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Help Me Please x 2!!!
March 23, 2001
12:49 pm
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Molly
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This is like Chuck Hearns and a Laker game, the butter is in the fridge and getting hard. Right now I think emotions are too much on edge, hurt pain, and confusion. Perhaps time appart would be best, then again not. What if there was absolutely no way out of the commitment that you both made? What if death was the only way out? Do we sometimes put so much into happiness, that our negative feelings get more signifigance than they should, and we feed our selfishness with justifacation? What if all the acting out was ignored, or she was forced to stop. The only way I can see that happening is take away the financial privledges, and put on an allowance, act like a child, be treated like a child ? I am sure the feminazies would like this one, but how else to effect the situation? What if the whole thing was just ignored? Hypothetical sure, but just what if? Amazing having been through one divorce, and almost another, just working through the issues like there was no choice, after a seperation the second time, I can't tell you how amazed I am at the stregnth and committment of our relationship. True, this is a one in a million situation, but we both understand, as we both have been through a divorce before knowing that the first marriages could have worked, if we both had honored our previous committments, and not honored negative feelings, and given those more signifigance! We have four children between the two of us, ages 27.23.21,20 we have seen the damage, the struggle, and the pain caused by our selfish actions for our personal happiness, and the childrens struggle is not over, as there are grand children, and too many family members, on his, hers, ours, theirs to satisfy. Every one has lost so much, and ours is not a bad situation, similar to ranmars struggles. There is just no way to enforce, control, or regulate, decent spousal behavior. I just hope and pray that Ranmar gets off it, and his wife gets it. Sorry for the struggle, and no a counselor can't wave the magic wand. My second husband and I went to over 10 different therapists, together and seperate, before we seperated, over 10 years, it was when we said this is it, one last shot, nothing else to loose, and everything to gain, that we learned to ignore things, and celebrate us. It really hasn't been that hard, and surviving the struggle, is what cements us, I think that is what the people who celebrate their 50 year mark state. The list of his wrongs, could go on and on, but if it was not for his unwavering commitment to me, I must be honost, I wouldn't be here, but he would not leave me alone, and today after a long, unfun time, I am so greatful I took the chance on us.Just my two cents.

March 23, 2001
3:12 pm
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gingerleigh
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I'm not a real Steven Covey fan, but I like one of the metaphors he uses. He compares human relationships to a bank account, where you make deposits of kindness and integrity and make withdrawls of wrong doings and hurt. You can only borrow against the deposits that are already there, and when you keep making withdrawl after withdrawl, the funds eventually run out.

Granted, this is all anonymous postings, and none of us are working directly with Ranmar to see first hand what is really going on. All we can go on is what is posted. But, to me, it sounds like his wife has just about hit the limit of withdrawls.

I have very little patience for people who enter therapy and aren't willing to do the work themselves. Ranmar's wife falls into this category. Marriage is important, and I am not an advocate for divorce (come on, who is?) but when one person wants to make it work, and one person clearly doesn't, it won't work. Besides, what is wrong with Ranmar trying to look out for his own happiness and the well-being of his daughters?

It seems like it would be much much healthier for the girls to live in a divorced household than witness Mom act out constantly. They might know in their minds that this behavior is wrong, but the actions will get ingrained on their little hearts and come back to haunt them later in life.

My advice... kick her to the curb, my friend. She's abusing you in so many ways, and as was posted earlier, she is so very very wrong. You and your children deserve better.

March 23, 2001
10:15 pm
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Alena
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Molly, I hear you. I agree with so much that you say. And you know what, I can hear the "tiredness" of it in your post. People always said marriage is alot of work. And it is. No doubt about it. It's like, if you don't do the routine maintenance checks every 3000 miles, you will pay for it after about 10,000 miles of letting it coast on it's own.
Duh.....make any sense. Lousy analogy.

I too would not be in my 25 year marriage if not for the perseverance and stick-to-it-iveness of my husband. We tried so hard to get over hurdles, I stumbled, I hurt, he quit, he pulled me over, we both got back on our feet and the race is still on.
All because he would not let me quit.
But,.....and this is a big but, I always loved him. Even when we were seperated and he was begging me to come back and I had had it and was ready to move on with peace and leave him and all his crap behind, I loved him. And that's probably part of the cement that saved you and your husband. I never PURPOSELY wanted to hurt my husband. Mad, sure, but never could stand to hurt him. Ranmar's wife seems to be completely oblivious, or conveniently blind, to all the hurt she is causing him and her daughter. I have to agree with Gingerleigh, his wife seems all out of love and caring for anyone but herself.

It happens. Period. You cannot mend a marriage if only one person is trying to fix it, and she is not trying to fix it. Unfortunately, this happens. I don't think there is any way for him to fix it. How do you MAKE someone love you when they would rather be without you?

I am sorry Ranmar, you seem like such a good guy. I just don't think she is in it for the long haul.

March 24, 2001
11:38 am
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res
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I just wanted to post a note. I work in a prison as a teacher.
I have not been the most successful teacher in my teaching
career. i am a good listener.My therapist tells me that when the going gets tough, i run away from a situation. I admit that is often the case. I cannot help responding with
great emotion to the things that are going on around me.
I go so far in personal relationships and no farther. i am
making progress with friendships in the community I
live in. Yet, I have lived here and maybe have only one good friend. I am a Single Christian Adult in a rural
community of North Texas. I would appreciate any suggestions on how to feel at home with myself and
with other people.

March 24, 2001
12:56 pm
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Molly
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I guess the point I was trying to make, is just like the baby that tosses a fit on the floor, we learned that after ignoring it for a while, they eventually quit tossing a fit. She is pushing his buttons, and doesn't even know why her self, does an infant? What is the intent of the infant, controll? attention? Its just that she isn't a drunk, drug addict, or beating any one,she hasn't even gone on a crazed spending spree, plastic surgury, she is going on with her life, rude, disrespectful, self centered, and I think that sure he is lacking, the girls are lacking, but again, we only have one side, not that I am supporting hers, but I get that this will pass,and certainly there must have been some sort of motivation on her part, could be just midlife, or pre emptynest syndrome,or corporate widow .
I think that there was a time, and may be several people that believe that marriage is a piece of paper, and if it is not working that it is easier to end it, cut the loss and move on to happiness. Life is to short etc, the same with jobs, and family who needs it life is all about me. I just think we need to quit indulging our emotional needs, quit focusing on the drama, because it is all catching up with us. I am tired of hearing children with depression, emotional abuse, kids killing at school, and this crap would not be going on if mom, and dad's had it together. Its time to be different. Not just Ranmar, but America.

March 26, 2001
9:14 am
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Alena
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Okay, well now we're off on a slightly different topic. I know you're making a connection between the two. I hear what you are saying about divorce having such vicious affects on the children. But, many factors create that messed up kid who shoots up a school, not just mom and dad splitting. What kind of people have mom and dad been? As a matter of fact, I believe the one kid in Colorado came from an intact family. And, by the way, why are they all caucasian? But, I'm rambling, that's not where I wanted to go with this.
I firmly believe the problem with many of today's "conscience-less" youth is that both parents worked and left the child with a hugless, unbonded, "we'd rather have money and career than be with you" personality disorder. I have really deep feelings on that subject.

My concern for Ranmar and his situation is that I just wonder if he will be able to be loved by this woman again. I have no doubt he would be able to love her if she stayed and they stuck it out, he seems very much tolerant of all of her behavior and I don't think he'll initiate any seperation or divorce. And yes, I do believe that he/she deserve to be happy. They seem to have, so far, raised two delightful young girls who are not babies, who should be able to cope with a marriage breaking up as long as it is handled with alot of care and maturity. I don't believe in suffering through a loveless marriage for the sake of the kids. You CAN still raise mentally and emotionally healthy young people if you work at it. It's when the children's needs get thrown into a corner and left there to rot that they fester into some sort of jumbled up mess who can't function in society.

They are still their responsibility. Whether together or apart, those girl's feelings need to be a major priority, but not the only one.
I've seen it both ways, suffer for the sake of the kids, and divorce. Both have their ramifications if not handled gently.

And the difference between his wife and a baby is that the baby doesn't realize it is hurting you. Wife has been doing this for over 3 mos. now, and she goes out of her way to mess him up.

I don't know the other part of the story. I'm just depending on his posts to be factual. But even if they are only half true, even if she has a reason to behave this way, the bottom line is she is behaving this way. If he is giving her reason to, what does that say about the marriage?

Life is too short. If you can save the kids and yourself too, go for it. Just my opinion.

March 26, 2001
12:13 pm
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Molly
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I think that we are both in the same direction, my point is that the priorities have been confused, perhaps by societial mental illness, giving way to selfishness, and the breakdown of the family. My husband who is not white is also quick to point out that the majority of the children are white who cause the problems. I think other cultures, still hold on to religion, and family, and are driven to hold on to connections due to financial reasons. But again many tangents that I can go on there as well. We grow up get married, and have babies, and loose the perspective of what is important, thus the marriage, and children get lost. But who ever said that it was a give right to be happy all the time? Then we can address immediate gratification, vs work? No one wants to work through the hard times, just cut it loose in the name of happiness, who's happiness? Its all diluted and mute any how, since there is absolutely no demand for accountability, and no way to enforce it. Gone are the support systems, family, and most likely in the past community or church, hence no shame! So as the people continue to persue their freedoms, at the eventual cost of the loss of freedom, sooner or later they will get it. As any woman who thought her husband difficult, or wife impossible and uncoperative during a marriage, should see what it is like to get that cooperation after the divorce, then there are the children that they neglected along the way, where society will now take over, socialism. Can you reall diciplan your child today with out consequences from the system? Can you live with out fear that your child today will not report you to some worker now on campus that you abused them this weekend for not giving or doing or acknowledging them for what ever? All in the name of your personal happiness? So now the divorce in the name of happiness, what have we taught the children even those that are close to adult age, again, no trust, no foundation, no committment, nothing really matters after all? Tell me you haven't heard the rumbles of an older parent that divorces, with the older child, there is no age at which the dissolution of this structure does not cause difficulties to comprehend as a family member. Similar to an earth quake. We take for granted that the land is solid, we base our every move on the fact that the ground will not shake or open us and swallow us up, just like we are supposed to expect two loving parents will love us, and keep together. Maybe sisemic testing before marriage? Now I know I have lost it.

March 26, 2001
12:33 pm
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Cici
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I'm actually donig research on cultural differences in psychology (specifically Maslow's concept of peak experience as therapy , but whatever).

Road rage, grocery store rage, disgruntled employees and teenagers shooting....it's all white people!!!!

White people, contrary to popular belief, do in fact have a cultural identity. This predisposes them to emotional repression, frustration and depression. Black, hispanic and native american are all a lot more emotionally expressive, culturally. Asians are consistently emotionally repressive, but tend to focus frustrations on themselves (why did I fail the community?). White people tend more towards a sense of entitlement (why did the community fail me?)

This is socialistically the difference between a collectivist (asian) culture and an individualistic (american) culture. Individualistic cultures reward antisocial behavior. Greed, selfishness, putting your well-being ahead of everyone else's. The common theme is "take care of yourself".

These differences have been statistically supported in other multicultural psych studies, which I've been reviewing as backround research for my own project.

It's not a moral compass that is lacking in these communities, it is the fact that the individual is divorced from community support. They live in a social facad os a community but make no real connection to anyone because emotional realness isn't rewarded in american white culture.

March 26, 2001
12:44 pm
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ranmar1
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Molly, Alena, Gingerleigh and Cici,
Thank you all for your tremendous input. I look forward to seeing your responses to my postings. Yes, it is natural to take a step back and wonder what the other party is really doing or how are they being treated. I can comprehend that you are only getting my perspective.
We had discussions over the weekend, and she says to me that she hopes if we do separate, that I will make it easy for her and stay her friend. I told her I would always be there for her, but that I wasn't going to help her separate from me. I told her that I still have feelings for her, and that if a separation was going to happen, she would have to initiate it, but that could change for me. I reiterated that this was not going to be a continuing relationship based on finances. She said she knows she should continue to stay for the sake of the kids and the family, she just doesn't know if she can compromise and "give up her freedom without having to be accountable to me." I told her she never lost her freedom, and that what she confuses accountability with is responsibility.
I told her that I was pissed that she had been going through the motions of counselling, and not even attempting to work on us. She said she was waiting for the counselor to show her the way. I responded by telling her that the counsellor has no direction book or manual, and that he would assist in working with you, but that you had to initiate action before he can help. She feels he is not aggressive enough and wants to go to a female therapist. I said that I hope she didn't feel this way because he wasn't giving her the answers or feedback she wanted to hear. I told her I use to feel sorry for myself when she said she initially wanted to separate, but now I feel more sorry for her. I told her she would be going in a vicious cycle of constantly looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (looking for the thrill, excitement and lust) and never realizing what she already has. I told her that I thought one day, the light might come on and she would realize what she has, or had....and that she may have blown it. (Maybe this is just my ego, I don't think so). I told her that when you go to Disneyland maybe once a year, that is exciting and fun. You don't go every week though, because then it becomes mundane, and that her constant wanting to be excited and thrilled is not realistic, and should be treated as special times. She says she is just bored, I responded to go out and get a job again, or volunteer, do something. She says she does have a full time job, taking care of the kids. I smiled and said to look at her schedule, Monday is gym or golf with the girlfriends followed by lunch out, Tuesday is junior college (still doesn't know what to do with that) followed by lunch with the girlfriends, Wednesday is kick boxing, golf and lunch out. Thursday is her school again followed by lunch with the girlfriends. Friday is golf lessons with a girlfriend, or the gym or both, followed by lunch out. Usually one night is also out with the girls. The only time with the kids, is to get them ready for school, pick up on Tuesday and Thursday from school, and once in a while a home cooked dinner (maybe twice to three times a week). Pretty tough?????? I told her I blame myself for a lot, because I put her on a pedestal, allowed her to do whatever without any boundaries, and didn't expect anything in return.
I know she is now trying different options because she has now been diagnosed as premenopausal. She said she had her hormone's tested, and all was okay. Now she is going to get retested. She is also trying to figure out how to stay in the relationship for the sake of the kids and the family (which her side doesn't know what's happening out of what I think is embarassment). There is so much more to write, I hope this doesn't run on and on. I told her I would not violate my wedding vows to her, and that I will continue to try and be the best father to my girls. I'm just having a hard time trying to be nice to her when she gives me Nothing back in return, just polite superficial conversation. I told her I couldn't believe after almost 15 years of marriage, she could just shut off her feelings to me and treat me the way she has.

March 26, 2001
8:04 pm
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Alena
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Ranmar, I think you can rest assured that your wife is never going to leave you. You allow her to behave whatever way she wants and you also allow her to be the one who makes all the decisions with both of your lives. If she decides to continue on this spending, lunching, golfing, spree with your approval,maybe an occasional scowl, you have said you will let her. You have no intention of leaving or asking her to leave. So what's the decision as far as she is concerned? She has it SO made.

You told your wife you still cared about her and she told you she hoped you can be friends if you two seperate.Did she say she cared about you and hoped to reconcile? She said she knows she should stay for the sake of the kids and the family....hmmm...any mention of how she'd like to be back in love with you again? Any mention of how she'd like to work out your problems so that she could be a wife to you again?
If not, I don't envy you my friend.
This is why I suggested a seperation from her. If she got a taste of life without you, she may miss you. As it is, she's so sure of you she has absolutely nothing to lose. Nothing is going to change in your situation. She is very, very comfortable and couldn't care less how uncomfortable you are. But maybe you are comfortable too. Maybe having her on her terms is better than not having her at all.

March 26, 2001
8:28 pm
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Molly
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Ranmar, this sounds so familiar, are you sure your not the father of my two girls? I swear, your ex wife was me in 1986. Except there were a few other things that were in the way, including him. Not that he was a bad guy, he had his priorities messed up, and I was lost and bored. Most of us had no need, I had the youngest children, only one other woman was considering divorce, the other two were celebrating empty nest syndrome. I didn't feel the impact as much at first, due to the money, but the struggle with life with out him with out his support was felt as soon as the war was over. I had approached him 3 years after, and got blowen off, but she is lost. I would offer to be her counselor, as at the time there was not much support for us to hold on to the marriage. That is why I suggest disconnecting from the drama and letting things ride, but then again, no pain no change. Hindsight is 2020 vision. I am somewhat ok with life today, but the struggle to get here, the waste of a marriage, the financial loss for both of us, but most of all, the fantasy that we all grew up with is dead, the retirement, the grandchildren, the graduation celebrations, are not the same, as I, he , doesn't have the partner to share the success with. My man has risen to be a good person, but there is still that longing in my heart for what I lost. Sad but truth. I wish you luck, but when your unsure of what it is that you want, how do you know what M.D. to go to, devine intervention doesn't happen, I have tried it twice. She doesn't have a clue,I didn't. But I do now. By the way, the other two women in the circle are so very content,families in tact, with grandchildren, and the other woman who did divorce, after one relationship, is so very unhappy, its a struggle, she also had two daughters, both have ended in divorce. Both men, well they have their success in business, and see their children on a regular basis, neither one remarried.

March 28, 2001
2:24 pm
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ranmar1
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Alena and Molly,
Thank you for the feedback. Wow, Alena, you shouldn't be so shy about what you are thinking (kidding). I often wonder too if I am trying to hard to save this thing for the sake of the kids and family, and at what expense and to what degree do I feel I am selling out my self dignity and self respect. I have started to repeat to her that this is not going to be a financial relationship just because I provide the financial security, without any committment to resolve OUR situation. Interestingly, this morning, she said she was going to go with me to the counseling session today, to tell the counselor she is not getting anything out of him, because she feels he is not being aggressive enough. (I've already told her he can't do it without her wanting to start working at it herself.) She wants to find a female therapist to talk with. My youngest daughter, 10yrs. old, ask why she was changing counselors, after hearing our conversation, and my wife responded because of her situation. My daughter asked what the situation was, and I was curious to hear the response. My wife responded that she was like Wendy in Peter Pan, not wanting to grow up, and having problems trying to do so. I thought that was such an accurate statement. Alena, I don't think I could live with myself if I allowed her to continue on her merry way with this lifestyle, with no accountability or responsibility to me. I think I have brought that up in counseling a couple of times. I have already set up a monthly budget for myself and the girls, as well as written down all of our assets and how they would be divided. I call this my "JUST IN CASE" folder. It also contains my notes from the attorney. I think by doing so, I have told myself to be prepared to live without her, and I know deep in my heart, that I could do it if need be. It's just a matter of her wanting to walk out or not. If not, then she will have to come to terms with us.

March 28, 2001
4:59 pm
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Molly
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I think that is fair, for all of you, and I think its great that she has an idea of what she is going through. I just hope that the counselor has enough stregnth to tell her to grow up, and to get over it. Have you ever heard of landmark education, it is the old EST, some recon it to a cult, but when your unclear, there is clarity. Unfortunately that is where some of my harshness comes from when its there. I took it three years after the divorce, not for everyone, but it makes committment, and integrity real clear. I wonder if she has talked to an attourney, and perhaps that is why her Job, is taking care of the kids?

March 28, 2001
7:23 pm
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Alena
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Ranmar, please forgive my big mouth if I hurt your feelings. Sometimes tact is not my strong suit. I think it's the Sagittarius in me. (good enough excuse 🙂 But really, I sure don't mean to come down hard on you. I really feel for you, and your wife, and your girls. It's a rough situation, and certainly not an easy one to solve. Mostly, I hate to see a good guy(or chick) get the shaft when they really don't deserve it.

I wonder what I would think when I was 10 and my mom told me she was having a hard time growing up. I really am sitting here wondering how I would have taken that. Would my faith in her as one of the two people in my life who were my world, have been a bit shaken? Or would I have thought, "Oh hey, that's so cool and mom's so cool"......I don't know.
Maybe I'm being super duper critical of your wife and her excuses, but I just don't think you get a 10 year
old involved in your personal weakness. I would like her to think that there is a problem between mommy and daddy and it in no way reflects my feelings about being your mommy and my strength for you little girl.
Moms are supposed to appear grown up for their children even if they are not. The difference between her and Wendy is that she has 2 children and a husband of 15 years. I'm sure your daughter was under the assumption all these years that she WAS grown up.

Okay, enough of that criticism. I'm glad she's talking. I'm also wondering what she thinks will come of a female therapist...comraderie?
Someone on "her side"? Whatever.
Time will tell. I hope another therapist will seal it for her. Maybe open her eyes and let her see what she has and what she may lose.

Keep on keepin on Ranmar..... and again, didn't mean to be so rough, just trying to get a point across.

March 29, 2001
11:03 am
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ranmar1
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During yesterdays session, I prompted my wife to begin the conversation by telling the therapist she wanted to explore a new one, going to a female one for a different perspective, and maybe more aggressive. He suggested she do so, and my wife asked about his wife, who is also a practicing counselor in the same practice. He gave her the phone number for her to pursue. It came out in counseling that she felt I chipped away at her in the past because when she would ask me to pick up the kids from school, I would ask what she was doing that she couldn't do it. This was at a time when she wasn't working, going out to lunch, the gym, shopping, while I was busting my butt. I guess I had resentment over that. She is so determined not to want to work at this, but then she says she wants to try the female therapist approach first. She says she can't try because there is nothing there, no feelings or emotions. What a cold feeling. She says the only reason she is here is for the kids, and is trying to make sure she is making the right decision. She says she would stay as long as it took for me to realize that there was nothing there. What does this mean? (Will she just ride it out as long as possible, trying to make me the bad guy by my leaving?)
I told her this morning that I can't believe she can't purge all the hurt and anger out on the table and then try to figure us out again, instead of being so sure of herself. Then I realized after saying it, that in a way, I was going in reverse. I can't be concerned about how she deals with it anymore. I don't think she is rational. She agreed with the counselor that it is now becoming really intense in therapy, and that we must continue as a couple, to keep going. I agreed and we are set up for next week. To be continued.

March 29, 2001
7:18 pm
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Alena
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Ranmar, I had a thought.

Do the two of you do anything together? We know that you work and she golfs and lunches, and works out in a gym, but do the two of you share any kind of recreational/entertainment likes?

It would be nice if you could connect with her in something you both like to do. I know that my husband and I spend the weekends together. Period. We go out to eat every Saturday night and go to a movie. Even if it's a lousy movie, we go because we both just enjoy going to this one theater. We always search for a new restaurant.
On Sundays we always do something together. Eat out, go for long rides, out on the boat in the nice weather, go to casinos. My point is that we work hard at staying connected. He has his own night out once a week and I have my own hobbies in which he has no interest. But we always end up at home together at dinnertime during the week and we always talk during dinner. It's a thing with us. For the most part, we are good friends who enjoy being together. That's why I would like to see you and your wife share some sort of "good time" together, equally enjoying the others sport or hobby or whatever.

Do you golf also? Could you golf together? I think if you could find a way to LAUGH together about something, that is often a catalyst for working out problems because we usually trust someone with whom we can laugh. Know what I mean?

Maybe if she wanted to be home with you (someone she can laugh with and trust) she wouldn't be looking for that with her girlfriends,,possible?
I hope so. Maybe you're right about her premenopausal state, maybe she needs to not only hear from you that you love her, maybe she needs an all out show of what life can be like, how interesting it can be, even with menopause setting in. She may need some sort of major reassurance that you not only love her, you are interested in her.

Ya think?

March 29, 2001
8:45 pm
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Alena
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Had another thought, you have 2 young girls so maybe the whole weekend together alone is unreasonable. But scheduled times together for doing enjoyable things is a must. So are IMPULSIVE things together. Not just eating out because that's not really an activity, can leave for alot of blank airtime. But doing something active that you enjoy makes you loosen up a bit.

Get my drift?

March 30, 2001
11:39 am
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ranmar1
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Alena,
Thank you for your insight. The therapist also suggested we try and do some more time together, going out alone. I've taken her out to really nice dinners, movies and drives alone. She brought this up at the last session, that she has tried that and it "doesn't do anything" for her. Are you ready for this one? I still come up and give her a hug and a kiss when I can, usually once a day in the morning when she or I am leaving. Most of the times, she turns her cheek to me, as though I am suppose to give her a peck on the cheek. An interesting analogy by the therapist this last session. He said to her that she had an easier time disconnecting from the relationship than I am having because of the following: He said the relationship is like musical cords being attached. Her cords from her to me are were nice and firm at one time, but not a whole lot of them, so it was easier to cut them. However, the chords running from me to her are thick and extensive, and therefore, I am having a hard time cutting through all of them. She denied it and said she didn't think that was the case. I told him I thought he was right on, and that her small amount of chords was also my validation that I had felt she always had some kind of little wall or barrier up throughout our relationship, and couldn't or wouldn't allow the amount of chords to thicken. I know one thing she is doing is trying to wait me out, wanting me to make the move. I told her it wasn't going to happen, that since she wanted to separate, she would have to make the move. It's like a face off. I just think she is so lost and confused, she has no clue what she is doing or what to do. I honestly feel sorry for her. I told her she is like a ship at sea, with no rudder, and I have been trying to throw her life lines, but she just throws them back.

March 30, 2001
1:55 pm
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Cici
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You are a strong-willed person, Ranmar, and your hard work at this relationship makes me feel a lot of respect for you.

March 30, 2001
5:46 pm
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ranmar1
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Cici,
Thank you for your kind words. I don't know if I'm strong willed or just ignorant. You know, during our last counselling session, my wife says to me and the counselor, after I told her that I felt okay about myself, and that whatever happens, I know I will go forward, that she thinks if we do end up separating, I will be in another relationship quite rapidly because she said I need to have someone, and I can't handle being alone. I don't think that is true. Yes, I would like to share my life with someone who is wanting to do the same with me, that is why I thought we got married in the first place. I use to think I was so old fashion at 47 years old, thinking the way I do about what a marriage and relationship is suppose to be, and that I was out of touch with what it really should be. Mayber I expect too much. Now, I think that she had it all wrong, not me. Anyways, your encouraging words mean a lot to me.
Thank you.

March 30, 2001
9:57 pm
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Alena
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I dont know Ranmar, it just seems like there is nothing positive towards you coming from this woman.

Are you saying that your relationship with her has always been more lopsided on your part? Has she always been distant from you and at arms's length? Did you never have a "friends" type thing going? Were you ever able ever to go out and spend hours together and enjoy it?

If not, I don't know how you can settle into any comfortable, peaceful, warm and fuzzy spot with each other at this time of your lives.
Ya know? I know that finding your way through good and BAD times in your marriage only solidifies the bond because you know you can either depend on that person or not. If you can, then you get to that comfy spot. If not, like you two, it 's real hard (maybe impossible) to get comfy and happy. Something is always missing and you're asking yourself what is it that I'm missing? A huge void emerges as the kids get older and you get older and all of a sudden it's so big you could fall into it.

She sounds as if she is just as you say, floundering out there. But why?
Is this sudden or a slow progression through the years? You can't fix it alone Ranmar. I still think she needs a good dose of "I've had it with this crap and you call me when you grow up,
maybe I'll be around, maybe I won't."
Like I said before, she has no reason to make a move. She may say life is not good, but she continues to go out with girlfriends during the day and sometimes night? Hmmm....

March 31, 2001
6:53 pm
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Here is the latest. She wants to go to another counselor, a female preferred, to ask if what she is feeling is normal or not. She says she is pretty sure (now it's pretty sure whereas before it was definatley) she knows what she wants, she says she needs someone to give her the courage to know it is correct. I told her that the only courage will come from within, and that counseling doesn't hand you the answer, you have to look for it yourself. She asked how I can continue to go along the way I am, and I told her I have a responsiblity to myself and my kids. An interesting discussion with a friend of mine the other night, he suggested that if we separate, I should buy her interest out of it, and thus, maintain the cohesiveness for the kids. I loved the idea, and thought about it. I like this house, and i think I would pursue that course. Why should I upset my roots and that of the girls because she may want to make a move. Let her go find a new place. This way, I at least continue to show some kind of stability with my girls. In our conversations, she continues to display a sense of not knowing what to do. She knows that our life will never be the same, and that I won't tolerate a lot of crap anymore. She knows she is going to either have to grow up, or move on out into her fantasy world.

April 1, 2001
6:47 pm
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gingerleigh
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Ranmar, I know you don't want to tell her to get out, you want her to make the first move. She won't though. I've said this before I think, but sometimes in order to change, people need to hit rock bottom, and with you waiting on her to make the move, she will never EVER hit rock bottom. No, never, not with that safety net Ranmar around. She wants to be alone? Let her be alone, and do everything that being alone entails, such as get a job and her own living quarters.

And as far as the female counselor goes, if she is thinking that a woman is going to validate her feelings and tell her "it's OK to feel this way", whereas a man wouldn't, she's in for a rude surprise.

April 2, 2001
11:47 am
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Gingerleigh,
The problem I am having is not wanting to be the one the girls think forced their mother to get out. I know I am not the one that forced this situation, but she could try and twist it around to tell the girls later on, see, your dad asked me to leave. I want her to be the one to walk if she is going to. I need to have a clear concious (spelling erro probably). I need to know I worked on this relationship even during the crap time, to try and keep it together. I'm sure there will come a time, if this continues as it is, with no emotions or feelings of wanting from her part, I will get sick of it and have to do something about it. She is so confusing. She ran some errands yesterday and called me to come and join her for lunch. Last night, she started talking about my thinking she was crazy. I told her I thought she was totally irrational in her thinking and behavior, and that was different than being crazy. She said she has always done the right thing for herself and the kids...I told her I disagree totally. She wanted examples as it started to get heated, and I told her I wasn't going to let the conversation deteriorate to an argument of trying to justify my thinking of her. Now, I realize she is afraid to follow through on anything. She never called the referral doctor for another hormonal check up, she never followed up on calling a retreat in Arizona for self introspective on ones' life that our counselor had brought up, and so far, has not called any other female counselor. It's the same with her so called career hunting, never following through, just hiding out in junior college. And now, it's the same thing in our relationship, not following through on trying to either resolve or move on.She is trying so hard to get me to believe that I should remain friendly and helpful to her should she decide to act out her fantasy, but says she knows I will act mean and ugly if it goes all the way. I told her I couldn't tell her how I would respond, and that her choices better not be based on how I would respond. She says she is trying to figure things out without hurting the girls or her family, and that she knows (this was interesting) that her parents would blame her for everything.

April 2, 2001
12:23 pm
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Molly
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Hey, she called you for lunch? Seems to me like that would be a sign. Although the lunch conversation got caught up in the drama of all that is going on, she was not hiding out with the friends, BUT CALLED HUSBAND. That seems to me, like one of those moments where she was reflecting on the good, had warm feelings, and wanted the companionship, while she is lost at sea. She is obviously in a limbo state, thus the procrastination, stuck. Since it took so long for the disconnection, didn't she say this started a while back? What makes us think that with all the facts and figures that it magically changes ? What two months of counseling, although it does not appear that she is doing anything, we cannot know what turmoil she experiences in her head. True, it is time to **** or get off the pot, but why can't she take some time since the ultimate goal is to maintain the family as a unit. As long as the trips and spending are under control, what is the rush? She definately needs to follow up with the MD, and I think the female counselor request will be followed up on, and a good idea, but perhaps she is processing what she has received from the male counsleor, and truly reflecting. Optimistic, sure but better than the alternative thought process. She is confused, and knows it, should she leave right now, I doubt she would be able to function. I think the request for a female counselor is not necessarily to validate her goals of leaving, but perhaps to feel heard? This is a what's it all about Alphie moment, and she is lost. Often with the most proactive of clients, sometimes getting it, takes its own time, so just how committed are you to holding on to the marriage, the more one forces change, often the more resistant change is. Just a different thought for the time being.

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