think I beleive her. b/c 2 years ago when I told her that I was raped by a complete stranger in another country, she said how could you do that? she's messed up, she's told me about demons in her and stuff. wow I am just rambling.

I have been seeing a counselor 2 years now, for the rape and we have talked about the thing with my mom, I can never let myself believe it, I always think "well maybe my counsellor is wrong in this area". Anyway... whenever I think of this I feel a bunch of danger signs go off in side of me and I feel sick...what is wrong with this world?

April 14, 2001
12:52 am
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grass
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k, I can't sleep it is 2:00am. I just keep thinking about stuff...like times when it hurt (I don't think she ever put her fingers up), but it would often sting when she did what she did. I would tell her "mommy it hurts, it feels like it is burning me". She replied that I had fire down there and that she was the fireman washing out the fire. I would fight back tears, didn't want to show that it hurt me, never did any good to do so. Always a fight betwee love, hate and loyalty is what keeps the two seperated.

I can remember that my dad did it twice, b/c my mom was away and she asked him to. Talk about humiliation, my dad seeing that part of me.
(I'm just glad that I didn't turn into a lesbian after all of this... although when I was 10 I had an older friend who also abused me...man...she was gross...she liked to use sticks..anyway you probably didn't want to know that) urrrgggg!!!

April 14, 2001
1:09 am
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grass
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Oh s**t, O.k here is the deal. I've been on here as grass b/c there is a side of me that wants to help pl. b/c. but there is another side of me that needs help just as much as the one I am helping. I tend to put myself in two seperate compartments: one that has it all together and another that is desperately seeking for answers. If anyone that has been where I have been they would understand what I just said. I am really confused about my mother stuff and I put it in anothe identity, another life time, hence another name.

So now I have finally admitted to myself that I still have a long ways to go. I have received healing for many things, except for what has happended in my family. grrrr I hate this, I want to keep going as if I no longer carry hurts... I'm also terrifyied for some reason that someone will find out who I am and ahhh!

April 14, 2001
1:10 am
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Ladeska
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Grass...I had no idea this was you, sweetheart. I'm soo sorry. Well, I can assure you - this was abuse - all the way around. No doubt about it. And yes, I know it's hard to really look at it. Your mom has an excessive compulsive disorder among other things. Search it out on the web, there's tons of information about it. Basically, they have to always clean or they feel - out of control. It's really very common with people who have been abused, specifically - sexual abuse. And yes, she would tell you - nothing happened to her in that area because it is obvious she wouldn't face it if it had. She's been too busy - attaching it to you girls. And to have your Dad do it, too - is just horrific.

And, it's very common for the siblings to go off on you, too. They can't let the ghost out of Pandora's Box and you'd damned well better not let it out either. Ah yes...the bitter web of denial...and thus you get abused again for opening your mouth!!! I am sooo familiar with "that one"! I basically have no family on either side because I dared to talk. Bummer. Can't choose who you were born to, but you can darned well pick who you associate with and claim as family when you're an adult and I've done - precisely that.

No, there is nothing wrong with you at all in any of this. You were definitely victimized and you need to see it for exactly what it is. It's abuse - no doubt about it.

This world has alot of sick people in it. Alot of people that have had something very ugly touch them and they repeat the cycle. Generational sin - that's exactly what it is. And the deal is - nothing but the blood of Christ can stop it. It's a death that just keeps on going, keeps on claiming victims until someone in the family line brings everything out into the light and says....it "stops" with me.

You're very brave.....and you are going to need to stay very close to the Lord while you weed your way through this. He's a most tender, most awesome "nurse" in this dept. Have seen Him do some very awesome healing and miracles. Believe me, He is very capable of tending to you in this way.

I'm sure your counselor has told you this was abuse. You need to continue your counseling and know that you are on the right track here. It's very hard to come out of all the conditioning, to face the rejection by your sister and to face yourself in all of this. I know you're scared, but there is no where to go but up here. God not only wants to deliver and heal you - He will, just hang on to a sliver of His garment and He will do just that. I pray for your peace tonight....for a faith that defies reasoning. You're not a prisoner here. The door is open and God will see you through this. Thank you for sharing this. You're young and you have every reason in the world to hope for a very bright future. I know that you will be someone who, after your own healing, will be a most tender and yet wise heart in helping others. I see that in you already. Treat yourself well in all of this. Take care of you. You're waking up from a horrible nightmare and understanding it will help you to know that the growling monster in the closet is really a very small mouse who would want you to continue to be brainwashed by many things. It's time the captive goes free, right? And free you shall be.

April 14, 2001
1:40 am
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grass
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Ladeska,
I'm going to look at excessive compulsive disorder, I haven't covered that yet in my psyc. courses. if you read above your last posting you will see why you did't know it was me.
Thank-you, I really sense your discerning spirit, maybe b/c I have a little of it myself.
I've been putting this area off for too long...it's time to enter it and all of it's worms (best word I can use to describe it), but I konw that in order to do it i am going to need support and i will never ever openly discuss this with anyone of my friends. (sigh) You heal in one area, let the HS fill and and then your eyes are so widely opened up to another area that needs to be washed clean and filled. Well, on the positive side- I am going to get to a point at a young age that most pl. never do in their life. Truth and wholeness. I am excited to see where God is going to bring me (embrace the pain for one knows that there is always calm after the storm):)

April 14, 2001
11:00 am
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Ladeska
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Grass...(smile) yeah I read that post last night right after I responded to you. I sure admire you courage...and yes, you do have the gift of discernment. This life touches alot of us in horrible ways and it does that on both sides of the fence. None of us deserve it and it just happens. But, it's how we run with the ball that matters....where the rubber meets the road and all that. You could go about this alot of different ways - but with the help of the Holy Spirit - you don't just get the gaps in the dam plugged - they completely grow together. You become like a grafted branch, which is stronger than the original one. You're listening to the Lord, I can see that and...you have a heart that hungers after truth. You're right - you will get to a point that alot of people don't get to. I shudder sometimes when I work with peope because I see sooo much damage and I also see how reluctant they are to climb out of their hole, even if it is poisoning them. It's the only security they have ever known...hiding. I know what the family scene is about, too. It's tough. But, you have to do what's right for you. Please stay in touch here. I want to watch you grow. (smile)

April 14, 2001
5:56 pm
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grass
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I will keep in touch, b/c I really feel as if God has led me here. It's been refreshing at times and other times I thinking "uh oh, there's a pain, hmmm think I need healing there". I think that everyone (mostly :)) here are beautiful even in all of their hurt... the hurting, the hurt, helping the heal the huring, the hurt...like a plant grows towards the sun, leaning...we are leaning into each other, saying I want to grow, I need to grow, I am not happy when I am stunted so please help me lift the cloud that is on tip of me blocking the rays of the sun.
I feel something from you, it's hmmm...not sure, but I almost feel my spirit in harmony with yours. Does that make sense? I'm not one to just say that without a reason. Have a good one

April 14, 2001
10:31 pm
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Sal
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grass, I agree whole heartedly with Ladeska. I'm very impressed that you are not content to stay shriveled and little, but are courageous enough to LOOK at the hurt, "face the roar." It is like the proverbial onion, you get that one layer off, have a brief sense of relief, then realize there's another layer right beneath. It's tiring to continue to peel and peel and peel, but the thing I'm learning right now, is that I am not peeling to get to some chocolatey center, some perfect me. The peeling, the process, IS THE GOAL. Like Bagger Vance said, "The game can't be won, only played." Accepting that the process IS the goal has been hard, but it has given me a lot of peace. So keep peeling, girl! You grow, grass!

April 16, 2001
1:58 am
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grass
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Yes! you see it! The process is the goal and what a process it is. It's funny...although I have had alot of pain, I would never go back and change a thing, even if it meant experiencing and feeling again. Not b/c it was pleasant, but b/c of what I learned through them, who I became...from a weak one to a strong one. I wish that everyone could see that what happens to them, no matter how horrific, it doesn't have to be debilitating for the rest of their lives...you can't control what others do to you, but you can control how you deal with it.

Thank-you for your kind words, they will carry me to tomorrow. Tomorrow I see my counsellor and I am going to dive deep into the stuff with my mother (sigh) 🙂

April 16, 2001
12:03 pm
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Ladeska
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Grass....yes, little missy, I feel quite the connection with you, too. (smiles) Have adopted you, just so you know. Figured I'd better tell you that. (chuckle) You really make me smile with the balance that you have. Just further evidence to me of the Holy Spirit swirling around in your life. Wow, what a difference when someone has the Lord....is amazing to me....the difference. I shouldn't be shocked after so many years of doing this, but I'm still in awe of it.

Just don't try to go too fast, sweetheart. Pace yourself, listen to God on this one. Don't get antsy.....you'll learn something or a layer will peel back and you need to realize that alot goes into that. There's classroom time where your head "learns" and then there's "heart time" where you feel it - connect the dot and then there's the body time - when it receives all this and reacts to it positively or negatively. And yes, as Sal says - it's very much a process whereby we are "arriving" every day. It's how we handle the present moment that matters.....most. It is here that we truly learn what "gracefulness" is about. It's not about reaching forward to arrive at some perfected place, it's about embracing our humaness and understanding how to truly dance with a dignity and a grace that is made up of the movement itself....not a picture of us standing somewhere frozen as a statue - as if up on a stage accepting some trophy and getting applause for it. That's so hollow.....and God doesn't want that for us. He wants us to learn how to be "present in the moment". To be present with ourselves, to really be there when we are with people we love and to be in touch....with life....as we are "living" it.

Ego teaches us about.....the "being on stage" thing. But all that's about is our feeling of being disconnected from God and our power source. Our flesh pulls at us to be a slave to that, to feed it - but it forever growls with hunger in our bellies. Always demanding more and more from us, with higher and higher stakes. Run faster, run harder, do more, get more.....

Our spirit sits inside us and weeps when we do that because we are becoming more and more malnourished and less and less satisfied with anything. It's about "the dance"...... About closing our eyes and dancing...... even through the brutally hard stuff - knowing that we have wings to overcome and overcome - we will......especially when we don't fight fire with fire anymore. When we let go of the fist and open ourselves to the river.....then.....we become an instrument....a hollow reed that makes music.....a lazer beam that is exact and precise with it's gifting.....

Christ came that you might "know" this intimately....that you might live it. That you might experience "rebirth" every passing moment with every breath you breathe and exhale. You are a woman after God's own heart......and He will walk with you in all you go through on this journey.... In and through it all - you will see more and more of a reflection in the mirror of one who is willing to know what is beyond this flesh of ours....what is beyond the poisonous decay of what is hurled at us....what is beyond our own dying. There is much.....beyond that. So eyes up, shoulders back, dancing shoes on, kleenexes handy and a punching bag in the corner.... When the river starts flowing here....expect log jams, cascading rocks, beaver dams, and serene places where we experience a peace that we didn't know was possible... It's not all about pain....it's also about "blooming". (hugs)

April 16, 2001
11:40 pm
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grass
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:)...is all I can say right now.

April 17, 2001
11:21 am
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Ladeska
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'kay... (smile)

April 18, 2001
6:16 pm
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salna
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Hi
Yes it was abuse. How did it stop did you tell her you were old enough to bath yourself. Did you think that you were old enough to bath yourself? Depending on your answer. You would no deep within what it is. I no that you might be confuse and sacred as well as waiting to protect your mother. But you need to come out of your denial. and starting dealing with this head on the sooner the better for you. Be Strong you have survive and will continue to.

April 18, 2001
7:53 pm
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Kimberly Anne
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Hello everyone:)

I believe i was sexually abused but have no memory of anything, sounds odd huhn? My mom was abused every way possible and she and my dad abused me as well, emotionally and physically, its just the sexual part i can't recall.

I am in the midst of ptsd and i am getting weird stuff but nothing makes sense to me. I can't sleep at night and I feel somewhat flighty or moody.
I am slowly getting off paxil so that could be it.

I really want memories so i can heal and deal with it. Its like someone came in and robbed my house and all the evidence is there, but the theif got away?

Can anyone relate to this?

Thanks for listening,
Kimberly

April 18, 2001
11:36 pm
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grass
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Umm...I can't remember what stopped it. My childhood is quite foggy. It wasn't that she would bath me, she made me lie on that floor and that was the only part of me that she would wash, the rest I did myself in the tub. I knew that I was old enough to do it, as far back as I can remember. I remember thinking "why can't I do this, I dont' like mom seeing this part of me".
I'm still not sure what stopped it, puperty maybe. (sigh).

Yeah, I went to my counsellor two days ago and I said "you are right it was abuse, but I still can't let myself see it, accept it". She said that she understood, b/c she was abused as a child and that she fought it, until it came out one day...she said that I too am going to face it head on. And in the first time in 2 years of couselling I said "I would like you to help me with this, help me see it". It felt like a big step.

I am really scared and this is going to be hard b/c I have a dissociative disorder (not MPD), it makes it hard to face feelings. But I really want to deal with this and the rape, b/c I am entering into a relationship with a very special guy and I don't want to be freeking out on him all the time. 🙂

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