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Help Me Please- Where is everyone?
July 24, 2001
12:02 am
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ranmar1
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Molly and everyone, where are you? I'm so glad this site is back up. So much to share with you. The wife is wacko, and now it's getting to the point where I am ready to file. Write back so I can bring you all up to speed.
Randy

July 24, 2001
8:42 am
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Alena
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Ranmar, been wondering how you've been too. Life is life here. So, what's goin on Amigo?

July 24, 2001
10:28 am
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ranmar1
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Hey Alena, finally a voice (posting) from the old gang. Life here is getting to be a little more intense. The future x is in crazy land. We still share the same house, even the same bed, although I put pillows between us. My attitude is that I'm not going to be forced out of my environment, my house, my kids, my own bed by her stupidity. She is intent on going through with a separation/ divorce. At our last weeks counseling session with her counselor, together, her counselor asked for my position, and I clearly stated that I couldn't believe how she would not even try to make any attempt to want to talk, compromise or make any move toward working at us. The counselor looked at her and asked if she heard what was being said, asking for an opening, where she responded there is no opening. Then the counselor told her she would have to file with an atty, I shouldn't have to, and that she would have to do all the work since this is her deal and she is the one that wants to leave. She insist this "Earl is just a good friend, a listener," however, I'm not totally stupid. Even my 14yr old suspects something is going on with her mother, just doesn't know with who. There is a lot more, but that is the latest. I can't believe I go through day by day with all this pretending, lying and denial on her part. How insensitive and clueless. I wonder if she will ever realize what she has done to us, to me and especially to our girls.

July 24, 2001
11:47 am
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gingerleigh
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My own personal biased unprofessional and unsolicited opinion is that ya, she's ritz bitz allright. (That's "crackers" to those not familiar with the snack aisle.)

Is she going to file? Are you? Do you want out, or do you still want to make it work?

July 24, 2001
12:56 pm
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Alena
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Ranmar, I understand that you don't want this. I understand that you're still hurting so badly, you keep hoping she will wake up and smell the love before she makes a permanent move. From what you say, I just can't see that happening. She is already "out" of this marriage isn't she? All that's left is the body. But because you've always provided for her and been the manager, per se, she is not sure what to do or how to do it. But, one thing sounds for sure, she has at this moment, given up on this relationship. That's how I see it.

I also understand how you feel about wanting to keep your own home, surroundings, bed, etc., but how is that working for you? Sleeping next to someone I loved who did not act as though they loved me, would break my heart on a nightly basis. Yearning to touch that someone, and yet trying to be tough and not roll into them in the middle of the night, is a horrible way to try to sleep. Been there, when we've gone to bed mad and I mean really mad, I don't want to give up my bed but damn, if I'm gonna touch him and make him think I'M trying to make up......and to say nothing of the fear of rejection..
I don't know how you do it. And I don't know why you do it. I can't imagine that it makes you feel better.

You are allowing her to do this to you Randy. You are allowing her. You may not be saying, "here I am, step on me all you want, I'll take it...", but you're passive behavior is telling her you'll take it all. Is it relevant what she feels for Earl? What she feels for you is the problem right now. Maybe the two issures are related indirectly, but as far as I see it, you still need to deal with her lack of feeling for you.

Do the two of you have any interaction at all? Any relationship at all? Is there any talk of reconciliation on her part? If not, what's the question? Just how long before she figures out how to leave, maybe with help from Earl.

Sorry, I wish you had better news, I wish I could think of something positive to say, but her answer to the counselor said a mouthful.

July 24, 2001
1:22 pm
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Molly
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Sounds like she is positioning her self to have her cake and eat it too.
I read, she said there is no opening, for discussion of making it work, so what is she waiting for ? Earl is not signifigant in this discussion, what is signifigant is the toddler like tantrum with no foreward movement on her part. She wants her freedom with out the cost of all her benifits, she is not going to budge until she feels that she will continue to have her cake and eat it too, its a stand off to make you give in to her wants, just like a tantrum. Legally protect your self, and see what your options are, again, I say hurt her where it is going to hurt, money and all that YOUR money gets her. Restructure. Get her off your cards, the first trip to Nordstroms and she gets declined will wake her up, give her $5 a day for lunch and essentials, she won't like it, I promise. There was a great article in the LA Times this morning where a man left his wife, after 18 years was ordered to pay alimony and took and early retirement, it debated weather or not a man had to continue a job for his ex-wifes alimony, think about it, and get mad real mad, and go for her juglar. That living together in the middle of war is insane.
The girls are not stupid, they know there is something up, but don't say anything to feed it, that is the hard part. The key is to stay focused on you, and the girls. Cover your assetts, and take controll, quit the passive agressive behavior. give up the fantasy, its over she said so in the session. let her hang, she has no remorse now, let her go.

July 24, 2001
2:40 pm
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ranmar1
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Wow, welcome back everyone. This is what I've missed, your sense of rationale and reason. I think I'm at the point where it's time to take the step and file. I'm going to my counselor for the first time in a while, and want to tell him that I want to proceed. She went back to an atty. yesterday, and I found her print out of what she thinks she is entitled to. What a bunch of crock. She used a figure that isn't even close to being real after my business expenses, and came up with a ridiculous number, 6000K + for the first 170 days, and then 5200 after that for spousal support and child support. She hasn't presented this to me yet. I almost fell out of my chair when I saw this. After I calmed down, I looked at it again, and saw how stupid and inaccurate it was. But, that's her whole thing, this whole lie is stupid, inaccurate,and full of deciet and hiding. You guys are right, I have to become more pro-active and less passive about all this. I just keep looking at the kids and I guess I feel, I'm doing good by them by not initiating action. But, you are all probably correct, it probably is worse for them. Here is a good episode today. My two girls are going to an InSync concert tonight with some friends. My soon to be ex is driving them up, waiting for them and then driving back. It's about 60 miles each way. Well guess who else she is picking up at her house? The daughter of her "just male friend." Also, she doesn't know if the "just male friend" is going to come out to pick up her daughter at the concert, or have my soon to be x drop her back off at the house. This was brought up by my daughters in the car today, and my wife had a stone cold look when it came out. At this point, who cares.......I figured I would let her squirm a little. After all, it's "just a good male friend." Boy, i hope he is getting ready for her. He's going to need it.
Look forward to keeping you all updated. I still have to work on realizing this idiot is out for herself, and the hell with who else is effected.
I'm sooooo glad everyone is back..

July 24, 2001
3:13 pm
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Molly
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Earl is in for it, and I think I can hear your synical laughter, good ridance, but be careful with the legal stuff, and I see no reason for you to play fair, its your work, your effort, and all she did was lie, play, plan, lie, get your plan of action !!!!

July 24, 2001
3:21 pm
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ranmar1
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Thanks Molly, I missed you and everyone else. How is your situation?
Any improvement at all?

July 24, 2001
6:36 pm
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janes
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Hey there....have you changed your bank accounts? Charge and credit cards?
Stopped paying for her car insurance?

Or...if that seems to drastic have you given her an itemized weekly bill of the things you pay for....for her?

Hang in there....you may want to also talk to your counselor about the girls...maybe a group session esp. if they are getting suspicious...check with them.

Sure willl make you come off as the better aprent if you have their mental health as part of your concerns too.

July 24, 2001
11:04 pm
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ranmar1
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I guess I've been gone too long, and forgot what I haven't posted. My 14 yr old suspects Mom is having an affair, she just doesn't know with whom. She has been deeply affected by her mother's behavior, lack of dignity or behaving like a mother. I truly think my soon to be x is a total mental case. I just got a call from a friend of mine, who told me Earl has been waiting for over a year and a half for her. He has a home in Florida and one here in Ca. that he commutes back and forth to. He shares custody with his x and his daughter. I have been running wild in my mind thinking my soon to be x planned this out with him, just waited for the right time, then will join him. She will want me to have custody every other two weeks so she can travel too. For those of you that remember, back in May, she went to Florida by "herself" just to get away. B.S.. I asked if she was by herself and she said yes. I bet she wasn't, or was just checking things out. How coincidental. I need to start becoming more proactive in ending this. I already cancelled her Amer. Ex card and a Visa. I told her I wanted to simplify our lives by doing so. I also sent letters to every acct. she holds, stating I would not be financially responsible any more for any debt she incurs on any joint acct., and am in the process of closing them. I am living with a lunatic. I'm looking forward to ending this soon. Enough games....

July 25, 2001
1:16 am
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Molly
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Way to go Randy, and if by the way, I have ever posted anything negative about my sister, I ugh ugh must have been possessed, or something. Due to the fact that her boy friend has been going through one of the longest, and expensive divorces I have ever heard of, and he is a lawyer as well, I often mention your situation, so while we are on the phone, discussing your life, she has dsl, and logs on, thus the disclaimer. She suggested, since I don't see her post, that you record and document all monies spent on this affair, or on dear old Earl, because the court can make her pay it back, as this is community property. And its about time sir, that you took said action on your accounts, one of the laws that does not exist, is how you provide for her. I am surprised about the Florida thing, thought she had family there or something, remember the whole thing, DUH, no different than days of our lives, sorry.:) It was also suggested that you not file, something about intent,? go figure, games, but I would create the worst situation comfort wise for her while she is there, like Janes suggested, car insurance yada yada yada. Under your name, well time for it to be parked, ugh can't afford it, business is bad isn't it, emotional destress, can't work, oh, going to the therapist, the m.d. can't sleep,and that has a direct effect on your business, oh, putting savings into college trust funds in the name of your parents and the girls, her name excluded!!!!! Getting your bank accounts all of everything in the name of your parents, and you, only, let her push her way out, you have so much more power while you are married, don't push the court, think about it, be slightly vindictive, and evil while thinking about it, get creative, bad business debt, need to take out a second mortgage on the house, reduce the equity, carefully, are you thinking yet??????????
About home, well I took the stand didn't go to the river with him and his, asked if he was being punished and said yea, got some threats, and the check up calls, passed all the tests, and got a born again husband, not to worry, I have head on straight, but am enjoying the honey moon, with a touch of sadness, remorse, and anger, however, swinged a beach house for a week south of the border. So, the month and a half of hell has slowed, and the b.s. is in full gear. Real estate sucks, and the market is strange. But all is ok

July 25, 2001
4:41 pm
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gingerleigh
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AARRRAAAGHHHMMPPPHHHHGRRRLPH! Waiting for her for a year and a half?!?!?!

*GL turning purple over here*

July 26, 2001
12:46 am
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ranmar1
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Hey group. I just found the biggest revelation through all of this. Go to
http://www.n-courage.net
It is all about Narcissism. I couldn't believe what I found. When you go to the descriptions of the different forms of Narcissism, look up Body Shaper. There may as well be a picture of my wife next to the description. I couldn't believe what I saw. This is the biggest revelation I have had. She is so extremely underwater with Narcissism, and I now know I was the victim, feeding into her neurosis. I can't believe the revelation. I came back from my counseling session today, and the word and brief description of Narcissism came into conversation. Not knowing the true meaning, I went to yahoo, and typed in the word. I found this site, with an on line support group, which I signed up for. I think this is the beginning of the final chapter for me and her. I think I now have an understanding of why she has behaved the way she has, and now know, that my marriage was destined to fail, no matter what I did. Please check out the site and then respond. I'm feeling pretty good in knowing that it wasn't me, it was her all along.
Randy

July 26, 2001
1:16 am
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gingerleigh
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Hiya Randy.

I found that site a few months back, and it did indeed strike a chord with me. I felt that AHA LIGHTBULB sensation too, regarding my ex husband. But I've had a chance to reflect further, would like to share my thoughts with you, see what you think...

I guess what bothers me most about it is that given the different types of narcissists described, can't we all identify with some of the traits described? Your wife might be a "body shaper", but then don't we also exhibit some traits of a "rescuer"? Does that mean that we are narcissists too? Perhaps...

I would caution against using labels to compartmentalize her. She's still a human being, misguided and hurtful perhaps, but still a complex human, as we all are. Focus on yourself, work at getting in touch with your emotions, reactions, positive qualities, flaws, beliefs and needs. She has proven that she isn't mature enough to be with you and treat you right. She has her own spiritual journey to embark on now, and only she can take it.

Thoughts?

July 26, 2001
11:45 am
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ranmar1
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Gingerleigh,
Hi there. You are right, we all possess some of the traits, but to different degrees. When it becomes extreme, as in any situation such as eating, smoking, drinking, etc., it becomes an addiction and an illness. Where and who measures the degree of such is a question to me. However, we all look for answers and reasons to behavior we don't understand, to validate that we are okay. I think the intensity of this behavior is such that a caution flag is rising. She will follow the same pattern with Earl (her just male friend) and allow him to fall for her, then she will allow him to give and give, until either he starts questioning the shallowness of it all, with the intensity of return becoming less and less, or he will put up with it as I did, and compromise himself until she walks away again. In any case, when he reaches a frustration level, he has shown no apprehension in starting another relationship with a married woman, so long as he gets his needs met. I, for one, look forward to getting my own life back, not having to compromise my values anymore, and break the cycle of being co-dependent on my soon to be x.

July 26, 2001
12:34 pm
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Molly
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Which was my point a while ago, this is the type of individual that she will attract, so let her karma work for her, and you have your integrity, with your karma to follow. Like Gingerleigh stated very well, focus on you. Forget about Earl, and don't get as caught up in the psychology of the pile of poop, as you need to cover your self legally, which is a whole, library of material your going to need to memorize. I heard there was a good book called the power of focus, haven't found it yet, but it might be good for you right now. ditch the drama, maybe the Art of War?

July 26, 2001
1:12 pm
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Alena
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The Power of Focus, Jack Canfield, about 10.50 at Amazon. I've heard good things about it.

Ranmar, I think this is your "anger" stage of the stages of grief or death, or however that goes. Stay angry, but don't let it eat you up. "Earl" makes you so angry you could spit, wife is acting so stupid, you just can't understand her behavior and so identifying her as narsisistic maybe helps you digest it. That's good, whatever it takes to help you out. But don't get lost in it. YOU and YOUR GIRLS are number one now. The end results of her behavior will be enough for her to bear someday, and you will be well on the road to recovery by then...keep moving forward, don't stand still and fester. It isn't going to get back to the way it was for the two of you, so do what Molly and GL say, as a matter of fact, print Molly's recommendations on your money legalities. Do it.

Don't focus on her, focus on YOU.
Are you getting out? Are you doing something for entertainment? Got buddies?

Jaynes' suggestion about counseling for girls is a good one I think. Can't hurt.

July 26, 2001
7:15 pm
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Molly
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I think counseling for the girls might be a good thing too, but then he will have to be careful, that the court doesn't think he is brainwashing them against mom, this family law thing is different from anyother type of law. I am certain that they need to talk ask, vent yada yada, wonder woman, and I mean, what a wonder she is, I am sure won't support it, or deny that they need it.
Read the books though, its rocking their world.

Thanks Alena for the location fo the book.

July 26, 2001
8:10 pm
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Alena
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Molly, in California would the Court order counseling for the girls in a divorce, because of their age?

July 26, 2001
10:23 pm
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ranmar1
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I think the only time the courts would order counseling is if an evaluation is needed to determine if she is an unfit mother or other abuses here in California. Other than that, the courts could care less. Heck, here in Calif. she could be boinking Earl every night if she wanted to, and the courts would still say it is irrelevant, since it's a No Fault divorce state. I need some advice. I have written a letter to her parents, since we are all fairly close, to explain what happened from my perspective, including all of her antics, Earl, etc.. I wrote it in such a way as to not try and make them come down on her, but to understand the truth from my perspective, as to what happened. I feel they are owed that from me. I have not mailed it yet, and won't until we have physically separated. There is nothing derogatory, just stated facts of events. Anyone have any problem with this? My Narcisstic soon to be x is in la la land. She called to check in after her meeting with her counselor today, and said her counselor told her, Congratulations, you have grown up into an adult." What the hell is this all about? I know, I shouldn't really even care at this point. I do need to break all the habits I have about being an enabler and co-dependent. I need to get my own life back, with my original set of values, morals and standards. I just don't think I can begin this until she is physically away from me. Here in Orange County, California, things are so superficial, that you just don't know what is real anymore, and who you can trust. I think my soon to be x is so caught up in the fantasy world here that nothing makes sense except how she rationalizes things away. I need to distance myself from her world. I've been caught up in it too long. You know how long I've struggled with this if you have followed my saga from January.

July 26, 2001
10:38 pm
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Alena
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Yes, I know Randy and I can imagine you are sick of it, and still full of pain.

It's hard to change habits, takes time. You'll find that you have to keep working at it ...but you will also feel the good from the changes.

I SO agree that you will feel better away from her bull*&^. I have felt it all along. Get away from her game playing life and get into a new life for you and the girls as soon as you can. You have to feel as if you're moving forward towards peace and happiness. You can't keep taking a daily emotional beating and expect to survive it. Go do something for yourself...are you doing anything to release all this?? Golf? Tennis? Running? Something to vent out all this emotional rage and hurt....disco dancing??? Just kidding....how about kickboxing?

I don't have a problem with that letter as long as you don't slam her, just be factual if you need to. You did have a relationship with these folks and I'm sure it's important to you that they know the truth. But don't slam her, they wont go for that and they may just dismiss everything you have to say if you do. It's a classy thing to do, if you word it correctly. Read it a few more times and then read it again before you send it.

July 26, 2001
10:44 pm
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ranmar1
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Alena, thank you. I've read this letter over and over. It is not a slamming one, but one that states what I thought was going on, how much I loved their daughter, how I worshipped her, and how I compromised myself in doing so. I do mention about Earl and how it all came about. I do mention about the trip to Florida, the rendevous in Palm Springs over spring break, the meetings while my daughter was at dance class. It is all factual, nothing that isn't truthful. I ended it by asking that they stand by her through all this emotional upheaval, and not condemn her in front of our girls. I stated that I hope she finds peace and happiness whether it be with Earl or whomever. I would be more than happy to fax this to anyone wanting to see it. I have no problem doing so. I think it is partially theraputic for me to put some closure on what happened between myself and her parents. My parents already know it all. Please let me know what you think......Randy (aka:Ranmar)

July 27, 2001
7:24 am
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Alena
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Randy, follow your heart and mind. You've been hurt and disillusioned, big time. So , it's easy to start doubting everyone, including yourself. YOu're an intelligent, independent guy, don't forget how far you've gotten in life and what you've accomplished. She is a big part of that, but she is only a PART of who you are. Keep the faith in you. I'm absolutely positive that if you read it and approve of it, it's okay. They are, after all, family.

You have a right to let your feelings known, like I said, you had a long relationship with these folks, I'm sure they love you and want the best for you too. And it's not over, you will still have a thing with them because of your daughters.

I hope you are getting out and finding a way to re-energize your self and your spirit. Please do something to feed that spirit, don't ignore it until it's screaming for attention by way of depression. Stay close with friends, not only daughters. Recognize "Randy", not just dad.

You'll be okay....really.

July 27, 2001
10:05 am
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Lydia
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Randy,

I've been following your posts for months and haven't responded for quite some time. I had also shared my conclusion, that my ex had strong narcissistic traits, with Molly and had visited the same web site. Overall, I felt my ex had an "Everyone owes me" attitude.

Here in Florida, we are also a no-fault state. Considering I was the primary breadwinner, I took certain actions to protect myself while we still lived under the same roof. Before any papers were filed, I canceled all joint accounts,stopped paying his bills, insurance, car payments etc. Also, I traded my car for a brand new one which reduced my equity and brought my payments over $700 month. I thought about anything to offset my cash flow. You might think about investing in an UGMA account for your girls and choosing one of your parents as the custodian. Once the gift is pledged, it can't be revoked under law.

You must be feeling such a loss, knowing what you once believed in no longer exists. I've been there! I often wondered how people could present themselves to be someone they never could be. Once I started disecting the layers, I realized there were symptoms all along that I was manipulated into supporting.

Fortunately, it's all behind me now, but in retrospect, the divorce was draining, as it consumed my every day.

I hope you find support in your friends and family. I encourage you to continue counseling. My "faith" pulled me through some rough times and I believe my prayers were answered as I now have much peace in my life.

Think things through and do what's best for YOU and your girls.

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