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Harryo good advice
December 15, 2003
9:04 am
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wireless
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Harryo, you said that if I make her feel like a women she would follow me to the end of the earth. Did you mean by letting her chase me?
I am the one who wrote " she cant fall in love I know she can." Your advice woke me up.

December 15, 2003
9:15 am
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HARRYO
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Wireless. Check this out
Who (or what) is a 'Yes Man'? He is a man who is too easy. Too agreeable. Too available! He creates no stimulating challenge, no thrill of the hunt. He appears to have no mind of his own .. she has to tell him what to do, where to go, and what time to be there! She quickly loses respect for a man that can't take charge and 'lead'.

Below is an excerpt taken from "Why Women Don't Date 'Nice Guys":

"These men have no life of their own. Although their intentions may be good, they quickly allow themselves to become absorbed by the women in their life, having no real identity of their own. This is unattractive, boring, and sufficating. Nice Guys appear meek because of this lack of leadership: women feel unsafe with this man. Her life lacks excitement and meaning. She feels burdened and pressured by his neediness. She feels as if she is the stronger one - the more 'masculine' one. He doesn't make her feel like a 'woman'!"
"These men are too eager to show affection. Too available. Who can appreciate that of which they didn't have to work for? (Yes Men) are easily used. Women quickly lose respect for a (Yes Man) because they are so 'exploited'. (Yes Men) truly think that they are making their girlfriends happy by sacrificing their own life, desires, wants, needs, opinions, and identities to that of their girlfriends. Yes, it's true, a woman may feel like no one will ever love her as much as the (Yes Man) does, but there is no thrill in just having..the thrill is in getting - in conquering - in winning over. The thrill of the chase, the desire to win his heart when he is so determined to not give it away, the impelling tension of being the one to 'conquer' and 'tame' the (Bad Boy) is intriguing to a woman - it makes her feel 'alive'."

The thing that many men aren't aware of (and many women aren't even conscious of doing) is that almost all women give the men they date 'The Test'. What is 'The Test'? It is a test that women use to rate your 'manliness'. Sucks, huh? Yet the women still do it, and many are not even aware that they are giving The Test! The Test is sort of like a game of "power play". As I have stated, most women will deny doing this - they are not even aware that they are doing this test - yet, indeed they are! The Test is a situation (usually created by the woman) to see who is going to 'control' the relationship. Most women (either consciously, or subconsciously) want someone that will stand up to them and take control. LEAD. You may call it her instinctive search for a Knight in Shining Armor. She wants a strong man that will make her feel safe, secure, protected, and totally feminine and ladylike. She wants a man that has enough self-respect, dignity, and self-assurance to take charge and lead with confidence, authority and power. She wants YOU to be the man ... . this makes her feel more like a woman.

Now, don't confuse manliness with selfish aggressiveness and apathy! I'm not saying that women want assholes! Women just want a man that is a man - because that is how she gets in touch with her feminine side... that is what makes her feel like a woman. And if you make her feel like a woman she will follow you to the ends of the Earth!

Codependency and Love Addiction...

Codependency:
A behavior or state of mind that prevents you from living an autonomous life due to a compulsion to take care of, control or please the people and situations around you.
Relationship Addiction:
A Relationship or Love addict is someone who is dependent, enmeshed and compulsively focused on another person.

December 15, 2003
10:35 am
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Harryo,
Wow, that is what I needed. I will do the besr I can to live my life for me! I will focus on me and let what ever happens happen. How do you know so much about people, etc. I dont think this relationship is going to end any time soon. This is just something I had to learn. Thank You for that information. I am getting away from codependancy and love addiction, because I want to live a content life. I know that only I can do it. It just helps to hear that I am not alone and that others have been thier as well, that thier is hope. Wish me luck. I am going to go live today the best I can. It is possible to overcome this, you sound like you have. What are some things you have done to better yourself? Harryo, if I never ever meet you in this life, it is probably because i already know you!

December 15, 2003
11:26 am
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Wireless,Listen the reason I know
about hese things is because I have to. Do I still have the same pain as
you? Absolutely! Do I still
think about her? Way too much.
But, you know what? I don't
want to make the same mistakes
over and over. That is why I constantly seek information. Relationships are the hardest things
that human beings have to deal
with. Especially to codependents
like us. I'm good at talking
about all the right things to do,
but living them is another story.
I truly believe that if I think
about the right things, and
do the work that the next time
I get a shot at a healthy loving
relationship I'll come back
HIGHER than the lows I am feeling
now from the pain of not having her.
SHE is not you higher power nor
does she want to be. Letting go
is the hardest part, but the first
step toward healing. Pray for me
I'll pray for you. I HURT TOO!

December 15, 2003
3:56 pm
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God, I pray that you will give stregnth to Harryo and help guide him to live the most happy life possible. Amen........

December 15, 2003
10:02 pm
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deehmah
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Hi Guys - sorry to butt in but I thought this might be the perfect opportunity to get a 'male perspective' on some issues. Harry, I so understand this 'testing' issue. But I wonder if it's not both a male and female issue. Myself, I know that I do things to see how the person that I'm involved with will react and respond. And I know that it's more to find out my worth in the other persons eyes. How much do you really care for me, how far will you go for me. I don't leave if they 'fail' my tests, but I am disappointed and start to question my own self worth and value. How sad and how co-dependent. But what I wonder is how do you ever differentiate between what you do as a co-dependent versus what is actually healthy. How do I know when my requests and demands are reasonable and normal, or just my own insecurities working in overdrive? Example: I was with a man for about 5 months. In that time, we spent every weekend together. At my house. We went away for a week together. To my summer 'shack'. After about a month, I brought up why he never took me to his home. He said that it was a mess. Over the next few months, I casually mentioned this several more times. Each time letting him know a little more that it really bothered me that he wouldn't take me to his home. Each time he said he would resolve this. Finally, after 5 months, in a moment of frustration, I told him that I was beginning to think he had something to hide and losing trust in him. He said I assaulted his character and I never heard from him again. Now this man had been talking of marriage and moving in with me. He also said that he felt I brought previous relationships into the one we had and I was mad because I didn't get what I wanted, when I wanted it. My question, was I unreasonable? I don't think that I was, but being co-dependent - I just don't know. And it took months for me to stop questioning myself and beating myself up. I know that I am a giving and caring person. But I also know that a lot of my giving and caring is self-serving - to feel needed and wanted. I just don't know how to figure out what is healthy and normal and what isn't. I don't know when I'm being selfish by saying 'no' and when I'm standing up for myself. Can you guys help?

December 15, 2003
11:08 pm
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deehma, wow! I will wreite back when I get a chance.. that was a good point.

December 16, 2003
4:27 am
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Zinnie
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Hi Guys,

Sorry to bust in on the man topic here... insomnia again, I think the hsft flip-flops are getting to me.

But... deehmah, sounds to me like he was hiding something. What? I don't know. Best case scenario, he was a real slob and didn't want you to see the bugs walking through the house. Or he might have been living with furniture like my first apartment - "Early American College Student" a whole style of decor there. Or, worst case scenario - he had a girl friend or wife there. Quell Horror - yes, that happens too.

Sometimes, I think we get caught up in over analyzing things. Make sense? Not everything is done for a reason of underlying tests. Some times things just happen. I have found, at least for me - that honesty is the best policy. Within reason, I don't want to blurt out something to my husband that I know will purposely hurting his feelings, but I'm also honest with her and vice versa about how we are feeling about what is going on in our lives.

Personally, if I was with some one and we were talking marriage, long term plans and spending weekends and even a week together yet he would not have me over to his house, I would definitely wonder. And, wonder I think because warning bells would be going off - because if you spend that amount of time with a person and are discussing life altering changes then you have the right to know what that person's life consists of.

If you don't have an inkling, then you can end up in a situation like what "Vegas" is going through, or if you read her thread, like what a very close friend of mine went through.

Love to all,

Zinnie

December 16, 2003
4:58 am
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deehmah
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Zinnie, thanks so much for the confirmation. But see, that's the problem. Why do I need confirmation? Why don't I know that I have a right to question - to get answers, basically to just be treated fairly. And why do I doubt myself so when I try to stand up for myself? Yes, I guess I do try to over analyze and that makes the waters very muddy. As for your worst case scenario with my ex, I know for a fact that he wasn't married and didn't live with anyone. But another girlfriend? That I don't know. Thanks again. Oh, and sorry guys for messing up your thread! But actually, I think this is all relevant.

Dee

December 16, 2003
9:16 am
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HARRYO
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Dee I know what you mean about confirmation. In fact looking
for outside validation is a
fundamentally flawed approach of
all codependents. I know how much
that you hurt by not having this
man in your life. You feel that
you need him to make you complete
or whole. You did the right thing
seeking honesty. That has got to
be the cornerstone of any relationship. Don't see it that you tested him. See it that you were
taking a healthy sane approach to
a relationship that meant
a lot to you. I don't know if
I speak for you or Wireless, but
the mistake that I made was that
the relationship was EVERYTHING to
me. I have to quit beaqting myself
up and see that mistake as a lesson
and move on to the next test.

December 16, 2003
9:39 am
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wireless
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Harryo, nicely said. i myself was believing that this relationship was everything to me. I am doing my best to live for me and not react to her manipulations also th excerpt that you wrote was very helpful. I was letting people abuse me because I just did. I abused myself for not letting go of what i knew. I abused me for letting them abuse me. All i had to do was walk away or at best dont react. Harryo one more thing...We are doing better now. I just stopped reacting to her manipulations. And I also am living my life for me. It really is working. Thanks

December 16, 2003
9:43 am
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One more thing people, I am in control of me now, not anybody else! I will not let anybody make me feel bad, it is my descision to chose how to react to the choices they make. i will do my best to live my lifer for me and not let anybodies choices affect my happines.

December 16, 2003
11:12 am
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HARRYO
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Wireless, How do you know that she
is manipulating you? Maybe her
feelings for you just changed. That's
what happened with me. Because she
is EVERYTHING to you, doesn't mean
that you are EVERYTHING to her.
It was your choice to give her
all that power over you. It's your
choice to have an aura of pain
and heartache(her words to me).
I'm glad you are starting to see
it. Be patient. Be honest with
yourself. Do the work. Heal!!

December 16, 2003
1:30 pm
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December 16, 2003
8:53 pm
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Harryo-How do you not give someone you have strong feelings about that amount of power? I feel at the mercy of my feelings for other people.

December 16, 2003
10:31 pm
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hmmmmmmmmmmm

December 17, 2003
4:09 am
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Harry - thanks so much for the validation/confirmation/reassurance. But you know, I pray that some day soon I won't need that. That I will know in my mind and my heart that I am not wrong and will stop questioning and analyzing my every thought. It is very tiring. I have to say though, that I have finally gotten past the point of a relationship (man) being everything for me. Unfortunately, my co-dependency still leads me to make wrong/poor choices. The man I was talking about, I knew he was wrong for me from the beginning but I still suffer from the Florence Nigtingale syndrome. The epitomy of co-dependence - let me fix you, help you, make you better. I am so attracted to suffering souls. I always see 'the potential' in someone - when I really need to see exactly what it is in front of my face. A little history - I was adopted at about 1 year old. My adoptive mother was cold, withdrawn, judgmental and punitive. My adoptive father was removed and an alcoholic. It was a very middle class family so I was supposed to be grateful but there was no love, no warmth, no emotional stroking. Everything was about appearnces to the neighbors. If my mother was upset with me, she stopped talking to me. For weeks. I was very shy and bashful and my mother encouraged this. She was jealous of anyone in my life and drove away any friends. Discouraged all relationships, even with family. She used me as a sounding board for her complaints against my father who I saw as very weak for not standing up to her and who I resented for not saving me from her. I grew up with serious issues on rejection and believed if I made anyone mad - they would leave me. My feelings never mattered and I was made to feel that I was selfish if I thought about myself. For many years, I looked for love in a man to rescue me. A relationship became my everything, as you have described. I don't know how, but when I reached my forties, after years of self analyzing and introspection, I decided that I needed/wanted to change. I don't know if you've read any of my other threads but I made a conscious effort to develop interests and I have to say that now I have a very full life. I ride a motorcycle, I shoot competitively, I do photography, have rehabbed a cottage on my own, learned to shoot pool, and plan on learning to sail next year. But still, I can't seem to get this relationship thing right. I hook up with the wrong people wanting to fix,help. I'm afraid to speak up because they might leave (big rejection issue here) and when I finally can't take any more, I explode. I know you said I didn't test when I asked about seeing his home, but I do test in other ways. As I said, it's not to test his manhood, but to see what my value is in his eyes. I think that's very manipulative. But, I will continue to work on this until I get it right. As far as what you said about not making a woman your everything and the challenge, etc., for some women that may be true. But for myself, I find a man that makes me his everything, with no outside life or interests, too suffocating. Too much responsibility for me. I want to be important, but I need a happy medium. Am I looking for too much?

December 17, 2003
7:38 am
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Until my divorce 4 years ago,
I never worried about relationship
problems. I guess that's why we
stayed together for 20 years. I
think for the longest time I
was EVERYTHING to her so it was
easy for me to detach myself emotioanlly from her. When she moved
on and found a relationship before
me I became for the first time
jealous. Not that I would never have
her again, but because she FOUND
someone and I hadn't.
My last relationship, I vowed that
I wouldn't make the same mistakes.
I went overboard on the romantic
side, I smothered her with kidness
and affection, and it worked
great for a short time. I thought
when it came to those thing that there was no such thing as overkill.
In my life I have been addicted
to tobacco, abused alcohol and
just about every drug known, but
I have never felt the euphoria that
I felt by loving this woman. I'm
sure that I smothered her and drove
her away. This is a hard lesson
that I learned. I'm sure had I
been doing the right things
necessary for my recovery like I
am doing now that I would still
be with her. Thanks to everyone
for their good advice.

December 17, 2003
9:51 am
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Harryo, you will be OK.

December 17, 2003
5:07 pm
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December 17, 2003
10:29 pm
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Harryo, I dont think I mentioned this to you, but my girlfriend said she liked the asshole in me. Sounds kinda wierd. I was never an asshole I was just joking around one day about her southern accent.

December 26, 2003
1:37 pm
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December 26, 2003
5:17 pm
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HARRYO
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Wireless, How was your Christmas?
Does your love still hurt? Hope
taht you are in a happy place.

December 27, 2003
3:27 pm
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Harryo I had learned alot in the past month about life and relationships. Thank You for your time and every body else. I had realized it was my reaction to peoples problems that was controlling my life. I always thought it was me. People have issues I cant control, I just have to remember that I have to care about me. It is hard at times, but if I remember what I learned from you and others I will be OK, we are all in this together. I am not as bad as I was. I have accepted that I will take it a day at a time and just enjoy the moment. Most importantly though I have to remember this is my life and how I feel matters. I cant let other peoples reactions or abuse get to me. I will be OK. I tried what that exerpt said about the nice guy. I just went on to live my life and did my own thing and left her alone. I have never seen a more loving beautiful girl in my life. Thank You, I hope you had a great Christmas !

December 29, 2003
1:50 pm
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