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Help Me Please x 2!!!
February 19, 2001
10:52 pm
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Helenof Troy
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1) DRAW THE LINE
2) IF SHE CROSSES IT
3) GET A GOOD LAWYER & GET RID OF HER
4) DO NOT REPEAT STEPS 1 & 2

Sounds pretty easy but harsh and raw, doesn't it? Truth is.. it's the hardest reality to come face to face with..but it's gotta be done for your sake and for the 2 girls' EVEN MORE SO!! Wish you the best.

February 20, 2001
10:48 pm
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Alena
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Ranmar, any good news from your attorney appt. today?

Are you feeling any better?

February 21, 2001
1:41 am
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lost soul
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ranmar1,

how's thing getting on? have not hear from you recently. hope you are ok.

February 21, 2001
7:26 pm
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I'm doing fantastic everyone, thank you. I've had my appt.. An unbelievable awakening,,,,she doesn't have a clue how little she would have to live on if she pushes this all the way. It's amazing what a little bit of knowledge can do for ones self esteem. I asked her if she felt she wants to try and regain her feelings of "excitement, lust and thrill" and she said yes. I guess that is some positive sign. I'm waiting for the right time to tell her that her actions will also be a signal to me as to what her direction is. This way she becomes accountable. I felt guilty going to the lawyers without her knowledge, but quickly got over that feeling when I looked back at all the things she has done without me. My girls are doing great. We have spent some really good times together. I will continue to work on our relationship, and hopefully she will too. If not, then it will be up to me to make a life changing decision which will affect all. Small bit of info from the lawyer, and it's unfortunate but true in California, after a divorce, the ex-wife's income goes down 40-45% while the ex husbands income goes up 5-15%. Unbelievable.......I hope it doesn't get down to this. I will keep everyone updated as I can. Right now there are too many eyes and ears wondering around my house. Talk to you all later.....Best wishes to all of you.......

February 21, 2001
9:52 pm
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Molly
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those numbers from personal experience are off, the ex wife, usually goes down 75% and the husbands up, and up and up!!!! The most important part is that you are taking action to preserve what you have established. Hang on and to the girls as well. I am glad that you took this step, do not feel guilty for protecting you and your daughters. She is in La la land, and is in for a very rude surprise, that I would not want to wish on any one. Keep on, keeping on.

February 23, 2001
11:47 am
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ranmar1
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Thank you Molly. I hope the day never comes where I have to resort to this, but if she keeps pushing away, I will have a hard time pretending that it's okay, and continue to put up with her new "self discovery". I've read my past threads and it's mind boggling to see the differences in feelings and emotions over such a short period of time. I, like everyone else, never thought I would find myself in such a situation. I guess this is all part of the life cycle nobody told us about.

February 23, 2001
12:20 pm
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Molly
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No kidding, like a Soupy Sales movie. The worst for all is the after math, the relationship sadly will never be the same, you can forgive, but never forget. I hope she comes to her senses before she ruins everything. We so think and take the moment for granted, not realizing the future. This will really effect your girls self esteem in their relations in the future, even though they see its mom acting out, the trust in forever, and committment has been distorted. It will be most difficult on them as their independence blooms, whos house for Thanksgiving, or Christmas, yada yada, that the wife, I am sure in her self centered moment hasn't even thought of. But talk to any family of divorce, it sucks, and is what has undermined our society, the power of the family as a unit destroyed, and where do you go after that?

February 23, 2001
6:14 pm
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ranmar1
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Molly,
You are obviously thinking along the same lines as I do, the family unit. I am trying and will continue to fight like [email protected]!% to keep this family unit together, with mother and father. I too, shudder when I think of the ramifications of not being together not only during holidays, but during everyday routines as well. I truly feel that my wife is going through a crisis within, of wondering if this is all there is, and should she accept or compromise. I don't think she has a clue what the alternative is, and how shallow, lonely and unsupportive the real world can be. That's probably because I have caused that by being so protective and wanting to always give.
Stay tuned. I hope you and everyone else have a wonderful, peaceful and loving weekend.

March 4, 2001
8:09 pm
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ranmar1
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Hi everyone. It's been a while. Here is the latest. Not much has changed from her perspective, as it appears she is "stuck" trying to decide what to do. I know it's because of finances as well as family. She really hasn't addressed anything about us, other that saying she enjoys when I travel, even though it use to bother her, and she doesn't know if she is capable of having any kind of intimate relationship. What a sad commentary. I'm almost at the point where I don't care what she thinks. My only concern is for the kids and my own welfare. I know now, that I won't be devestated financially, and that I would go on seeking a relationship where there is no hiding of feelings, or holding back. I want the relationship to be totally open and honest, with a true consideration of each others feelings. Here's a great example. While I was out of town last week from Monday until Wednesday, I mentioned to my wife that I would like to try this new restaurant we kept passing by. We set up a date to go Wednesday night when I got back. When I called her Tuesday night, guess where she was with her girlfriend? You got it.......having dinner at that restaurant. What't wrong with this picture.As you can tell, I'm having a hard time hiding my anger, but I'm doing a pretty good job of it. There is no affection between us now. She has totally been stone cold, and I just can't keep pushing and pushing. I told her that from here on out, I will interpret her actions as a signal to me as to what direction she is heading. I don't think it registers at all. I have a session with the counselor this Friday. I'll keep you all posted. Best to all. I miss hearing from all of you.

March 5, 2001
5:02 pm
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Molly
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Sounds like she is in game mode. Why does she want you to hurt? Sounds like she has shut down on all feelings, far less respect. Can you think of what you may or may not have done to her to react like this? It is possible, that it is all influence from the single friends, but she is acting intentionally , would punishment be a good description?

March 9, 2001
11:39 am
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ranmar1
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She has mentioned in some of our discussions that she has tried to blame me for her feelings and find fault, but can't. She says it is a problem she is having. Some of her statements are very revealing. "I don't want to be comfortable in a relationship". She says she would take it for granted if she was comfortable. She is very unaffectionate, and now looking back, I realize she has always been that way, just like her parents, who tolerate each other. I'm "allowing" her to be totally selfish right now, everything is "I, Me, I want, I wish, I'm going to.....". Nothing is "we". I will tolerate this for a while. I have a session with my counselor today, with a lot of notes I want to throw out to him. I'll keep you posted after the session.

March 10, 2001
1:57 pm
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My session was yesterday. To recap, the therapist feels it is time for me to "roll up my sleeves and get into it". I'm so pissed off right now I can't stand it. I'm finding out that I have been financing her excursions with her girlfriends on these trips and out to dinners and lunches. She even picks up the tab and puts it on the credit card. This Thursday is a couple session, and I think all you know what is going to break out from me. I'm no longer going to stand back and let my self esteem and self respect and dignity be compromised by her. The therapist suggested that maybe I be the one to introduce the subject of separation and the mechanics of it. She has made such an effort to detach from us, that no effort on her part has been made to remedy it. He threw out a bombshell to me, which has stuck in my mind. He wondered out loud if all her hanging around with her female friends, is a sign that she may be attracted to them.After all, all of her free time is spent with the same two girlfriends, and she says this is where her "emotional fulfillment" comes from. I'm going to ask her if this is where she finds her "thrills, excitement and lust"as well.
Stay tuned. This is going to now become more uncomfortable for me, but it has to come out.

March 11, 2001
9:19 pm
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Molly
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Well, I hear your anger, and can only imagine what it must be like to be in the hall way when you two pass each other. DUH, you have been financing the FUN, like she cares???? She takes it for granted, or its vindictive..
Yes, sir it is about time for you to spell out what the seperation is going to cost her, excuse me, what the seperation will be like for her. Hiccup! You know, could be having fun in the gay sector, however one thing I have learned in my maturity, is that women need women friends, we need to cackel like hens, we need to compare child rearing, we need to share recipes, we need to vent, and hear each other. This stuff stopped in the U.S. long ago. Go figure, just like the mother daughter thing. Women used to do things together, thus less pressure on the MAN for friendship. Of course that was before we wanted you guys to learn to talk, listen and have feelings. I get that you are a good guy, a totally unsuspecting victim, that has made it in the corporate world, and some how---- now this is a long streach and don't think I am taking her side, because no matter what she is wrong for the way she is acting out, but could she have felt less than and this is the power play act out??????????? I hope you scare her , I hope that she has a change of mind, and heart, I so sincerly wish this would calm down and get together with renewed vows and excitement. But in the meantime sock it to her.

March 12, 2001
3:33 am
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Ranmar, whaasssaaaap? I've been away from the group for a while, out of the country on business, and just tuned back into your experiences. Just three little words:

WAY TO GO. You have come so far.

Keep us posted.

Oh, and btw, Ranmar, you were also following my problems a few months back. Well, things are better, I'm happier and healthier, and am in the bizzare position of having a completely full social calendar, even dates with good looking charming young men. Whoda thunk? Anyway, as for the ex, he has already moved in with another woman, someone who used to be very close friends with us. Turns out that my ex and she were closer "friends" than I thought. When I heard that they were moving in together, so much of the last 6 months of the marriage made sense, the withdrawing, the frequent trips to the city where she lived, etc. Oh well, I always thought they made an appropriate couple. (Sick tends to attrack sick.) I'm freed up to find my right match now. Not having great luck so far, but I am having fun for the most part.

Anyway, that's it. I know it's really rough on you right now, but you will get through this and you will be much happier and healthier for it. Good luck for Thursday, stay strong.

March 15, 2001
12:17 pm
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ranmar1
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Gingerleigh,
You give me inspiration and hope that there is a favorable outcome in all of this. I've grown angry, resentful and frustrated with my wife. She doesn't seem to be making any attempt at all to work on the relationship. There is so much I'm observing about her and her behavior. I think she has mentally separated in her mind, just hasn't figured out how to do it physically. I still think she has been faking it, and knew all along that she wanted to separate, just wanted to justify it by going through the motions of counseling. Some of her statements have been so bizarre.
Examples: "I don't want to be comfortable in my relationships. I find my emotional fulfillment from my girlfriends. Your feelings are deep and from the heart, mine are on the surface (her quote to me)." The doctors have discovered a benign cyst on an ovary. She says this is the result of a dead end relationship. Our counselor told me last week, in my own one on one, that it's time I roll up my sleeves. He obvioulsy knows that she is not doing her part, and that I need to start making more noise and turning up the heat. I truly feel she hasn't made the jump because of financial reasons. I told her in conversation, that if she is so unhappy, and loves her single lifestyle with her friends, that she is the one that is going to have to move, not me. I'm not the one wanting to make a separation. She was suprised. I also told her that I wasn't going to allow this to me a financial relationship, where she feels compelled to stay based strictly on finances. I don't know if any of this is registering with her. The final episode occured this weekend. We went over to one of her girlfriends house, (the one who called the police on her husband during one dispute) and I went outside to talk with him. He told me about their problems, and that she told him she doesn't get the emotional fulfillment that she does from her friends, that she loves him, but is not In Love with him, and that she wants the excitement, thrill and lust of life. Does this sound familiar? I almost fell out of my chair. Great coaching they are all giving each other. Anyways, today is a couple counseling session, and I plan to confront her with the lack of trying to make any attempts, asking what these bizarre statements mean, and telling her that she wants the best of both worlds, to be single, free and able to come and go when she wants, but that she wants the security of a financial stability at home, and that she can't have both.
I will keep you posted. Congrats on working through your situation. You sound great and that things have finally swung back into your well deserved direction.

March 15, 2001
9:47 pm
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Well, the @^%@ hit the fan today at counseling, as I thought it would. I brought in notes that I made about how I felt, her not even showing an inch of wanting to work on the relationship, wanting to be free and single, but doesn't want to give up the financial security that I offer (I referred to myself as the ATM person). I told her that she is inconsiderate of my feelings and puts her friends at top priority in planning events and outings without me. I told her that I thought she has mentally disconnected already, and was just trying to figure out how to do it physically. She countered back that I shouldn't have to make notes, but should confront her right then and there when I have these feelings. I told her, in the past, when I did that, she would respond by saying I was making it easier for her to make the decision. I told her today I wouldn't accept her threats anymore, and that if she wanted so hard to leave, maybe she should consider moving on. She blew up when she accused me of saying she wasn't a good mother. She said I can hurt her in any other way, but not to take that away from her. I said I never accused her of not being a good mother, but that she should sit with the girls, individually and nonconfrontational, and ask them how they feel, since they have already voiced their opinion to me. She bawled at this. I asked if she was willing to try and work on us, and she said probably not. The counselor interceded and told her that this was a bold statement, and hopefully out of emotion. He suggested that we try and spend some time together this next week, cool off, and come back next Thursday for another couple session. He said either we both communicate with each other on disagreements right then and there, or the relationship is destined to doom. At this point, I am so disgusted by her actions and lack of feeling, I'm almost at the point where I don't care anymore what she decides. I told her in counseling, that I am going forward with wanting to share my feelings, affections, intimacy, and values with someone who wants to share the same with me, and that I was no longer going to try and convince her to do what I percieved as the right thing to do. I told her I would not walk out, that I have a responsibility to uphold my marriage vows and responsibilities to the family. I guess that's it for now. More to come.

March 16, 2001
2:55 pm
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How are you holding up Ranmar?

What a wild session. Real feelings are coming out, and despite what the counselor says about hoping that her answer was coming out of emotion, oftentimes that first emotional gut answer is the real answer we feel inside. In the heat of the moment, sometimes, we are too absorbed to cover over our real feelings anymore, and bam, the truth comes out.

That's sad, her using you like an ATM. Have you cut off her $$ supply? Revoked her cash card, if you will?

When I was in your situation, I was working with my ex, and we were both project managers at the same company. When I had so much that I couldn't take any more, I sat him down and told him that he had a new deliverable, due on such-and-such a date, and he could select one of two workplans to deliver. Workplan (a) was the plan to show how he planned to work out the issues in our relationship. Workplan (b) was the plan to get out of my life and compensate me fairly for what I had given him monetarily. It sounds like a hokey approach, but it worked, and I got the deliverable from him. It was a method of communication that we both understood and were comfortable with. And, surprise, he delivered Workplan (b) to me, and has so far met each of the task dates on it. (Granted, there is a lot of project management and followup I had to do with him to make those dates *grin*) Putting it in a tangible format that both of us could read and agree to made it more permanent and final.

So the point of this story is that we came to an agreement on how to proceed by using a communication method that was familiar and comfortable to both of us. It sounds like the forum provided by the counselor is helping, but puts each of you on the defensive at times. Makes it hard to speak from the heart without feeling vulnerable and attackable. Just an observation from your posts. Writing things down seems to help you, perhaps it would her as well.

Sorry to ramble on so long, I'm wishing all the best for you. I hope that things will work out for you and your wife, I really do, but even if they don't, you WILL be OK.

March 16, 2001
6:04 pm
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wow, proud of you Sir, she needed to get a reality check, and guess she got it. I am so sorry for you and the girls, and for your wife in the next two years. She has a very rude awakening, she has destroyed your love and affection, she has changed the dynamics of the family, So stupid, and selfish. She will regret it, know this. Not that this will bring you peace, but she is wrong, so very very wrong.

March 17, 2001
8:32 am
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Alena
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Ranmar, you know what, I wish you could find a way to have a legal seperation from her. I've always found that time away from a person either makes you realize how much you had and are on the verge of losing, or that hey, this is better.

You just seem to be spinning your wheels and she keeps on living the good life. She sounds so sure of you and I think it's because you make her feel that way. You keep saying how you will react, but you're still there, putting up with her immaturity. Please don't take that as a criticism. I know how hard it is, been there. But when I actually left my husband for 3 months and had no contact with him, he spun around so fast it was like he was on a Top! She needs a reality check real quick, she's had this freedom to play her games for quite a while now and she's really enjoying it. I don't believe she has any intentions of stopping. If she had a taste of what life would be like without you, she may just wake up. What if you just got mad and stayed in a hotel for a while and only had contact with the girls and TOTALLY ingored her. Don't see her, speak to her, force her to see what it would be like if you didn't love her and were no longer someone whom she could depend upon.

Just a thought. Maybe too radical for you, but as Dr. Phil would say about the way it's going now "How's it working for you?" It doesn't seem to be getting any better from her. She is SO taking advantage of you and your devotion. It just is not right.

March 17, 2001
11:51 am
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Molly
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I agree Alena, that is why I have pounded the financial end of things. But it is a hard choice to make, and took me a long time to get up the nerve to draw the final line. Emotionally though I was dried up in the give a damn department, and did not trust or care when he jumped to attention. I fear Ranmar is getting to that point, or is there now. but why should he leave, and disrupt the slight stability that the girls have, and he can't toss out an unemployed, dependent spouse, the court would eat him alive, she is abusive, but not in a legal way. I think our man here is stuck. I get that he pays for her to stay or leave? Not fair.

March 18, 2001
8:28 pm
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Alena
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Well, the reason I like Ranmar leaving is because that leaves a definite void in her home. If she leaves, it's like a vacation, stuff to keep her busy, staying in a motel for her. But when you get up every morning and someone is missing from the REAL world you live in day to day, it's a preview of what your life could be like if you don't shape up.

I realize he is financially responsible either way, but I think from his previous posts, he can afford it. And I don't mean for a long time. I've been the one at home when HE leaves and I didn't like the feeling. I didn't feel like I was in control, I felt the one left behind. I hated being home because I missed him and he was definitely missing and everything all day long seemed out of place. When I left, however, I didn't quite miss him. He wasn't missing from my life out on my own.

Ranmar seems all along like he wants this to work. She seems as though nothing he says or the therapist says is getting through to her. She acts as though she couldn't care less about making it work. She seems to be pushing him further and further away. This would be a good test to see if he/she really would care if the other was gone, and if she didn't have him in her daily run-of-the-mill life with her girls and her home, would she miss the man? Would it be a wake up call for what's to come? If she wasn't so sure of his love, would she be worried of losing it? She certainly doesn't seem worried now. I don't think she thinks he's serious.
No, it's not fair. In my opinion, every day that he goes on working to make this marriage survive, she knows she has another day to go in the opposite direction with no consequences. I think she needs to feel the consequences, not hear about them.

Unless he plans to go on like this forever, in a loveless, respectless marriage for the sake of the girls, they are eventually going to either love each other again, or split. And in that case, the girls will lose some stability in their lives. I think we'd all like to see him with his girls happily ever after. That could happen too if she wants to chuck all the responsibilities and party-on. Right now, I just think she's hearing his feelings as idle threats. To me, she sounds like a woman who is just biding her time until it's over. Ranmar, she is purposely hurting you and THAT'S really not fair.

March 19, 2001
4:49 am
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lost soul
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Hi Ranmar, I am still following your thread. I didn't contribute any words because I don't know what kind of advises can I offer. But what I can tell you is Your pains & hurts will subsides with time.

The moment you let it go ( mentally or physically ) you will be free.

So, take care & I hope things will be better for you & your girls each day.

March 22, 2001
11:40 am
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Well, here it is, almost three months later, and I can't believe the range of feelings and emotions I have gone through. Yesterday, she says she knows the right thing to do is to stay because of the kids, and that she is too afraid to venture out on her own (another words, hey, this lifestyle is pretty good, why screw it up). I told her again this is not going to be a financial relationship, and that life is full of compromises, and that she is going to have to learn to grow up and learn this. She said she knows she is independent, and enjoys the life she lives, and doesn't know if she can compromise. She asked that we sit down and put a list together as to what I want, and what she wants, then explore if it is capable of being done or not. She said if we didn't have kids, she probably would have left a while ago (great for the ego, huh?) To tell you the truth, I don't know if she is capable or if I trust her in really wanting to work on this, or if she is just buying time. I told her she hasn't done anything to attempt to work in a positive direction, that she was like a boat at sea without a rudder, no direction or movement. She said she hasn't gotten anything out of counseling, and that she thought he would teach her how to work on things. I told her there is no instruction manual on how to do it, and that she has to do it on her own. We have another joint counseling session today. I'm really having mixed feelings as to if I really want her to stay. There is no way I'm going to tolerate her current lifestyle behavior, and undermine my self respect and dignity. But, I have to think of my girls too.
Look forward to your feedback everyone.

March 22, 2001
7:10 pm
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Alena
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Ranmar, do either of you ever mention "love" or "miss you" or "don't want to lose you"?

Counseling won't work if you don't want it to work. I believe the reason she says it hasn't worked is because you, and the counselor, and all three of you together are supposedly heading down a path of therapy eventually leading to a happy ending of you and your wife making it work. right? I get the feeling from everything you write that she doesn't want to go that route. I don't mean to hurt you, but hasn't she just about made it clear that she wants out and the only reason she hasn't gone for it is because of the finances. How can you think about living like that? Aren't you too young to stay in a loveless, emotionless, sexless, "arrangement" of a marriage? Will continuing therapy make her love you and want you again? A counselor cant do that. I think only time missing you and being without the constant security of you will do it, if anything.

Do you love her? Would you want to live with her like this forever just for the opportunity to stay with her?
And what about your girls? No, I don't think that divorce is a good thing. But I also don't believe in giving up your life and what happiness you could have left, for your children. They aren't babies. I know everyone has their own opinions, but what happiness are you going to give them if you are miserable? I just think before anyone jumps into a divorce they need to make a personal assesment of their personal situation. What would be better, what would be worse. Sometimes children gain more stability and self-worth by watching their parents seperate amicably and maturely than living together stoically and stunted.

Hang in there...stay cool.

March 23, 2001
11:54 am
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Cici
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Ranmar, I have been following the thread. I have no advice to give, but I will try to send good thoughts your way, and keep you in my prayers. You are a very strong person to deal with this situation in such a mature, thoughtful way. Good luck to you, I am confident that things will work out for the best for you because you seem to have a solid self-concept.

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