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Hey everybody
January 20, 2001
3:50 pm
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kitten
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How is everyone??? We here in the Northeast are dealing with snow at the moment. Gosh, I am sick of it. One good sign, however, is the movement of the geese. They have started to move north, which, according to my grandmother, means an early Spring. I certainly hope so. These days without sunshine suck the life out of me. Time to look for the tulips...

Molly, how are you? I've been thinking about you. Is everything ok? Maybe it's my scorpio intuition--but I had to check on you!!!

And Tez, are you basking in the sunshine? It is summer there, is it not? Pleeeeeeaaassseee send us some of your warmth (figurativly and literally)!

Will check back soon. I've just started classes again...looks like a busy semester.

K

January 20, 2001
5:16 pm
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Kitten.
The temperature here is 30 degrees C. (86 degrees F). It's too bloody hot for me. How about packaging some of that snow and sending it over to me here. I went ballroom dancing last night and ended up a lather of sweat. Not nice! But the ballroom dancing was though. šŸ™‚ Very romantic, hehe....

As for anger and vitriolics in my writings - despite what some people seem to think - I never post if I am in a sh...ty mood.:-) I try to nurture myself through it first. I try to be as rational and as objective as I possibly can be. That's the engineer coming out in me; I guess.

Nice to hear from you.

January 20, 2001
7:17 pm
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kitten
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Oh, what a lovely picture...dancing around the ballroom in a swirl of sweat...hehe, you're right, it's very romantic! But, my dear man, not as romantic as being out in a dense cover of snow, flakes sticking to your eyelashes, freezing your nose, and swelling your lips until they are blue and puffy. Egad, not exactly what I would call a beautiful sight. I, having been born in the tropics, am more suited to the sheer dresses of summer and a slight dampness along the curling neck tendrils of hair. I would prefer the warm glow to this ungodly white death any time. And for the record, 86 is not all that hot (at least not in my book). Anything under 70 is freezing!
I get a giggle when you say the words nurture and engineer in the same sentence. It brings up a lovely vision of a man in a suit complete with hard hat talking about jumping in a warm bubble bath while sipping a cup of chamomile tea, and the whift of scented candles. One of my professors who is in private practice always talks about his engineers (we have one of the best engineering schools in the nation close by) who come in for marriage counseling. They are very concrete (need constant proof of things) while their wives are emotional. Guess it is all part of that search for the other half thing. Consequently, I always think of engineers as being too intellectual to be intuitive (using Kiersey's temperment sorter as a basis). You must be the rare exception. Or maybe you are a master of illusion...ah ha, another reference to the shaman thing. Enough, I'm rambling...the snow is starting to affect me...bring on the Prozac!!! Talk soon...good to hear from you, too, Tez, tell me more about this romance...sounds nice!

January 21, 2001
5:07 pm
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Brenda
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this page is sizzling with the flirtatious and sexual steaming notes of tez and kitten...hehe
you guys should get a room....lol

January 22, 2001
8:16 pm
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Brenda
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hmmm all is quiet on this thread now. whooooops.

January 22, 2001
10:36 pm
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kitten
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I was waiting for Tez to respond, but will take the plunge, Brenda. This Juliet has a Romeo with whom to get steamy (some times too damn hot and explosive) and do not mean to, in any way, imply that I wish to do so with another. I am a writer at heart and love to use words to evoke visions. Tez gives me the opportunity to express those talents (or maybe lack of talent for some). Guess I've always felt an intellectual can be sensual as well. I also am one who is learning alot about my body as well as my spirit...it seems most women who are of my age (40) are not comfortable with themselves. I embrace my sensuality/sexuality as part of my personnae, not wishing to use it as a weapon to "bag" a man. We women are like pieces of ripe fruit, no matter what our ages. We should celebrate that! (ok, so I hear all the silly comments everyone is thinking) But, Brenda, join in...use your words to illuminate all the dark shadows of your thoughts. Isn't that what we are here for...to share and from that sharing grow???

January 23, 2001
3:29 pm
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Kitten.

Sorry about the delay in responding. I'm 'snowed' under at the moment. No pun intended.

My dad died at 8.45 am on monday. I am going to his funeral this morning at 10 am. It's now Wednesday 6.26 am(Eastern standard time. We are 12 hours ahead of you,... I think.) So I don't feel very much like talking about romance right now. Sorry about that.

However, I will respond. It might make for the start of an interesting new thread. Romance versus sex. šŸ™‚ I just managed that smiley face.

January 23, 2001
7:36 pm
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Tez, I'm sorry to hear about your father. I remember your discussions about him. I pray for peace in your heart. Valli

January 23, 2001
10:59 pm
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kitten
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Tez,
My heart and prayers go out to you. No matter how old one is when they lose a parent we still respond with a child's heart. Tonight I will light a candle for you and your father. Be at peace, my friend, be at peace...
k

January 24, 2001
3:36 pm
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Thanks all for your kind thoughts.

January 24, 2001
10:31 pm
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kitten
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tez, please don't stay away too long...share if you can. Every day is a step in the process of mourning. Even tho' it is 5 years since my husbands death I am still making those steps. And becoming a better person for it--as will you. Do not let others impede your growth. Blessings.
K

January 25, 2001
5:53 pm
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Kitten.

Thanks for your sharing about your grief experiences. I'm pretty well over most of my grieving. It's been going on for well over a year, having started when dad slipped into advanced dementia. The funeral put the lid on it, ... or so I think at this juncture.

Getting back to the topic of romance, I've heard it said that ballroom dancing is 'foreplay'. I personally don't see it that way. Firstly, the type of ballroom dancing that I do, is social sequence ballroom dancing called Old Time/New Vogue. It originated in the UK and has been added to over the last 70 years by Australian ballroom champions. As I whirl around the floor in a slow waltz, there is a feeling of becoming at one with both my partner and the rest of the synchronously dancing couples. Every couple is within a metre(3-4 feet) of each other without colliding. When dancing with good dancers, every step is synchronised to the beat, direction etc. I sometimes feel a connectedness with the universe that I have only found in deep meditation or within union with that 'special' woman in 'great' sex. As far as the ecstacy of the orgasm goes, I have had comparable ecstatic experiences in meditation - albeit vary rarely. But as far as the ecstacy of connectedness goes, I know why the Sufis (Whirling Dervishes) include dancing in their spiritual practices. I wonder... is cosmic 'connectedness' is behind it all?

How is romance and sex connected? I suspect it is through this universal connectedness that sex with 'special' partners can sometimes produce. I think that this connectedness is what women, perhaps more so than men - but I don't know that for a fact - desire in romantic relationships.

I suspect that men and women who have never known love in childhood are prone to just wanting sex in order to get their 'rocks off' - as it were. Of course we can learn to love. If we couldn't, life for a loveless child would be hopelessly doomed to misery. I've heard it said that during the orgasm, our ego boundaries widen to encompass another. Perhaps it is this liberation from the isolation of self that produces the ecstacy at such moments.

What do you think? Is this the direction in which you wanted to go in your posting of 20-Jan-01? Perhaps you would prefer less left brained analysis and more recounting of emotional experiences or right brained wholistics?

January 25, 2001
8:24 pm
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kitten
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Tez,
Ouch! Your last paragraph is so cut and dry!!! Romance is romance, mate...not a new car. I don't think you can really order up true passion. Either you have it or you don't. I have seen too many people who play at the game of romance when all they really want is for someone to pay attention to them. Romance is more like your ballroom experience (at least for me)...one where you are in step with the other, aware of the merging, the parting, and the re-merging. Yes, even in this perfectness there can be disruptions, occassions where things don't quite work, but yet you know that it will--either now or later. Maybe as a woman who is on the intuitive side, I sense things differently, but I know when things will work and when they won't. And not just with lovers. Call me crazy, but it's a certain kind of knowing. When I am with the man I love I have a sense of knowing him...a sense of revealing myself...the shadows of me, the real kitten...the woman, the child...the one afraid, hesitant, yet knowing and confident. Ah, romance...a powerful force in the lives of many. Can you be truly open to embracing that romance? Willing to risk yourself? To fully know another is to know yourself. To do so would involve facing every shadow, every demon, and to create joy from that knowing. To create! Not just look at and examine, but create. Making love is like taking a brush to a canvas...pouring one's self onto the blankness...stirring the colors to life...
Enough...I'll fall from my soapbox. I must go study!
K

January 26, 2001
3:34 pm
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Kitten.

I'm all for finding the self. It seems to me to be a spiritual journey that terminates in infinity. (a contradiction in terms) šŸ™‚

It seems to me that to really discover who we are is to discover that we are really one, seperateness being an illusion. Now that's romantic! But I have not achieved that yet; I have only an inkling.

January 27, 2001
7:17 pm
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kitten
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Tez,
Methinks you would rather not continue our discussion at the moment. No worries. Will check back to see how you are faring. If I were there I'd give your hand a squeeze and you a knowing smile...
k

January 28, 2001
4:35 pm
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Tez:
Sorry for your loss

In reply to your Romance Vs sex, the loveless child being doomed to misery. I was intriged by this. Would the loveless child in adulthood seek love through sex? Connecting them as one? Afterall is not some attention better than none? A lot of misery is in store for the loveless child!

I think romance is what the poets and great novelists created, esprcially fairytales. Don't get me wrong, I always hope that romance is REAL, but how much of the delusion is due to fairytales?

As 4 sex- biological necessity? Survival reasons?

Could 'Falling in Love' be a biological trick? To pro - create? I read recently that to love somebody is what we do when we have fallen out of love with that person. We learn to love their separateness to ourselves.

Sex and romance, I struggel to make them one, to me one leads to the other, romance is the best part, the games people play, sex is the reality. Romance is following scripts, ie; sending flowers, being late for a date, feminine and masculine roles to follow in romantic scripts.
I enjoy the game though.

January 29, 2001
4:53 pm
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Lewis.

Thanks, mate.

You asked the question, "Would the loveless child in adulthood seek love through sex?" In my opinion, the answer is 'yes'. I am unaware of any formal studies in this regard. But speaking from my own experiences and those of others, I think that for many years, I used sex to both gain validation/affirmation of my self as a person of worth and also as a means of seeking retribution against women in general for the 'sins' of my mother. I wanted to dominate, control, possess... I was one sick puppy for many years. I wasn't sick enough to rape; but I think that I have a small, tiny insight into the psychological state of mind of the rapist. Of course, I am ever conscious of the dangers of over-generalisation.

As for romance, I will stand back and let other folk deal with that for now. I think that if I venture too far into that realm, I will really start pushing buttons in others. They will resent my analytical, left brained approach into that arena of such sweet emotional responses. šŸ™‚

January 29, 2001
10:38 pm
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kitten
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Tez,
Ah, I am swooning....sweet emotional responses eh? No, I do not beleive it is all about emotion. I have this theory which, too, might be considered analytical. In youth love is driven by the need to find someone who can meet our inate genetic plan for making babies. I am attracted to someone who is strong, aggressive, etc. One who will provide genetic material that when matched with my own will produce viable outcome. Most often this mate will be someone who is different from me, thereby ensuring the chance of healthier progeny. If I mate with someone too close to my own attributes I run the risk of producing frail off-spring. This results in marriage to someone who might be in conflict with my own natural personality. At the time he is viewed as charming, exotic, or passionate. Later, when the "baby-time" is over, he becomes overbearing, arrogant, and just down right stupid. This accounts for a great deal of divorces at the ten year mark. When I am past the baby driven stage I will start to look for a mate who can meet my inner desires...the need for nuturing, a companion. Here my choice might be someone who is not so aggressive, not so strong, but rather someone who is a bit more like me. Someone who can understand me and share in the partnership on an equal footing. I have seen this time and time again. Men often re-marry women who look like the first wife to continue the biological driven need. Women, on the other hand have a tighter time schedule so when the time comes to find the "second" husband they want someone who fills their needs. My lover is unlike my husband. He is sensitive, cultured, and emotional. This is the man I want to grow old with...someone I wish to share with. Had my husband lived we never would have made it to the 20 year mark. Although a good breeder, he had absolutly no clue about who I was or a desire to find out. A friend of mine is doing research on this topic and so far he has come to many of the same conclusions from a large pool of subjects. So, Tez, I can be a little scientific at times. Besides, you are the one who brought up the romance issue...I only wanted to know about the dance partner...and how that was progressing. And only because you rarely talk about the subject in the present tense. Wanted to be a bit of a literary voyeur.

January 30, 2001
4:44 pm
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Kitten.

You said, "I only wanted to know about the dance partner...and how that was progressing. And only because you rarely talk about the subject in the present tense. Wanted to be a bit of a literary voyeur."

"Dance partner" , "progressing", "present tense",... interesting keywords.

Well... at the moment is is very humid, muggy, steamy and hot. Dancing last saturday night resulted in a sweat bath. Not very romantic I fear. As for "progress" I'm not sure what criteria to use in ascertaining the state of "progression". Might go dancing tonight, not sure yet.

I watched the movie called "An Officer and a Gentleman." for the fourth time last night. Hmmmm! I saw plenty of unresolved childhood issues and emotions at work under the guise of "romance".

It seems to me that "romance" is indirectly driven by infant survival emotions - frozen beyond the scope of time - that erupt upon perceiving parental, psychological and emotional 'look alikes'. How unromantic of me. šŸ™‚

Am I an intellectual nerd wrapped up in my own embryonic navel gazing? I don't think so. I ballroom dance three times a week. I ride a phallic symbol in the form of a 1100cc motor cycle (Jap Harley look alike). I work out. I create. I live life with a fair bit of passion. Too much at times. It gets me into trouble. I just don't like stuffing that passion into words. The uni taught me not to do this and I can see why.

January 30, 2001
5:32 pm
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Don't check this thread to often, to long to down load, but waiting was worth it. Steamy !! Kitten your scorpio side is showing. I understand the "knowing " you describe.
Tez, I for one have a hard time labeling passion. Its an energy that I feel, that can go from a short blast of rage, to the high from pushing my self in exercise, that lasts far longer than a sexual moment, not that sex is not included in the list. I guess its a drive. What about the high from success, that surge that you get from satisfaction after hard work.
Romance well couldn't that be a societal thing? I mean in different cultures is romance the same thing? Hasn't it changed over time? I am sure some where at some point in time a big hairy stinky cave man could have bonked me over the head and drug me by the hair, to his cave, while some poor skinny female would swoon, saying how romantic???? Real far from the concept of ballroom dancing.
Kitten with respect to your inquiry I am hanging, the girls, with my indifference ( haha) are comming around, and actually calling. My mate has been somewhat stable, he got it when I pointed out the other day that all he has done is complain about my dog, with out rage, I must add, realized that the change in his meds, again effects the rest of the world, and to please be aware. How nice to not get caught up in the drama. Work, well today I committed to full time real estate for a while, while I try to set up a private counseling practice. A new quota on goverment paid insurance billing, while abandoning the private paying clients, and my review to be based on the amount I can bill was my last straw,and my decision maker, not to mention if they need something and their billing quota met, not able to help them. I just can't churn when peoples well being and trust are involved. So another day another adventure. Plus I need to get back to work on my book, re write is in order.

January 30, 2001
10:41 pm
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Tez,
Ma cher, I did not mean to show any disrespect! Nor did I mean to imply that I thought you a nerd (although I do not think riding a bike is a sign of virility--one of my best friends rides and she is very frail and tiny).I did, however, want to be nosey and ask about your "dating" life. It sounded as if you were dancing with one woman in particular. That is why I said present tense... meaning someone you are dating now. It just seemed lovely to think of you being with someone with whom you share many moments of laughter and intimacy. I know you have struggled with the dark demons, as we all have, and I was hoping there was one special lady in your life with which to share the light.

Back to my rude self...yes, sweat can be very romantic. Imagine a large muscular man in a crisp white shirt with the sleeves rolled up slightly to expose strong tanned,forearms. His shirt might cling ever so gently to well developed pecs and firm biceps. Turning to his partner, his breathing a little heavy and shallow, he reaches for her chin, pulling her face close to his.........
(I would say that's romantic, without being too caveman-ish)

Molly,
Glad to hear from you. Yes, I can be such a Scorpio. But I guess, in many ways, it's my passion that has kept me alive--without it I believe I would have done myself in a long time ago.
Private practice, huh? I hope to get my license in the next year or so. Still have a few more credits to get through. I would like to do it out of my house as long as I can develop a following. I guess it all comes down to money...how to make it and how to keep it. My oldest daughter is retarded so I have to make sure that I can provide for her upkeep even if something happens to me. Plus I have two more who will be wanting to go to college in the next four or five years.
I have found that rage can get to me at times. When it does I try to look at what has enraged me. Often it is another person. At that moment I tell myself that rage is actually a way for the other to control me. And I won't give them the satisfaction. Even tho' I am very soft and mushy on the inside, I can be very cold and calculating. I won't give anyone the satisfaction of knowing they got to me. Figure they can get their jollies elsewhere. Now, when I get home in the privacy of my bed that is a different story. Keep the faith, sister...the good times, they are a coming!

Perhaps we should think about doing a #II for this thread...Tez, all, what do you think?

January 31, 2001
4:18 pm
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Yea, start a mark II version. OK by me.

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