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I N S T R U C T I O N S F O R L I F E
March 3, 2000
2:52 pm
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I N S T R U C T I O N S F O R L I F E

1. Take into account that great love and great
achievements involve great
risk.

2. When you lose, don't lose the lesson.

3. Follow the three Rs:
Respect for self;
Respect for others and;
Responsibility for all your actions.;

4. Remember that not getting what you want is
sometimes a wonderful
stroke of luck.

5. Learn the rules so you know how to break them
properly.

6. Don't let a little dispute injure a great
friendship.

7. When you realize you've made a mistake, take
immediate steps to
correct it.

8. Spend some time alone every day.

9. Open your arms to change, but don't let go of
your values.

10. Remember that silence is sometimes the best
answer.

11. Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get
older and think
back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second
time.

12. A loving atmosphere in your home is the
foundation for your life.

13. In disagreements with loved ones, deal only
with the current
situation. Don't bring up the past.

14. Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve
immortality.

15. Be gentle with the earth.

16. Once a year, go someplace you've never been
before.

17. Remember that the best relationship is one in
which your love for
each other exceeds your need for each other.

18. Judge your success by what you had to give up
in order to get it.

19. Approach love and cooking with reckless
abandon.

March 3, 2000
5:20 pm
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janes
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Great job.

or as Mary Poppins would say..."Practically perfect in every way"

March 3, 2000
7:38 pm
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BROC
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SC-

Hate to be analitical (sp?), but number 19. I used to approach love this way and it got me into deep shit. Am I misintrepeting this rule perhaps? Reckless abandon to me means not thinking, and just diving in without any thought. Find it hard to believe you would post this unless it was "the truth".

Broc

March 3, 2000
8:43 pm
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janes
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But did you approach it with reckless codependent abandon? Or did you approach it with a true sense of your own self?

March 7, 2000
8:23 pm
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BROC
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Janes,

Not sure what you mean. Obviously before the "new me" it was with codependent abandon.

So, what is this saying. How does one approach love with reckless abandon, in a healthy way? Doesn't make sense, does it?

B-

March 7, 2000
9:02 pm
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Well.....how often do we do things that we SHOULD SHOULD SHOULD SHOULD I get tired of shoulds.

Maybe..if you are really healthy "reckless abandon" isn't so reckless. esp. if the relationship is with another healthy person. I wouldn't know about that. Mine is a codependent relationship but I am very lucky that mine is a sweetie...just REAL insecure and I am such a caretaker... and I still have lots of trouble with expressed anger. and anxiety....
Ah well. itty bitty steps.

But for healthy people... the two that may exist somewhere......it might be possible. don't you think? We can at least dream and hope that it is possible. Otherwise..why get healthy?
Maybe.."spontaneous fun" would be better than "reckless abandon"?

Or maybe the reckless abandon is in the total opeining of your self to another..there again ..better be two healthy people.

Hey...we can figure this out!!!

I am glad to be talking to you. and thanks.

Nice night here in the north...unseasonably warm spose to snow Thurs.

later
j-

March 8, 2000
9:08 am
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Good comments Janes and Broc,

This was an attachment sent to me...I post things like this occasionally, not because it's accurate, truth, etc, but because it can make us think about these 'shoulds' and 'right' ways of living...

We can all rephrase or take many meanings from all of the above. The love with reckless abandon, I take to mean showing our true selves with the ones we love, letting our inner pains and joys shine, rather than the false self we so often hide behind.

There are no perfections or rights or wrongs, that's the point. Remaining open to continuing self peace & self knowledge is really the hope.

Wishing us all as many good days as possible!

SC

March 8, 2000
9:56 am
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Wisdom, it's good to remind ourselves the above mentioned.

March 8, 2000
2:58 pm
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Janes,

Curious. I have learned that codpendent relationships, by there very nature, do not work. The dysfunctions that cause the codependency, etc. are what attracts each other to the other. And, once together, those same dysfunctions rip each other apart, because they are unhealthy, as they always have been.
I was also the caretaker in my relationships. My ex. Shannon and I went out, broke up over and over for almost four years. She was the needy one, obvioulsy, and now I know why, because I was the caretaker. Simple. But of course, I didn't know this back then, and either did she. She still doesn't. Anyway, the last and final breakup (I was always the one to kick her to the curb), was also my doing, but after it happening 6-7 times, she got wise, knew what I was up too (she told me), and told me to kiss off before I could talk to her. Hurt ego was all, but I am glad she "beat me to the punch". Why? Because I know that she doesn't believe in what we are doing. She calls it pycho-babble. A month after we broke up I told her all this new stuff I had learned (a months worth). Anyway, I asked her to go to counseling with me. After all, she wanted it far more than I ever did. She waded through 10 tons of shit for me, just like Brenda is doing now. Why? Cause I knew I had her. I knew she wouldn't leave me. Her self esteem was so low she had no faith in her. So, she clung on to me with a death grip, because I was everything she ever wanted in a man. Yadda yadda yadda
Anyway, my question is this. How is it yours has lasted all these years? Or, has it lasted and only been an existence. Not a happy, fullfilling, healthy relationship?

I am guessing its not healthy, and has just been an existence. I don't think you would be here if all was fine. Also, your daughters situation doens't sound fun, and we know those behaviors come from childhood, homelife. Now, Janes, I really like you, and by no means am pointing a finger. I think you know that. But am I right? And now your in the process, like the rest of us, of finding out what the hell went wrong.

Thanks-

The ever curious and learning Broc-

March 8, 2000
9:42 pm
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Yes and no(know)... I have sublimated my feelings for many years. More for the reason of raising four children than for any other...that and...the busyness of life in any household. Mine has been (for past 14 years) an old fashioned "extended family" ...great gramma, grandparents, parents, children. Think of the pile of shoes involved for nine people..of the coats!!

there have been yeras when I hhave been very unhappy...but not nec. with spouse..

He's not a drinker, not a doper, not phys. abuseive, not emot. abusive. He's kind, fairly patient, doens't pick up his socks and sits on his ass sunday afternoon for car races. He bothers me when he gets mad at me for silly little things...He's not currently employed as he is finishing last semester of college for teaching degree.

Hmmmmmmm ... the most negetive thing is my verbally abusive, overly controlling witch of a mother. ((and my dad is a great guy...) but I am currently ticked off at him cuz when we were kids he never made my mom STOP her nagging controlling behavior.

when I met my husband I was firly near a Masters in Counseling...too many babies ( and a lack of drive) stopped me.

I am here more because with my 20 year olds three year binge i went thru hell.

found myself trying to be controlling ...but it made me so anxious! Am a super believer in God and Jesus and that really go me through... and I started to notive that even when others didn't chnge...if I did the changing (maybe a viewpoint, an expectation etc.) I felt better. Not that I still don't want the best for my kids but their best may not be WHAT I WANT FOR THEM. but rather what they want for themselves.

Me....I'm just a little codependent. (my therapist screams denial when I say that) and maybe that's true. but I am changing things here at home and at work. And inmy head.

13 year old needs computer for homework..
Tell me what you think so far.
j-

March 9, 2000
1:59 am
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Hmmmm. Mother controlling, your controlling. Go figure?!

Your therapist says your in denial about just how codependent you are, as in you are much more than you think you are? Do I have that right. Boy, I have dealt with that. And Janes, he/she knows better. (I think deep down you know that too!)

Overall, you came from a dysfunctional family, and replicated that in your family (adult) life. You kind of avoid direct answers, maybe thats just the way you are?! But I was looking for more black and white answers, so that I could get a baseline about you. But, we all have our own way!

Whats up with your Dad? Nice guy, with a witch. Doesn't add up. Whats up with him that he couldn't land a sweetheart. Honestly, is your does your husband remind you of Dad? Mom?

The thing I have learned over and over, from this site, therapists, tons of books, is that although we are all differeent, we are all the same. Meaning, that most of us are dysfunctional; this is engrained in us from birth to about 7 years old. We take these dysfunctial view/behaviors into our adult lives. We choose the worst possible mates for us because of these dyfuncitonal views. In short, the dysfuction(s) causes us to be attracted to other dyfunctional people, especially our mates. This interaction is never true bliss, because of the very nature of what its built on... dysfuncitonal(ism).

So, does this apply to you? Were all the men in your life basically the same? Like dear old dad? Mom? I can't believe that everything I ahve read and studied, from at least 50 different sources, is wrong. And they all say one think. We repeat our patterns.

B-

March 9, 2000
6:13 am
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I agree. Yes my family fromchildhood is/was dysfunc.

My dad with a witch...I have this theory about that. I think when My mom was in her teens she was fun (still is with lots of people.just not me) and my dad was orphaned when he was 12 and as unstabel as she is/was my mom was his stability. Her dysfunction has shown more and more as she has aged. she gave up her dreams for other things (her choice) so I don't want to give up mine and eventually have that resentment.

Yes I am more dyfunctional than I think I am... I think.

Were all the men in my life basically the same? the two that counted were.
My husband is a LOT like my dad. and they are both nice guys without substance abuse problems (with controllling wives0 but like I said I am working hard not to turn into my mother.

No. your studying etc. is not all wrong. unbeknoownst to me I did replicate my childhood family. I am trying VERY HARD NOT TO BE CONTROLLING. Probly making a muddle of that too.

I know a lot just don't know zactly HOW i feel or what I want to do. have some ideas. , have some plans ...like getting another certification for my specialties and some other post grad degree. These are on hold cuz I am poor.
Soooo I am trying to break out of the pattern ever so slowly. I am gaining on it. I find gret contentment in certain things. try to not be concerned with things that are not mine to be concerned about. try to let others make their own mistakes and not nag or go on and on about them.

what else do yo wawnt to know.
j-

March 9, 2000
7:36 am
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I always enjoy reading your posts...have been fearful of them directed at me (codep issues) (fear and anxiety issues)

One thing that is happeing is that if I stop (there is a great book caled "sStopping") I can and do have real feeling of being a huge hypocrite, a fake a fraud. (physician heal thyself)
Should I even post to others with such horrible problems when I am so slow in working on my own?
I have a long way to go. You seem so very vigilant with your self....Me I feel like I am just awakening again and so often the awakening takes a back seat to laundry or my second job.

It's a good thing you live far away ..you'd prboly thump me with one of those books.

YES...other people come first. I am a super caretaker...!!!! and I am a great enabler (this is not a good thing)

I have a great sense of humor and am even kinda cute for an old dame.

For years I felt like my sister was so good looking and I was not ( thick glasses etc.) then...not really very long ago... I realized that if the whole community we grew up in thinks we are twins....(identical) and I think she is cute.... and I look just like her...then... ergo... I am not an ugly hag!!1 I KNOW I KNOW. LOOKS ARE NOT IMPORTANT and that's true...but how we look at ourselves is.... I was looking at myself very skewed.

Hey....take care.

phake j

....We all need to be "grown ups" and not "groan ups".

March 9, 2000
2:50 pm
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Hey Janes-

Was as I thought. This stuff isn't rocket science, is it?

Hate to get caught up in semantics, but you made a statement, "no, your couseling is not all wrong", which indicated to me that some is, some isn't. Or, am I just reading into that.

Let me know. then I can fill you in on me!

B-

March 9, 2000
6:42 pm
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You are "reading in" to that statement. I have a friend sho won't let me use any "wrong " words..makes me nutz keeps me honest. No it isn't rocket science but it might be easier if it was annd I am a speech therapist because I didn't have to do any math.

No counseling is ever "all correct"". The counselor is, after all, just another person, who may or may not have their own isues which do or do not get in the way. they are people too. I am a great teacher and a great special ed. person...but all that aside when I get home I am just a mom. ("just" is not giving enough credit to the job")

I am happy today. I am taking tomorrow off work and will sit in the "recovery section at Barnes and Noble and give you a thought.

the lunatics were out again today.
But I am together enough nowdays to know their struggles ar not mine and I will personally prevail in this self thing.
Yes fill me in

j-

March 10, 2000
1:04 am
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Janes-

I think what I meant was that the things I have learned over the past year, from different counselors, authors, lecturers, etc. have ALL said the same things. Like we will repeat over and over until we heal, that you cannot ever have any hope of a successufl relationship if you don't heal your wounds, issues, etc. Things like that.

It sounded as if maybe you thought that didn't always apply, like with one of us. That its possible that we could take JUST the knowledge we have, find a mate, and that that knowledge would be the key to the happiness...like we could avoid the threpay, etc. Make sense??

What I am trying to say is that I read into what you were saying as some of the pychology stuff is right on, but may not apply to everyone. FRom what I have learned, it applies to us all. If anyone who has issues doesn't heal those issues (fear of abandonment, codependency, etc. )and go through recovery, then they are screwed. Bottom line.

B-

March 10, 2000
6:23 am
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Yup I agreeget help or stay screwed up. and keep wondering why.... Yes we do repeat and repeat.

Now...are you taking the steops to take your hard won knowledge and expertise on as a paying job?

I really like that book "Lost in the Shuffle" as the author was an alhlcolic at the same timehe was being a counselor to alcoholics AND he talks about his dysfunc. family. Its a good starter book.

ou do good work.
j-

March 10, 2000
4:29 pm
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Hardly think I have enough expertise on this. No, its not my low self-esteem talking, I just no my limits.

This is my BIGGEST point I try to make to everyone here.

I can see the pitfalls a person keeps falling into. You here the story, and it has a very familar ring to it?! I can then tell them whats going on (what the can't see cause they are in it). This I think helps them to start to see that yes there is a definite problem and I better find out what it "is". That is is where I stop. Not my area. We all know that is in the persons pyche, and can't be retrieved unless alot of work is done. That takes a professional.

Now, I could guess. But that wouldn't do anyone any good. Like I keep saying, we are all the same, but what makes us the same is different. Like techno boy, he grew up witnessing abuse. A mom that thrived on it. So, what does he learn? How does he relate? I can't remember for sure since its on a different thread and I can't jump to it, but his relationships are either with mates that he abuses or that abuse him. Its one of the two. Either way, what makes him do that vs. the next guy make me 180 degrees the opposite.

So, I will stay and help where and when I can. ALthough I have been thinking of writing a book on my experice in an effort to maybe reach more people than are here. I know for me it was very comforting knwing I wasn't alone!

All for now.

b-

March 10, 2000
6:40 pm
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Janes,

Shit, this is a long one. But its my story, part of it anyway.

Today, past few days actually, feeling kind of down. Have so much to be happy for, but today is the anniversary of me ex. and I's final adios. Even though it was what I wanted, still "feels" like an empty spot in my heart. DOn't know if you know the story, but a few months after we broke up, my best friend starting hanging out with my friends that kind of sided with her. (long story) It was weird since he was married, wife 8 monhts pregnant, etc. Then I just never heard from him. Anyway, Aug. came and ran into his wife. She filled me in. Won't go into detail now, but in a nutshell, shannon and I broke up last jan., made it a solid decision March 10th, and never spoke again, in any form, even to this day. Sometime in april, my 12 year best friend started screwing shannon on the sly. their baby was born in mid may, and two days home from the hospital, he tells her he deosnt love her anymore and wants to seperate. She of couse is destoyed. She moves out for the "seperation". Her definition. His definition, so I can fuck freely. She suspected it was with shannon, caught him over them in comprimising positions several times, caught them both in lies, but they always denied it. Go figure~ Anyway, about the third week of June she finds an email saying I miss you shannon, I can't wait to do you again, etc. She confronts him, he says it was a joke. What a sick fuck. Of course it wasn't, he just go busted. Anyway, the next day he files for divorce...his ex. says cause he was scared shitless he would loss rights to his son for the adultry. Not even a week later, the VERY end of June, she comes to pickup the baby, and he makes the moves on her. She desperately wants to reconcile, so she gives in and they screw. he acts like its nothing. She is sickened and tells him to leave. The affair continues on through July... Shannons b-day is July 5th, he takes her out. Within the next few days, he tries to get his wife back into bed AGAIN! This time she tells him to fuck off! It continues on and at the end of July I myself later find out through a mutual friend they are in fact a couple. My friend (our friend) saw them hand in hand at a party for antoher friend. The denial is now over! Anyway, it continues on through August at which time I meet his wife (accidently) at a gas station. She tells me all of this, and we back track, ask around, and fill in the details. This is about mid august. She is doing well by this time. She tells me that just a few days before she saw me, the prior weekend, he tried to get her in the sack AGAIN!

SO, that means this. TEll me if you think this is sick. He is married 5 years, together for 10. He and I are BEST friends for 12. Shannon and I break up for the final time. HE obvioulsy knows this as we are best friends. HE ALSO knows that shannon is very needy when it comes to having a man, and HE KNOWS from me her weak points and what to say. He does just that. He tells her he loves her, the whole nine yards. That was hard for shannon and I to express, kind of a control issue with us. Anyway, this gets her. And why not, he has her blueprints. So, he expoits it. Not that shannon is any less guilty, but he did decieve her into thinking this was the real deal when it was not (they aren't together anymore). Anyway, they are both sick. So, this affair starts sometime in April, goes through may, june, july, and at least august. During this time he is telling her he LOVES her very much, he is lucky to have her, etc. her beds his wife in June, tries again in July, and again in AUgust. keep in mind he loves shannon! yeah, thats love. Now the kicker. He met a woman at his work, great looking girl, great figure, RECENTLY divorced, with a two year old son. This happened in about June. Well, this same girl who he says at the time is just a friend is his girlfriend NOW. Gee, what a coincidence?! SO, in fact he had been seeing her since at least june, july sometime. Remember, he started seeing shannon in April - August. AND, he is still screwing a woman he says he doesn't love.

Anyway, shannon falls by the wayside sometime end of august, first of september. I didn't know this till about a month ago. Get this.

I join a club that does for childrens charities. A new member come in about the first of Feb. We start talking, and come to find out he lives RIGHT across the street from dickhead. He has the whole skinny. Turns out that his new girlfriend had been parking down the street from his house, and then walked up and went inside, obviously hiding the fact she was there from his wife. He told me that had been going on for at least a month or so, maybe a month and a half before she felt comfortable parking in the front of the house. His wife had called me about mid-September to finally dispel the notion he and shannon were still an item as she said she went by the home to pickup the baby and she was there. She called before she went, so he felt comfortable with his soon to be ex. knowing about the new girl. So, this told me that if this happened in mid september, and my frined in the club told me that she had been hiding her presence by parking down the block and walking up for over a month, that takes us back to between the first and second weeks in August. Remember that was the same time he tried to get his wife into be bed, and was still during his time with shannon. So, I suspect he and shannon were pretty much history. she is very nosey, and would have busted him with her before even his wife would have. Probably another reason she parked down the street! Three at one time. Boy I bet his ego was really inflated. But I was just like him, so I understand why he did what he did, but it doesn't excuse the betrayl and trust and frineship he destroyed FOR NO OTHER REASON THAT TO HAVE A CRUTCH/CUSHION TO GET OUT OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS WIFE! TALK ABOUT CODEPENDENCY! I know this because 1, if he truley loved her as he claimed he did, then he would have never got involved with her during his marriage. He would have waited till the divorce was final, given himself some alone time for self reflection, etc. then got involved, you know, the healthy thing. 2, he told me many times over the four years shannon and I were together that she had a great figure, BUT, not attractive at all in the face. He said this to all of our friends; I overheard him a few times, but didn't care. I saw through that. Not her heart, but her codependency! Yeah baby! hee hee

Anyway, I know why. And to think he got mad AT ME once because he said I was intentially hurting her and it wasn't really fair. Fuckhead.

Anway, this whole time I am in hell. In May, June, I think about taking my life, really. It hurts so bad. And that whole time my best friend cuts me off to screw my ex. My other close friend lives with her so he cuts me off too (he needs a place to live, he is a fuckup too) so he had his selfish reasons. Then, after six months of pure hell (thank god above I didn't know the whole story until later, i would have killed myself) I met a girl that talks the talk. Remember, I HAVE HAD NO FRIENDS for six months, and I have severe depression. So, I had to find something to help me hang on. So, in addition to my twice a week therapy, I start attending a twelve step recovery meeting once a week called Codependents anonymous. And, a once a week meeting that is a codependent/relationship insturctional meeting.

Anyway, I mentioned I met a girl that talked the talk. Actually, I met her a few years prior, during one of shannon and I's breakups. We slept together a few times, then I would get back with Shannon. Anyway, we crossed paths and she had been in couseling too and this and that and talked the talk and boy it just felt good, you know? I had been in counseling since the very beginnin of Jan. when shannon and I broke up, and never went on ONE date. NO sex. No nadda. And thats coming from a codependent sex addict! Talk about hell. And top that off with what my good buddy and friends did, and its really a wonder I am still here.
But anyway, I we started hanging out, dating, etc. NOw, remember folks, I had just learned this stuff. I didn't know yet how to apply it to my life. Like when you get a degree and first enter the workforce type of thing. So, the reason for her therapy was this. Again, don't judge my judgement. She is 28. Comes from a very wealthy family. HOwever, she is an ......alcoholic. I know, I know. Get off my back. ANYWAY, six months prior, about the time of my breakup, she got sent away on a forced therapy session, SIX MONTHS of it, confined. VERY much like a prison. (IT was because she got her third DUI) So, she says she finally learned her lesson. I believe her as I think to myself, my god, she HAS to have learned her lesson! Surely! She is on probation for I think two years. She can't drive that entire time, and yes, this is the girl I dicide to make my gf. Fuck! Anywya, she really helps me understand everyting that happened with Shannon and my buddy (Jim). She really was very knowledgeable! Why shannon did what she did, etc. because she was just like her. It really felt good to have someone that understood me, and who could help me see what I couldn't. But she was still in her reovery, and I (unconsciouslyu) saw a great opportunity to be the caretaker again. I told my therapist this and she shit. BUT I KNEW BETTER THAN SHE DID. Shannon was ok now, she was getting help, etc. I was such an idiot. Anyway, yep, she sure talked the talk, but very soon wasn't walking the walk. (This was ok to do this so long as your partner sees that he/she needs to grow themselves. You can't make it work if only one of you is working. So, I was doing the right thing, kind of. YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE YOUR EXCITEMENT OVER FINDING ANOTHER PERSON THAT WANTS TO GROW LIKE YOU DID VIA RECOVERY DOESN'T CLOUD YOUR JUDGEMENT LIKE IT DID ME!) I found her to be EXACTLY like Shannon. Pety, jealous, vindictive, etc. If a female friend gave me a hug, she, JUST LIKE SHANNON, would give me the evil eye, pout, and yell at me for it. JUST LIKE SHANNON. (CAN YOU SAY "REPEAT") So, I tell her this, and she fuciking flies off the handle. Starts telling me I am the fucked up one, that its because I am hung up on the Shannon and Jim issue, etc. I tell her shes overboard, and needs to leave. She calls me over and over. 35 phone messages AT MY HOME in just a few short days. MEAN. VERY MEAN. I change my home number. She starts with my cell phone. I change that. She sends me at least 50 emails. I fiannly threaten her with a restraining order and she stops, kind of. A few trickle in and then stop. That was back in October.

Oh, forgot something. Her ex. is a white collar alcoholic drug user. Heroin, etc. When she got sent away, he went nuts. Deleved into drugs, etc. When she came back, her family threatned him.. He has beat her before, and many other VERY sick things! Despite all that, two weeks back she meet up with him to "talk". I think its a big mistake, but her mom (a recovering alcoholic) tells me that it is bad, but just a slip up. "Those things happen". So, I stay. He calls and shows up at her work several times, but she shoots him down. SHE HAS BROC!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There was a time that I asked for a few weeks to myself. It was when I found out about Shannon and Jim and realy didn't feel well. She spent that week at his home. Screwing, etc. It was sick, but the old abandonment kicked in and I forgave her. Sick. BUT, I was starting to see past the sickness (due to all the work I had done) and finally said enough was enough. Then the breakup as I described before. Fast forward to last week. I get a collect called from the local jail. Its her. She has been arrested! I don't accept the call. I call my buddy that works for the police, he looks her up, and it and come to find out that after we broke up she violated her probation (didn't get specific). There were TWO warrents issued for her arrest, and when they finally caught up with her, she had drugs and drug parafanallia (sp?) on her. Sounds like her and the ex. were bopping again. Anyway, she is fucking toast. She is going to prison now. Not even her parents money can save her now!
God, I am tired of typing, so I will finish later! Sorry so long, but wanted to get some of this off my chest, and to share with all of you. I hope you can see what a true savior therapy can be. Had I not had it, Iwould have been in the middle of that shit. So stay on your path. I am on mine. I will fill you guys in on my new gf. Met her in counsleing. It is really healthy and wonderful. But had I not changed my life, I would not have the great life I have now, and have a great woman to share it with. It used to be I had a great life if I had a woman, but I went through the shit to get over neededing that. I faced my additiction, not fed it.

B-

March 10, 2000
7:05 pm
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janes
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Whew...what a soap opera to have to live through and at suc a vulnerable time for you too. It surely does amaze me just how sick and depraved people can be although...I can remember being sick and depraved when I was much younger. Sometimes it seems like morals and ethics and vlaues have just been thown out the window. If everyone just used the ten comandments how much better we would be.

I am glad you have come so far...talk to you later.

j-

March 10, 2000
11:51 pm
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BROC
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Janes,

I am assuming you are calling shannon and jim sick and depraved!? Yes?

Also, question for you. Since I have started living my life the right way, the healthy way, life is SOOOOOOO wonderful. Little ups and downs, but thats life. NONE OF THE PRIOR CHAOS LIKE WITH SHANNON, ETC. Now, lets say I went back in time to where shannon and I started. I had no awareness of any of this, no therapy, just going about life as usual. Except, lets change one dynamic. Lets say that I lived my life by the 10 commandments. No lieing, cheating, none of the shit jim and I did. Are you telling me that that alone would have made the realtinship with shannon and I work?

B-

March 11, 2000
8:55 am
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janes
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Maybe not that alone...but I do believe that it would be totally different. I don't think God meant for us to be this screwed up. We are created IN HIS IMAGE and pardon my french but we on our own, are doing a SUCKASS JOB of following the "rules". Course God picked the Jews to be his "chosen People " and then all thru the Bible calls them stubborn and sitffnecked"!!

I do believe the whole world WOULD BE DIFFERENT cuz we would all 1-honor god 2)not lie 3-not covet 4-not steal 5-not commit adultry 6-not murder 7-honor our parents 8-go to church 9-not worship idols (golf, tv, material good etc.) and I forget ten and am too lazy to go look it up again

if EVERYONE DID THOSE I BELIEVE THE WORLD WOULD BE DIFFERENT..TOTALLY...BEYOND THOSE..IF WE FOLLOWED (oops didn't mean to yell)
just a few of the NEW RUles from the new Testament...an increased change would occur...like Love your neighbor as yourself. treat others the way you want to be treated.honor your husband, honor your wife, don't make your kids mad on purpose. don't be judgemntal ( that's up to God) treat your body as a temple,

But that's the problem...noone wants to really admit that God/Jesus can make a difference in our lives or that the Bible has good ideas in it. I admit it and I still am a rebellious miserable little poop most of the time. and it isn't good for me in the long run to be rebellious. Treat my body as a temple...i smoke like a chmney.
I think once we reach these codependent/messed up points in our lives we need the guidance of a good therapist and the support of a good group to stick to a healthy path. Bottom line...we are all sinners. One simple word that says it all about the behaiors we choose. Just becoming a "Christian" won't take away the urges. And it is always okay to say we are "codepnedent, or addicted, or bipolar or whatever"... If we give it a name...it 's okay but uf we use God's name for what we do SIN then we become fanatics and that's not okay.

IF the whole world followed those rules faithfully you and Shannon would have been different. but the whole world doesn't. Parents abuse kids and each other...people have low self esteem (don't love themselves) so they are cruel to each other...commimt adultry, lie, steal cheat, soooooooooooooo we are all messed up.

We are a proud and stiffnecked race we humans. God may close doors and open a window right next to it but we will stare at the same closed door willing it to open for us. We fail to seek help from Him or anyone else. We're ppops. But....He's still there. Waiting.
I also believe that God helps those who helps themselves. He's there for us but gives us free will to screw up as much as we like..He is not an enabler or codependent. Loves us for what we are on the inside and doesn't judge us for what's on the outside. Will punish and reward when deserved. etc etc. etc. and all he asks is our trust and love.
But we of the little minds most often can't have the faith that everything works out for good in HIS time.

To me what has screwed up our relationship with God the most is the Church...organized religion filled with other sinner who don't follow the ten commandments either. God is not the "Church" although the Church is supposed to reflect God it doesn't always.

Enough .... I have probly turned you right off and you will never respond to me again.

bottom line....it would have made a huge difference. But it's to late now. But....would you be where you are now without the journey you have been on? My journey at times has been hell for me...but...it's my journey. I am glad I have the faith to say...I'm taking peace now God...you worry about this kid.. or whatever.

March 13, 2000
12:29 am
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BROC
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Janes,

No, you didn't turn me off. Ironically I have realized a connection between looking to God for answers and help and wisdom as much as my therapist.

I guess what I was asking without asking it was this.

I wanted to know if you thought that even if I could go back in time and live my life by the big 10, BUT, still with the issues we both had (minus the cheaing and lying) would things have worked.

I know that stretching it, but I think that there are probably people out there who do go to church, etc., live the right life, but still have codependency in their lives. Maybe they aren't liars and cheathers, but maybe they do other things, such as contorl and manipulate because of fears of abandonment, due to low self esteem, etc.

Make sense? In other words say Shannon woke up tomorrow and said, boy, I'm miserable, I need to change my life. If she turned to the good book and started living her life by it do you think it would give her the help she would need to overcome what we here are trying to overcome, or would you say that doing that would HELP, but she would definitely need a good therapist and support group to help you heal for good! Like we are doing.

B-

March 13, 2000
1:47 am
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winter001
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Janes
nice to find someone who believes the same things I do about religion. One of the hardest parts of my co-dep was that I would do things I knew were wrong without hesitation, and afterwards I would feel like scum. but they are still my actions. if i'd held my head up high and stuck to what i knew was right i know i wouldnt have had the last disaterouse relationship, but i don't believe that would change the underlying problem. - i've always been co-dep, with my father, mother, brother etc etc, since my earliest memory i was doing everthing to please, - and manipulate. but i had good intentions and i knew right from wrong and i believed in god, i don't believe that doing the things God expressly asked us not to do results in our co-dependency, it simply gives us more ways to corrupt our souls and our partners souls.

guys i came from what was essentialy a good family, my parents weren't addicts, they were just co-dependent because that is what they had learnt, my brother and i were good students, the only mistake they made was that they didn't know how to love us or each other but they could never ever admit that,- when they got divorced, becuase my father had found someone who needed him more- they never shouted at each other not once. - sick

we are who we are and I believe God just gives us guidlines on how to get the best out of that, to be the best that we can be.

I think this is a modern day problem, like aids, each era has it's new challenges, this is ours, what we've done to the world, has done this to us, and it's up to us to find a way to heal ourselves.

March 13, 2000
6:17 am
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janes
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broc-
Maybe they woulda have worked out different. I am no prophet or mind reader. god helps those who helps themselves so a good therapist and a good group is definitely in oorder. Sounds like Shannons would have to be under coercion to do the therpist thing now...

There are people in church who act just the way you said. Just going to church dowsnt take away the ISSUES WE CAUSE ORSELVES. but some people can..with a good church family be okay. Not every one seems to this kind of depth and seaching. I think lots of people are satisfied with an okay life and the things we talk about are really non issues to them. they live good okay lives

The big 10 and al the rest are guidelines we should live by but we don't.

I think it could have been lots different. but it isn't.

If Shannon woke up tomorrow and turned to the Bible...she would also need a good therapist to guide her through web she has woven. We can weave very convoluted webs for our selves.

the ten commandments and the bible and the church would have made huge differences for you and Shannon as individuals and as a couple.

but I still think therapy in severe cases would be necessary.

I think the bible and Church and the ten commandments can make a big difference in your life NOW.

Winter...I know I know...grew up the same way codep "good" parents, no abuse 'cept for the crazy mother nagging all the time. I would go one step further and say God not only gives us guidelines to live with what we have but also to make it better. I don't think He wants us to be in broken relationships or to stay broken.

I think he has made the human person an amazing creature and we can keep getting better!!!

Faith hope love...the greatest of these is love. and he doesn't mean the codep kind.
Love your neighbor as yourself...if you don't love you you can't love your neighbor.

Oh what a tangled web we weave.

Love you

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