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I N S T R U C T I O N S F O R L I F E
March 27, 2000
5:03 pm
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BROC
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Janes,

I am fine. Gettin' away from the other threads....to much chaos.

It is sunny here, not NM, but close. Still doing therapy, and am going to a workshop tonight.

Life is weird, isn't it. When it rains, it pours. I am glad though that I have done the work I have. Life is so much easier to handle.... getting out of the denial, seeing life as it truley is, boy, what a difference!

I am going to just chat with you and maybe a few others from here on out. I figure I had to learn and pay on my own, and since there are others here who figured out short-cuts, I am out of my league. Now what I mean. I will let them help those that ask. I'm just going to be a spectator.

I am glad your still here. Nice to talk to you...someone on the same page if you know what I mean.

Sorry to hear about the fleet. Car troubles are a huge pain in the butt.

How are you otherwise? Your hubby? Daughter?

YOU?

Hugs,
B-

March 28, 2000
6:20 am
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hazza
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How kind of you broc to "let them help those that ask" !!!!! Why can you not disagree with someone without becoming disrespectful to them!! SIGH

Please lets stop this nonsense, I accept that you feel in someway superior and further down the road than some of us here, that is just a matter of opinion, but please stop with the snide remarks in posts, if you really are over it then LET IT GO, you don't need to keep making these little comments about third parties in your posts, it is rude and immature, either argue the points you want to directly or LET IT GO!!! but lets please try to keep friendly here, and drop the bitchiness!!!
Peace
Hazza

March 28, 2000
8:46 am
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janes
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Thanks..but I am still a few hundred pages back.. I have discovered over the past few thousand years (feels like) that I just can't take other peoples decisions badly if those decisions are contrary to my own opinions of what they "should" do.

Did you find when you had gotten past the denial and changed some of your life that you "missed"(for want of a more definitive word) the ups and downs or "drama" of the former life? My 20 year old has always been a"drama queen" I go her the Beatte book.. she's reading it too. Having to help her a bit right now as she got fired from her job. But she's getting an A in her psych class and has gotten a counseling appt. Hubby still feeling a bit "down " as he is not working and I have two jobs. When he is done with this semester tho'--one class and he'll graduate.
So it's is just keeping the wolf from the door til about June. We have had "skinnier " times.

ME..mostly hard for me to delve into that realm. Have ignored it for a long time. However...yesterday I read TWO books. If you do any pleasure reading "Angela's Ashes" is quite touching. I also found the full text of a turn of the century book about slums/tenements in NYC at the turn of the century. Both made me feel very lucky for the things that I have and the security.

On Dr.Irene's Verbal Abuse site there is a post from a woman who literally went through HELL for years before she could or would get out. Our problems here fade in comparison. Dr Irene can be quite harsh in some of her replies.

There is nothing wrong with spectating.
The denial we all carry may impact us more than the codep stff. It is easier to see the denial when it is someone else's and when they are treading a path we have already stuggled down it would be nice to be able to save them the pain. But we can't. I have tried to save my kids the Pain , those growing pains..but we all have to take our own knocks. It's really hard to not say "I told you so" just still be supportive. Had a friend once who, in the throes of old maiddom, decided to marry the jerk of the world. Her family was allfor it. I said..I'll tell you only once and won't harp on it...DON'T MARRY THIS STUPID JERK!!!. she did and was divorced withing 3 years. I should have harped on it? but I never said "I told you so.."" We did talk about it years later.

I think your confrontive style is valuable here in many cases. The mom's who post here, myself included, tend to want to "save" (as you do in your way) our new friends from pain and anquish. Sometimes some of us are to gentle... and to enabling. But even tho I KNOW in my heart of hearts that an abuser will not change unless they choose to change, and they will not choose change unless a partner sets a boundry and STICKS TO IT...My words will not make a real difference until their lives reach a point for them that is unbearable. It's hard to let it go..to not be listened to...

Nonsense? No Hazza, I don't think it is all nonsense. If we could be in a face to face group our leader would guide us out of this...as it is we have to find our own way. (SC?) All we have is this balck and white stuff. We have no eye contact, no tone of voice, no body language clues, no hugs...this is tenuous ground.

Sommetimes Broc I think you are to brash but like I said..many of us are to soft. And for a new person here sometimes we make things "okay" to stay with an addiction or an abuser.."work it out". But each bit of advice, from all the different angles may MAY let someone see the various options they have. It does become discouraging when they choose to do the things that will lead to continued turmoil. Ah well...if we have shared honestly...we have done what we could.

more later...
j-

March 28, 2000
2:26 pm
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BROC
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Janes-

BRAVO.

Hazza, knock it off. If I felt I was superior, I wouldn't be doing the therapy, groups, etc.,etc.,etc., I am doing now. I stated my opinion, you and brendas denial, and you guys didn't like it. Fine. Your right. Stay there, get married, have lots of kids, etc. I DON"T REALLY GIVE A SHIT. You create drama even here on this site. I don't like it. I lived with it for years. I have been here for over a year and have never had anything like this happen. The only thing that has changed in the equation is you. You and your buddy brenda. Fine. I'm wrong. Your both going to have fantastic relationhships. They will be the model by which we all live by. There, I said it. Now, as I asked you before, would you PLEASE not post to me, and I will not post to you.

I KNOW ENOUGH WHEN ITS TIME TO WALK AWAY FROM A DYING RELATIONSHIP, AND THIS IS DEFINIETLEY ONE OF THOSE TIMES.

SO, ADIOS'

b-

March 28, 2000
3:48 pm
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BROC
DON'T GIVE UP! Others still need you

March 29, 2000
4:08 am
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hazza
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Broc,
I know you have asked me not to post to but when you make accusations about me, i do feel i have the right to reply to them. So having replied to those accusations i will of course ignore you if you want, but i think it is sad that it has to be that way.

Have you totally misunderstood my posts? When did I ever say i was going to marry, kids live happily ever after etc???? that is your assumption, i have NEVER made any predictions for my own future in my relationship, in fact quite the opposite, i have always clearly stated that i don't know if things will work out, and i am prepared for the fact that there is a good chance they wont. You have this idea that i am somehow in denial and you are so very wrong about that, I am very much grounded in reality.

Janes made the very good point that people abusers don't change unless they have been shown FIRM boundaries, this is exaclty what I have done. The boundaries are there, that was what i had been in denial of in the past, denial of setting boundaries, that was the problem. Now, having set those boundaries, things are on the up, but i have always said that that is no guarentee.

I think it is you that has made this into a drama, you seem unable to allow other people to have a differing opinion to that of yourself. When people agree with you then they are fine and you respect them, but if they have a different opinion, wow, the gloves come off don't they. You have been making several snidy comments in posts that are directly aimed at Brenda and myself and not only do you not have the guts to admit that, but you then act up for sympathy asnd make out like you are a victim.
I ONLY EVER DISAGREED WITH YOU BROC, i only ever said to you that some of the things you believe, i didn't see as the same way. I still think that the way you explain to people here about repeating patterns and explaining some of the symptoms of co-dep is excellent, it has only ever been the way that you claim there is only one way to move forwards through these issues i disagree with.

Quite frankly Broc i have done too much work and come too far to have anyone tell me I am in any form of denial. It simply is not the case. There are a thousand and one reasons why i make the choices i make but i tell you denial is not one of them. I have no illusions that change will happen unless both parties work their arses off. But you just can't accept the fact that may be i know myself and my own situation very well, because i havent had a therapist tell me "where i am going wrong".

I am so very sorry that you feel so strongly that you wish to no longer communicate with me. But i do feel that you must please stop thinking that i am just not hearing your message, i do hear what you say Broc, much of it i still think is "bang on target" but there are just some things i don't see the same as you, and i am not the only one, to label all that disagree with you as being "in denial" is a cheap way of getting out of it. Face it, i am going the same place as you are broc, just taking a different path, it is nothing personal, until you made it so.
But i will not sit there mute, while you post things about me and not answer those points.
I never created a drama Broc, you did. I only ever created a discussion. I am not sitting here sweraing at you becuase you can't my point of view am i? i am not judging you becuase you don't agree with me, why do you judge me? why can't you handle different opinions?
There is a world of difference between denial and 2 people working at their problems together. When you asked Shannon about therapy, if she had said "yeah Broc, you are right we need to sort this out" then you would both be in therapy together now, trying to work it out together wouldn't you? would you really have said to here, okay lets split up but both get help? you may have done for a while, but you would have held out hope, if you saw that she genuinely wanted to heal herself and see her problems too, if you both had been getting help and both saw the need to change at the same time, you would still be trying to make that relationship healthy. becuase both of you would have been healing.

I just can't for the life of me understand why you have gotten so insulted over this????

can't you have a discussion without the bitchiness? (your BUDDY Brenda, you create a drama, ) and the sarcasm? (Your both going to have fantastic relationhships. They will be the model by which we all live by.)
grow up Broc, discuss don't throw a childish tantrum because someone disagreed with you.
Peace
Hazza

March 29, 2000
1:20 pm
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BROC
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Hazza,

Again, you are right. It is me. Really. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Listen, as I said before, and I will say again, I do believe two people in an unhealthy state of mind can work on things if they are on the same page....just as if Shannon would have said Yeah, lets do this thing.

BUT BUT BUT BUT , not if my ass was walking out the door. It is under those circumstances, ESPECIALLY those circumstances, THAT IT WILL NOT WORK!

99% of the codependents out there have fear....and 99% of those fear abandonment. That is what we grew up with. I have suffered from it last year with all my friends turning their backs on me. Two years ago I broke up with Shannon and starting dating another woman....Shannon went into major deprewssion, lost 20 pounds and cried every night and day for two months. Her friends were about ready to hositilaize her. She knows that pain, and will do ANYTHING to avoid that again. After that girl and I broke up we got back together. Shannon put up with 10 times more shit than before because of her fear. God, it was pathetic.

My point? You and Brenda BOTH posted almost identical posts regarding this very thing. THIS VERY THING. YOu BOTH told them IT WAS OVER ASSHOLE AND GET THE FUCK OUT! They OF COURSE panicked and tucked their tail. Jesus, can't you see this.

This is all I was saying. If you think that this has ANY chance of working then you are in denial. ASK ANYONE if anything good ever came out of fear? NO! NO! NO! That is codepedency. ITS ROOTS ARE IN FEAR!

So, with that said, this is offically my last posting period. I give up.

B-

March 29, 2000
3:07 pm
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Hello All,

I haven't been to this thread in a while…it's seems kinda "hot" here…

I think it's great we all want to help each other, however, helping does become non-helpful, even harmful when we become too forceful with our opinions.

Broc,

Codependency also involves black and white thinking. While some things do 'appear' wrong, there are also shades of gray which remain in all capacities. Also, breaking free has much to do with learning how to be self-focused, and centered. Relating too much or becoming too forceful with others can be damaging to our own self-focus and centeredness, which is the true light of healing.

I'm glad you are a part of this site, and hope you can re-visit from time to time to let us know how things are going.

SC

March 29, 2000
3:11 pm
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One more point to add:

It's hard to be part of the solution, when we're part of the problem.

When our behaviors on this site resemble abusive, harmful, self-esteem damaging language, this is part of the problem…

Point made?

stay focused, stay centered, and like water and nutrients to a flower, you will grow. - SC

March 29, 2000
7:00 pm
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janes
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Thank you SC

Broc and Hazza..when I first started coming here I was impressed with you both. You are both giving people.

j-

March 30, 2000
5:07 am
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hazza
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My Whole point was that I am no longer motivated by fear. If my relationship fails, it will not me through MY fears of abandonment or anything else. I cannot control what motivates my partner, but if it is FEAR that has motivated him to change then how is that wrong? As i said before, fear is what motivated the drug used to get clean, the womaniser to find commitment etc etc.

The big difference is this.

If you fear what your life is becoming and see the need for genuine change and get help for that then good.

If you do whatever you can to keep an unhealthy relationship going becuase you FEAR the alternative, then that is still being co-dep.

FEAR is not a good or bad thing, it is whether the fear motivates us to come out of denial and sort our lives out or whether the fears are keeping us in denial because we are too afraid to sort our lives out.

The fear part is not the issue, the issue is whether someone see a genuine need to change their life, or whether they will keep doing the same old thing through fear of the alternative.

My point was yes, my partner was afraid, but because he knew his life would stay the same until he changed, he would keep on losing. The fear motivated him to make the choice between hios old destructive behaviour or making the changes he needed to for himself. Thjat is why i believe there can be hope. If he was just making token changes to keep me sweet then we would not be here now, because i have seen that behaviour before and it is very different from a genuine attempt to change for the better.

March 30, 2000
8:47 am
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hazza,

I believe you have found another key in codependency. It is fear based. If we fear lonliness, fear self dependency, fear not having the security we 'MUST' have from someone else, this is a turning key for codependency. We can love someone who is codependent, but we don't have to be codependent WITH them. It makes all the difference in the world who we are, not only who we are with.

- SC

March 31, 2000
6:54 am
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hazza
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Exactly,
The whole point is you can only ever work on yourself, and decide on firm boundaries of what you will or will not tolerate from anyone who wants to share your life.
I spent a lot of time moving my own goal posts and never being constistent with my boundaries because deep down i was afraid to enforce them. It was only when i suddenly realsied that those boundaries WERE important and that they had to be respected or there was NO relationship, that i was ever taken seriously. If my partner is only taking my boundaries seriously because of co-dep reasons , ie he is afraid of the alternative, then sooner or later this would not work for him, he, would like we all do,would reach a point where he had to be true to himself and lead his life according to how he believed is right. So the issue of whether someone stays because they are co-dep or becuase they have had a geniune realisation that you are right to be enforcing your boundaries, becomes immaterial. If they are not genuine too, then they will not be able to keep up such a charade and will eventually choose their own path.
The reason that any of us choose the option of trying to WORK OUT instead of WALK OUT, is the hope that through it all, the 2 people involved will find that the boundaries worked out suit both of them, and that they both see the need for change and both have a genuine wish to improve the realtionship. Many times, we hear of the cases where both parties love each other and want to work things out, this is why marriage councellors exist.
It is a long shot, yes, there is much hard work for both people and the timing has to work in your favour. Both people need to be at the same stage of needing to change for themselves. But i personally don't buy the theory that this is never going to happen ever, nothing in this life is 100%, never has been , never will be.
There is a difference between denial and waking up to the need for change. It is a long walk but if you concentrate yourself, that is the best you can do, if it so happens that the other person wants to make the changes too, then great. But it is always a journey alone, it is something you have to be prepared to do alone, you have to say, hey I am making these changes in my life because i need to, whatever i lose in the process is sad, but c'est la vie. There is no point in worrying if the other person is doing it to please you or to continue the relationship, even if you stay together, they are not making the same journey as you are any way, they are making their own. it is just a caase of waiting to see if you both come out of it at a similar place.
The issues i am facing in my battles ar very different to that of my partner. We can talk to each other about how things are going for us, but at the end of the day we are alone in it. I may speak to him about my anxiety programme and the "homework " i am doing for that, he may speak to me about the issues he faces in keeping sober, but he cannot help me and i cannot help him other that to talk about it sometimes, either way, we are doing our own issues alone because we both know that our lives need that progress to get healthier, we also hope that in making those changes we will be able to keep the love that we have for each other, because despite the many sabotages we have both made against the love, we both feel the other is important to us. It would be nice to keep that, but only if the course of our "new" personalities allow that. Broc has made the very logical point that once 2 people go through this healing, they are no longer attracted to each other, but i am not so sure that 2 people are attracted by only that which is unhealthy, i think there can be a mixture, there are many things i am attracted to in my partner that have always been healthy parts of him, No-one is 100% dysfunctional. So yes, there is a good chance that that could be true, if it was the unhealthy parts that you fell in love with, (i personally never liked the unhealthy parts of my partner anyway!!) but maybe there is still enough healthy stuff that you fell in love with too, left. Only time tells and each case is different.
Peace all
Hazza

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