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Help me please!!!!!!
January 8, 2001
7:47 pm
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ranmar1
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Gingerleigh,
Wow is right. We just sat with our two daughters and told them that sometimes when a husband and wife have been together for a long time, they hit a road block and need a "referee" to help them out. This is why we are going to a counselor. I couldn't believe how well and "matter of factly" they took it. I also am starting to realize that this is more of a "trying to find myself in life" experience I think she is going through. I realize that I can't fix this, and that I can only work on myself, while hopefully, she does the same. I told her my needs this morning, that I needed her, I needed the kids and I needed our family intact. I told her she needs to realize what her needs are and try to work in fulfilling those needs too. Our next counseling session is this Friday. I'm actually looking forward to it. I will keep you updated as we go along. Please continue with the feedback, because it gives me a better perspective on this whole thing. Thank you.........

January 9, 2001
1:01 am
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lost soul
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It really give me some in-sight & perspective of "marriage" *sign*

One concerned party trying to work things out. The other party who is so "unclear"

ranmar1
Your wife is very fortunate to have a husband like you. hope things will work out.

January 9, 2001
8:28 pm
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ranmar1
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Lost soul. Thank you for your note. That was really a nice compliment. I think it's time that I "stop being put on the edge of a cliff and then wondering if she is going to push me off." I need to start taking a deep hard look as to how to protect myself and the kids. I'll keep you posted on my thoughts.
Thank you to all who have responded so kindly with your feedback.

January 9, 2001
11:23 pm
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lost soul
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You are welcome!

We are all here to share. I am glad I am able to offer an word of compliment. You deserved it anyway.

I do get lots of advises from other here.

Well, my situation is more or less similar with yours, so I can identified with you.

Take care!

January 11, 2001
12:01 pm
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ranmar1
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Hi to all who are following this. Here is an update.
Last night we had a "sit on the floor" discussion. I told her that now I am feeling not only hurt, but resentful and angry that she did not share her feelings with me over the past year, that she tried to deal with them herself. I told her that married couples lean on each other for support during trying times, and that she didn't give me that opportunity, but instead, blurted out that she thinks she is not cut out to have a one on one relationship. I told her that was a sad commentary. I explained that should she decide to break up our marriage, that the kids, hers and my standard of living is going to be totally affected, and that the kids (contrary to her belief that are strong and resilient and will bounce back after the initial shock)will be devestated and affected for the rest of their lives, not to kid herself. I told her she has to be totally honest with herself and ask if being alone is what she really wants. I said that when the "party is over" all her girlfriends go home to an unhappy relationship, but they go home to someone to share their experiences. She will be coming home to nobody. I asked if she knew anyone who is alone and happy and she responded she did not. I told her that we need to hold each other tightly during this counseling process, because we are both entering an unknown, and don't know how we are going to come out. I finally asked for her to be totally honest with me, and if she already has made up her mind and is just going through the motions of going to counseling to justify in her mind her decision, and she said no, that if she had, she would have resisted going or just not go. I hope the counseling forces her to open up to herself, and find the real truths or problems.
I will keep you updated. Our second counseling session is tomorrow.

January 11, 2001
11:19 pm
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lost soul
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ranmar1

Well done! very mature & sensible thoughts to share with your wife.

Whatever her decision is, she will have to face the consequences in the future.

January 12, 2001
12:22 am
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gingerleigh
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Ranmar, your experience gives me hope, I hope that your wife will come around and work with you, and perhaps too so will my husband. I had to give him THE ULTIMATUM: get counseling or get out, and it was terribly terribly hard to do. But I felt right in my heart and right in my gut about it. I have given him a week to decide, so now I just have to let him be and make the decision. It just sucks to be completely not in control, doesn't it? You can't make someone love you, and, even harder to swallow, you can't make someone love themselves.

Good luck with the next counseling session. At least you yourself are firmly on the path of becoming a complete and happy person! 🙂

January 12, 2001
11:27 am
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ranmar1
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Gingerleigh,
I hope that he comes to his senses and goes to counseling. I don't know if it will turn out successful for me, nor for you, but at least we know in our hearts, that we are doing the right thing in trying to fight to save our relationships. It's amazing how "selfish" the other party is when you think of everything they are doing to the entire family and to themselves. I hope he realizes that you are fighting for both of you. Keep me updated, and I will too.

January 12, 2001
11:30 am
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ranmar1
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Lost Soul,
I just don't want her to hurt herself should she decide to go at it without me. Yes, I know, I need to be more concerned about my feelings, and that has been one of my problems, first caring about her feelings, then mine. Kind of backwards, don't you think?

January 16, 2001
12:34 pm
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ranmar1
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Well, for anyone following these threads, tomorrow I'm going into my third session of counseling, this time, one on one. I'm going to be asking questions like the following and what they mean:
What does it mean when she says she needs excitement and fireworks?
What does it mean when she says she doesn't know if she is cut out to have a one on one relationship with anyone, not just me. What does it mean when she knows she is selfish and it's all about "me"? What does it mean when she says "you have to do things that make you happy, not just do the right thing". What does it mean when my older daughter feels embarrassed by her mothers' clothing, such as trying on and buying a skimpy bathing suit, and then my daughter crying because she says she is embarrassed by her mother's dress. What does it mean when my wife says that my daughter is jealous of her, because she thinks she is competing with my older daughter? What does it mean when my older daughter says Mom acts like a flirt, and doesn't want her around her male friends. What does it mean when I tell my wife that she has accomplished pushing herself away from me, but also has done the same to her two daughters, and she responds that they are too dependent, and need to become more independent int he process?
If you have followed my threads, you probably will notice that I am moving from feelings of grief to almost anger and resentment. I would appreciate any feedback, as I find it theraputic. Thanks to all..........

January 16, 2001
12:56 pm
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Molly
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I think your feelings are appropriate, and on target. Good luck getting even two of the questions asked in one session. Be patient, maybe the counselor, will allow you to give the wife a list to have answers by the next session. Many of your questions sound like confrontational statements, which will put her in a corner, and watch out for that no one likes to be cornered, and we always need an out, or will take a stand to support our denial.

January 16, 2001
7:15 pm
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ranmar1
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Molly,
Thank you for the feedback. How do I get these questions answered without creating confrontation? These are the issues that have caused me great anger and resentment? Do I just let these questions go, and get beyond it? I don't know.........

January 16, 2001
7:32 pm
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R2D2
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Ranmar1, I think you know the answers to these questions don't you? You may just want to hear her say it for some closure.

If the your wife feels this way about your daughter's pain and embarrasment, I don't think there is much hope for her counseling. She seems very defensive of her attitudes. If you and your daughters
want to wait around for her to possibly get through this crisis she is experiencing, that is certainly your perogative. I guess I would be more concerned for getting myself strong and counselled and then standing supportive for my daughters for when they need a strong, guiding, stable parent to lean on and one whom they can rely on to be there for them and not in some sort of second childhood competition.

I have read your thread from the beginning and she just seems so self-absorbed, it's so obvious she wants out at any cost. Who knows what drives spouses to suddenly lose shift their priorities.

I'm glad to see you're getting angry.

Sometimes the best wake-up call for a wayward wife/husband is the knowledge that you won't be patiently waiting when/if they come back to their senses. Making a life without them sometimes is all the motivation they need to get over themselves.

Good luck tomorrow, you're a good guy,

January 16, 2001
10:33 pm
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Molly
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I second what R2D2 stated. In addition, I suggest being very careful co-signing any effort on the part of the girls, or you to make mom look as bad as she really is. I can't give you any real suggestions as how to avoid specific questions that the girls might confront you with, and they will naturally take your side, I do believe that you stated they are in their teens. But,supporting that mom is wrong or bad, or what ever right now, could back fire later. It is easy for them to pick up on what is going on between you two, and they don't need to choose sides, which is natural, and I am sure you will win the battle but perhaps eventually loose the war with the girls. I am having difficulty articulating what I want to, she is acting out so bad, so selfishly, so obviously mid-life stuff, and I don't mean for you to look like an idiot ignoring the change in her and her obvious neglect of responsibilities, but if she feels ganged up on she will just split, what is her loss. I guess when they bring up crap, reinforce marriage, family, and how we all need mom, stable and back home loving us all????????? Try to bring up the good that she has done, try to focus on what she used to do, and how much you miss and need her. Language it loud to the girls so that she the "wife" can hear. Not that I want to take away the anger, but consider this part of the effort. I just know how much they need their mom too, and need to think good of their mom, for their self image. Thank God that you still have it together. I hope I made some sense

January 17, 2001
8:40 am
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R2D2
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I think one way for you to handle your daughter's questions and confusions is to refer them to your wife. After all, these questions you mention are all ABOUT your wife. A low, stable profile would be the position I would take at this time. Just LISTEN to them and their pain, you don't have the answers, nor should you have them. You can't speak for someone else's feelings, especially since you are frustrated by them yourself. Just listen to the girls, hug them, tell them you'll never desert them (emotionally or physically) and mom will always be their mom. She's having a personal crisis of her own right now, nobody knows how it will end, but you will always be there for them.

Molly is right though, you just can't side with the kids and their anger because the minute you do, they will get defensive of her. Plus, they need to feel like they are okay, and her problems don't reflect them in any way. They are OKAY, they are not their mom. Ya know?

If they are angry, let them vent to you, and even to her if they want to. They have the right to do so. Let her handle their anger towards her. Not you. Just listen. If they say "Why is she acting like this??", you could say, "Why do YOU think she acts like this?" Let them reason out and verbalize...you can't possibly have the right answer no matter how hard you try. Their is no right answer.

I also wouldn't be a doormat for her in front of them. If she continues this behavior, I might invite her to leave you and the girls because she is so disrupting their lives and yours. Sometimes it's alot easier to think and see the forest when you aren't surrounded by the trees. You owe it to yourself and your daughters to get some breathing room and space.

At some point you have to cut your losses and call it what it is. How long are you going to let her control the situation and call the shots?

Like I said, being on your own and finding that the grass is not actually greener over here, can be a very rude awakening.

January 17, 2001
10:24 am
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Cici
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Very odd indeed. Your wife's behavior sounds like a return to adolescence. Do you think that your marital relationship in some ways was like parent-child, you being the parent?

January 17, 2001
1:15 pm
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pg lova
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Ramar,

What I am going to suggest that you do is simply pray, for God is in control of every situation. I know you can't see it right now, but in the hard times, He has you in the palm of His hands. Think about it, Doesn't God know how to take care of what belongs to Him? Now, I don't know the reason for the situation, and I can't pretend I do. All I can say is that God does have a reason. I know it hurts, and it's hard, but everything is going to be all right, just because you are created by God. As I go, there are two Bible verses that I would like for you to read

1. Let not your heart be troubled for you believe in God . . . John 14:1a

2. Finally brethren put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes you make be strong and having done everything to stand.

Remember, that you are doing everything that you possibly can, so after you do all you can, you can only stand and allow God to work it out.

God Bless U

January 17, 2001
3:27 pm
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ranmar1
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Thank you all so much. I truly cannot believe the support I am getting from all of you. Today I went to my first one on one counseling session. I explained how I know that I have to deal with myself and fix my own problems. I can't be consumed by her problems, that she has to fix them herself. The counselor advised me that he couldn't believe the progress I have made in dealing with and becoming more in touch with my true emotions. He also stated that he knows she is being defensive, and does have a cold wall built up as a defense, and that he finds it a challenge to find out what really is going on inside her. Her one on one is with him tomorrow. Regarding the girls, I brought up the issue, and he suggested that I do just as you all said, let them question her. I should not make excuses for her. I should continue to let them know I am there for them to talk with. He said I should not dwell on what her decision is, whether to stay or go, but that I should work through the doubt and fear by exercising, eating right, getting rest. It is something I can't control. I also told him that I am beginning to let go of the fear of her meeting with all her girlfriends with their wonderful influences, and that if she isn't smart enough to make her own decisions and opinions without the help of them, then she is really in a heap of trouble that nobody can dig out. I starting to feel okay. I know my feelings are going to shift and change back and forth, but right now, I'm starting to feel a calm, and it feels pretty good. I will be out of town until Monday, 1/22, so I'll write back after that time. Thank you all. You are all so wonderful..........

January 17, 2001
4:13 pm
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gingerleigh
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Just one point that differs a bit with something Molly said (sorry, Lady *grin*) is the part about saying nice things about the "wife" and "mom" in front of the kids. Based on my experience, and I think I'm going through a similar thing with my husband, saying nice stuff either elicits no reaction or an eye-roll. Turning on the attention won't bring her back, only she can bring herself back. Also, telling her what a miserable creature she is being won't help either, not at this point. Just focus on the relationship between you and your children, let "mom" work out her relationship with them herself. She's an adult, let her start acting like one.

Hopefully the counselor will be able to get through to her.

Good luck, write us on your return and update us.

January 17, 2001
11:00 pm
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lost soul
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Have a good trip! Give yourself a break 🙂

January 23, 2001
10:37 am
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ranmar1
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Hi everyone, I'm back from my trip. The time away was very good for me. It allowed me to gather some thoughts and evaluate where I am. I am discovering emotions and feelings through counseling which I never experienced before. On my last session, the counselor (PHD>DR.) said he was quite impressed by the changes he is noticing, even though it has been so quick, and says that whatever the outcome, he feels that "the fruit of my labors will definately bear a wonderful harvest". I'm starting to feel okay about myself. I'm starting to realize that even though I have issues to work through, my wife has tremendous issues. Whether she is willing to accept and work on them is her problem, I cannot control. Should things work out okay, great, we continue to grow together at a different level. Should things not work out, I am prepared to accept that (although I know I will have to work through some terrible emotions at times) but that my life will go on, and I will always be there for my girls, and they will always be a part of my life. This past week my wife had her one on one with the counselor. She said he gave her some tools to work with and some new insight. This Thursday we go back for a couples session, and then at that time, he will recommend what options to pursue for further counseling. When I read back to my original writing, I'm amazed how despondent I was. I'm still not too thrilled, but at least I'm beyond my paralysis and able to start thinking a little more clearly. My wife is missing out on so much happiness and sharing with me, but I cannot control that. She will have to work on her own feelings as I have. I will keep you all updated. Thank you so much for all your wonderful responses. You are all so great and inspiring.

January 23, 2001
4:46 pm
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Alena
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Well, welcome back!

It's great to hear the upbeat tone in your post. You sound optimistic and that's half the battle. Able to see that little light at the end of the tunnel? It's just a teeny tiny glimmer, I know, but it's there and it's only going to get clearer.

How did you feel away from your wife?
Did you guys communicate while you were gone? Did you feel a little more at ease? Sometimes it's so stressfull just being around the other person, it's a relief to be away and think.

Keep us posted, keep up the good work.

January 23, 2001
6:32 pm
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Molly
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acceptance is a tough one, and it sounds like you are working it well. Having hind sight, is such 20/20 vision, it is no wonder that they call or used to call older ones wiser. It is so sad to see the mistakes of the baby boomer generation, and the havoc that has been brought to our children. I sure hope that your wife, can comprehend the potential damage to the children, and get back into the family concept. If there was some way that we could fast forward a tape and see the consequences of our choices, to help us better formulate our decisions, wouldn't life be sweet. No regrets, maybe. Lets hope for devine intervention, keep your focus, you sound great, all considered.

January 23, 2001
8:10 pm
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ranmar1
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I will continue to be the supportive one for our family. She is obviously very confused right now and acting almost indifferent. I heard an interesting tape today that said we usually attract the kind of people who are experiencing or feeling the same. This is so true for her and the kind of friends she hangs with, all with very unhappy relationships. Not one of them can say they are happy in their relationship, but rather tolerating because of finances or moving on with divorce. What a sad bunch of people. I am starting to reach out to other guys for social get togethers, going out for a dinner,a beer, whatever. I don't have many male friends, so this is all terribly new to me. But as I become a little more outgoing and upbeat, I seem to be able to talk about getting together with the "boys". Maybe this is another part of my problem, being too concerned about her and not enough about myself. My girls are everything to me. But I know that if I can't be happy, it will reflect on them as well. Mom has to figure her own way out of this. Counseling is Thursday, as a couple session. To be continued.

January 23, 2001
9:58 pm
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Molly
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Definately, you should have a pack to hang with. I think that is one of the problems that started in the 70's to little time, and crazy expectations that our mate could be our all. Women need other women, and men need male bonding. But for some reason in the 70's it quit being PTA and golf, or church socials, or non-profit organization get togethers, and the XXX clubs became popular, and for women do your own thing, don't be "co-dependent " get a life, which took them from home, and the marriage, and the family responsibilities where suddenly men fell short by bringing home a paycheck, and a woman was inadequate for being a house wife and mother. I swear, I could almost blame it on advertising. Things got really messed up with pop psychology, and financial gain equating with success. I am sure I will take flack for this, but that darn feminist movement I think has caused more damage to our society, than drugs, or alcohol, which combined with identity crisis,supported or caused by this evolution. Women suddenly wanted men to talk, hear, and feel, as well as spend more time with the kids, and men wanted financially independent women, no wonder people stopped getting and staying married, and then lets look at religion, where did the rules go, which despite God, or not, held civilizations together even if it was out of fear, it worked.Now we can't even keep a family together? Who would have ever thought kids would be cutting themselves out of pain due to their existance? Its no wonder most people are depressed, I get depressed when I think about things, but...... all we can do is learn our lessons and keep on keeping on. Our character is all that we have, hopefully if we sway, we get back on tract, and learn from our lessons, as well as the lessons others endured for us. Stand strong. Hold on to what you believe to be right.

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