Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_TopicIcon
Hey Deb! Tez!
April 17, 2001
6:42 pm
Avatar
vr
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hey Deb, and Tez and everyone. Just thought i'd let you know my computer at home is broken again. A friend is going to put in an internal modem but is doing it FOC so I can't hurry him up. So, hi everyone, I'm alive, I'm happy. How are all of you?

And Deb, I'll email when I get it going again. Sorry if you thought I disappeared. I never thought of posting from work - duh! I probably shouldn't do it too often though.

April 17, 2001
10:50 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Vr.
Computer broken down? My worst night mare!

It's good to see that your still around and are doing well.

I read some of the threads, post seldom these days - only when something grabs me.

April 18, 2001
11:37 am
Avatar
Sal
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Tez, why not start a good philosophical discussion yourself? Pose a thinking question. "A thinking man's only question is whether or not to commit suicide." That was that Nobel prize guy. What do you think? Got a better question? I'm waiting eagerly...

Come on Socratez...

April 18, 2001
4:24 pm
Avatar
Molly
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have sent you a few mails and wondered, figured good things, or broken computer, I remember you complained of the speed before. Things are doing ok, will await your e-mail.

April 19, 2001
7:09 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Sal.

I think that I understand why "that Nobel prize guy" made that statement.

The Buddha said that all life on earth involves suffering (Dukka). There's plenty of evidence for that on this web site alone - and that's coming from people living in affluent countries!

Everything on earth is created, sustained and ultimately destroyed -some things while still in their infancy. Nature is cruel. Is the Creator cruel?

All is transient - nothing permanent.

Why struggle only to lose the ultimate battle for life in the end anyway? Why not avoid the mortifying experiences of old age by 'pulling the pin'- aircraft ejection seat terminology :-)?

Yet we have something that is mind blowing - awareness of 'being'. We can 'experience' and have not yet discovered the limits of that ability.

Is life just about escaping from and/or minimizing suffering - about gaining satisfaction for a never ending sequence of needs while we live?

Conversely, does the 'needer' really exist at all? Is the 'needy self' - as we think we are - an illusion, as some would have use believe? There is a Hindi saying: "All need is greed." Is there an element of truth in that?

April 19, 2001
11:02 pm
Avatar
Sal
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

So the only reason to not "pull the pin" is continuing the discovery?

If we don't have the greedy need to experience and discover, we really do have nothing. Unless there is something on the other side of death. Then, if it's something good, we might as well get there as quickly as possible, and if it's something bad, we really should put all our fearful energy in remaining. Therefore, a thinking person must determine to die promptly, or be able to dismiss and argue away afterlife/death, else he will live in the shadow of fear.Selah...

April 20, 2001
7:04 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Sal.

Who is it that is doing the "needing"?

April 20, 2001
10:58 pm
Avatar
Sal
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Didn't you say we have the 'ability' to experience existence... so you're saying that isn't a need, but an opportunity?

April 21, 2001
6:01 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Sal.

Yes.

Each instant comes to us as a unique opportunity to create our own experiences. For most of us, our past emotional experiences conspire(call it karma, neuroses, conditioning or whatever)to create the emotional content of our 'present'.

However, if we have the self-knowledge and we so choose, each of us can free ourselves of the tyranny of our emotional 'past'. To the degree that we have done that, we can seize the moment and become conscious 'creators' of our successive 'nows'.

April 21, 2001
10:18 pm
Avatar
Sal
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

And you have experienced this?

And after death? Is any 'now' worth enduring/experiencing if all there is, is 'now?' I'm thinking not. But... if there is an afterlife, and most major religions have decided beliefs about it, then perhaps any suffering is worth enduring in light of eternal paradise(or similar 'heavens') OR we should be thankful for these light and temporary trials, and dread death as a possible eternal torture.

So, you are creating your now, and living a life free of the tyranny of your past, but what of your future? How do you reconcile the unknown into the 'now' formula?

Well, now I've broached the afterlife and religion. I don't mean to denigrate the conversation. This is just where my thoughts took me, what I am asking.

I saw a guy today, Tez, and I almost yelled out your name! He had a koala on his window, an Aussie flag in the car, and a hat (that I'm sure has a catchy Aussie name) on his head. I'm sure you would never be quite as unabashed, but it made me think of you. ...You haven't been in the States lately, have you?

April 22, 2001
6:44 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Sal.

Yes. But only for fleeting moments. I am convinced that with enough 'right' thinking and 'right' practice I can and am expanding those moments.

You asked, "And after death?" I'm not sure what you are asking here. Do you mean are there any 'nows' after death? I don't know that. I have only untestable beliefs about that.

You said, "Is any 'now' worth enduring/experiencing if all there is, is 'now?' I'm thinking not." If this is true for you then your are in a state of suffering. It is your attitude to the pain that you might be experiencing that causes the suffering, not necessarily the pain itself. Pain is only a signal that something is threatening out survival. Sometimes (quite often) the signal is invalid.

E.g. I might feel lonely, as soon as I become aware of the loneliness I might think, "this is my lot for the rest of my life" or "no one values me" or many other negative emotion reinforcing thoughts. Then I suffer. The original feeling of loneliness was a primitive survival mechanism to ensure that the herd stayed together. Now, in 'civilised' society, your life is hardly threatened by a dateless Saturday night.

My point is that understanding our true natures enables us to sort out the emotional 'wheat from the chaff'. It allows us to be present to the moment and not living in the misery of the threat of future neediness in our head.

You raise some very good points that I would love to address. But I have a pressing appointment. Will get back to the rest tomorrow.

PS. No - I've never visited the USA.

April 22, 2001
10:23 pm
Avatar
Sal
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Please do respond when you have time.

How do we come to understand our true natures?

I was thinking of other people's suffering, and wondering if 'now' is sufficient to carry them through. My suffering is fleeting.

Look forward to your next post, Socratez.

April 23, 2001
5:33 pm
Avatar
Molly
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

In reading your last few postings regarding attitude, and the now, I experienced exactly what I believe Tez was explaining. If I understood correctly, pardon the story, but I usually go the long way to make my point.
My daughters and I had been extreamly close during their growing years, my eldest up to age 21, then something happend and I was the blame, and the bad guy. Horrible experiences and no explanitation followed for the next two years. My oldest never gave an explanation, or apology, and left me with gaping wounds, and insecurity. Since her incounter with some sort of alternative healer in March, she has made great strides in communication, on a positive level, still no answers, just being in the present. She decided to host a party for the youngest's 21st birthday this Sunday. I truly did not want to go, fear, and intimidation, were at the base of my resistance, as well as comming up against the ex, and his new young girl friend, and all of the relatives on his side of the family, and knowing the gossip, I was certain that I had been throughly trashed. My sister told me not to go, my husband looked for every excuse, and I couldn't force him to go, I mean I could but why? I didn't want to go, like tossing a lamb to the lions. It was a two hour drive, and I refused to allow the anxiety to truly set in, it was however trying to work me. I kept with my mantra of staying in the present, trying to not be self indulgent in being a victim. The oldest was charming with my arrival, showed me around the new house, then the others started to arrive, all ex family, and I had to remember this is not about me. Of course new girlfriend, is cooking in my daughters kitchen, and throughly knows her way around, the conversations are all about all the girls have been doing with their family, and to be honest, I felt like the token minority at an all white party, but its not about me, the past, their interactions,and truly who the heck cares about my old unresolved wounds. It was all a choice of attitude. Now of course since I went up early, and alone although the party was just getting rolling at 5, I still had a 3 hour drive home, I said my good byes and left. Alone in the car, the thoughts invaded my head, and I truly wanted to feel the pain, it hurts going from being the most important person in someone's life, to some one that is casually called once and a while, but I had to focus on the now. I was invited, I was embraced, they were polite, and they are successful independent women, who have strong minds, and are on their own path. It is just the way it is passages. Had I not had such a strong understanding of thoughts being things, and controll over what we empower or not, trust me I could have turned this into a real pity party, or made demands not trusting the sincerity of their present efforts.
This is how we create the now future. Being in the present, fighting those thoughts of the past, that do not serve us, creating the opportunity of new experiences vs creating what we know, and perhaps reliving some how due to our expectations, which is sometimes a bad thing.
I don't know if this answers your questions on a truly surface level Sal, but I think this is what scenario Tez is relating.

April 24, 2001
8:23 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Sal.

Molly's very sincere and poignant posting eloquently illustrates what I was trying to say in my own very inadequate way. Thanks Molly.

You asked, "How do we come to understand our true natures?"

In asking a similar question, a student once asked Ch'an (Chinese Zen) Master Wei Shan (771-853), "What is the way?" The master replied, "No mind is the way." The student said, "Then I am lost!" The master said, "Then go find someone who is not lost?" The student said, "But who is not lost?" The master said, "There is no one but yourself. You must find yourself!"

"The goal of no-mind is to see the world as it really is, not as we think it is.
... ... You will see the universe in a flower and eternity in a momentary smile."

Quotes from the book "Lotus in a Stream"

You said, "I was thinking of other people's suffering, and wondering if 'now' is sufficient to carry them through."

The 'now' is all we really have. There is nothing but the 'now'. Where does the past and the future reside? What we call the 'past' is subjective, biased, terribly flawed and fragmented memory content. The future is fantasy. Both are illusions that we use to construct who we think we are. For most of us, even the 'now' is the child of copulation between our dellusory 'past' and our future expectations. To see everything as it really is, free of both the baggage of our past and our expectations of the future, is to "understand our true natures".

April 24, 2001
10:18 pm
Avatar
Molly
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks Tez, but there is nothing like putting the textbook theory into real life examples for me. Regarding your inadequacy, hehehehe 🙂

April 25, 2001
6:09 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Molly.

Thanks for your thanks.

My inadequacy in expressing in words things that sometimes border on transending words makes accurate communication very, very difficult - if not impossible. I guess, generally speaking, women are better at that aspect than men. I guess that the male struggle for succinctness and precision can result in the sterility and the occlusion of the deeper message.

You did well...

April 26, 2001
12:52 pm
Avatar
Molly
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Again, I thank you. I guess it has something do do with our frontal lobe, which has more emotional circuts, than our male species have, and often more than we need. Don't forget you are the hunter, and need that sterility. hell some one needs to have clarity with all the emotional stirings around you. I appreciate your language of things, it is very clear, and allows others to interpret on their own. I admit,do to my recent lack of sophisticated reading, I do look up some words in the dictionary 🙂 and need to learn how to implement spell check into posting here, just to lazy.
I must own that I believe in the process to be, that my subconcious is constantly sabbotaging my conciousness. My dreams for the last 3 nights have been disturbing, and countering my concious efforts. I guess, until I am better, the analogy I have is like the alcoholic that has committed to abstinance, keeps seeing everywhere the opportunity to indulge, and must constantly remind him self that oh, that isn't going to serve my goals, no matter how alluring the solicitation. Then readjust the attitude. Not deprivation, but opportunity.

April 26, 2001
3:17 pm
Avatar
Sal
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I was wondering if it is like traffic lights. Sometimes I drive down the road, believing I am uniquely blessed because all the lights turn green for me. Alternately, I drive down the road feeling cursed as I hit every red light. Yet traffic lights just are. I dont' hit more green because I'm a better person, nor do I hit more red when I've been 'bad'. My emotions aren't good or bad, either, they just are. If I respond to the feelings (anger, fear) with frustration and desperation and a feeling of being abandoned by all good will, then that is how I act. If on the other hand, I remind myself that I am not in danger, that the red light is a warning for my GOOD, and I accept it and rest in it, then that is how I'll act. Choice in responding to what is not good or bad, punishment or reward, just is.
Then my emotions serve me, as a warning, an alert, a go ahead, etc.

Does that illustrate it, or did I still miss it?

April 26, 2001
7:11 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Sal.

Your traffic lights analogy is a good one. When I am in a fear driven hurry I seemingly hit a red light at every intersection. I doubt that the frequency of occurrences of red lights changes. I suspect that, for me, the importance of hitting a red light is emotional state dependent and thus more noticeable when I am aroused. I notice that during these emotional states my irritation with other drivers is due to my seeing them as obstacles hindering me and reducing my 'control' over obtaining my survival driven 'needs' fulfilment.
The result is much suffering!!

In my earlier postings,I was referring to becoming attached to thoughts and letting the mind run in any and all directions out of control. Such meanderings occlude awareness of what 'really' is.

In my case, I have only recently grasped how deluded my mind is in believing that my thoughts are somehow an accurate reflection of my external 'reality'. When I see a flower I see a very different reality to a florist or a bee. My reality is a function of my emotional and contextual memories as a child of having to weed the garden, a task I hated. Thus I see a flower accompanied by the presence of distasteful past emotional and event memory recall. I cannot consistently just look at the flower anew without being attached to the biased thoughts and emotions that present themselves.

When people experiment with mind altering drugs such as Huxley and Timothy Leary did, they zoomed in on the flower devoid of any other past distortions. They were able to gaze at the flower in ecstatic fascination for extended periods of time. We judged this strange behaviour as an abnormal byproduct of the drugs. Our past conditioning has us seeing a flower petal as a ho hum, unremarkable, everyday thing. Imagine saying to a person who has just lost a loved one, "Never mind, look at this beautiful rose petal." Under such circumstances ourselves, imagine how wonderful it would be to be able to delight in a rose!

I suspect that, if we had our emotional and contextual memories erased but not damaged by that process, we would see the world with all the fascination of the eyes of an infant. Perhaps this is what Christ meant when he reportedly said something like this: "Unless ye become as little children, ye shalt no enter the kingdom of heaven" When I was a Christian, I thought this statement referred to after life rewards. Now I think that it refers very much to this earthly life.

I now believe that with sufficient self-awareness we can regain paradise lost - our lost innocence - and gain the wisdom to chose to practice letting go of thoughts and feelings as fast as they come rather than grasping at and running away with them like a playful monkey. The reward is a new 'aliveness' - a passion for living and relating to others.

April 26, 2001
8:38 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Molly.

You sound like your are on a good path.

You said, "I must own that I believe in the process to be, that my subconcious is constantly sabbotaging my conciousness."

Yes, from my recent readings, it seems that the 'experts' are saying that our conscious thoughts are hatched in the cauldron of the unconscious prior to our awareness of them. It seems that a large aggregate of thoughts accumulate like a volcano until one or more spurt into consciousness like lava samples from the fiery depths. I have found - like many others - that 'letting go' of conscious thoughts and just 'being' settles down the emotions. The consequent, lowering of emotional arousal levels seems to reduce the preponderance of negative unconscious thought aggregates. Thus fewer negative thoughts spurt forth into consciousness and fear arousal levels fall further.

Even, hanging on to positive thoughts seem to lead to suffering sooner or later.

Dreams.... it is only over the last few months that my dreams of suffocating to death have left me. I adopted these almost nightly dreams as a friend and in the middle of the dream I once asked myself what it was that I feared about 'letting go' of struggling to 'stay awake' and allowing myself to die there and then. The answer I got was "I'll lose the plot." I'm still plumbing the depths of that reply.

On a pragmatic level, I've trimmed down to a good weight. I suspect that my dreams were the result of the RAS system of the brain reacting to my sleep apnea caused cessation of breathing. Being slightly overweight exacerbates this sleep condition. However the experiences have been a gift not a handicap. One day I will probable become overweight again, have my familiar old dream, 'let go' and not wake up. But does that really matter? Who is the 'me' who would not be doing the waking up?

April 27, 2001
9:38 am
Avatar
Sal
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

But doesn't that preprogramming serve us in any way? I mean, why is it there? Just to leave us jaded and unable to appreciate things in their natural innocence? Aren't we any wiser? Isn't it productive to see the flower, remember the weeds with some distasteful nostalgia, and then see the true beauty, and perhaps understand the 'why' need for pulling weeds, and feel like a protector of beauty? Even to be able to use this as an analogy is to have learned and gained wisdom regarding gardening and applying to the larger life. You seem to me to be championing the cause of dismissing the wisdom gained, claiming that innocence demands it. I believe in embracing them both. Accepting the memory, AND being able to look at the flower with fresh eyes. Maybe that is what you are saying.

Also, reading your reply to Molly, you seem inconsistently fatalistic. Could you talk more about that?

April 27, 2001
11:39 am
Avatar
Molly
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I look at a garden and appreciate the work, ie., the pulling of the weeds, the diciplin to create the beauty, as well as the natural beauty that the flower has, like the stripes on a tropical fish, or the hard firm body of an athlet, the commitment, effort, etc., I also feel the pain of the effort, thus appreicate it more. Early programming? Raised with negativity, living negativitly, and supported by the experiences, make it difficult to re-frame. the process of adjustment, relearning, release of control. the red light theory is a good one, how many times have we said, why me, why now, when there is no connection, or is there??????

April 27, 2001
5:36 pm
Avatar
Molly
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

p.s. I also recall in one training or another, that when you shut off one emotion, you actuall effect all emotions. Thus a numbness. No high, no low, no joy, no anger. Controlled being????????? Acceptance ?????? Could this also be described as depression?

April 29, 2001
7:46 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

All.

I'm flat out like a lizard drinking at the moment. Sorry I haven't gotten back to respond.

Forum Timezone: UTC -8

Most Users Ever Online: 247

Currently Online:
57 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

onedaythiswillpass: 1134

zarathustra: 562

StronginHim77: 453

free: 433

2013ways: 431

curious64: 408

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 49

Members: 109444

Moderators: 5

Admins: 3

Forum Stats:

Groups: 8

Forums: 74

Topics: 38532

Posts: 714179

Newest Members:

ValeryasaDazy, bujhtrDazy, ArtyomyushkaDazy, wrestlingDazy, cnfhtvbkbfyDazy, inulaDazy

Moderators: arochaIB: 1, devadmin: 9, Tincho: 0, Donn Gruta: 0, Germain Palacios: 0

Administrators: admin: 21, ShiningLight: 572, emily430: 29

Copyright © 2019 MH Sub I, LLC. All rights reserved. Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Cookie Policy | Health Disclaimer