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His 13 yr old gave him an ultimatum
July 4, 2009
1:13 am
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Hepburn
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So my bf arrives 3 hours late with no phone call. So I'm already pissed. Then he tells me his 13 yr old daughter gave him an ultimatum that it's either ME or them ( all 3 children). So unless he stops seeing me, she's not going to see him. Of course the evil x wife is at the bottom of all of this.

The thing that infuriates me is that he doesn't know what to do! I told him he might as well just get his stuff and leave. I didn't really say much except that that was just ridiculous.

Once again he's letting the witch from hell and his children (because of her, obviously) run him around. He's a grown man. I just wish he'd act like it.

I left the room saying, "Once again, I'm treated like shit".

It's always been a package deal with HER. It's her and the kids. Unless he agrees to break up with me, she's not going to let him see the kids. She doesn't care about the court system.

Anyway, he left.

July 4, 2009
1:18 am
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fantas
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(((Hepburn))),

I'm really sorry about this. He may be a grown man, but he clearly isn't a grown up. How can he let anyone dictate how he lives his life. Maybe you should make this easier on him and just let him go. You definitely deserve better than he is doing. It may look like his ex and the children are running his life but he is the one who really is, whether he realized it or not. Today he made a decision to succumb to blackmail. Who knows what they will ask for next. Obviously his ex doesn't respect him and neither do the kids. I can't imagine that you respect him either. The man has no backbone.

July 4, 2009
4:21 am
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Hepburn
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Hey fantas, thanks for the hug. You're right, he's lacking in the backbone area! AND it is sooooo blackmail!

He came back and we talked. I pretty much said your words verbatum (sp)! HA

I understand it's because of his kids, it's been a sticky situation. But he said he's going to step up to the plate. He knows it's not his daughter, it's her mother. I don't think the daughter even knows what she's saying. The daughter is in survivor mode.

It's just taken him TOO long to take the blinders off when it comes to their mother. It's the ol "but she's the mother of my children" syndrome. He's starting to realize that that doesn't mean he has to put up with her crap. He's just feeling guilty.....about everything.

Ugh, I'm exhausted.

Anyway, thanks fantas.

July 4, 2009
7:28 am
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It No Longer Matters
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Oh Hepburn {{{{hugs}}}}}

Bitsy

July 4, 2009
10:26 am
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Lanigirl
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Oh Hep,

You sound like such a good person. No one should have you sitting in the back seat. I don't remember but how long have you been with this man?

July 4, 2009
11:00 am
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CAMER
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oooh Hep, when i first started dating my now bf...the "ex" was awful, but it never came to the point of the kids seeing there dad, and I get along well with the kids.

I think your bf has to decide what/who is important and never settle, and know that he has rights and visitation with his kids....maybe the ex needs a lil' wake up call, cus the kids could end up hurt/messed up from the ex filling their minds trash. As fantas said...yep blackmail.....not good with the kids involved.

July 4, 2009
1:29 pm
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Hepburn
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(((Bitsy, Lani, CAMER)))

Thanks you guys. Gawd, so much drama!

Lani, we've been together for a year and 3 months. He was only separated for 7 months when we got together.

This has been an ongoing thing with him and his x for 2 years now. I understand how hard it is for him. She uses the children as a weapon. She doesn't care about visitation, she just lies and tells the court that the kids don't want to see him.

Anyway, as a codie I've got to figure out how much I want to put up with. On one hand I don't want to abandon him, on the other, where are my boundaries? The thing that scares me a little, is this woman seems like she will do anything to make his life miserable, because she's not getting her way. And what is it that she wants? Him to go back to her. Obviously she doesn't care about the emotional welfare of her children. She's really just a bully. And how does one deal with bullies?

If there could be a picture describing what a Narcissist looked like, it would be her.

How do you reason with a person who is unreasonable?

July 4, 2009
3:04 pm
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through_the_fire
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Hepburn,

This is just an observation that may or may not be helpful, so take it with a grain of salt. But it isn't the ex. Yes, she may be a pain, but your bf is behaving the way he is, and doesn't from what you've said, seem to be wholeheartedly for you and your relationship with him.

Don't make any excuses for what his actions are. Avoid thinking of it in terms of the "crazy ex". Are you being treated well, respected and counted? If the answer is no, or often not, then what are you getting from this situation?

Just my thoughts. Things I wish someone had said to me at different times. Again, it might not be useful to you, but my intentions are for it to be.

Fire

July 4, 2009
3:29 pm
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atalose
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My thoughts are along the same line as through_the_fire, the focus shouldn’t be on the ex and her behavior but more on HIS reactions to those behaviors. If he wishes to be emotionally blackmailed by her that is going to be his choice no matter how much it affects you.

How often does he get his kids?

Sounds like the ex wasn’t planning on him getting a GF so soon, something else you may want to think about, is he even really ready for another relationship because it doesn’t sound like he’s fully ended the last one.

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

July 4, 2009
5:36 pm
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soofoo
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Hep,

That sucks. So sorry you are going through this!

Your BF sounds insecure. This is really a discipline problem with the 13 year old that should be nipped right in the bud. Children should not run their parent's lives.

I understand that this could throw him off kilter, and he might not know what to say immediately. My pre-teen is verbally quite gifted and can say some things that throw me for a loop sometimes. Sometimes I have to send him to his room and say we will discuss this later just so I can figure out how to respond.

But there is no way I would let one of my kids pull a stunt like that. It makes absolutely no difference what the other parent said or put in my kid's head. The other parent is irrelevant here. I would be sure not to mention the other parent as that is exactly what they want.

I would be very clear with my child that he is not in charge of my relationship. That under no circumstances will he ever tell me who to date or not to date. Moreover, he has no authority to disown me on behalf of his brothers and sisters or even himself. There will be court ordered parenting time with me whether he likes it or not. Period. I would be clear that I am his mother and I'm not going to just walk away because he doesn't like who I'm dating. I'm forever. No one has to like it.

Then I would console my mate.

July 5, 2009
2:55 pm
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Hepburn
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(((Fire, atalose, soofoo)))

You all are awesome! Lots of good stuff here.

Well, Fire & atalose, I was thinking along the same lines in regards to how HE reacts to what his x throws at him. She is pretty calculating. She takes a few weeks off from harassing him, and them comes up with something that just blindsides him. And ME! HA

When I asked him if he's heard from her, he said, "no, but I'm sure she's cooking up something".

How often does he get his kids? The only one that will see him is his 7 yr old, and it's supposed to be on Sunday's. Sometimes the x just won't show up, then she'll leave a message on his phone saying the daughter didn't want to see him that day, because he's not being nice to her mommy. It's insidious. Or she just won't show up without any explanation. So all he can do is file a police report. Which is what he does. I think he's on report # 9 or 10.

Not only did she not expect him to have a gf, when SHE filed for divorce (2 years ago), she expected him to go back to her. And since she's not getting her way, she uses the children against him.

I wish it were that cut and dry, black and white. Then I wouldn't have to have these long winded responses. HA

soofoo-he is insecure. His life was his children, and now he's paying the price for wearing blinders with his x.

Being a mother myself, I can imagine what I would feel like if my kids father poisoned them against me. It's horrific.

He's going to write a letter to his daughter, stating that he's allowed to have a life and that he hopes she'll want to be a part of it. It's her choice.

Now he has to figure out a way of getting the letter to her before the x confiscates it. Because that's what she does.

BTW, he's supposed to have therapy sessions with his kids, (court ordered) every 2 weeks. The x keeps canceling them. He's had 2 sessions with them in 3 months.

Ok, so with all HIS drama going on, it is starting to affect me. This is why lately he and I have been arguing. Because I do feel like I'm in a 3 way relationship.

The other night when the blackmail stuff came down, was the night he went to give her the child support check. I asked him, "WHY ARE YOU SEEING HER TO GIVE HER THE CHECK?!" Because EVERYTIME he sees her, she just gives him a bunch of shit. There are many different ways for her to get her money. Then he told me it's because he gets to physically see the kids.

Arrrrgg. To him it's worth putting up with her crap, just so he can get a glimpse of his kids. Meanwhile, I'm sitting at home looking at an ice cold dinner.

He's got to get it together!

July 5, 2009
3:16 pm
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atalose
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It sound like he’s caught up in the drama and chaos, maybe it even fills some part of his ego to know how much his ex is distraught with his new relationship.

Because if he truly wanted to end this drama he’d get a good lawyer and be done with all the police reports and hand delivering the child support check.

She is going against court orders and he’s allowing her to, guess he some how does enjoy this drama.

Counseling with his kids should be by far the single most important issue on the table right now and he’s shying away from that and allowing his ex to control everything, WHY?

He says he’s doing it all so he can see his kids for moments here and there but come on does he really think this is the way to mend the wombs his ex has caused between him and his kids?

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

July 5, 2009
3:33 pm
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Hepburn
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Hey atalose--yeah, he's called the therapist, he's called the kids lawyer.......They don't do anything, they don't even return his calls. It's the mother's word against his. If the mother says the kids don't want to see their father, and the kids confirm that, then that's about it.

He's just STARTING to see how any kind of interacting with her just leads to a dead end. I've suggested a lawyer from the beginning. She doesn't have one either, and he said he checked into it and he can't afford it.

He has it in his head, and he keeps telling me that "She is the mother of his children". She's a fricken psycho case. Bottom line is he still "trusts" her.

So as long as that's going to be his way of looking at her, then he and I aren't going to make it. I don't want to be in a 3 way relationship with her.

July 5, 2009
8:39 pm
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soofoo
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Hep,
This is fishy.

Why should it make any difference if the kids don't want to see him? In my state, kids don't get to choose stuff like that until they are 16.

When it is my ex's parenting time, if my kids don't want to go, I tell them they can call their dad and ask. If he says no, then it's no. But he picks them up. Why doesn't your bf pick his own kids up?

July 5, 2009
10:14 pm
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Hepburn
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Hi soofoo,

The x is letting them choose. Plus she has told them that their father doesn't pay "enough" money and that he has abandoned them. That if he really loved them he would go back to living with them.

This info came from his 13 yr old. who told him this in one of the 2 therapy sessions they've had together. The therapist even told the daughter that her mother should not be involving them in any of the financial situations.

Here's a good one; A friend of his and her daughter go to the same school that his youngest daughter goes to. His friend was talking to the x and his 13 yr old at the school. The x saw my bf and told the 13 yr old to go "hide" because your father's coming......My bf's friend couldn't believe her ears. She has since stopped talking to the x and told my bf what she witnessed. This is just one of many incidents.

You know, I've heard of x's being like this and doing nasty things before, but I've never been so close to it.

Normal divorced people do what you mentioned above. She is not normal. And he's got extremely low self-esteem. He's afraid of her. And as long as he is, she will always have control over him.

Apparently the kids therapist said that he shouldn't push them into anything. So not only is he afraid of her but he's afraid of his kids too. Thing is he never had a chance with them. The day he left was the day the x started the bad mouthing.

July 6, 2009
1:43 am
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sdesigns
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Hep: You know I have known about this "relationship" from the beginning. I often gave you my heartfelt opinions about it.

You objected to my opinions, you chewed me out,spit me out as to what I had to saY.

I would like you to look back to your posts many MANY MANY months ago about lnf and see what has changed ( or ahem, ...not changed). You haven't mentioned on this thread his lack of steady employment or contribution to your household, how you financially support him, his infidelities,etc.) And I know you're going to jump me and defend him just like you always have- but are you seeing thru others opinions what's going on? Maybe make a list of the positives vs the negatives and see what you are getting(or not getting)

I don't change my opinion of him from way back when when you got so pissed off at me. I call them as I see them and from what you continue to write week after week, month after month, year after year, it doeasn't change. Others have told you the same as I have (MsG and G- man for example) the same exact thing and you turn a blind eye.

But here you are complaining about the same things you complained about a yeaR AGO.

So,,, the question is... and this is whaT I TRIED TO GET YOU to look at before you got so angry with me... is WHY do you engage with a man who has so many problems???

The answer is ALWAYS with US, and why we allow these men and their chaotic lives to take us over.

I remember one of our convo's where you were furious with me and said i"m not going to break up with him!!!

And my opinion is why the hell not? What, for God's sake are you getting out of this?? especially as this continues- what are you getting out of it???

From where I sit- its the same old drama, and it is never going to change.

So - what- if any- boundaries do you have regarding lnf? How many years are you going to waste on him???

Can you list the positives vs the negatives and honestly say what he is adding to your life and to your future?

Or can you admit that you need to have this drama and turmoil in your life?

I am NOT the bad guy here even though you don't like what I say. But good gawd, this has gone on for so f'g long and you're singing the same song.

And I suppose your'e gOing to bLamE ME for all of your probleMs and saY i'M JEALOUS AND WHATEVER YOU CAN COME UP WITH- BUT IN THE END- you are THE ONE with lnf and the life you choose to lead and it has nothihg to do with me and your accusations aND EXCUSE AS TO WHY YOU DON'T WANT TO LOok REALISTICALLY AT YOUR SITUATION.

As said above, the ex has little to do with it. At this oiint it has to do with why YOU would allow a man who ia in this situation to become part of your life?

Its nothing to do with me, the ex, it has to do with YOU.

sd

July 6, 2009
2:06 am
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Hepburn
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Sorry sd if you're sick of hearing me complain. You can always just skip this thread and not read it.

I honestly don't see why you care. You made it VERY clear many months ago that you don't like him and you didn't want to talk to me either, so I left the thread and you alone.

I respected "your" thread, so please have the courtesy to respect mine.

Hep

July 6, 2009
2:27 am
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Hepburn
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Oh, and I forgot to mention that another reason why I left the other thread was because for some reason you feel the need to attack me.

We have not posted to each other, in how many months? And your first post to me since that time, is an attack.

July 6, 2009
7:50 am
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autumn128
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Hello Hepburn,

If the court has stated that it's mandatory that the children go to therapy every two weeks, and the ex keeps cancelling, that's against the court order. Your boyfriend should just call the court and let them know she is cancelling. the court will send her a letter telling her she needs to follow the court order, or she will be put in jail for contempt of court.

If your bf's lawyer isn't returning his calls, then he should get a new lawyer.

Also, your bf should definately be paying child support through the court system. He should not be handed this woman money so that he can see his kids. If he has no record of giving her the money, she can turn around and say she never got it. The court will side with her if there is no paper trail of him giving her money. He will end up having to pay her all over again.

Your bf should definately be reaching out to get some help. The court system, even though it is overwhelmed at times, will not put up with her behavior.

Good luck.

Autumn

July 6, 2009
9:28 am
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through_the_fire
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Hepburn,

I have to say-- as much as you see what Sdesigns says as an attack--- what she says makes sense. I very much know how it can feel harsh when someone lays it out like that. I had a friend who said similar things about a relationship I was in. She even told me she no longer wanted to hear the guy's name. And by the way, somehow our friendship survived. Thank goodness the relationship petered out after so much suffering. I see clearly now that she had very valid points.

Now I feel pretty passionately when I see other women caught in dramas, with men who are nothing but constant trouble. It's wrapped up with my own feelings of having spent so many years in an impossible situation. I didn't think I deserved better.

I wish you well, whatever you decide-- but make no mistake--- it's your choice.

Fire

July 6, 2009
9:50 am
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MsGuided
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Hey ((Hep))

Seems you're still propped right on the fence.
It's a long time to be on the fence, being dealt another blow ( the threat from a 13 yr. Old) and seeing how lnf is handling things.

Sure you're upset becuase it is wearing you out.

Yes all of lnf's stuff has and will continue to effect you.

Lots of good points are made here.

lnf is still engaging with his X outside the court system ( maybe he can't afford the buffer of a Lawyer, you hear one side, His lawyer won't be available, none will, if he can't pay, plus mediation, these are huge problems, because his X isn't rational sane or fare) AND he hasn't learned to take control of his situation.

Bottom line he should be able to invest more in your relationship. He still emeshed with a vicarious X and custodial situation. He came to you needing help and still needs help. How much longer is this situation going to continue like this?

Are you getting more depressed and drained from it?

How is the rest of the relationship going? Is there enough time spent where all this drama doesn't effect you both?

There's a lot of chemistry between you 2, but that doesn't matter whatsoever if all the other elements are jumbled around and the battle goes on.

He still isn't ready or free.

This isn't really your fight, isn't what you created unless you want to be a rescuer, and parental model all the time. It does come down to you also, because that's the only thing you can control. Yea, it is about continuing with codependency.

Remeber i also have a parental seeker. Not the same situtation but weaning these guys can be a battle. Some will just never grow up.

Some of it can be tolerated, but some is just way beyond what a person should or can take. Determine where lnf and you reside on the Codependency meter.

Do you feel progress or regression? Is he still asking you to marry ( while he has all this conflict attached)?

You also had hardships with your divorce, managed to pick yourself up, raise your kids, mostly alone, keep a household running and make a good life.

Looking at his past will show you the future. It's a lot of years he allowed his wife to control and abuse him. Does he have it in him to take control of his life completely?

Perhaps looking at the whole picture, making that positive and negative list would help.

Make a list about Now and the future.

Look at the emotional side and the financial side because they go hand in hand. Be honest with yourself what you really want. What's really important and will keep you protected and secure.

Isn't that what a commitment should be about. Love, security, Loyalty, honesty, being able to invest completely in another, having the tools to do so.

You have a LOT to offer.

I haven't got a reference, or a book for that list but you're a smart lady.

I'm on the fence for ya too Hep. It's time to get VERY real with yourself, have that quiet time and write things down. You deserve to be happy and have less stress in your life. You worked a long time for that!

Be Well!

July 6, 2009
10:57 am
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Hepburn,

Just saw this today. I am sorry that you are having to deal with all of this... I know how it feels. I am in a relationship with a man whos grown children pout and control our lives at times (almost always the daughter).

I guess it just never ends, unless the parent is really willing to call their bluff and risk losing them. I don't have children and this is one of the reasons I decided not to; I know too many folk who are wonderful people and have spoiled, selfish, children that run their lives. (I would never try and control my Mother's life.)

He will most likely never change and this 13 year old will continue to use emotional blackmail until he stops it.

I am so sorry that your feelings are the ones that are being hurt and ignored.

Cary

July 6, 2009
11:43 am
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atalose
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I just think its way too much drama all around, the ex, him and now the poor kids are all dysfunctional with no end in sight.

If this has been apart of your relationship all along, guess what, it’s going to be all and more of what to expect. This is only the tip of the ice berg.

I have to agree with soofoo kids don’t get to choose this kind of stuff like not wanting to see there father until they are of age where they can talk with a judge who will then decide.

If he can’t afford a lawyer then he certainly could find free legal help with in his county to help him make motions in court to stop all the nonsense. But as you said he is afraid of her and now he is afraid of his own kids. So I guess if nothing changes, nothing will change. Can you accept that, can you accept that this situation is only going to become worse not better unless your BF does something besides talk,

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

July 6, 2009
11:55 am
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Guess I will be playing "devil's advocate" here, but I hope none of you decide to stone me to death for voicing a differing opinion. The only person in the world whom I have heard make a similar, public observation is Dr. Lara Schlessinger, the talk show psychologist. Here it is.

The victims here are the children. No matter what the issues are between their mother and father, it is the children of divorce who suffer the most for those issues and resultant choices. The reality is that most children of divorce carry deep guilt for their parents' separation and also deeply resent any individual whom their (divorced) parent begins dating. Justifiably so.

Kids should have both mother and father raising them. They need BOTH. And kids of divorced parents wind up living (generally) with one, primary caregiving parent and attempting to sustain visitation privileges with the non-custodial parent. This is an enormous blow, a terrible loss to any child. Visitation is not an equitable substitute for the family environment which they have lost from the divorce of their parents.

When one parent begins dating, deeply needed attention and affection goes to an "outsider." This naturally generates alot of emotional pain, stress, resentment and an awareness that they come in a poor "second place" to the new love of their dad (or mom's) life. And this hurts a child deeply. There is no getting around it.

Even if children put a mask on their pain and attempt to form a genuine friendship with the new lady in dad's life, they really have little choice. It's maintain the peace, accept the new interloper who is dating Dad, sleeping with Dad, living with Dad...or see less of him.

From the child's perspective, I believe (as does Dr. Lara) that divorced parents should not even consider dating, until their youngest has finished high school. To do otherwise is just plain selfish. I don't subscribe to the current, politically correct position that the divorced parents have a "right" to personal happiness. I believe their primary duty is to provide as much support, reassurance and devotion to their already-wounded children, as possible. Dating, sleeping or living with a new "partner" hurts those kids and leaves lifelong wounds.

With a deep breath, knowing I will probably take a pounding for advocating on behalf of the minor children of divorce...

- Ma Strong

July 6, 2009
12:11 pm
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autumn128
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Okay Ma,

Love ya, so I'm not gonna stone you to death and you do make some valid points, But I am going to have to disagree with you and Dr.Lara here.

I believe that divorced parents most certainly need to put their childs feelings at the front of the line. I think what this means is that both of these parents need to put aside their anger for each other and love their children and still provide a healthy and loving household in each separate household.

When I married my ex husband, he had a five year old daughter. Her mother and my ex deeply respected each other in front of her, even though they didn't always get along. Then I came along, and I had to make room in my life for a five year old that wasn't even mine.

All three of us, my ex, his ex and myself loved this child and provided for her emotionally and financially.

Today, she is 22 years old. Just graduated from Ohio State University with a double major and with honors. She is a wonderful young woman with many talents and a heart of gold. She is the product of a divorced household where her father remarried and her mother dated. She is normal and well adjusted in society. She is currently dating.

I think the reason why so many children that come from divorce are struggling so bad is because the parents can't set aside thier own hatred for each other and do what's best for the child. That's not because of divorce, it's because the parents are selfish and immatue, in my opinion anyway.

Autumn

(((Ma)))

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