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I Have Something To Say - PLEASE Read
November 14, 2005
11:49 am
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mamacinnamon
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Hi all:

I wanted to bring up something that I feel needs to be addressed. But, first the normal disclaimers. This is NOT about any one person, I do not want to hear anyone single out Kathygy, that is a done deal as far as I am concerned. The hand of friendship has been offered.

I am not here to jump into the middle of this dissention. I do, however, w/ not being on one side or the other, want to point out a few things I noticed.....

I thought this site was about standing as a "family" as such. Are we not to uplift, advise, vent, embrace, empathize, etc.? Are we not to "vent" as we need to? Are we not to encourage? Then why the hell is back-biting and dissention taking over? I am witnessing on most threads that instead of trying to uplift and help that there is criticism, attacking, just plain ol rude and irresponsible behavior goin on. And it is not even being directed at the person that started the thread, it is toward the person who is genuinely giving a post of hope and help, or the person stating how they feel.

I have no problem w/ a person speaking their mind, but it should be in an appropriate way. As an example.... a person has beliefs that being gay is wrong and that person gets bashed over and over. Another example... a person who says to an abuser who comes here to go away and that person gets bashed over and over for having the courage to in her mind stand up for herself and others here. (yes, we know who, but no specific pointing of fingers coz this is to be as a whole, not an opportunity to start yet another fight.)

Can ya'll see what is happening here? Instead of helping the person who started the thread in need of some help, as soon as a poster says anything (almost) that another poster disagrees with it automatically becomes grounds for attack. And not just by one person. And most importantly, the person who started the thread is now sitting there dumbfounded and not getting any of the help they cried out for. Can ya'll see this? We are so busy shoving what we think, religious or not, down each others throats and so busy tellin each other how we are wrong and what we have to believe. This including the reason so many posts are being moved from support to libs.

What are we doing here to each other? Are we not supposed to have the right to feel and believe how we want? Then why if a person says "example - I don't think you should eat meat on Friday" that person gets jumped and verbally beaten so badly they just want to leave this site. Is it not ok for some to eat meat on Friday and some to not? Are we not mature enough to respect what a person posts and let them have their belief without turning on them like they are tonight's dinner? If you ask someone specifically what color the sky is you are gonna get 7 of 10 answers different. So why then does the person that says sky blue have the right to bash the person that says robin egg blue. Does anyone out there get what I am saying? Last example... If a person says they choose to abstain until married and the next poster says "for me that is not an issue", then the 3rd comes in and say "well, then you are gonna go to hell for believing that". First, it's not their place to judge; second, let them have their belief and keep the focus on the original poster and not look for the first opportunity to attack. Same goes for if a person says "I worship the devil" and one comes in and says "that makes me uncomfortable take it to libs". Leave it alone. That person can believe what they want and if not preaching or missionizing they should not be bullied coz they believe in the devil, or God, or Dali Lamma, or Buddah, or the dog down the street.

Please folks, I am asking that we stop and take a look at yourselves, not anyone else. Please let's keep the focus on the original thread poster, or if someone down the line needs help and ASKS for the help. Focus on that and stop this immature behavior. I mean do we want to act like a toddler and have our noses wiped or act like an adult and have enough maturity to keep the focus here on what is important -- HELPING the original poster.

One last thought, and I don't know what or if anything should be done about this. Most of you remember "Truck Driver". Look what happened. (1st, no fingers pointed and nobody here to blame) He played on us, he conned us into pushing his woman to give him one more chance, he then used our well intentions to commit unspeakable crimes against her, and then had the audacity to come back and say the same damn things he started out w/ the first time. I am NOT saying Stalker is the same way, but if a victim feels the need to speak out to that person, please give that person the room to say what they have to say and back off. She has rights just as you do. I think it's a truly sorry day when we choose to respect and give an abuser more rights than the person who has been here helping you, supporting you, and trying to heal herself.

OK. I have spoken what I have had so heavily weghing on my heart. I welcome feedback. I also feel if we will ALL OF US just put the pettiness and differences aside that this site could possibly get back to the great site it once was. But as it is now... I am totally ashamed but still care very deeply for each of you here. Kinda like you do w/ your kids. 🙂

Peace

mamaC

November 14, 2005
12:23 pm
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Lass
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Thank you for speaking your mind, Mama.

I have found myself, of recent, wanting to jump in and say things, in my regular real life. I feel almost compelled to do it, and manage to refrain for just a moment, only to find I would have stuck my foot in my mouth.

I think I am being shown how dangerous speech can be, how important to watch our talk.

The tongue is the most damaging member of the body.

If I have been less than careful and respectful here at any time with anyone, I sure do apologize, right here and now. And I want you all to know, I am working on this issue.

Love, Lass

November 14, 2005
12:31 pm
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Anonymous
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I agree that we can feed the better part of this democratic board, just by choosing what's best in ourselves.

I don't usually follow or feed dissension because i've been worn out by that since my early life. So I'm not much into the issues in question.

However, for my part I can say that sometimes times I felt like leaving the site because of miscommunication. And especially because, when that happened people didn't stick to the thread where the issue was. I resisted the thought of leaving because of all the wonderful feedback I would stop from getting. So I learned more about assertiveness than ever before. I still tend to take responsibility for others'feelings and help them save face especially if no one is to gain anything and that's all that's in power to do.

I have had people tell me of horrible things that they did. Its modern, its glorious. Things like torturing a prominent international figure. In this case I asked if the person had read a book so and so and gave it to the person. I wish to believe that this person is retired for good and perhaps better since I was told the mother had that book too. I am never going to be the same after this brief encounter at a language institution. The world can be a terrible place but I'll keep hoping and feeding the best, for my part.

"A Native American man was telling a story to his young grandson. He said that inside of every person evil and good raged at one another like two wolves. The young grandson asked his grandfather which one would win? His grandfather told him, "The one you feed."

November 14, 2005
12:35 pm
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kc30
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Mama

Judging from this statement.

"...but if a victim feels the need to speak out to that person, please give that person the room to say what they have to say and back off. She has rights just as you do. I think it's a truly sorry day when we choose to respect and give an abuser more rights than the person who has been here helping you, supporting you, and trying to heal herself. "

...you feel Nesh was treated unjustly in the Stalker thread. Is this accurate?

I think we all have different perspectives, and that our personal friendships within the boards can cloud our judgements and distort our perceptions.

Case in point:I read the stalker thread, and believe direct, assertive communication was used in a healthy manner by all EXCEPT Neshema- who called a total stranger who came here looking for help "digusting".

I believe it is healthy and appropriate to provide her with feedback that could aid her in her recovery, as many have done, myself included. That is the point of this board, as I understand...and I would hope someone would do the same for me if they perceived an opportunity for growth in me. The choice of what to do with the feedback is up to the person who receives it.

I have read the comments, snide remarks and insinuations and generally passive aggressive attacks ("read between the lines" "one must be careful" etc etc) on the "Sunday Night Crew" one, although I've heard from people who were talked about that there are other threads that have done the same thing.

I feel sick and very, very upset. Why were people who disagreed with Neshema talked about by her and others on that thread, behind their backs? If there was feedback to be given...why do it "on the sly" on another thread instead of directly to the person on the thread in question? Because it isn't feedback, it's gossip, as far as I can tell.

Why is it necessary to put another person down in order to gain support or validation?

I can't imagine being ef or Lolli...who were both named and put down on the thread I read.

My feelings are hurt FOR the people who were talked about behind their backs. That is just not nice. And it's not healthy, direct communication either.

kc

November 14, 2005
1:43 pm
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mamacinnamon
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KC:

I want to say first off. My post, and ya'll know who w/o names, I tried to be generic, but that is hard to do when you have examples in front of you that speak of exactly what you want to say.

I will say.... I have not read all the the stalker thread, I also have not read all of the night crew thread as I fell sleep and missed the whole uproar. Had I been awake I honestly could not tell you if I would have said anything or not. I usually try not to get into fights. BUT, of what I did read, and this is MY opinion only, I felt Neshie had the right to state her opinion (as in her 1st post) and it should have been dropped there and might have been if others had not come in and made her feel attacked. Now from that point on, the little more I read, I think Neshie got way out of line myself and I have no problem stating that to her my friend or not. I did go back and look at the night crew thread and the only thing I mentioned was commending her for standing up for herself. And made reference of cautino coz of the "truck driver" thread awhile back. Did not get into anything else coz didn't know anything else.

Anyway KC all that aside. I must say that I am sorry for those that had their feelings hurt on both sides. That is why I posted this.. in hopes that folks will stop and think. I feel that a victim does have the right to tell an abuser how they feel and I think that it might have died there but for some reason on this site as soon as someome speaks their mind thre are 2-5 others that have to come on and chastise them as if they were a mother hen scolding the victim. No wonder the victim fights back. I am not speaking of only Neshie here coz it's happening on alot of threads regarding alot of issues.

As for folks goin to other threads and bashing others here. Yes, KC, I do think that is not right either. But, I also don't think it ok to talk your feelings out on a thread that is not theirs and when the only outcome would be more fighting and no answers for the original poster. It is still wrong to go bash someone behind their backs also. I had a personal situation several weeks ago and I stated my point, was bashed and spoken of in an untrue manner, but I walked. Not that I am afraid to stand up for myself, but for the fact that it was a total waste of time to say anything back. Sometimes it's better to walk, even if it makes you look bad, than to stay and banter. That was my decision.

So, KC, how does this get fixed? What can we do to stop these constant fights on the threads? Those seeking help are just not getting the help they need. I am at a loss. And as another thought just popped into my head... Let's say we come up w/ a solution... it only takes 2 or 3 to keep this crap going. What to do then? Makes my heart heavy.

November 14, 2005
1:58 pm
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I have every right to tell a man who does not respect the rights of women he is disgusting. He called himself a stalker. He called her a whore. Why is entitled to support and I get attacked? He says he wants help? I wonder if TC and others understand the mind of an abuser. THey can say they are remorseful, and they come back and do more harm. As he disrupted our world last night, he probably was out doing whatever he was doing. Do you honestly believe a man who posts a thread saying I AM A STALKER, and claims to call an ex a whore? Why do you give him so much power? I have chosen not to accept men into my life who disrespect women. Please respect that. I deal with them harshly. That is my right. I am not a victim anymore.

November 14, 2005
2:24 pm
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I think that many of us find direct confrontation very distressing. Nonetheless, it is cleansing and appropriate to bring this all out in the open.

It is sometimes quite scary to voice an opinion for fear of being attacked.

I believe in constructive criticism, when it is due.

I believe some is long overdue, that has been avoided for fear of reprisal.

I believe that I am a peacemaker here, having worn the shoes of both an abusive person and a victim.

Abusers and victims alike need to own their own stuff, and stop the attack / counterattack dance. We choose one another for a reason. There is always some part, no matter how small, that is ours to do something about. Victims are absolutely powerless. It is not a healthy stance to take in life, for one's own sake. The moment I got into real freedom from a real abuser was when I ceased being a victim, and saw my own choices, behaviors, responses to life, and took a new path. I recall the day I went into my last counseling session with other abused women, and claimed I was no longer a victim. Abusers who cannot own their own behavior are likewise in trouble within. They would rather lose their relationships sometimes than face their own inner drives for power and control.

Wishing you all peace and growth toward freedom.
Love, Lass

November 14, 2005
2:25 pm
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mamac-

It has been nice knowing you. Take care.

November 14, 2005
2:26 pm
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and especially, give my best to jigsy, She will always be in my prayers.

November 14, 2005
2:29 pm
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kathygy
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I have read a number of threads where people were talking about me and I feel that is wrong. If anyone has anything to say about me, say it directly to me, please.

I feel that I have bene grossly misunderstood by many people on this web site. People have judged me very harshly.

If people don't want to get into an issue about religion and the support threads then all they have to do is not bring religion into the support threads. But it seems to me that many people ignore that guideline or do not understand it and I get slammed for pointing it out.

All I am doing is supporting the separation of religion guideline and that includes bringing in one's religious beliefs. I am not trying to hurt or harm anyone. There have been many instances where this guideline was blantantly ignored but I didn't say a word. But then it seems to be a growing problem and I feel a need to standup and say please follow this guideline for separation of religion. I am sorry if that feels disruptive of a thread but many people do not show a respect for this guideline and that is very frustrating for me.

It seems to me that too many posts have a christian overtone. I am not interested in being on a christian web site. Because we have a separation of religion guideline here it feels safer. If people want to talk about thier religious beliefs or give religious advice then take it to the liberation brews.

There is no guideline which says do not supoort the guidelines. I need to do this for my own safety here.
Maybe there's a softer way I can do that and still be supportive of the thread. But often its not the original poster that brings religion into a thread. The person that does that is responsible for breaking the guideline. I am not.

I will also point out if someone is writing in all caps because first of all it hurts my eyes and is hard to read but it is considered yelling and no yelling is another guideline.

Mamma,

I think the best solution is for everyone to follow ALL of the guidelines and that includes no name calling, (that includes a staker being called names), no judements of another person, treating each other with respect. If everyone would go back and re-read the guidelines I believe everything is there which would make this a more safe and loving place.

November 14, 2005
2:30 pm
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kc30
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Hi Mama
LOL! I get where you were coming from trying to keep names out of it 🙂

For me, I see this as a problem also.

You asked how do we fix it? I believe the answer is simple but application for some will be difficult.

Follow the guidelines. That's it. That's all. The guidelines ask us not to attack, belittle, call names, condescend to others. So let's respect that.

The guidelines call for direct and assertive communication. Let's do that. Except for codependants that's hard to do. So let's learn how! Some good threads are running today on how to communicate effectively.

The guidelines support providing each other feedback in the hopes of aiding each other's recovery. Let's do that too! People don't have to agree with the feedback, but maybe we can be openminded enough to consider the other point of view? Maybe there IS an opportunity for growth that we've been unable to see?

The SC has done a really great job, I think, in laying out guidelines to support growth and healing. If we just do as we are asked to do in the guidelines, we will not have any problems.

"It's not what you say, it's how you say it"....:)

kc

November 14, 2005
2:38 pm
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Kathy!

We must have posted at the same time.

i agree!!

November 14, 2005
3:05 pm
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Kathy.... and KC.....

Kathy: I have offered my hand of friendship to you in libs and even stated that I like you and you are an asset to this site. I only named you in my beginning post coz I didn't want anyone coming in here and starting up w/ the religion thing again. I have had enough of it and I'm sure you have too. I meant you NO harm and I felt I went out of my way to make that clear. I respect where you are coming from; I do understand.

and Kathy, KC, and all one more time.... I DID NOT CALL STALKER NAMES. I called him Stalker coz the name of this thread is "I am a Stalker" It is used as identification.

I may not always get things across like I would like them to come across. I sure do seem to get misunderstood alot. We all do the best we can w/ what we have tho.

November 14, 2005
3:27 pm
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mama,

I was not refering to you about a post to the stalker. I never said you called him a stalker.

I would like to add what the SC said in the liberstion brews as a guide on how to express ourselves:

"This place is about OURSELVES, not about what other people are doing or saying. If we keep that focus, and only talk about ourselves, and pay attention only to how we feel/react to others - rather than how wrong or horrible another person is or has been, then we can be sure we're on track with this site's mission. "

I am guilty of not always following this approach and will keep it in mind for the future.

November 14, 2005
3:34 pm
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Stalking is a criminal offense against women. He called himself a stalker. I am concerned this site would allow a man who admits to currently harming someone and calling her a whore, and showing signs of classic abuse on this site. It is not healthy for the rest of us. There are mens groups for such people and there are the police. THis is not a site for criminals. Not all criminals are people who benefit from counseling. Now this person wreaked havoc on the people who benefit from counseling.

November 14, 2005
3:45 pm
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KathyG, id like to get the site of guid's, where is this info is from:

"This place is about OURSELVES, not about what other people are doing or saying. If we keep that focus, and only talk about ourselves, and pay attention only to how we feel/react to others - rather than how wrong or horrible another person is or has been, then we can be sure we're on track with this site's mission. "

I missed this so maybe I missed more, maybe it was a special post? I did get the message on focussing on ourselves on my question about possible lawsuits question to sc.

November 14, 2005
3:52 pm
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kc30
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Hey mama

Just to be clear, I made no reference to what you may or may not have called anyone else. It's a non-issue for me.

It's easy for issues to get confused, especially when I feel emotional and attacked, which is why I am in support of the guidelines, which ask us to refrain from attacking others.

I have seen this work in my life very effectively...stating my point of view clearly without putting down another for theirs. I also know that I can hear feedback from others much clearer when I don't feel the need to defend myself. That's why I believe in the guideline, and support it as best I can.

The SC has made it known to us that she doesn't have the time to police these threads, and has left it to those who post to respect the guidelines, and gently redirect any who may stray from them, in the hopes of keeping this site a safe place for sharing, growth and recovery.

If not for my love of this site, and utmost respect for the work she has done, I would probably refrain from commenting. But I am glad to have the opportunity to practice assertive, healthy communication. Lord knows I need the practice!!

(((mama))) You seem to have such a soft heart...these upsets can take their toll on sensitive souls (at least, they can on me!). It will all work itself out. I think you have demonstrated caring beyond the call of duty, and I respect your compassion. I can assure you that you do not need to defend or justify anything to me. I'm in NO position to judge or take your inventory, nor are you in need of me doing so!! 🙂

kc

November 14, 2005
3:54 pm
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kc30
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hi sinin

The SC just posted something on the Lib Brews about the mission of the site- it's in the "Toxic" thread. It's a great read, if you're interested 🙂

kc

November 14, 2005
4:04 pm
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sinin,

this is the entirty of the SC's post from the liberation brews:

"
site coordinator
14-Nov-05

Hey everybody.

We are here to listen to each other, not to fix, judge, ignore, or call names or point fingers.

We are here, to listen, learn, & grow for OURSELVES... it's not a battle of who is right or wrong, or what behavior is right or wrong.

We all have a space here to be heard & supported for our "growth & learning efforts", even if they are in the beginning stages, and even if we have done harm to others in the past.

Having different opinions is ok, but they need not be pounded-in, yelled, repeated, or defended.

Please, we can simply state our case rather than grabbing it by the throat and shaking it- - if we do this, we can be assured that we ourselves, have a personal issue with something ... and we need to take ownership of our issues rather than blaming them on other people or people who have harmed us in the past (taking self-ownership for our own internal dissonnance/issues is step #1 in self-growth & change). Lashing out at others DOES NOT fix or heal our issues.

This place is about OURSELVES, not about what other people are doing or saying. If we keep that focus, and only talk about ourselves, and pay attention only to how we feel/react to others - rather than how wrong or horrible another person is or has been, then we can be sure we're on track with this site's mission.

Thanks... 🙂 "

November 14, 2005
6:48 pm
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tks!!

November 15, 2005
3:33 am
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alyssa
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Thank you mama for bringing this up. even knowing the controversy it may cause. I started on this site and loved the ice cream social, and birthdays, and secret admirer threads. I had fun kinda getting to know people on here. but so many threads have turned into arguments and anger. I am trying to learn about my own self and the depression i've found myself in and most of the threads don't turn out to be uplifting and enjoyable to me. I have to say i quit coming onto the site as often as i had been, when one time there was a thread for jigs. I don't remember the thread exactly but it turned to a bad way somehow and it broke my heart. She is a little girl with more maturity then i catch myself with sometimes. She is beautiful, and amazing and is going thru things that i can't imagine going thru. The thread for her that turned inappropriate left me with little desire to return much.

maybe sometimes our fingers type faster then our brains can tell us "bad idea don't say that!" I hope we can get some fun uplifting and helpful threads going.

Thanks again for taking on this topic.

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