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Hi guys - eating crow - free spirit
January 25, 2006
10:41 pm
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free spirit
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Hi everyone,

I haven't posted for awhile, partly because I wasn't quite sure on which thread I should post! The no contact thread is out as I am back in contact with my guy and have been for about a week now, I guess.

I am conflicted about it, to say the least. We had a long talk after many days of no contact on my part. He owned most of his behavior (about 85%), I'd say and apologized profusely for hurting me. I had found out he was involved with others after he lead me know we had a committed relationship. There were also issues around communication and strain in the relationship for a number of reasons.

Anyway, we talked one night for hours and agreed to see each other which we did last weekend when he traveled here to see me (it has always been a long distance relationship, we live about two hours from one another). The visit was wonderful and I agreed with myself to suspend all communication about where we are, etc. I am content to leave it open-ended (the only way it can be in my mind) at this point. I have not questioned him about the status of his other relationships or who he has been seeing, as I want it to be open for both of us at this point.

I am very cautious at this point, and determined that I will not go back to the "old" relationship with him and told him so very bluntly. I do think he has missed me as much as I have missed him and I do believe he loves me. Whether or not he can love me in a true, honest, way remains to be seen at this point.

I do not know how to classify the relationship, I do not even technically consider that we are "dating", and I am going to see others at this point, and hope that he does as well. I do know that I still love him fiercely, but will never allow it to develop into a "toxic" relationship again (I hope). We will not be committed at this point, fair game!!

Maybe I am completely setting myself up for hurt and heartache, I don't know. I was relatively certain he is a Narcissist, but find myself questioning that in light of some of the pieces that do not fit. (He was never overtly abusive, did have moments of withdrawing his contact, one temper tantrum, and seems moody at times). I am not one to tolerate much abuse, so I do not think this will be an issue for me. I have zero tolerance for physical abuse and this has never occurred.

Okay guys, let me have it! Am I completely eating fooling myself, in denial? i don't know at this point, but am not obsessing about it and refuse to give up my "game plan" of working on myself first!!

In all seriousness I would sincerely welcome any and all feedback from all of you and will look for responses!

free spirit

January 26, 2006
6:09 am
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snowlover
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Hugs free spirirt,

I havent been posting for the SAME reason!! My situation sounds exactly like yours, and i wonder if Im in denaial as well right now.

All I can tell you is what my therapist told me. Youre the only one in the ralationship with him right now, youre the only one that can control your actions, reactions, what you will and wont tolerate, and what it is you want or expect from him.

If you feel that giving him another chance is what you want to do, then you need to be prepared for hurt that MAY come with it. Set boundaries, be willing to stick to them, and never stop working on yourself. Be aware of past behaviors on both of your parts, and be on the look out for red flags.

I personally cant tell you NOT to do it, because Im doing the exact same thing. Maybe we should start staying in touch with each other better and sharing whats going on, since we seem to be in the same boat right now.

I know how you feel sweetie, trust me..I do. Sometimes...the risk seems worth it though, doesnt it?

Hugs......Snow

January 26, 2006
8:08 am
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hopeful for change
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I know how you guys feel. It's almost like being embarrassed to say you've gone back. With me it seems like going back into denial,hoping it will all change. I personally don't want to be sucked back in when I have finally started to make progress. Maybe we have to try until we are done. I don't know.

We always threaten that if they keep whatever behavior up we will be gone. One day we truly will be. I guess when we have finally had enough. ATleast thats how I feel.

January 26, 2006
2:08 pm
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Notsure
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Hi Free Spirit and Snowlover,

Based on what you two wrote about your relationships in past threads, I think that the two of you are not only in denial but are also making a mistake going back to try again with your ex's but that is only MY opinion.

Both of you have to do what you think is best for you, and if that means going back and trying so be it.
It is your decisions after all.

I know that these are support threads and I think that they do a remarkable job. Where I have a personal problem is that I see how much time was spent by others (posting, reading,analysing and responding to your situations) in trying to understand what you guys were/are going through and then going out on a limb by offering advice to you two in order to genuinely try and help you.

It now all seems to be wasted time by so many whose advice and suggestions (based on the facts presented by you) were given and it seems to have been all for nothing.

I know from personal experience (and believe me I have had more than my fair share) that it is hard for the brain (inteligence side) to over rule the emotional side.

However, based on the stuff that you two gave in your posts and the advice recieved I thought both of you were receptive to standing firm as you both knew what was the smart thing and the best thing to do. I was wrong but I guess that this is what addictions are all about.

I do sincerely hope that it does work out for the two of you as I do like that people be both succesful and happy.

However in this case I am notsure (hence the choice some time ago of my name) but hope that if it doesn't work out you that won't be asking for advice again as at least from me you got it and mine won't change and I will participate in neither drama.

Having said that you do need to do what you think is best for yourselves. Just post an email that says that things are great and the relationships healthy and strong, and maybe I too can eat a little crow. Good luck. Regards. Notsure

January 26, 2006
3:15 pm
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kathygy
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I have the same feelings.

Free spirit you said you still love him fiercely. I suspect this will be your down fall. I have been in your situation and no matter what I start off saying to myself I still end up right back to the same place I was in before.

It sounds like you are in denial that you can control your feelings and reactions and emotions around this man. Just so you can justify seeing him. The more you are around him the more you will get pulled back in, the more you will drop your guard. I know how this works.

"I do believe he loves me. Whether or not he can love me in a true, honest, way remains to be seen at this point. "

Based on this what good is the 'love' do you?

It sounds like you are trying to talk yourself into believing you want things to be open-ended. But do you really want that, deep in your heart of hearts? I doubt it if you love him 'fiercely'.

January 26, 2006
3:18 pm
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free spirit
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Hi everyone,

First of all, sorry for the errors in my original post (don't know where that word "eating" in the middle of a sentence came from, maybe a Freudian slip LOL)

Snow and Hopeful - thanks for your posts/support, it is much appreciated! I do know I felt I had to be accountable to myself and ppl on this board, so needed to let others know where I was in terms of contact, etc. I hope to guide myself through this with the best of intentions including setting personal boundaries, and following my heart and head.

Notsure - your post gave me much to think about, thanks for the input. I will say, I do not consider the support/advice I have received here in any way a waste of time and sincerely hope others do not as well. I am always open to input and requested it on this thread. I am very willing to hear it, but want to know I can post here without fear of repercussions.

It also pointed out a struggle I have with myself as far as support vs enabling. I have looked for support here and try to give it to others as well. I have on occasion asked for advice too. While I value open, honest opinions, I would like to think as well that others respect my choices.

Where does one draw the line in supporting others choices without enabling them? Does that mean if I do not chose the course of action that is deemed to be the best in one's mind, that they should not support me?

I truly do not know if this is the best course of action for me at this point or not, and believe I will know over time if the choice I made is wrong. I know what I want in a relationship with my significant other and will not compromise my needs when I eventually am back in a committed relationship, whether it be with this guy or someone in the future.

This is part of the reason I hesitated to post about my status. I remember feeling conflicted when Snow posted that she was back in her relationship partly because I was envious that I didn't feel I could have mine. Partly because I was afraid for her. I realized at that time that every relationship is very different and she made the best choice she could and I would support it as her choice.

I do not expect anyone to participate in a "drama" as I do not want that for my own life. I am looking for peace, serentiy and happiness at this point in my life. If my choices do not bring that to my life, I will reevaluate and make changes.

I would certainly like to feel strongly that this is a safe place to post, "safe" in this case meaning that no one considers that the support was "all for nothing" in the least, or loses respect for me as a person because of my choices.

To the contrary, the learning I have done while on this site has been invaluable to me and I have grown as a person due to this site. I have more clearly defined what I want in a relationship, what is realistic and what my boundaries are at this point. I do not consider any of that a waste of time at all. For me it is a process.

I hope I have said what I need to say without offending anyone! Sorry to ramble and thanks if you make it through this post!

free spirit

January 26, 2006
3:19 pm
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henu
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That is one thing abouyt this site I find enjoyable,is the fact we can get many differant thaughts and advise but, inevidably we do what we want.Never forget in the end all dessisions remain with you and you have total control of your own life.

January 26, 2006
3:33 pm
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You have only to be accountable to yourself, freespirit. As for this place, take what works and leave the rest. It's completely safe, so long as you keep it in perspective that it's an anonymous forum and not monitored by any official group.

If advice we see upsets us, we should consider it, because it's touched a nerve for some reason, probably adding credence to a niggling doubt that we wish we didn't have. Try not to ignore that.

I hope all keep going well for you. Stay strong, and stay alert.

January 26, 2006
3:48 pm
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free spirit
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Thank you Kathygy, Henu and Gingerleigh for the input - I can't post long as I'm at work and I want to process your responses.

Thanks particularly kathy - I was hoping for your input as it is always on target and makes me think, which I need to do carefully at this point!

January 26, 2006
9:42 pm
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free spirit
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Hey Snow,

I would love to keep in touch, how are things going for you, btw?

free spirit

January 27, 2006
12:54 am
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lala33
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i've been in your situation. not sure what to tell you except you definitely should not sleep with him until he states that he is only dating you, etc. i don't see why you should get all wrapped up in him while he dating other people. he'll just think he can do this all the time, which encourages bad treatment. if you want a real chance with this guy, keep your distance physically for a while. it will also allow you to be more level-headed. if he can't deal with that, then you have your answer- good riddance to him. i've been thru this so i know this is tough , but you need to place yourself ahead of this guy if you want this to work long term

June 7, 2006
12:09 pm
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Free Spirit,

I am ashamed that I didn't know much about you, so I searched the boards for your name and found this thread. I cannot believe how startlingly similar our experiences are at appx. the same time!

What happened at the end of this? Or should I ask, how did it end?--2b

June 7, 2006
5:13 pm
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free spirit
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Hi 2B - thanks for taking time to look! That relationship ended right after this thread. The visit in January was the last time I saw him. I wished him farewell (in my mind) about a week after that and never contacted him again. He tried to call a couple of times, but it was the same old pattern and I was done with it. It, however, left some permanent "tracks" on my heart. The first time my heart was ever completely broken! I was head over heels in love with that guy for a long time.

He lives away from here so I never have to see him. He still texts from time to time but I completely ignore them. I do not think he will call again because he hates rejection.

I am 95% of the way over this, helped by journalling, counseling, etc. I wish him well and am sorry for him because I know he is incapable of loving the way you and I do and thus I believe he will never be happy or fulfilled in a traditional relationship. Not my problem anymore though...whew!

I remember reading about your heartbreak with your ex-fiance very vividly when I first found this site, I lurked for a long time, almost afraid to be vulnerable and post.

I always thought you handled that break-up with so much class and dignity....you rock 2B and I was so proud of you!

Sorry, I almost overlooked this thread and was so surprised to see it on the board today! I also posted at length on the Narcissism threads for awhile..god so much pain then, it would be ugly reading!

We have come along way, baby 😉

June 7, 2006
6:00 pm
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(((free spirit)))

June 8, 2006
5:34 pm
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free spirit
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Thanks Matteo for the hugs!!

Bump for 2B

June 9, 2006
11:12 am
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Hi Free...Wanted to let you know I'm here...I'll be back later...love to you...2b

June 9, 2006
1:19 pm
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Hey free...

Very funny about the narcissism. I was just asking a friend yesterday about that, I didn't think Dr. Boobies was, but your guesses were pretty good about his history: He was the youngest of three. His parents did not have a lot of money, but it seemed they gave the children or at least him a lot. He was a fat child, too. He is ok looking, he's short, and balding with salt and pepper gray, and kind of pudgy. He told me on our third date that he had never gone out with someone sexy before. I think he is very insecure and hides behind his profession, his airplane, and his "stuff" as he said one time of his house and posessions, worry about someone getting "all this" and he did the hand wave. He had a shrine size portrait of himself as a child on the wall to the left of the front door of his house, and many pictures of himself throughout the house. As far as the "keep it interesting" comments, I should be infuriated! That's just the tip of the iceberg with things that he said...Instead, I feel more hurt than angry.

I may not seem like it, free, but I am getting over it. It's been very difficult, and I had to get myself back into counseling back in April because I couldn't understand why I couldn't stop thinking and obsessing about him.

Everyone, everyone, tells me that he is SO bad for me. I want to believe that it wasn't me, it was him...that I couldn't have done anything else right. That is my truth. I shouldn't have let myself get sucked in with him...I didn't trust my gut when he said he wanted to date exclusively after three dates...I wasn't ready, but I was so tired of being sad about ex-ex, that I thought, what the heck, I'll give it a whirl.

How long did you guys date? It's only been since January, and you are doing fantastic! I love your attitude and positive personality, free. You have helped me so much.

June 9, 2006
3:40 pm
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Free...If it's ok, I am going to use this thread to post some things about Dr. I'd like your opinion as to whether or not you think some of this fits into charmer/abuser or narcissism. I worry that I am just trying to fit him into a "box" so that I feel better? Does that makes sense? I want there to be an explanation for his behavior...It was so absurd at times. Also, can you point me in the direction of the threads that you posted on? I wonder if the reading would help? I just read something that was posted by Worried_Dad regarding the "cut and run" n. and I thing that is what has happened with Dr.

So, here are some of the things that he did/said:

Was extremely critical. Told me that he wouldn't take me to his Christmas party because the year before he brought a date, and his staffed talked about her behind his back, saying that her calves needed work. He was an extremely impatient person, and often crabby and irritable when we talked. He pinched me two times, once on the inner leg, and once in the back when we were walking into the movie theater. Not love pinches, either. He told me he was a puzzle, he said, "don't try to figure me out". He loved doing puzzles, too. When he was three years old, he could put together adult puzzles. There was a short article written about him in the local paper which he had hanging in his bathroom above the toilet. He was a compulsive spender. He couldn't go ANYWHERE without buying something. He also told me that he had owned about 25 different cars in his lifetime. He had told me that his wife got upset when he would get a different car every three months. I asked him if he treated people/relationships like cars. He said he didn't think so. He told me that he like the challenge of the "deal" In buying homes, cars, and other things.

His tagline on match.com was "not burned yet!" When I asked him about it, he said it was a play on words, since he was a burn dr., and he had never been burned in a relationship. His marriage lasted nine months, he said that everything looked good on paper. He said the final straw was when his wife went to Florida with her parents and her son, and didn't invite him to go along on the trip. During the week she was away, he bought a house, had all of his stuff packed up and moved out, and filed for divorce. He said that they had tried counseling but the counselor said that there was no chance of saving the marriage. He told me also that the counselor (who was a catholic priest) told him that he "just needed to go out and get laid".

He was good to his mother, but he complained about everybody wanting something from him all of the time. After we had been dating for 3 weeks, I walked into his house after not seeing him for a few days, and said "Oh, you didn't tell me you were getting new lights in your kitchen". In a very snippy voice he said "I don't have to tell you everything." I said, Ok...man of mystery, but I was just taken aback.

By all outward appearances, he is the perfect guy. He has a great job, he's very intelligent, he has many interests, he goes to church, he has donated time to do surgeries in Viet Nam and India...that is why all of this is so confusing to me.

I know I am spending a lot of time talking about him, but as I said, I want to believe that he fits into some description of abuser.

June 9, 2006
4:06 pm
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free spirit
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HI 2B,

Thank you so much for all the nice things you said about me - it warmed my heart!

I wanted to let you know I'm here and wanted to read your description of the doctor again and think about it to respond.

I think it's a great idea to use this thread for that purpose - we'll analyze him and with it will come peace of mind and freedom for you.

2B - I think you are recovering just fine from the doctor. You do not have to rush the process. Respect your need to be where you are with him and your feelings for him. There is no timetable for hurt feelings.

I suspect several of us, I know myself and probably you and Matteo as well do not give of ourselves half-heartedly. We go for the full ride. Sometimes that makes recovery a bit harder, but you know what? I would not choose to do it any other way. Anything that is worth doing is worth doing all the way!!

We are good-hearted people who give of ourselves because of our love and kindness to others. We choose to be vulnerable because we want to love and trust. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, even if we get burned two or three or ten times before we are done!

I'm going to read the info in the second post and I'll try to respond before the day is out, if not this evening!

Take care 2B - you CCW!

June 9, 2006
4:21 pm
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Free...no hurry on the response! I am going to leave soon and won't be back on the computer til tomorrow. I'm going to journal about this...and I have more stuff to add. It's cathartic for me, and I feel "safe" here talking about it.

Thank you again for sharing your insight and wisdom. YOU are neat woman, and I agree with you, we give of ourselves in the true sense of love. Freely.

Have fun tonight! CCW's unite! (I am sure you'll be with more CCW's)

June 10, 2006
4:18 pm
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free spirit
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Hi 2B,

I had a great time with my friends last night and boy did I need it! Hope you are having a good weekend.

Okay, let's take the doctor apart a bit! I think it's good that you are talking about it, it is carthartic (sp?) I journalled a lot about my ex and I think it really helped. I do so understand that need to make sense of his behavior.

I don't like to put ppl in boxes either, but sometimes it does help to understand. A set of behaviors that has definite characteristics can be diagnosed. The label itself is not necessarily important, but it helps us know who to react, respond I think. For me that's the important thing.

First to answer your questions about my ex. I was with him for four years, happy for about 1 1/2 of those, and unhappy the rest although I tried to hang on. He, I believe could be diagnosed a Narcissist without any question in my mind. His behavior looked so similiar to others with Narcissism that it was sometimes eerie.

The hallmarks of the "N" person are an abusive childhood which leads to formation of a personality structure which is very different from the norm. My ex was very dependent upon the narcissistic supply the adoration, he got, particularly from women.

He had tremendous difficulty in parts of his life because of the N behavior. He was very "entitled", meaning he felt he was due the best things in life even if he did not work for them. He also had trouble taking responsibity, with honesty, and had basically no empathy for others although this was very hard to see because he had learned to demonstrate something that looked very much like the real thing.

The clues for me were to see the differences in what he said and how he acted. In many ways, his actions demonstrated a callousness and often cruelty that he would never say with words. It took me almost 3 1/2 years to see all this and a counselor to point it out and "diagnose" him with NPD.

Okay, now for doctor -

The puzzle skills are easy, he shows a real talent for spatial orientation (one part of IQ) I don't think that means anything about his personality structure, necessarily.

The critism - This is a symptom of Narcissism, but does not necessarily mean he has that. I think it could be a reflection of his general unhappiness with himself and thus, probably is very pessimistic about everything and life.

The pinching is a control thing IMHO. This probably would have escalated to other types of physical violence had you stayed with him. Was he verbally controlling or manipulative as well? Sounds like he could be.

The compulsive spending is probably his attempt to make him happy. Having things might make him superficially happy for awhile, thus sort-of a quick fix, you know. But probably wears off quickly, thus resulting in his attempt to gain the temporary happiness again by buying something else. Could also be his attempt to generate a feeling of security for himself by surrounding himself with the things.

His belief about his tagline is bizarre. I would respectfully disagree with him about not getting burned yet in a relationship. I think he was burned in his marriage and find it very interesting that he does not acknowledge the lack of success there. Any marriage which was never consumated and only lasted nine months was not a success. The way he left that marriage is very frightening to me because it shows a complete disregard to human feelings and callousness. To pack-up, move and file for divorce while she was gone is an incredible act of cruelty in my opinion.

I do not believe his assertations about the counselor telling him to "get laid" or that there was no hope for the marriage. I believe he exaggerated that or interpreted it that way in his own mind. There are a lot of "bad" counselors out there and he could have run into one, I guess. But a priest would never tell him to "just get laid" I would hope.

It also sounds to me like he has inserted himself firmly in a victim role in his life. The statements about only wanting someone to be nice to him and the complaints that everyone wants something from him indicate that.

Many people who are troubled do things like he does (church, charity work, etc) because they understand these are things that people do. They maybe searching for fulfillment or just keeping up appearances in doing "good work".

2B - I hope this is a start for bringing some clarity to this for you. I don't know if you wanted all this info, and keep in mind it is all just my opinion. I hope it doesn't sound like a "know it all" or ridiculous. I am fascinated by "Psychology", the science of human behavior.

There is no question that he is abusive and was abusive to you. Kudos to you for getting out after such a short time. I think these types of relationships leave us confused and struggling to understand because they don't make sense to us, and they are chaotic. We try to feel better by putting some order to them and understanding. I don't think there is anything wrong with that at all!!

If you want to talk some more about him and his behavior we can continue to examine it, or if you don't feel it's useful we can just talk about the pieces that are still hard for you to understand. I did this endlessly with myself before I was comfortable with the end of my relationship with my ex.

Matteo could add some very useful info if she checks in here as well.

Based on the info you have, I don't think we have a specific profile for him yet, we could look some more or stop.

In the end, it doesn't matter how exactly he "fits" into a specific set of characteristics, personallity structure, or profile. The only thing that matters is that you are comfortable with your feelings around it.

No part of this was yours, 2B! I'm so glad you're out of this relationship. I don't think this guy leads a happy life and I think you deserve one of those! You are an incredible person 2B and deserve happiness. The doctor will probably never be happy with himself, his life, or anyone in it, good calves or not! He probably will not be able to change that if it has been in place for years and years.

June 11, 2006
8:39 pm
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Dear free...I will elaborate more later on your response, I am on the computer for a brief period of time.

I read "Curing Narcissism" (I think that's the title) I cannot express how reading that that thread helped me this weekend. I think I have been looking for answers since March of 2005, and have not been impacted by information like I have with that thread. I was touched, and humbled by the sharing of information and responses by those involved in some way with "N's". It made me REALLY think about what I have been doing and where I am in the healing process.

Thank you again for allowing me to lean on you...I'll be back in the a.m.

With love and hugs--2b

June 11, 2006
9:34 pm
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((((2b:))))

I hope you don't mind me chiming in but when I read the above about Dr. Boobies, it just made me cringe. I was wondering what his positive traits were, and I don't see many. I am so sorry you had to experience him. Free spirit has done a good job of nailing him.

You may have heard of this book, but Ladeska (Charmer/ Abuser thread author) recommended it to me and it had quite an impact on me as to understanding men similar to your Dr., my ex, etc. It is called "How To Spot A Dangerous Man before you get involved" by Sandra Brown. Since you have already been involved I think it will make perfect sense to you. It is not only about physically dangerous men, but emotionally dangerous men, as your Dr is. It focuses on their traits, how to recognize them, and how ingrained their behaviors are. It urges walking away when you start to see the many red flags, and helps to understand that no matter how they got the way they are, they will always behave in the same manner. The big impact on me was that it puts the responsibility on us to see these things and to react properly in regards to our own self preservation. I have read it so many times, dog earred it, underlined many many passages- I strongly recommend it. SD

June 12, 2006
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Free...again, thank you for taking the time to give me your thoughts on Doctor. I value what you have today, and think that your experience, and the experience of others with this type of personality is helpful.

I worried that I was trying to fit him into some type so that I didn't have to assume any responsibility for my part in the relationship...but his behavior was so extreme, I knew that there must be something besides just being a commitmentphobic, which is how I had classified him until now. I see that there more to it than that...he was mean to me, and he even said to me one time, "I haven't treated you very nice". I ignored all of the red flags with him. I remember seeing the Charmer/Abuser threads and the N threads at the time of all of the turmoil and thinking that it wasn't him. I also think I was in some form of denial becauase how could a PLASTIC SURGEON who WENT TO CHURCH EVERY SUNDAY who was the PILOT OF HIS OWN TWIN-ENGINE PLANE and who TREATED HIS MOTHER LIKE A QUEEN and was EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT AND WELL EDUCATED have a personality disorder? It had to be something that I did...

I had vowed to do everything right in this relationship, I wanted to give him all of the space that he needed...on our third date he told me that he would "check out" for sometimes days at a time...I made a mental note that he needed lots of latitude. I don't believe that he was a liar, but I do believe that he was very secretive. I tried to respect his autonomy, as I need autonomy too...there is so much more to tell, so much more that I want to say....I have been afraid to face it because I didn't want the "relationship" to be over.

I have been thinking of contacting since I responded to his break-up email back in February. I have kept myself from contacting by telling myself that I would see how I feel by his birthday...I was hoping that he would call me or email me and tell me what a mistake he'd made. I was holding onto hope, and I was obsessed. Now I have sent the email, and I have vowed that I will not contact him again. As much as the loss of the dream hurts, I hope I never see or hear from him again. I suppose it was my closure, in a strange way.

SD: I read so much of your experience. I will buy that book, because there is a definite pattern to the men I am attracted to, and I need help in understanding myself, and making better choices.

I cannnot believe how much the encounter with Doctor hurt me. In many, many ways, it was worse than the end of ex-ex. Ex Ex didn't love me, but he didn't "charm" me like Doctor did.

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