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How do you get to the point where you "feel ready" to deal with incest recovery?
June 12, 2007
9:52 pm
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serenity-

Oh, I wasn't mentioning false memory syndrome in response to anything that anyone here wrote... it was something on my mind that I discussed in therapy and then I looked for info on. I posted on Libs about it.

People are going to be upset about many issues related to sexual abuse during the course of a conversation. You are here to get support and/or give it. You are not attacking anyone, you are speaking of your experience.

-ella

June 12, 2007
10:06 pm
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on LIBS Bevdee wrote (and I hope it's okay to cut and paste here...):

bevdee
11-Jun-07

Mzrella

I am going by what you have said in both posts- here on Libs and on the support side, too. because you said it seems disloyal to you to even have books about this subject in your apartment. The apartment your father owns. That's why I asked this - "using the child's dependence to control her; - this might still be going on?"

Because I have read your past posts about that apartment- (I can't remember the thread titles) - I have wondered if you feel indebted to your father for the apartment. Once you said something about him lying in bed with you (fairly recently)- is that correct? And how his complaining to you about your mother makes you uncomfortable?

My mother used to "spoil" me. When either me or my sister are in her favor (like a queen!), we receive the largesse of her "love". She showers the person who plays her game with attention, money and gifts. For a while, right after I moved out from the abuser, she told me she would pay half my rent to help me get out of debt. Man, what a price I paid for $200/month! That lasted about 4 months while she gave advice about how I should live my life, and tried to control me. Errands to run, favors to do her, and she always put me in the middle of the manipulative boogie she did with my sister. There are almost always expectations when money is given or loaned in dysfunctional families. I was used to it, but this time it was only 4 months before I bowed up to her and told her I wouldn't play into her manipulations. I mean the money was nice, but I just couldn't play the games anymore. What I had to do, and what I had to pretend - well, the price of repayment was too high.

Are you afraid to leave any evidence of your memories or your suspicions? Would he find them? If he did, what consequences do you believe you would suffer? Would you have to move out of your apartment? I wonder if he is buying your silence?

When I started therapy the first time, it took me the longest longest time to admit to myself that my mother is an addict. It seemed disloyal to me because I was raised in her household and there were subjects that were not to be discussed. Her drug addiction. What she spent her money on. Her affair with the minister. The mental illness and all the problems in her family. "We don't discuss that", "The less said about this the better" or - "Don't tell your daddy about this"

It was very difficult for me to begin to talk about subjects that had been forbidden - taboo. The denial ingrained in me was so great that I too, doubted the authenticity of my memories. Because it had never been discussed, or if I ever brought it up, my authority figure denied it.

Like the physical abuse she inflicted on me. I reminded her once of dragging me by the front of my shirt to the stairwell and and dangling me at the top of the stairs, and she told me."That didnt' happen." When I repeated the conversation to my sister, she said- "Well she's insane or a liar- I was standing right there and I'll never forget it"

But your situation would be different, because if your father did sexually abuse you, it's doubtful he would have done it with witnesses.

If you wanted to start a journal, could you do it here when you are ready?

Hugs to you Miss Mzrella. I know you're having a hard time.

June 12, 2007
10:39 pm
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Bevdee-

Your post has so many good points. Yes, the things about my apartment, my father complaining about my mother to me, and the bed incident... yes, this makes this all very much an issue I can't ignore right now. And I do feel it still going on.

Funny how our parents have selective memories. Like yours, mine do as well. I don't want to say their gifts are like hush money. I don't believe it's quite that sinister. I do believe there is a lack of boundaries however, and many strings attached with things.

Yes, I feel paranoid about leaving things in my apartment. The weird thing is- my father never has, and never will- as far as I can see- snoop through my stuff. It's just that it makes me uncomfortable. I can't explain why. I am angry at my family to a degree, but also what people probably won't understand- I do love them. They are just messed up. I feel like there must have been so much going on in their past. And unlike me, they haven't been getting much help with their issues. I don't believe they set out in life going "I want to have a sick dynamic in my family." I think their own illnesses eclipsed their capabilities as parents and moral judgement.

At this point, I rather learn how to move forward, understand the situation slowly, learn how to like myself rather than focus my anger on them.

However, change must happen. It is life and death for me. And that is no one's responsibility but mine at this stage of the game. I need to take care of the little girl inside me who didn't get what she needed when she was younger, and then move on. I need to nurture myself and learn how to live differently.

I don't think anything "extreme" ever happened to me. I don't think I was raped. I think what happened to me was bad enough, and I will deal with that... if more is revealed, then I will deal with it as it comes. I don't think I buried anything. I was quite aware of my feelings and remember those things that happened clearly enough.

As far as the apartment, I do think my parents just do things for my sister and I out of a sense of pure responsibility. To people who look at that along side of the other stuff they might not believe it. People can be less then 100% awful and my parents are far from it. They tried and did the best they could. Some people are limited and some are sick.

But then again this does remind me of my seven year relationship with an ex who was dealing drugs and eventually cheating on me under my nose. He was attentive, waited on me hand and foot, bought me dinner all the time, took me out, gave me all kinds of gifts including a huge tv, paid for manicures, etc... I had to be TOLD by his friends who felt guilty about letting this go on without me knowing... they liked me and were angry at him. Most likely they weren't real friends anyway, but customers. I had to find a soda case full of heroin before I believed what he was doing. Unreal. I dubbed it "Mafia wife syndrome" : denial (not my man), being manipulated while you are being lied to (look how much I love you, and I'm such a great guy cause I did x, y, and z), being gaslighted, being verbally abused, being betrayed, being bought, being complacent because you now feel so worthless that you fear you can't go anywhere else with your life. Funny how parent child relationships are mirrored in "romantic" ones.

Bevdee, thanks agaain for your thoughtful post.
-ella

June 13, 2007
1:10 am
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Bevdee ~

Ella ~

All I can say is WOW! I have alot of thinking to do about what you two have just posted. "Using a child's dependence to control her" - that hit home hard!

And "I need to take care of the little girl inside of me who didn't get what she needed when she was younger, and then move on. I need to nurture myself and learn to live differently." - I need to learn HOW to nurture myself. I have been trying to but it is hard when you have never been nurtured. I said I was looking for a 'mom' in my relationships because I don't know how to nurture myself, I wanted my 'others' to nurture me. I know I am holding (don't know what to call him....he was my first love..maybe I should call him that) my first love at arm's length (he really does nurture me and loves nurturing me) because I need to learn to nurture myself without relying on his nurturing of me. I have just been so - confused? - lately. I just don't want to feel used and abused and then discarded when people no longer have any 'use' for me...like a piece of garbage or something.

June 13, 2007
8:50 pm
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Bevdee-

"I need to learn HOW to nurture myself. I have been trying to but it is hard when you have never been nurtured."

Yeah, you are so right.

For me, I have never been bored, even when I was depressed. Early in life, I wasn't lonely. (This is recent). But at certain points I would say very young "Mommy I feel EMPTY." I think at first she said "Hungry?" I remember saying no- but I couldn't explain. It was sadness I was describing I think, but a special kind- one where you have a need for something that just isn't there. Right now I think my life force is so weak that that is what it is. I am definitely lonely, no doubt, but even when I go out with friends I feel this way. I have so many interests, but I can't feel passionate about them any more.

This is a really horrible confession, but the only time I didn't feel these awful feelings was during the most destructive and dangerous part of my life. When I was getting high and dating my ex. I haven't dated any one since I left him- (January '06). And I don't want to. It was weird how someone so bad for me was the person I loved the most in my whole life. I don't think I'll ever feel that way about another person. Sick huh? I feel like I miss him, though if he shows up again (which is possible) I would never speak to him. When I think about it too much it makes me ashamed and it still makes me cry. For all the strength I gained here I really thought at this point it would go away.

I do believe that unhealthy parenting leads to sick relationships (duh), and right now I am really feeling the effects of that. I am so petrified of my next relationship. I will be so sensitive and scared of being hurt. It just hurts a lot because I want to have love in my life. I am angry that I will never have a family, from the looks of it, and if I did, I'd probably fuck it up because of how I was raised. YOu can't change that crap, and it takes so long to work on.. I'll be 90 before the oppression of it starts to lift.

What you say about being used and abused and discarded- that is exactly what I am afraid of. I'm tired and I don't want to put my energy into people who do not respect me anymore. I'm just so lonely.

-ella

June 14, 2007
1:39 am
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Ella, Bevdee, Cary, Ali, truthbtold ~

Where does one start in learning to nurture oneself? How does one begin to nurture oneself?

And after one starts to nurture oneself, how does one continue to nurture oneself?

Especially, if one was never nurtured as a child and has had no children to nurture as well.

Red

June 14, 2007
2:54 am
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fantas
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Good thread, Here is a website that deals with self nurturing.

http://www.asca.org.au/survivo.....uring.html

The biggest help for me has been to learn to replace the term selfish with selfcare. As a codependent, I had no boundaries and I didn't ever consider my own needs. I couldn't separate what I called selfish from selfcare. I still struggle with this but I am so much better. I try to do things that I like and want. I am still learning exactly what most of these things are...This site looks helpful...

June 14, 2007
10:35 am
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fantas ~

THANK YOU for that website address!

I have added it to 'my favorites' and have printed some of it out!

This looks very promising for me!

I cannot thank you enough!

I am glad that it also deals with self esteem, stress, relaxation, dealing with shame and blame - there are many subjects that it touches on that I definitely need to read and apply to myself.

Talking to other survivors on this thread is tremendously theraputic to me! I always have felt 'alone' with what I had gone through. Especially the last 15 or so years, when the flashbacks of the sexual abuse started and I had been diagnosed with PTSD and panic disorder followed by depression. I hate that cycle. Do most of survivors have that 'cycle' as well?

Mine is:

Something 'triggers' a memory or flashback, then I have a panic attack, which could range from mild to severe, then after the panic attack, I go into a depressive mode, which can also range from mild to severe. I guess the depressive mode is when I beat myself up alot.

One therapist described 'depression' as 'anger turned inwards'? Does anyone else think that as well?

June 14, 2007
2:52 pm
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Oh geeze you guys. This is so exciting! Yes it is like an onion. Start peeling off those layers of rationalizations. Wow -yhea talk about the multiple personalities of the false self/mind/ego whatever you want to call it check this out -
a great spot for some of you to start would be the introduction to big mind by Genpo Roshi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....38;search=

Hope you have good internet connections. You'll be wanting to check out Ken Wilbers work on the mystic heart too. Genpo has a really powerful way of integrating a lot of what some of you have been going through. It's really good. Do searches on youtube for Byron Katie, Genpo, Ken wilber, Eckhart Tolle all this stuff has come out in the last 20 years or so.

Alot of the counselors and therapists have been trained too early or not interested in following what is going on. They are like I'm an old dog and I can't learn new tricks. I've only found one and I've gone through about a dozen in my search who has the knowledge to keep up with me. This is pretty much all I've done since my husband had his affair.

For me it has become very exciting and fun to peel off the layers of the onion down to my True Self. Depression was key to getting to know my soul. I used all that pain and suffering as rocket fuel to propel me on my path. Try to get a good guide/sponsor as it can be life shattering to have all your thoughts and beliefs ripped apart and have them shown to have no base at all.

Watch out for.. hmm.. lack of a better word, Kundalini complications. Google it if you start to go into Yoga, meditation etc. It is important as the Dr.s may think you are going insane. Watch out for those Dr.s. They can be just as bad as those old therapists that liked to do lombotomies on people. There is nothing wrong with you. You don't need fixing. You're okay just like you are. Really know that. Believe it. Get the help but be gentle on yourself. Anti-depressants can be a kindness as long as you are still working on the issues. Don't take them like insulin.

For me the 12 step programs are an excellent place to meet up with other seekers. Just know it is the ego at first that does the seeking. Ironically enough as of course it is the ego that is the cause of all the pain and suffering in the first place. Eckhart says it is like the Chief of Police is looking for the arsonist when really the arsonist is The Chief of Police. lol

The ego will seek but not want you to know. The ego will try to take credit for everything but the key is humility. It is only by the Grace of God/the now/consciousness/etc. that a person can receive the gifts. All this can get messy and confusing but keep pushing ahead. Take that leap into the higher power, higher intuition right brain thinking. There are undreamed of rewards. The meek shall inherit the earth. Hi meek, sensitive people. I love you. 🙂

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