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God answering prayers
January 11, 2001
10:42 am
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egg
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Tez What were you wanting?

January 11, 2001
3:54 pm
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egg.

I was looking for answers to the human condition that were not contradictory and irrational.

January 13, 2001
4:33 pm
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lewis
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But all this searching, 4 what?
I neither disbelief or beleif. I give many religious people the chance to talk freely of their belief. However, I find them less challenging when I challenge religion.More often, religious individuals carry with them an 'all knowing attitude' which slightly annoys myself.
If jesus christ comes to earth again, Egg, I fear we will only crucify him once again!
Finally, religion is full of hidden agendas & I do beleive that if God truely exists he would think we are far from ready for a second coming.

Tez
u have searched? What did u find. I think i'd have become confused with the choice & taken a break.
However, the journeys are 4 a reason, if not to find the ulimate truth, u must have find out something about yourself?

I have to go because my head is full tonight!

see you

January 13, 2001
6:12 pm
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Lewis.

You asked, "Tez u have searched? What did u find."

My many meeetings with high and low level members of many faiths has shown me that, when sensitively questioned about their beliefs at depth, they all without exception ultimately feel threatened and change the line of questioning. This tells me that deep down they are unsure of what they really believe. They are using their religion as some sort of a self preserving 'life boat'.

I have concluded that this is because they have not thought through and questioned their own beliefs themselves. When I start to question them, I tend to expose flaws in their 'professed beliefs' that threaten the validity of their beliefs. This frightens them and brings agression out of them.

Thus I have concluded that whatever I choose to believe, it must be well challenged and thought through by myself. I have lost faith in the 'gurus' of all religions. I am my own 'guru' now, but not anyone elses. šŸ™‚

What I have done is to start with an initial premise, assume that this premise is true, and to go from there. I have tried to challenge each conclusion drawn all the way down each branching root of the tree of my belief structure to ensure coherence. This is what I have done and what I would recommend that others do - if asked of course. šŸ™‚

And you said, "However, the journeys are 4 a reason, if not to find the ulimate truth, u must have find out something about yourself?"

Yes... I am on an ongoing journey of self discovery. A part of that has been to discover many totally illogical and conflicting beliefs that have, in the past, caused much psychological pain and suffering. It's an ongoing process that might terminate at death, I suspect.

I have found that the "reason", that you mention, is all about experiencing the journey; a journey in which the destination is yet another experience.

Owing to the general nature of your questions, my answers have tended to follow in that vein.

January 13, 2001
10:12 pm
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HI Tez and all,

As you know, I'm a Christian but I have to say that Tez' beliefs don't contradict my beliefs at all. They actually add to and explain some things in a linear sort of way. I'm a much more scattered thinker releying on feelings so I appreciate him putting things in another perspective. God is a part of all of us and has given us each gifts to use. It is up to us to discover them and put them to good use.

January 14, 2001
10:52 am
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lewis...I read yours. I couldn't agree with you more. I think the "higher power" is in ourselves but we just don't know how to utilize it because of all the daily stress, negativity and sometimes "heartbreak" (don't let me go there right now) that we lose our sense of power & strength. I've seen many mind over matter situations and that is just proof that we are capable of becoming a higher power ourselves. I know that sounds like Discovery channel stuff. And also notice how they try not to come right out and say that religion is man made. And if you think about it...GOD and religion has caused the most horrifying tortures, wars and cruel behavior among humans in the history of the world. So before you pray and wait for answers..MEDITATE and pray TO YOU and the answers will come because YOU without knowing it, will have answered your own all by yourself and yes..without GOD. But that's just me and I hope I didn't piss anyone off here...just food for thought.

January 14, 2001
12:31 pm
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Wasn't there some new scriptures that were uncovered that were supposed to be closest to the actual words of Jesus... "The Kingdom of God is in you..." or something like that.

Perhaps it is not that we can each become a higher power, but that we have the higher power all through us, bonded molecularly to our living cells. Perhaps when creatures die, it is that the god-force melts away and leaves us lifeless.

Perhaps meditation allows us to tap into that force that is already in us, and maybe also be sensitive to the force that is also present in living things around us? Thus through meditation we can simply become more receptive to the answers that are already there?

January 16, 2001
10:19 am
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I will not go into a philosophicaldiscussion on God. I will narra te an incident. It happened to me some twenty years ago. But the memory is still green in my mind.

My wife was pregnant. It was a long awaited conceivement. At that time we did not know whether doctors would permit a second pregnency for her. She had a rheumatoid heart. For some time doctors were unsure if she could bear a child at all.

At that time I was living in a remote place.For want of a better arrangement my wife was living with me. We used to go to a nearby city for periodic medical check up. We were returning by an evening train from one of those check ups.There was some delay enroute and the train arrived late at my appointed station.I had arranged for a transport,hopeful that it would be waiting for me we disembarked. The train soon proceeded on its journey.

To our chagrin there was no transport waiting for us. I knew the station master. I thought he would be of help and went to his office. I found a stranger there. he was not of much help.

It was midnight.

Some friends lived about half kilometre away. We decided to walk over and seek some help there.We reached there and found that no one was there and no transport or a place to stay was available.

It was 1.30 AM of a cold night. There hardly was any choice but to trek the rest of 3 kilometres to my residence.My obedient wife agreed with me and we began the trek with a luggage apiece in hand or head.

We were both young.I was not strong enough to defend myself or my wife if we were to be attacked by goons or animals.You cannot but think of God at such times.

We started our march. We must have travelled hardly a hundred metres and I heard some foot steps behind me.At first I dismissed it as a hallucination. But as the sound persisted, I summoned a lot of courage and snidely looked back trying my best not to get noticed by my wife. there indeed was a man walking behind us. It was reassuring that he was an old man. This gave a lot of peace. We walked the rest of the way without any fear, with the footsteps following close behind us.

As we appraoached our house the watchman rushed towards us to help us with our luggage.I handed oer the luggage and turned around to thank the old man.

There was no one !

Did God answer my prayers that night?
Did he answer my wife's prayers?

Uptil today my wife does not know that I was scared shit for a while that night.

January 16, 2001
12:22 pm
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I don't know about what Jesus said. BTW, his name wasn't Jesus, but Yashua. No "j" in Hebrew.

"The Kingdom of God is Within You" is a great book by Leo Tolstoy. An argument for Christianity not as a religion, but as a way of life. Somewhat like Buddhism.

an easy Meditation is focusing on the internal light within you.

I was discussing this issue, yet again, with my fiance. I remembered taking a lit class called "The Bible as literature" when I was in high school. In my further studies of theology in college, I find that many religion classes take a similar approach and study scriptures of various religions as allegory and metaphor. When you do this you discover that all scriptures contain the same essential ingredients: how to live in a peaceful society.

Jung differentiates between extrinsic and intrinsic religious drive. Extrinsic indicates psychiatric pathology, an individual foreclosed and no longer persuing higher knowledge. This is the landscape of religious fundamentalism in the U.S. The religious right goes against the teachings of Elohim (God) in the same way that amoral behavior does.

January 16, 2001
1:34 pm
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Jung was way ahead of his time, wonderful human being and Jeshua was basically a compassionate human being who had reached great spiritual growth in his short life, enough that he was able to manifest and heal.
He found it quite embarassing to be praised and adored for doing such things, as the "power" really came THROUGH him as opposed to FROM him. He always said the ability came from god, the creator, he was a co-creator with god, as we all are.
Blessings

January 16, 2001
4:11 pm
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lewis
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Tez:
U mention 'Religion as some sort of self presearving 'life boat'. Do we not to some degree, all do this? Find something to believe in, because it explains our mere existence, afterall, if there is nothing, then why bother to think or feel?
'Exposing flaws, in their professed beliefs' 'This frightens them & brings agression out of them': Fear of the unknown, fear that there is 'nothing', would this not breed anger? Afterall the searching, there is nothing! In a sense it is a cruel joke, and anger here I can understand to some degree.
'I am my own guru': Maybe we have to start within ourselves, a journey within, before we begin the journey within the world?

Gingerleigh:
'The Kingdom Of God Is Within You'
'Not within the bricks & morta of a church. Within you, all of you.' - Some thing like that - Within ourselves, maybe searching externally is what we should do after we have searched internally 4 God, something similar to, 'u have to love yourself, before u can love others'?(As above).

MSG:
A beautiful story, who do u think he was? A guide, An Angel? Did it make u believe more?

I've been 'pondering' on the concept of 'nothing' & 'God. If there is a'nothing' do u not feel fear? Can u beleive that Earth with its magnificent life force is 4 nothing? Accept 4 the species to survive, & why would that be? If there was nothing?

The trees, the birds, the sunset:- just 4 display?
Somebody once said to me,'We have complicated everything. God did not intend us to be confused, it is ourselves that created doubt & confusion.'

Religion has suffered since science has manifested into a huge success. For it is science with it's 'so called' facts that detroys religion & God, there is no logical explanation for jesus, except being historically considered a man before his time?

Basically, I cannot adapt a scientific reasoning with religion, unless of course I intend to ruin it. Personally I feel the world would be dull place without some mystism & paranormal stories.

Happy Searching.

January 16, 2001
5:14 pm
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I don't know Lewis, I tend to think that Science and Religion can live happily side-by-side. And here I go with some more "I heard once that...", but a friend of mine was a math/physics PhD at a prestigious university in the East. He would try to explain the mathematical laws of mundane things such as timing traffic lights in cities (did you know it's possible only to get them timed in two directions, not 4? East/West, or North/South --- pick your poison.)

But I digress. Anyway, my friend was talking about how there are certain theories in science that are really two functions, not one. For instance, a formula holds up perfectly until conditions reach a certain threshold, and at that point, a new formula has to be used. Otherwise, the predicted results start to differ more and more from the actual results. For instance, Formula X+Y=Z is true only at temperatures up to 50 degrees. At 51 degrees, the formula is off by 1. At 54 degrees, it's off by 10... you get the picture. BUT, at temperatures over 50 degrees, the NEW formula X-Y=Z works perfectly, but when used at 49 degrees, the results are off by 1, and at 45 degrees, off by 20.

So the tie-in here is that perhaps Science provides the first function, that first formula that works perfectly... X+Y = SCIENCE. When conditions hit a certain point, you need to use the second formula... and that second formula is X-Y = GOD.

Hm, not sure if I buy into it either, but it made my brain hurt for a little while to think about it.

Peace.

January 17, 2001
1:26 am
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science has now come right up into the face of god, i.e the "string theory" would be a great example, AND this entire world is filled with magic , mysticism and miracles. When you cut yourself and you heal, is that not a miracle? When you set a goal and achieve it despite great odds, is that not a miracle?
When people on here have been suffering for years and they suddenly find enlightenment and true healing, is that not a miracle?
Believe and know miracles exist and your life will be filled with them.

January 17, 2001
10:17 am
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I think when discussing science and rligion you are really discussing ontic vs. ontologcal.

We discussed this in my humanistic psych class.

Ontic is the surface essence of something. Table = table, chair = chair.

Ontological is the soul, the essence of something. Indescribeable, illogical. You pick a leaf and see the chaotic twists and turns of viens, you see green breath, life, the global breathing cycle. read Gaia's Body - very cool book.

So - how dare we be sane in an insane world? We live in an ontic society. Psychotics, schizophrenics, they live in an ontological world with varying levels of meaning. Psychology, at it's therapeutic essence, is ontological. You can MAKE it ontic by forging definitions, restrictions, theory. But theory is theory and remains such.

You can try to prove the concept of divinity, which is at its essence ontological, with the ontic tools of science. That doesn't mean it will make sense. Mostly it won't. It's apples and oranges.

January 17, 2001
3:37 pm
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Lewis.

You said, "U mention 'Religion as some sort of self presearving 'life boat'. Do we not to some degree, all do this? " Yes, most probably do - the challenge to our intelects is to rise above this; to rise above our animalistic emotion of fear and to think clearly, rationally and logically.

January 17, 2001
3:49 pm
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Tez, contrary to your opinioin, we are not all operating out of some animalistic need to self preserve, some of us are operating at a more evolved stage. You are perhaps being rather subjective in some of your hypothesis.
Cici, psychology in the past and even mostly today is no where near addressing the entire human, it mainly addresses the brain as an organic "object" that becomes chemically imbalanced at times and needs adjusting. No real in depth analysis goes into the reasons WHY this is so, many see this as the cause of mental illness when in fact the brain can become chemically imbalanced as a result of some long withstanding depression, fear, trauma etc..it is mostly a symptom.
What about addressing the underlying issues: Why do we fear, depress, anger..???
A new psychology is coming about, spiritual psychology, which takes into account the very powerful and REAL needs of the soul as the real steerer of the whole ship.
Also psychoimmunology, the mind/body connection is now seen as the REAL DEAL, our minds are not seperate and we are now finding that the mind is not located in the grey matter, but throughout our entire physical cells, emotional bodies and last but FIRST our spirit...:)

January 18, 2001
2:36 pm
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Cici
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Brenda,

It depends on what your school of thought is. Behavioral psychology says that we are merely organsims responding to stimuli, either external or emotional.

Cognitive psychology studies the functioning of the brain, with an off-shoot called rogerian talk therapy, which is supposed to determinehow yourbrains works in its twisted ways to make you feel unhappy.

Humanistic psychology, much maligned in the effort to prove psychology is a "hard" science with an underlying and unifying philosophy, focuses on self, identity and how identity is formed and interacts with the world.

Unfortunately, any grad school will either be cognitive or behavioral, and never the twain shall meet. I've been searching for grad schools and have come up with a list of about 20 in the entire country that provide a good solid grad school education in humanistic psychology.

That's why most therapists and psychologist and psychiatrists are hell bent on staying on teh hard science tract.

January 18, 2001
5:01 pm
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The hard science tract started out in the eighteen hundreds with doctors studying cadavers to learn about the workings of the human body. A cadaver is void of spirit which means they are only looking at one area of what makes us human.
Science is coming to the realization that studying only that that is visible and logical is just plain ignorant. Scientists were not taken seriously if they looked at life and people as more than "biological organisms" there is the untangible which is becoming very tangible nowadays, have you ever heard of the chi machine, developed by a chinese herbalism and traditional m.d It actually measures the chi output of individuals to help with diagnosis. Chi gung masters were shown to be able to cultivate a much higher level through meditation and their chi gung healing work etc.
anyways, i digress, but if you want to learn the real deal, combine the "trad western approach" ( good for surgery and trauma ) with the ancient chinese/eastern teachings.
Also read Scott Peck spiritual psycholgist..gotta go.

January 18, 2001
7:22 pm
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Brenda,
I thought the primary goal for all was self preservation. Not that I can't be wrong šŸ™‚ Brain strain here but isn't it Maslov's pyramid that shows how we behave. Gotta have food, shelter, and primary needs met even before we can reproduce which is I guess the secondary goal?
And re: church and science, what about the church of religious science????? Even my studies of ancient religions, have a great deal of science in them. The Mason's an ancient organization states that the G in God, is for geometry? I'm of course not a mason, so the translation could be loose here. Just my 2 cents

January 18, 2001
8:40 pm
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Brenda..please keep this in mind. If it wasn't for these scientists that you have labeled ignorant because they are not completely sold on the "spiritual" side of things, have advanced our knowledge incredibly into what we now know is..modern medicine. We would still be paralyzed by organisms till this day. Thus adding to Molly's comment to self preservation. However..there's the continued arguement of spirit vs science. For example..we cannot see or touch love in some kind of physical form...but we feel it inside. ALL OF US have. So it exists in that manner. I'm wondering if that was a poor example but it all goes back to what scientists use (their 5 senses) to conduct their research, however..there is always that 6th sense that has been talked about but is still unknown today. That is where spiritualism lies. There's my 2 cents.

January 19, 2001
1:45 pm
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Cici
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Well, psychologists like Abraham Maslow, and philosophers like Kierkegaard struggled with this conundrum.

On the one hand you have to have a unifying philosophy for any area of study, from statistics to chemistry to sociology. But psychology lacks a unifying philosophy and is instead splintered into these various sub-groups. Cognitivists and Behaviorists tend to look down on unanswerable concepts, like that of the soul or the human persuit of identity-formation.

They like to look at black and white because that is analyzeable, you can put it into a graph, or make tables and present esoteric papers that no one but you and your 100 collegues in the world can understand. I myself take exception to cognitive research, which has reached a point of being almost un-applyable in the therapeutic setting.

Granted, it's nice to know that a pessimist will be more judgemental when given an alpha-numeric series of characters to memorize, but how can we apply that other than saying, "Remeber to attend to this task with your full attention"?

But I also have to mention that science has been great in terms of medicine. Developing anti-psychotic drugs for schizophrenia and all it's schizoid sub-types is necessary to aid the patient in returning to society. You can't treat these individuals with talk therapy, that's for sure. So...I think it's like yin and yang. You can't have ontic without ontological, and vice versa.

January 20, 2001
7:57 am
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Yeah...I think....

Anyone seen any of the studies done on prayer....some actual "blind studies" were done.

Groups of "boran again Christians" were asked to prayer for people in hospital. No names, no problems. etc.

Dr's found unexplainable improvements in the "prayed for" group. More and more physicians are admitting that spirituality does improve things..

Even the Bible says "a merry heart doeth good like medicine"

PLUS I personally thing the world would be boring without some unexplainable stuff.

January 20, 2001
5:29 pm
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Janes.

I don't think we have even scraped the surface of discovering the power of the mind.

I think that mental telepathy is a real phenomenom. Dying sons contact their mothers at precisely the time of their deaths. Australian Aborigine Jadika men (shaman) can send messages to tribe members by mental telepathy.

The mind can cure cancer and on occasion spontaneous remissions have staggered doctors.

Combining the power of the mind to heal its own body and the fact of mental telepathy, its possible that the recovery sunsequent to all that praying has nothing to do with the religion and/or the god supposedly at the helm of that religion. It may well be that concentrating mind power(will) from many minds has a powerful effect over the immune system of the sick person. This would explain the many so called miracles of Fatima, Lourdes and elsewhere in the world.

We just don't know. We try, as in times of old, to attribute supernatural causes to misunderstood phenomena.

February 6, 2001
7:07 am
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I go back to the first item in this thread.

It reminds me of a story.

There was a monk and an ordinary woman. Once God appeared in front of them. He gave priority to the woman over the monk. The monk protested to God,said that it is unfair,said that he prayed to him always whereas the woman prayed only once in a while if at all.

Well, said God,take this bowl of milk,walk around this building and come back to me without spilling a drop, and preset the monkwith bowl full to the brim with milk.when the monk came back He asked the monk as to how many times the monk thought of Him.The monk replied that he was busy watching the milk did not spill.

So, said God to the monk, I gave priority to the woman because she prayed to me in spite of her preoccupation and disappeared.

The monk had the realisation of his life.

February 6, 2001
5:18 pm
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A Zen buddhist monk came to a bridge across a river. As he crossed the bridge he had the realisation that it was the bridge that was flowing, not the river.

The monk had the realisation of his life.

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