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Help Me Please x 6 the new beginning
November 26, 2001
9:55 pm
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ranmar
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Ladeska,
Wow, quite an eye opener. Even though my 14 year old thinks she knows everything there is to know in life, I think she really has a grasp as to what really is going on with our situation. I know she loves her mother, and doesn't want to take sides, which is great with me. I don't want them to take sides, hers or mine. I just want them to know there is a difference, there is acceptable behavior, and unacceptable behavior, I want them to know there is some stability in there lives, obviously not with their mother. This is another reason why I have chosen not to go out or "date" as yet. I would like to start talking with others and meeting people, but I need for my daughters to have all of my attention first, to know that I am there for them, always. THis weekend was a fantastic opportunity for them and for me, to see us all together, and having fun. Wacko called my oldest three times yesterday, on our drive home, asking when we would be home, over and over. I plan on bringing up in our next mediation session, how unfair it was of her to call them Thanksgiving evening, crying and causing them to cry at my family get together. I'm not going to let her get away with manipulating them at my expense or theirs. Meantime, the soul searching she said she had done, evidently came out to not finding a soul, because she never brought anything up, which is fine with me. I'm in Arizona tonite, back tomorrow, and then off to Omaha and Salt Lake City until Sunday afternoon, when I get my girls back. Ladeska, you are a good example for me as to why I need to maintain the positive role model for my girls. It must be a little difficult for them, since they are girls, and I am their dad, but I still think they understand that I am there for them, not out partying, golfing, meeting other women, like their mother did.
Take care for now.
Randy

November 27, 2001
11:58 am
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Ladeska
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Oh, no...no,no,no,no....that woman should not be allowed to call those girls and do that shit. Um - no. No. 1 - you guys can monitor those calls. They are still in your care and under your domain, so you can lay down whatever boundary you need to while they are with you concerning whacko being able to pull their strings via their cell phones or just telephone in general. She's got free access to that one and it's a major in-road to them and to you. I'd snip that one in the bud REAL QUICK. Oh, she thinks she's so smart, doesn't she? And the sad thing is - it's all done for no other reason than to just cause heartache and discontent. Then they feel all important and once again - someone is bleeding because of them and the spotlight is back on them.... Yeah, I don't know what kind of restriction I would put on her phone calls, but you can bet your a** there'd be one.

My ex pulled that stunt "one" time with my daughter. He called and wanted her to come visit for the summer, but she didn't want to this time because of how her stepmother treated her and how he never stuck for his own daughter. So, I explained this to him and then he wanted to talk to her. I put her on the phone and he went off on her, said Well, you can just look me up later on in life when you want to know your father and btw, I'm not paying child support anymore either....

Well....needless to say.....she was in tears - I was all over him on the phone after I found out what he said to her. He hung up on me and this was all because - she didn't want to be around the witch. She was 12, btw. So....next day - I called the District Attorney's office and oh...in about a week - the ex calls back and goes WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO? What I did was - turn him in regarding the threat of no child support. He said - Oh my God, they are talking garnishing my wages!!!! I said - well - you said it. He says - I didn't mean it, was just mad. I said - I don't care what you were - you will never, ever tell me that you are not going to support your daughter, especially after you demolished her on the phone. Got news for you - I'll be right there, in your face, every time.

I think that pretty much snipped most of my daughter's feeling for her dad at that point. She was just done after that....broke her heart that he was so nasty to her and it was all over - her wanting him to stick up for her. Typical narcissist though. They do no wrong. Everyone else is to blame and he didn't want to rock the little apple cart at home with the wicked witch. So screw his own daughter's feelings and their relationship. Alrighty then. Like I said before - I have "her". His huge loss. I don't care what he has materially or otherwise. He missed knowing one of the most precious little angels on earth.

You just have to watch the way whacko will play with their minds. She will definitely toy with them and you have to be on top of that one. She will do it mainly with her mouth. Planting twisted little thoughts in their heads. So, do keep the communication door open between you and your girls. The biggest thing with daughters in their teens is you usually have to spend X amount of time with them - before they will open up. You can't just expect them to spill their guts on que. They won't do it. So - you do have to put in the time of just "being with" them.... And that meaning - really being there...and not zoning out. Good eye contact, listening, taking a real interest in what makes them tick. And when they talk - don't butt in... (smile) Daughters want to know - from their Dad - that their Dad "really sees them"...knows them and is a strength who stands beside, guides, inspires, supports and is constant. This.....will enable them to pick a man later that will be a good mate. Otherwise, they will follow in mom's footsteps. But, if you keep doing what you are doing - the seeds you are sowing will overtake the weeds and snuff them out. Life is like that, it feeds on decaying matter and blows into something beautiful.

Stay vigilant with whacko - her busy little hands are going to be constantly grabbing at them - to pull them into the pit with her. Motherly love at work...ain't it special?

The time will come when - it won't be you standing in the gap anymore - it will be your daughters - standing up one by one and going - No more, Mother.... And they will have to do that at some point, but the only way they will know how to do this emotionally and otherwise - is by the example you lay out every day. This is the road map that will mean the world to them. You are their way out of a devastating jungle that they will face on their own regarding their mom... So keep leaving the cookie crumbs along the way. It matters.

November 27, 2001
1:52 pm
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Molly
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Document these times, all the phone calls, it may serve you in the future for full custody. She is so wrapped up in her stuff, she is blind. Period, nothing new right. But in nipping it in the bud, do it legally, demonstrating the emotional abuse, and toll taken on the girls. She never botherd to call three times from the golf course or Mexico, now did she?

November 28, 2001
7:00 pm
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ranmar
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Hey guys, you are going to love this one. This happened last night as I waited for my plane in PHoenix. I'm now in Omaha (23 degrees, oooooohhh). And this happened prior to my reading your post, Ladeska and Molly. I called for the kids, and wacko gets on the phone to ask me something about a warning light coming on in her car. I said to take it to the dealer, I don't have answers for you anymore. Then I proceeded to tell her how unfair, selfish and self centered it was for her to call the girls up on Thanksgiving eve, crying and getting them emotionally charged up. I told her she was completely out of line, and she wouldn't appreciate it if I called over to her parents house xmas eve, when she will have the girls and her family together, and pull the same stunt. She responded that she was feeling so emotionally empty without the girls, that she couldn't control herself. I told her she should have thought about all that when she put everyone in the family in the position they are in now. Then she responds, that the soul searching and crying she has done, was because she wanted to meet with me to tell me how she knows she has made some mistakes, and regrets some things she would like to tell me about in person. She says she can't imagine her life continuing like this, with our girls and between ourselves, living the way we are. I responded, telling how resentful, angry, pissed off and untrustworthy of her I am, and that I think it's a good idea that we continue to be apart, at least until my emotions can calm down and I can look at everything in a better perspective. She then asked why I was travelling so much, and to where, where I responded that it really wasn't any of her business where I am going, or how often, just like she didn't make it my business to tell me when we were married. Then, she responded, oh there you go again, thinking about Earl, and that what I suspect really didn't happen, he was just someone to talk to. I said B>S>>It was inappropriate behavior. I told her for now, this is an okay life for me and my girls, and that I'm not in any position to want to sit over coffee and talk about us right now. She said she understood. Then she tells me she got a part time job for a mortgage broker we know through our temple, and I responded by saying good, welcome to my world of responsibility. I ended the conversation by telling her I didn't want to talk with her anymore right then, that I want to continue to stay apart, until such time, if ever that I think I can sit across a table from her, without wanting to jump across and strangle her for what she has done.
I think the games are beginning. The only problem is she will need two players to play her Narcisstic game.
I'm not willing to participate in this game anymore. I told her it would never be the same, that I have learned so much from this experience, that I will never allow myself to compromise and go along with what I don't think is right..........Best to all for now. I'm off to Salt Lake City tomorrow night. Again, this is not a bad life for now.

November 29, 2001
11:02 am
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Ladeska
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Hm,m,m.....interesting and typical. What I see though is that - she wanted you to leave the door ajar just a little bit and you did do that. There was no finality to what you said and that gives her hope and fuel "for" her games. I just want you to realize that on your part. All she wants is to have a little hope to work with and that will give her all she needs to continue. On the other hand - you may just be doing this to apease her for now, with no intentions of walking back into anything. But, from the way you worded things here, what I understood was - "for now" let's just let things ride as they are "until such time that...." Not coming down on you here and I hope you don't think that, just telling you what I see. Wanting you to be very "aware" here of what you are doing and what she is doing.

Typically, when the door is left ajar like this - a narcissist blooms this little bit of hope into a huge stockpile. That's all they need to fuel whatever delusion because they can't live in a reality where they aren't pulling people's strings. Right now I think she walked away from that discussion with what she needed to hear. She expects to hear you say the strong things you are saying now....you've been doing it for awhile, so that's not news to her. That hurt her, but didn't disable her, just made her change gears.

The trouble is with whacko's like this - now, you've just wetted her appetite for the bigger game.....now she's really digging in her heels. So, just be real honest with yourself here about what you are doing. Are you trying to punish her and make her think about things and maybe leave the door open for her to come back to you at some point, after she's repented and supposedly changed, blah, blah, blah...? Or, are you just playing her right now, with absolutely no intentions of letting her come back into your life, just kind of messing with her in your own way or trying to minimize the stress factor by letting her think she has hope at some point? (don't blame you here for this option, alot of us would do this...but is it wise?)

The thing is - with control freaks playing with them at all, in any fashion is pretty much - alot of b.s. It gets you nowhere. The line in the sand, eventually, needs to be hard and fast and absolute. And at some point, preferably at a time when you are strong and not really beaten up. Either you have to honest with yourself and admit that - you might take her back if she changes her ways or convinces/charms you into believing she has.....OR.....there is no hope, so I'm not going to give her any - at all. Front and center - I'm done and that's that.

I know it feels good to the person in your position to have this power and it's tempting to toy with her, nice to see her wanting you, wanting to come back to what she threw away... But, there's a snag in this because just when you think "you" may be the one in power of all this - if you give her permission to come into your realm with her hope in tow - guess what? Nothing but destruction. You can never underestimate the ability of a snake like this to lure you back into whatever. And they will dedicate quite a bit of time in doing all this, too...it gives them something illicit to do and they love that. Makes them happy, or their version of "happy". They cannot believe or deal with the fact that they can't eventually reel you back in, so they will go after every weakness you have and toy with it.

She can let all your strong statements go by her and pull the ones out that say "maybe in the future something...." and will sit there and plot and scheme saying - come into my web said the spider to the fly....

Oftentimes, when we come out of something like this and feel very powerful because we have overthrown a personality like this in round one, we think erroneously that we can continue to take them down in round two and three and so on. That's a very bad mistake..... They are quite "gifted" at their craft. And as long as you give them an inch - they will continue to take a mile, one way or the other. Never, never, never underestimate the wiles of a snake. They can con, camoflauge, deflect and charm in ways you never thought imaginable.

So, look back over what you wrote here, think about what happened and be very clear with yourself and with her as to "where you are" and where you will or will not be led. It's "okay" for you to have had enough and to not give anyone like this - a second chance, even if - she is the mother of your children. If you allow her, she will wittle you down over time...a little drop of water on the head every day.....will eventually flood you.

I cling to the old rule of - let your Yes be Yes and your No be No. Just be clear about what you want here. Her excuses for herself in what you wrote was total crap. I would have just cut her off and said - Um, I really don't care what your excuses are - the point I'm making clear here is - it "won't" happen again.

What I affectionately call this little game she is trying to do with you now is "dancing". They pride themselves in being able to push you over the edge and then have enough power to bring you back into their clutches. This......is what a narcissist lives for. Be well advised. Believe me...I know all the tricks, have the scars to prove it. God, I sound like a nag in this post, don't I? Sorry....just couldn't let this go by....

November 29, 2001
11:11 am
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Ladeska
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Just wanted to cut and paste these statements here so you could see them together. You did end with a good statement though. That one was sound and to the point, BUT, you did precede that statement with all of these....so with people like her - she will just laugh to herself and go - hm,m,m,m....I've still got my foot in the door....

.....and that I think it's a good idea that we continue to be apart, "at least until my emotions can calm down and I can look at everything in a better perspective".

I told her "for now", this is an "okay life" for me and my girls.

.....that I want to continue to stay apart, "until such time, if ever" that I think I can sit across a table from her..

November 29, 2001
12:09 pm
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Molly
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Randy, please do heed the above warnings. She is getting that reality check, that we have predicted, and at least with a job with the broker, right now she could, and just might make enough money to hold her over, but with the market right now that should only last till spring, real estate is a cycle, and its on its way down, just a couple of decades experience here. But the money should slow some of the whinning, how ever the holidays will continue to create the pain, that she didn't know about.
She is going to do to you what hubby did to me, ugh I've seen the light, ugh look at what I have changed, ugh, I promise yada yada yada, go through those faq's on healthyplace.com again, and you'll see this phase in there. Your going to have each one of your buttons pushed with that fantasy family reunion thing going on, so put up your shields, get that armour plate over your heart, and be firm, committed, or be prepared to be committed.

December 1, 2001
8:56 am
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ranmar
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Ladeska and Molly,
I can't be vulnerable and allow my defensive mechanisms to fail now. I've gone through all the postings, the journals I kept, and replayed everything in my head as to what happened and what was said between her and I. I guess I am just trying to protect myself against further hurt, and being in new territory, am approaching everything with extreme caution. I do know what I will never "settle for" or compromise with. I also know that no matter how it is going to affect the other person, I will always speak my mind and express my feelings, without the fear of intimidating or "rocking the boat". When I talked to her over the phone the other night, and we had this discussion, I was emphatic in expressing how angry and resentful I was toward her for what she has done, not only to me, but to our own kids and to our family, and that if she truly wanted to start a dialogue with me, she would have to go into intensive counseling first. Otherwise, it's just manipulation again on her part, and I'm not interested in any of the game playing. Meantime, I am taking a lady out to lunch next Wednesday, who I works at one of my accounts. She asked me for assistance in finding her a new job, which I told her I would, and then asked her if she would like to have lunch next week (all done via phone). She agreed to, and lo and behold, I think I found her a new employer. She is going to call with the follow up to the new potential. They are very interested in speaking with her. But, I'm wondering if she is still interested in going out to lunch based on business contacts, or possibly a friendship and ????. She has been divorced for eight years, and has one daughter. We discussed being a single parent and parenting via email, while I've been on this trip. She thought I was married, which I told her I was but my status changed in January. Ahh, welcome to the "try to figure this one out" role. I'm here in Salt Lake City still, having to meet with two more accounts today (Saturday). I'm in a downtown high rise hotel, overlooking the city. It's beautiful, with the mountains covered in snow surrounding the city. Tomorrow, I fly home, to my girls. This has been a productive, fun and exhausting trip, starting out in Tucson on Monday, then off to Phoenix, Omaha and finally here. I truly am enjoying it though, as it keeps me going, while being productive. It's really been a blessing, because it has done exactly what I had hoped for, keeping my anger in check, and not constantly thinking about my situation. My God, I can't beleive it will be a in January, that she originally told me she didn't want to be married anymore. I guess we have all been through a lot this past year. I know I've learned so much about myself, my feelings and being in touch with my daughters. Life is pretty good......Molly, I hope things start turning around for you as well. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Beleive me, and you know through all my postings and having stuck with me, that I came from the deepest, darkest tunnel life can throw at you, and if you just keep moving, you are bound to find some light, and head for it. Ladeska, words cannot express how appreciative and gratified I am to have you here, as well as Gingerleigh, Alena and all my other friends here. Have a great weekend everyone........Randy
(P.S> Let me know when you guys are ready for me to start a new thread, if this one is too long.)

December 1, 2001
8:12 pm
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Ladeska
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Good, good, forgive me for ranting, it's the "mother" in me. (smile) Just tell me to shut up, all my kids, adopted and otherwise, do at some point! LOL! But, you seem to have things in check. Just can't warn you enough about her wiles, but you should know better than any of us, eh?

Glad you're staying busy, being productive and gaining a potential new friend. Life is good and we have this present moment so what more could we ask for, right?

Keep rollin' and keep making whacko miserable by living well!!! You've come through alot and no one but you can truly appreciate that. Just don't want you to ever slip backwards. I for one will come after you like a tornado if you do! (smile)

December 2, 2001
2:36 pm
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ranmar
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Ladeska,
I can't afford to go backwards, and suffer the wrath of Ladeska. NO way. I"m in a pretty good state of mind right now. I just hope that I can remain consistent in my thinkings and beliefs. I can always use another "mother" to advise me, and you as well as most others here, seem to have done a fantastic job of allowing me to regain my perspective on things, including myself. I'm heading home today, via Phoenix, so I'm sitting in the airport club in Phoenix right now. Wacko called last night, after I came back from taking myself out for a great dinner, to tell me about a situation with our oldest one and one of her friends. She said she wanted my perspective on it, and said she hoped I would do the same for her. When she was "rambling", I listened to her voice, and thought, "what a rambling, faker". Her attitude was like nothing was wrong, everything is great, and so on. Well, everything is okay with me as far as I'm concerned. Wacko just needs to continue on the course to la la land, and continue to try and figure out what the real world is all about. I enjoy the real world. I don't know and in all candor, really is not my concern if she ever discovers the real world. Best to all.
Randy

December 3, 2001
11:22 am
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Ladeska
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Randy....actually you're doing great. Seem to have a good mindset with her. Oh yeah, I know the "fake" thing. She's just testing you to see if you buy into her. You're right on it's not your concern anymore. She's a big girl and I'm sure being the narcissist she is - at some point, she'll see this well is dry and go to where she can screw with someone else's brain.

December 3, 2001
12:32 pm
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Molly
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She is just trying to maintain that imagined connection that she thinks she still has with you. Its the narcissist, and remember as long as they think they have the in, they will continue the dis-ease, and being who they are, its when the door is completely shut, then the last great performance, trying to open it, i.e., temper tantrum, emotional out burst, you know that typical desperate behavior to unlock the door, and when they realize that the door is never going to open, is when they will slither back under the rock that they came from, and hopefull look internal, until then it remains game time. Since she is mother of the year, your answer could be you handle it, or my only suggestion is family counseling, where her behavior could be exposed she won't risk it. How often did she call you with these things before last Jan.?

December 4, 2001
9:34 pm
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Well, a lot has happened in a couple of days, let me enlighten all of you. I met with wacko on Sunday evening, for coffee. She proceeded to tell me how she is realizing that she really didn't want to be alone afterall, and that it is very difficult. She said she wanted to express "remorse" at some of the decisions she has made, and says she realizes she has allowed this to go way out of control. She says the following to me: "I realize my priorities were way out of control, and we should have been doing things as a couple, with other couples. I should not have excluded you from my social life, but should have built a social life as a couple. I realized I made some bad judgements, and was fighting my aging process, which I am starting to accept as being okay. I realized during the last mediation session, that my life was being laid out for me, on paper, and that I didn't like what I was seeing or hearing. I realized that the kids were being so affected by all of this, and that they don't want this either. Are you going to initiate the filing? I realized that if you took me back, we would really have to focus on us, and not let any outside influence come between us. Yeah, I was wrong to go outside the marriage for advice and input, from the type of friend I made, but I swear on our children, it was stictly a friendship on my behalf, and nothing more, and nothing ever happened, other than the friendship. I don't know where this is all leading me to, but I think I have just come through a mid life crisis, and the fog is starting to lift." Upon hearing all this, I responded that first off, if she was honest with herself, she would seek intensive professional counseling. She responded that she has an appt. in Jan. to get started. Then I responded that this was all nice and fine, however, I hold tremendous resentment, hurt and distrust toward her. I told her that I think it's good we continue along the path we are currently on, and continue to spend this time apart from each other. I told her I wanted time to work through issues on my own, and didn't think she could have possibly come to such realizations so fast, without truly digging deep inside. I then concluded by telling her I lost myself in her during our marriage, and I am now regaining who I am and what I am, and will never allow myself to compromise my feelings or beliefs about anything or anyone, ever. And with that I told her I hope she continues on her path of realizations, and that it brings her some kind of clarity in her life, as it has already done for me.
As coincidences would have it, today, a former girlfriend of mine, from almost 20 years ago, called,hearing about my situation, and getting my number from a mutual friend I haven't talked with in the same amt. of time. She is divorced, living about an hour away, and asked if we can get together just to catch up on old times. I agreed to, and will go out to see her on the 24th of Dec..She and I had about a two year relationship back then. I was told she has Scleradema (forgive my spelling), a hardening of the internal organs, which requires medication, surgery and so forth, sometimes fatal. So, I want to go out and see her, and visit. She invited me to stay out there over night with her, since she has a large residence and no kids, only her, and I agreed to. Also, today in counseling, I reviewed all these events, and my counselor told me that since there is a clear understanding that we both have independent lives right now, with no accountability for the other, I should approach each situation and act on it without any guilt or remorse, just use good judgement. He said that sometimes, this could be beneficiary in my overcoming the resentment and mistrust I have for the future ex., not an evening out of the score, but just a way to feel indpendent and self accountable only.
I agreed with that assessment too. So, there you have it, my update. I don't want to even think of the "R" word with the ex, because of all the feelings I still have regarding the distrust, hurt and narcisstic personality traits I think she exhibits. Therefore, I will do nothing right now, but continue on my path I have set out on. It is working for me, and I am comfortable with it for now..............Okay Ladeska and Molly, let me have it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Best to all........Randy

December 5, 2001
12:31 pm
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gingerleigh
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Randy, I'll leave it to Ladeska and Molly to give you the "foot in the door" warnings that you KNOW are coming regarding Wacko. *smile* I can tell you without any hesitation that there are women out there who are already so much better for you and who will be better to you than wacko could be. I consider the people on these threads to be much healthier than "normal" people who don't seek the counseling because they are actually brave enough to do the self-exploration, really examine what makes us tick and what our needs are, rather than hiding behind statements like "I just don't want to be married anymore" or "I'm not the one with the problem, it has to be you."

I don't see wacko on these threads, do you?

Consider this: even if she does get her act together, she's a middle aged woman who needs to recover from a lifetime of narcissism and denial. Do you really want to wait around for years of denial and lies to fall away, especially without the guarantee that it ever will? There are many other women who are already self-aware who have gone through the tearing and healing process that you are going through who are mature enough to have a stable relationship and treat another human being with the love and respect that a partner deserves. (Don't believe me? Where do you find these rare women? Not in bars. Not off with "just male friends" playing golf. Hey Molly, Ladeska, Alena, where do you lovely ladies hang out? *giggle*)

Even giving wacko the benefit of the doubt, assuming that her intentions are good, it's like wishing and waiting for a 13 year old girl to grow up into a mature adult, versus taking a date with a self-made 40-year-old woman. What you see is what you get. You are seeing her for what she is, and holding out in hopes that she will change is just setting yourself (and your girls) up for more heartbreak. Wacko might make it someday, really she might. And if she does, if she pulls the balls out of her purse and decides to do the work and grow into a healthy person, then hey, bully for her. No one would deny her that peace. However, that process could take a year, it could take the rest of her life, and there's no guarantee that the person she becomes, healthy or otherwise, is someone that you would want to be.

Just remember: WYSIWYG. (pronounced wiz-ee-wig.) What You See Is What You Get. Granted, sometimes you have to look really really closely to see what's really there. WYSIWYG does not equal WYWTOIWYG (what you want to see is what you get). See, that one you can't even sound out... (weew-toy-wig --- sounds way more stupid than wiz-ee-wig).

This started off intelligently I think, and now has deteriorated into me making up children's songs in my office. I'm going to get some coffee. Good morning, all.

December 5, 2001
12:42 pm
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I can't even freaking spell my own made up words... I mean... WYWTSIWYG. Weew-t-ti-wig... that's even worse. (Blues progression...) Duh nah nah nah... duh nah nah nah...

E7 - I had a friend named Randy

A7 - And his woman did him bad

E7 - (duh nah nah nah...)

A7 - Oh yeah our buddy Randy

A7 - That little ole woman of his did him bad

E7 - (duh nah nah nah...)

B7 - But that boy Randy, can't keep him down, no!

A7 - And now dat witch so, so, sad...
E7 - (duh nah nah nah...)

(finger pick triplets --- B-E-B-Bb-E-Bb-A-E-A-G#)

Yes yes ladies and gentlemen, this is why I make my living in IT, and not performing in Carnegie hall or heck even on the street corners at Pike's Market.

Anyone up for some more Starbucks?

December 5, 2001
1:04 pm
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Molly
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Got my coffee right here, sad, but knew she would see the light, I just hope this isn't a reaction to ... Did Earl ditch her all ready? If I were not in the thick of the consequences of the divorce... from the intact family, and hearing the older children discuss the difficulties, and not just mine, but hubbies, and their spouses and girlfriends, I would be inclined to say just shut the friggin door, and lock it. However I realize what the future looks like for this drama in the next 8-10 years for all of you. My girls are 23-21 ya know. there are lots of heart strings being pulled due to the holidays, and this is her first realization of the consequences of her dream. The forced counseling is great for a start, hope she can afford it, and then there is the quesiton of time with drug addicts and alcoholics, they say at least 2 years in recovery, but with this type of recovery how can you measure it appart, yet do you risk the R.... situation. It is so sad due to the dynamics of nature, that people cant be on the same page as the same time. She forced you into all of this, pushed your heart into that food processor, and grinded it, now she wants to put it all back together today, yea right.Kinda like forcing some one in the pool to swim who never wanted to swim, and now we can't get Randy out of the water.
Since I have also worked at the R game, with out the kids involved in this relationship, I know how hard it really is, those thoughts of pain, distrust, uncertainty don't ever go away, I wonder if it would be the same if it was the oringional intact family or if the kids and the family connections would be the glue. You also have to remember that the rest of the family might not be up for it.
As well as communication with your therapist, the mediator, her therapist, when your really thinking on the edge, what about your Rabbi?
Remeber to that the kids will be gone soon, and for the most part, school breaks and the holidays are the only time you will see them if then, and other wise its you are her. Can you ever re-establish a relationship with the kids gone, you and her? Perhaps the best is to be able after time, be able to be in the same room with her just for the holidays, butttttt...... as I learned, Dad's girlfriend is a jelous ninni... and is uncomfortable if any single women, or unescorted women come to the events, so Wako may not get invited by the girls. Or Wakos new boy friend won't want dad at the event, and then what happens. Just some future consequences ...
follow your heart for today.

December 5, 2001
5:30 pm
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ranmar1
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Gingerleigh and Molly (Hey, where is Ladeska and Alena?)
I laughed my head off with Gingerleigh's rendition. I actually hummed it out, it was hysterical. As for be cautious, you know, as I thought about it more and more, yeah, I don't have any social life right now, and that is by my doing, with the travel and taking care of the girls. I know I can't hide out and continue at this pace forever, but for now, I'm in a pretty good place. I think this will make wacko even more jealous or hurt, but so what. As her therapist told us in a counseling session, this is her thing, she will have to live through it. I think I can keep this up for a while. I'm enjoying the independence, while having the responsibility of taking care of my kids. It was so funny, last night, she had to come over and pick something up at the house. I was making and serving dinner to my daughters and a friend of theirs. Wacko comes in, and comments how good it smells. One of my daughters gave her a bite, and she says, "Wow, this is really good." I think it dawned on her that we aren't starving, but actually, functioning quite well without her. (Stab to the heart maybe?)Just call me SUPER DAD> The house is always clean, the kids are fed and clean, they get off to school okay, have a real breakfast and dinner cooked by me, and their grades are holding up in school. So, bottom line is, I can do this, and keep the kids balanced as well. I do look forward to some fun and a social life, but again, I know that will come in time. For now, I'm content taking care of my girls, taking care of my responsibilities, and learning more about myself through counseling and all of your help here..........Life continues to be alright. Randy

December 5, 2001
7:35 pm
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Alena
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Hi all, sorry Randy, I've been away from the site most of yesterday and all of today. I've not had a whole bunch to say, but I've been trying to keep up.

I have a feeling that my first reaction/opinion is not going to be very popular here. Let me preface it by saying, I am a freakin bleeding heart when it comes to matters of heart and soul and love and forgiving. Could be why I'm in a sometimes less than rewarding relationship for 26 years. But, is there any relationship that is always good? Over 26 years? I don't know, I really am asking.

But, here's what comes to my mind. Do with these thoughts whatever you wish...toss them in the garbage or chew on them, and then toss them, or just maybe come back in a week and chew again. Randy, if none of us were here, if you'd never spoken to any of us, how would you feel about her? Every one of us cares about this guy out west named Ranmar/Randy, we care enough that every day we look to see how he's doing......heck, I don't even call my own brother every day! 🙂 But! It's your life. You are the one who sits in the hotel rooms alone, you are the one who cried the tears for the last year, you are the one who misses your daughters, you are the one who sleeps alone. You have the memories, the broken dreams, what do you want? You know her, you lived with her for what, 14 years?? Sure, she messed up for the last couple, but what about before that? Were you guys ever happy?? Did you guys have a base of real love? Did she exhibit this behavior all the time and you just were easy going enough to roll with it and adjust, never expecting the bomb she hit you with? Is it possible this was a pre-menopause episode for which she is truly sorry, repentful, and willing to do anything to help you and the girls heal?

It would be very typical of her to be feeling so sorry for herself now just because she sees how well you are doing and she is jealous, and that whole thing about how some people only want someone until they get them. We are always so much more attractive when we're strong and independent. So much more revolting when we are sniveling and groveling. She may have been expecting the latter and can't stand your independence, and cool approach to her.

My opinion: it's really too soon to tell, I think only time will prove what she really feels and wants.

I'm not in any way suggesting that you change what you have started. I would suggest that you stay the course, take each day as it comes, continue to take care of your daughters and yourself in that order. Get more social, experience LIFE without her just as you've been, most of all, continue to love yourself as you are, continue to keep finding more and more about yourself that you say you lost. What a great resolution for the new year! 🙂
If she continues to approach you with her new found guilt and remorse, I would suggest that you tell her to take a lesson from your behavior these last couple of months......to work at finding the real "wacko" (sorry, but I don't know her name) (don't say "go find the real wacko)..(insert her name)......(smile*)

You have both been through a major upheaval. One which you survived and she did not...but she may be just faltering, she may be just trying to hold onto the sides before she goes under, she may just be trying to save herself. So, don't take what she says too, too, seriously and don't dismiss it. I don't know about all the narcissistic stuff, I don't know all of her. You do.....but I do know that even good people make stupid mistakes. Whoa, I can just feel the baseball bats comin down on my head from Ladeska....I'm duckin and weavin....sorry....ouch! Told you, I am a freakin bleedin heart.

But should we throw away 14 years of marriage IF we find that it can be repaired and can be fulfilling and not cause pain?? That's up to you. Only you know how you feel...I think you should keep doing what you are doing and she what she does. Talk is cheap, see if she walks the walk. If not, you have not lost anything.....if she turns it around, you may have something to gain. If you WANT it.

Let me add that I left my husband after 8 years for what I thought were alot of excellent reasons. And I had 3 boys at the time. He was arrogant, verbally and mentally abusive, uncaring, a real bastard actually, he let me go, just about shoved me out the door. I was hospitalized with major depression and alot of other crap, months later, when I was on my feet again and doing really well, he wanted back. I told him to get counseling, don't bother me until he does. Well, he did. He made a sincere effort, he made alot of promises and he showed me alot of changes. That was 18 years ago and to this day, he has not broken any of the promises. He is not the same idiot he was before (that BEGS for a punchline...I'll skip it..) We aren't Ozzie and Harriet or June and Ward, but is anyone?? (barf)....
I have alot of issues with him and I suppose him with me, but I think that's called LIFE. I sometimes think I settled, but that's easy for me to say because I don't have a magical camera that can show me what would have happened to me had I not taken this road....could be a ton better...could be a ton worse, eh?
One thing for sure, do not get yourself feeling all high and renewed because she is repenting...it could be fleeting and you will sink again. Just continue what you're doing, stay focused as you are, stay strong, and stay open minded. You are doing so well, and I am so happy for the peace you are able to find for yourself.
GL....great little diddy... 🙂
Okay, I gotta go find a helmet before Ladeska turns her computer on.....

December 5, 2001
7:46 pm
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Alena
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uh, before Ladeska gets here, one more thing....
You know Randy, in the time it takes her to get counseling and the help she needs, you may be lightyears ahead of her. You may find in that time that you really don't need her after all this time. Even if you don't hook up with another chick, you just may grow so much, even if she does change, you may truly not care for or love her anymore..and you will be able to tell her so, with compassion. For you will know what it's like to have been hurt. I do believe that people who do not love each other should not ever stay married for the kids.
Stay focused on you...you are the only one you can trust to have your best interests at heart.

December 5, 2001
9:58 pm
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ranmar1
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Alena, you said it so eloquently. I truly am digesting what you have written here. I am doing what you have said, continuing on my path for now, with my daughters. She will have to figure things out for herself. If I'm in a position of wanting to sit down with her again, I will. But, as you said, I may just have outgrown her over time. We'll see.
Randy

December 6, 2001
3:13 pm
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Ladeska
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Alena...you silly wabbit!! You've got great advice and he needs to hear all of us spout. Helps him to be objective and by all means - he should be just that.

Randy, my man....nope, not going to beat you up. You didn't do anything. You listened to her, interacted appropriately. You've been warned about the pitfalls and you're rather content with your life right now. So, I'd just say continue on your path.

I knew she would do this. They can't stand to lose. Gotta go do lunch, my daughter is here, but will brb.

December 6, 2001
5:07 pm
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Ladeska
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Okay...I'm back...as I was saying - her moves are totally predictable. She wants to have her cake and eat it, too....AND....poor poopsie didn't realize how good she had it! ALSO - the real kicker here is - narcissistic people really can't stand being hung up on. They have to be the ones that cut out on you!

I can't tell you how many times I've seen this one played out.... My sister moved out here from back east to get away from our wicked mother. She lived with me for a few months and then got to sniffling because Mommie Dearest kept calling her and coaxing her to come back home. My sister was 18 at the time.

I told her to watch it, because Mother would say anything just to reel her back in and then she'd pounce on her with both feet as if to say - How Dare You Leave Here and make me look bad!!! Well....my sister wouldn't listen, at some point, she went back, saying all these nice things and how great things would be, Mother said this and Mother said that... Um, yeah...my sister gets off the plane and my mother is ice cold to her. She leans into my sister and whispers - All is not forgiven, my dear.....

And, my sister calls me later - crying, sad my mom is being a complete bitch to her, etc., etc. And I've been in this situation myself with people like this. When you dare to call them on their stuff - it is very rarely that you can walk back into anything with them and be for real - that they are sorry. They despise you secretly because you put your foot down and they know their most dangerous weapon on you - is their charm and their ability to manipulate you. They have to win, that's just all there is to it. They have to have the last say and they need to really, really hurt you "this time" around because you humiliated them basically - by having rights. The world is suddenly - not all about them anymore. Oh, boo-hoo.

Then again.....like Alena said, too, I don't know this woman and she could have....."could have" the ability to turn around and have second thoughts.

But based on what you've said on these threads - I wouldn't trust that woman one inch, if that much. From here she just looks like she positioning herself to slap the complete hell out of you, IF you will fall for this line of b.s.

Thing is - talk is cheap. And actions need to be actions - for quite a while before they are believable. And anyone....can paint on a face now and then, especially if you aren't living with them, so how are you really to know, right?

At some point, you really do have to look at things and ask yourself what is the "value" of the things she's done wrong here. Was it just a tiny little slap in the face here and there, or did she usually take your heart out and step on it? When you answer that - then you have to decide what an appropriate response and judgement from you to her is.

And if in time you do take her back....just be forewarned that the second time around - she will go for blood......

All in all though, you did good. (smile) Just had to give you a reality check. I've just seen this played out so much and seen destruction in lives, like you would not believe. The one - would get all strong and in such a better place...only to let the manipulative other one back in later and then they'd go right for the juglar with a vengeance....and I'd hear this pathetic person saying to me - why did I do this???? I KNEW better!!! I think part of us wants this person that we've been with for so long - to be who we imagined them to be and we need to experience them missing us, missing what we had, etc., etc. Well....you can do that from a distance....because someone who is drowning will reach out and take anyone with them - it doesn't matter who - their husband, their wife, their children.....So, count the cost, if you ever do open that door. Be very, very careful...also be careful of the slow pulling that she will be doing with you...just a little every day....a tug here and there....

December 6, 2001
5:40 pm
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gingerleigh
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Ladeska, one minor addition to your post... talk isn't just cheap, it's FREE!

*grin*

mi mi mi mi mi....

*ahem* *cough* *hack*

Blues progression...
"Oh my baby, he done left me... oh yeah, my baby done me wrong............. oh my baby, he done left me... my baby done me wrong........... oh he left me and took my best friend Rover... and lawdy how I miss my dog....dah dah duh dah nah nah...."

December 6, 2001
6:02 pm
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Ladeska
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Sang it Sista!!! Can't get no cheaper than that, huh?

December 6, 2001
7:30 pm
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gingerleigh
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My meds, my meds, where are my freakin' meds???

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