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Help Me Please x 3
April 30, 2001
4:15 pm
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ranmar1
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Here I am, trying to make it easier to follow my thread, from previous "Help me Please x2". In answer to your question, I was never married before, and we got married when I was 32. My wife was married right out of high school, for three years. I know that one of her problems is that we met right when she was finalizing her divorce. Here we are 20 years later, 15 of it married, and she is regressing. I've noticed a possible "thawing" in her lately. Hopefully this is not just wishful thinking on my part. She doesn't push away so much anymore when I give her a kiss. She actually "allows" cuddling in bed. I think she is starting to realize some things (positively I believe). She states that she needs to "take care of her problem" first, before being able to make any plans with us. I hope I'm not setting myself up for dissapointment. I will continue to go to my counselor, and she will go to hers. I don't know what kind of time limit to give it, possibly to the end of the year, I don't know what is right. Please keep your feedback coming. I look forward to them.

April 30, 2001
4:54 pm
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Alena
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Ranmar, that's a good sign! maybe the new woman counselor is going to prove to be a good thing for her. Sometimes it helps hearing it from our "own". Ya know? It's too easy to cop an attitude when it's a member of the opposite sex.

Just don't change your approach, be yourself, but I would still be a bit guarded. It's tempting to just jump right back like nothing has happened and you do want to give her healing room. You too...you need it also.

Keep us informed...we're still pullin for ya.

April 30, 2001
5:18 pm
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Molly
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My husband and I have admitted to ourselves, that while we were wishing for change or else, it was easier to focus on the or else. You can't be in two places mentally or physically at the same time and give it your all. I know this is a different concept in the middle of the me society, but if you focus on the marriage, like divorce does not exist, the marriage must work. I don't mean that you get your teeth kicked down your throat daily, and turn the other cheek, but with no other choice, there is no question of time limit. Don't forget it took almost 18 years to get to this point of frustration, and it is not going to heal overnight. It gets disappointing when we have expectations, like she is going to wake up tommorow, and be right in the middle of her old 1993 affectionate self. Watching her, waiting for a sign, she will fail. That could create the opportunity for you to move on, but I didn't think that was what you wanted. There is no doubt in my mind that your relationship will not be the same, but with time after this storm, I think it could be better than you ever imagined. Its hard to imagine that this could be better than being with out her the way she is now, but with the complications of divorce, the future with your daughters, the meat market out there, you just have to know that the wait will be worth it. After all the years, and all that you have been through together, I just see her comming around, the options, hers, and yours really do suck. Just my opinion

May 2, 2001
10:31 pm
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ranmar1
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Alena and Molly,
First off, I'm glad you followed my thread to this site. We had an intense discussion yesterday. She says she needs to figure out herself, and that her counselor says she is so business like in her approach to our relationship, almost like a transaction. My wife says she didn't know she came across that way. Her counselor told her she would just be another commodity out there being single, with two children, and that all of life's decisions are a gamble, whether you decide to stay together or move on. The key is deciding which gamble you would be willing to take. I guess I'm gambling too right now, in hoping for the best and putting up with all her "demons" and wanting to wait while she "finds herself." I know what my alternative choice is, but I vowed that I would not be the one to move on, unless she makes it totally worthless to carry on. I keep telling her I will not allow us to turn out like her parents marriage, just putting up with each other, because neither one has the nerve to make a change, so they just live in misery. Mentally, I need to play this whole thing out. I am going to continue with my counselor, to help me with my patience through all of this complicated crappola. Thanks for staying with me.

May 2, 2001
10:54 pm
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Alena
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Ranmar,

Well, it's good to hear you're talking. Right? Is she still traveling? In the beginning it seemed as though you two had no communication and she was all helter-skelter in 50 different directions AWAY from you. Is she slowly starting to settle? Sounds a bit like that.

So many marriages end up that way Ranmar, the passion, and I don't necessarily mean sexual passion, just withers away and your energy to stoke it seems to kind of go with it. It gets "easier" to just put up. Doesn't have to be that way.

Please humor me while I get on my "Top Ten Reasons for a Trial Seperation" soapbox......but.....
that's why I wanted you to get away from her for as long as you can...even amicably......just so she
can....miss.......you. Just so she can see what it is she is gambling on.
You know that thing about how we don't know what we have till it's gone? What if she never has a chance to realize it until she just up and decides some day to just divorce because she THINKS she knows what she wants and gambles that it isn't you?
Isn't it better to lose on a two dollar bet ( a friendly seperation)
vs. a bet the house gamble? Trying to make an analogy there....quite a stretch.

Okay, ......wait a minute....okay, now I'm off. Now it's Molly's turn to give her opposing opinion (BIG GRIN MOLLY) 🙂

May 3, 2001
11:16 am
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ranmar1
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Molly,
I'm looking forward to your response.
I don't want to even think about a formal separation. I travel for business, as you can tell from previous threads. This Monday, I'm off to the Pacific Northwest for the week. About a week ago I was away on business for about 8 days. This has definately given her space. As for her ventures, she said two days ago that she doesn't want to go away with the her girlfriends as much as before because she doesn't want to have to deal with their PMS. She would rather cut it down to once or twice a year. Does this sound like her way of compromising without admitting it?
She still tells me she is on the fence about us, but that she needs to "fix herself" first. She definately needs "fixing". When I still give her an occassional hug, kiss, whatever, she says that she has been trying to "allow me to go beyond her boundaries". I respond by telling her I do it for me first, and that I need what little emotion back from her as possibly, even if that is her "allowing me" to. I think it is a bunch of crock, and that she needs and wants it too. Nothing sexual. The good thing I see happening is that she is actually working on herself instead of faking it like she did before. I think this counselor of hers is doing some good, in making her think. I don't know exactly in what direction, but I think she is telling my wife that the grass may not be greener on the other side, and that it is a decision she needs to make, a gamble either way. Okay you guys, your turn to respond.........:)

May 3, 2001
12:33 pm
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Molly
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Alena, you made me laugh out loud.
I get that she is shut down emotionally, that is the reason that the counselor described her business like approach to the counseling, and her lack of affection. She is in feeling limbo right now. Switching gears, it takes time to shut down and time to fire it up again. I get too, that she realized the influence of the girl friends, and the path that they were leading her on, and she is avoiding it, as a means to stay focused, I think its a good thing.
It takes one hell of alot of energy to keep a long term marriage fun, passionate, and connected. We usually surrender to the ho hum.
Now regarding the seperation, the problem is all the financial loss,just how long , what would the impact be on the girls, as well as the fact that there is the possibility, that Well you left me, and she gets real angry and follows through with everything, that I don't think she really wants, or wanted, or sinks into a deeper depression, and doesn't get back intouch with her feelings. Perhaps if you have always traveled like this, it co-signed the thought process of seperation, in the beginning, my ex-used to travel all the time, and I thought what would I miss, to be honest it took me almost 3 years to get it. Then 6 years, dealing with the girls, and the loss of the family unit, screamed at me in neon. Today, not that my current husband isn't trying don't get me wrong, but it is not the same. I so miss the family unit, and it will never ever be right. I can't express the pain I fought feeling at my youngest 21 st birthday party, it was all my ex's family, and I felt like such an outsider. This is the way it has been ever since the girls left for college, I encouraged the participation in the origional family unit for them to maintain some family consistancy, and because my personal family is so spread out, or dead, and my current husbands family was never blended into our marriage, that is all they have, and whom they have embraced, and so where does mom fit in? Like the third cousin, maybe whith their marriage, and future children things will change, but I doubt it, they are in a different world, and I would imagine with the socioeconomics, unless your wife can get employment to equal yours, she will down slide into a different world than what she knows today, and won't be in the same game as you and your girls. I think this is such a common reality, that your wife's counselor is truly trying her to get it, and make her self happy with in the marriage. We women, have so much going on with the children when they are young, and when they get older we get lost in what our identity is, and when they leave for school, its worse.
I acknowledge you commitment Ranmar, and hope you keep on. Keep reminding your self that there is no other choice, and in a way this is sorta a normal progression of marriage, you need your friends and outlets too, good time to redevelop both of your identities, and in the process trying to come together. I think many folk took the divorce option and never traveled over the hump.

May 3, 2001
8:03 pm
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Alena
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I'm smacking myself with a rolled-up newspaper, " I will never mention the "S" word again, I will never mention the "S" word again, I will never......

But one last word in my defense. I never, ever, ever, meant that you should divorce.Ever.Ever Ever. I only wanted your wife to miss you, not divorce you. I only wanted to wake her up. K.... never again, ....lips are sealed.

So, what does your counselor say about all of this? And I think maybe she has seen that traveling with the girls isn't the answer to her restlessness either. Here comes the part where I reminisce..........

I often feel like life is passing me by. I have to fight that feeling often.I think it's natural when you reach middle age and actually realize you will not live forever. But, try as I may, no matter how vacations I go on, nothing takes me back in time. I cannot become the care-free girl of the 70's I once was. I have to be the woman of the 21st century that I am.
Wife may have seen that although she is with her girlfriends, and trying to recapture her youth, it's not going to happen. It didn't happen. It's not the answer to her problems, and it isn't the alternative to living with you. I hope that's her thinking.

She's allowing you to go beyond her boundaries? Hmm...you mean when you kiss her? Hug her?

May 3, 2001
8:38 pm
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Molly
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I didn't think that I slapped that hard, its just that for some reason, his situation really reminds me of the break up with the father of my kids, transferance!!!!! I just hope she gets the reality check before she lives with regret. Once you ring the bell you can't un ring it!!
doesn't that is that all there is feeling suck? I don't know if I want to recapture my youth but some of the energy and passion wouldn't hurt. The other side of the seperation thing, is if she has a best friend, a woman, and isn't a horney buggger, guess that comes later, what the hell does she need a husband for??
That is the other side of the coin, no more dinners to cook, no more laundry to do, no more gotta get the house cleaned, and no more sports events on tv, of course there is the paying the bills, the familiar body in bed, even if it is asleep, the social identity, if you have a social life, opps do I have an attitude today??? You know that sexual comfort thing will take as much time to come around, at least as long as it took the walls to go up, and for some reason, usually longer. We women are strange creatures with our affections, and sexuality.

May 3, 2001
11:20 pm
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Alena
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Yes, we are a strange group, we women.

Maybe strange isn't the word...maybe it's "normal". It's tough being a round peg in a square (men) world.

Today is attitude Thursday for you Molly and it seems to be philosophical
day for me. I'm off on some anologic spree I can't seem to shake.
Why is it that women understand women, men understand men, but we live with the opposite sex? God's little sense of humor I guess. You will be sexually, and utterly pathetically attracted to the opposite sex, but you will have no clue on how to get along with them.
Duh.

Funny, you should mention the part about what do I need a husband for, I've thought THAT a few times in my life.But, I'm sure to be perfectly honest, so has he.

Say, let's all do (cyber) lunch...
let's see, I'm free Monday at noon...

May 4, 2001
11:11 am
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ranmar1
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Hey guys, I'm buying lunch for both of you. 🙂 Alena, then we won't have to smack you with a newspaper in this thread....The S word is not in my vocabulary or realistic for me. Not when I have my daughters that I can come home to every night (when not travelling). She is going through some tough times in her mind. I can tell by the strain and the physical imbalance her body is going through (female things). I think her counselor has her number already, and will try to guide her back into reality. That might be why she makes the statements about not wanting to go as much with her girlfriends travelling. Interestingly, one of her girlfriends has told her husband that she feels like my wife is divorcing her, because she feels she has voiced her opinion about my wife's actions to me. I guess it hurts to hear the truth. Regarding God's game of having men and women "endure" relationships, he has one heck of a sense of humor. My situation must have him roaring. What a challenge. I guess that is how I approach it. The only problem I have now is I'm dealing with so much anger and resentment. This is something I'm going to bring up today in my one on one session with my counselor. I'm so pissed at her for what she is doing to us, but I also know, she is oblivious to us right now, and too involved in trying to deal with herself. Oh well, what time is lunch?

May 4, 2001
11:59 am
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Molly
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Monday at noon. I think you need a physical release, that golf just won't acomplish. Try some tae-bo, punch that bag, and get the anger out, so that it is not displaced, like my guy is doing this week.
I swear, he is messing with his meds again, and has not been working out as much as he was, the stress level at his job has tripled in the last two weeks, and he has gotten himself in a mess with his license, over something 3 years ago,and I asked if he was watching basketball tonight, and got a spew of venom. Oh, well,the roses got trimmed real short this morning, hehehe. yea, Alena, I am so sure these guys think the same thing maybe not as often, but frequently. I wish mine would commune more with anything but the remote controll.

May 4, 2001
8:02 pm
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Alena
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Ranmar, will you be doing our lunch from the Pacific Northwest? Washington state? And since your buying, I guess I'll have lobster, my most favorite food in the world. Couple Mai-Tai's. MMMMMMMM
How often are you out of town for a week? Has she ever gone with you, before the kids, or since with grandparents doing the sitting?

Roses.....on the 4th of May.....must be nice. I'm just thankful to see the grass growing and the trees getting leaves again. GRRRRRR.....I hate winter in the north.

May 5, 2001
1:36 pm
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ranmar1
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Molly and Alena,
You have to have Pacific Northwest Salmon if I'm buying lunch from up there on Monday. Otherwise, dutch.
Went out to dinner last night. It's sort of interesting to hear her talk, and what she is saying. A lot of it is what my counselor and I had said when we were doing couple counseling, but I guess it has more validation coming from her own female counselor.
One interesting item from last night, was her comment about how she has pulled away from one of her girlfriends (the one who called the police on her husband). She said her friend asked her when they were going away again, and my wife responded by saying not for a long time. Then she tells me that she wanted to pull away from her because she got her into "trouble with me", and put her into a bad situation, with the travelling and drinking. I thought, since when did she start having a concious about how it affected me? I know and she has stated, that she really can't start working on "us" until she has worked on herself first. She says she knows she has a lot of problems and issues to deal with and that her counselor has told her there is a lot of work to do. My "mission" is to stay patient through all of this and see where it all comes out. My gut feeling right now is that she is going to try and resolve the issues within herself first, and then work on compromising and getting back into "us". I may be wrong, and this could be wishful thinking, but we will see. I am mentally prepared for either outcome.
By the way, am I responsible for paying for dessert for all of us too at lunch on Monday...:)
If I don't visit you this week, I'll catch you all on Saturday.

May 6, 2001
10:30 pm
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Alena
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Salmon sounds good too, I guess I could spring for dessert...

I'm optimistic Ranmar, it's always good to hear you're communicating, never know what's gonna come out once the words start flowing.

Have a good week...keep on keepin on..

May 7, 2001
11:35 am
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gingerleigh
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Pacific Northwest? Seattle? How do I get in on this??? If it's a private party, that's cool, let me know if you need some recommendations on great places for salmon. ;o)

Ranmar, I'm real glad to hear that you are continuing to work through stuff. Your wife IS absolutely right in this case about trying to find out what is going on with herself first. It is really really hard to be in the position that you are, having to wait and see, but... I know it's cliche, but it is true. You can't love and understand someone else until you love and understand yourself.

Cheers to all,
GL

May 7, 2001
12:20 pm
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Molly
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Gee, isn't that just like a man, first he said he would buy lunch, now we must eat what he wants us to or its dutch, or and maybe dessert!
Guess we should just be more focused on how to get there today. Greedy women we want it all.
I get that her counselor has picked up on her blameing others for areas that she must be responsible for. Its easy to work up anger, when we blame, and perhaps, as she is owning her responsibility, the anger is shedding. She will be more open, as she takes on what her responsibilities are, and releases you from the cause. Right now there is nothing to make you wrong for, and no reason to act out?

May 7, 2001
7:22 pm
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ranmar
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Hi guys. Well here I am in a hotel in Spokane. Tomorrow it's Seattle. Okay, you guys have been so good to me, I'm springing for dessert too. Yesterday was my wife's birthday. I had a tough time pretending that everything was alright in front of her friends. I invited three other couples, her girlfriends and their spouses, to a lunch outside overlooking the beach. We sat across the way from each other, not really paying too much attention to each other, busy "entertaining." I am just having such a hard time with being so pissed off at her. I know she needs to start working on herself, but here I am, sitting on the sidelines, completely ignored of any affections, feelings, emotions for the past almost five months, while she figures her life out. She is going to make that trip on her own May 18- May 22. She says she is going to a timeshare in Miami,to get away from everything and do some soul searching. (We live in Southern Calif.) Yesterday, one of her other best girlfriends, takes me to the side and tells me how bad she feels about what I am going through,and even more so about how messed up my wife is in her thinking, and to just keep doing everything right. She says she asked my wife if she was trying to get me to leave initially, and she answered no she wasn't. This friend told her about how destructive it would be if she breaks up the family, and also questions why she is going through the thinking that she is. This is the friend that my wife trust and hangs out with. It appears to me that everyone knows what the right thing is except the person creating all this turmoil, my wife. Oh well, here I am being as patient and loyal as possible, I guess that is my role in life right now. I"ll check in with you from Seattle tomorrow. Ummmm, salmon.

May 7, 2001
7:34 pm
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Molly
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One of the best places in the world to eat, don't stain your tie. I guess this is the time you put on your Christ like hat, and muster up all the love and affection that you can, just keep the focus. keep fresh in thought old memories, not the new ones. Takes effort, but what doesn't ?

May 7, 2001
9:58 pm
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Alena
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Ranmar, you are too good to be true.

I keep trying to put myself in your shoes, .....and hers. Like I've said before, I don't know why "finding herself" excludes being nice to you.
You were nice enough to have a birthday get together for her to make her happy, and she couldn't show you any sign of affection for it? When you tell me things like this, and all that she has and all that she does and all that she takes for granted, she sounds rather spoiled and unappreciative. What does she want??
What is she hoping to find in Miami?
Oh boy...what am I missing here?
I think she should either stay home and find her marriage, or take you with her to a retreat and try to find what she felt for you and take a good look at what she has.

I'm sorry..I just don't agree with this behavior that I believe to be not nice. Where does it say you get to be treated like an old rag without feelings because she has to find herself? Would it have killed her to be affectionate to the man who put it all on for her, invited HER friends, is giving her so much SPACE, would it have compromised her feelings SO much?
Irreversibly? I don't condone finding yourself at someone else's expense. Especially when they don't deserve it.

May 7, 2001
10:24 pm
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ranmar
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You know, I'm being told that I have been way too tolerant about this whole crappola. One of her girlfriends even said it yesterday in private. I think I'm going to wait for her to return from her (selfish) trip, and then start "taking the gloves off." Maybe sitting in a hotel room here has gotten me pissed off. I'm out working my ass off, flying on airplanes, being away from the family, while she wines and dines in luxury, vacations on her own, etc.. My counselor keeps telling me that I have to be patient. No problem, if I can see anything positive happening. Maybe something or someone needs to "kick her in the [email protected]#" to bring her back to reality. I think right now, she isn't dealing in reality at all, but just trying to buy time until she can figure it out. Who knows??????

May 8, 2001
10:44 pm
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ranmar
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Molly and Alena,
I really did have Salmon tonite, here in Seattle. Where were you guys?

May 8, 2001
11:18 pm
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Alena
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Ranmar, I was there having Salmon too, looking for a really sweet looking, down trodden guy and a very attractive, smart real estate/counselor lady....no luck....so I flew back home. Must have just missed you and Molly.

So you were "salmoned in Seattle?...
or "stood up in Seattle?.......or
just pissed in Seattle....?

Sorry....I am tired tonight.......excuse my humor, ......or lack of.........

May 9, 2001
11:34 am
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i hate the world
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i f was tod something I've wanted more than anything in the worl cud apen in July and yesterday i was again told that it can't happen fo another six months I was really looking foward to it I felt that was going to be my breakthrough and now after ysterday news all inside o me feel like nohing i cried oer and over hopping that that would make me feel better but today I still feel like nothing I took three of some px medicine hping something bad would happen to me so I wouldn't feel so empty went out really late hoping could pbably get rape and killed so this eptinss would go away but I got home safe and he medicine that you shouldn't more than one of that I took three did d nothing and now i'm in schl al fine and feel emptier than ever what your suggestion

May 9, 2001
12:24 pm
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Molly
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These sites, are getting wako. Your funny Alena.
Ranmar,
Isn't this the life style that you have always provided for her?
Isn't that the way of compensation for all your travels and efforts to provide good, the best you can for your family? I think your at the same point I am at this minuet. All this effort, all the sacrifice, and comprimise, and trust, after all this time and you don't even know if she likes you? It was easier to be a loyal man sitting alone in the hotel room, watching cnn, calling home, and knowing all was home waiting for you with open arms, today its different, and you resent it. don't blame you. It truly take two to make it work, and when you find out the other isn't really on your team, it is so hard to keep the focus, and the love in your heart. How ever, you do still have the origional family still intact, and that is worth all the pain and suffering that you are currently enduring. Your rise to the moment your evidenced character, your loyalty despite her actions will be rewarded in your peace of mind no matter which way this turns out. I am currently in a mess, and due to my loyalty and character , was not across from you at the table last night, that is what Alena was kidding about. I had joked about running up to Seattle telling you to tell your wife to take a hike, and there was a waiting list. Hang in there.

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