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Gingerleigh, You have been missed...
October 4, 2004
4:58 pm
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Zinnie
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SFB,

Please reconsider doing your in-vitro until you have ALL of these issues worked out.

Here if you want to talk.

Hi Ginger...

Z.

October 4, 2004
6:59 pm
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gingerleigh
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Hiya Zin!

SFB, I don't know jack squat about being married. As far as I can tell, I really suck at it, but we won't know for sure for a while yet. *laugh*

Tell me about your husband... what do you love about him? Can you recreate a very special moment with him, one that makes up for another moment where he walks away from you when you cry? I'm not putting him down... seriously... Here, I'll go first.

Bad moment: my husband got really angry with me when I was on the phone with my family and they upset me and I wouldn't stand up to them. I really felt like I had nowhere to seek solace, since I couldn't please my family and I couldn't please my husband either.

Good moment which makes up for bad moment: that evening, my husband went into the kitchen, asked me if I wanted some tea as well, and brought me out my tea and a piece of dark chocolate because he knew I'd had a rough day.

Could it be as simple as living with someone for a while and starting to take each other for granted? 7-year itch?

You say that you love your husband... can you articulate your feelings? Sometimes it's really nice to do that.

October 5, 2004
4:52 pm
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sixfootblonde
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Zinnie,

Nothing is ever as easy as it seems on the other side. Trust me, I've thought and thought. For many reasons that are intensely personal, this IVF may quite likely center me on something better and greater than anything I could ever be. I can't articulate the infertility thing very well; suffice it to say that sometimes I wonder if I am so unsettled, so desperate to find something because of the void in my life, my marriage, where by 8 years of said marriage most people have a child etc and the dynamic is something that it isn't with us. The years, the struggle, the desperation, the hollow inside, the lost sense of what a fulfilled woman/MOTHER feels like, the distance between us ... all things quite personal and hard to verbalize. I struggled all day to not feel offended by your words; even while the rational me recognized them as well-meaning, the hurt me who aches to be a mother reacted initially from the gut.

Does any of this make sense? You don't have your own children either so you probably understand some of the things I am saying.

?

October 6, 2004
6:19 am
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Zinnie
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HI SFB,

I guess we see the same coin from two different sides.

For whatever reason, God/nature decided I was not to have my "own" children. For a while I was angry? I guess that was the emotion, then disappointed somewhat that it seemed like each month that "visitor" showed up like clockwork. I heard something once, and repeated it to my husband, it was "who is man to decide over what God has deemed?" It was in respect to the artificial ways of conception.

When I told my husband that, the scientist in him took over the attorney nature of his brain and off he went, yet he shocked me by saying that we as people are playing with fire. I thought for sure he would be inclinded to "go with science" yet he was not, and he had so many reasons. When he and I talked about those reasons, it just solidified MY belief that if it did not happen naturally for me than it simply for whatever reason was not meant to be.

There was only really one time that I think I ever had the feeling of "this is not fair" and that was actually the night before my hysterectomy. I had been fighting this battle for a long time. Many surgeries, many rounds of treatment to no avail, this was my last pit stop. Anyway, so the night before we were watching Dateline and there was a woman on there who had eight children, and was pregnant with a ninth, all the kids had different fathers, had all been born addicted to one thing or another and she had only regained custody of them within the last two months. Here she was on camera, and she was horrible with them! I looked at my husband and asked him "HOW IS THAT FAIR? I only want one of my own."

For so many in our (yours and mine) predicament money is a huge factor. In my case is was not, mine was a personal decision whether or not I wanted to go through with it. At the end of the day, I finally decided that I had gone through so much after four years. The Dr.'s visits, the surgeries, the treatments, the ER room visits - remember, I have a nasty habit of rupturing cysts and tumors... the tests, etc., and that was with Dr.'s that I actually have come to really love because of all they have done for me. All of that has been humiliating enough. To take having a baby, something that is supposed to be one of the most natural things in the world and have it become yet "another medical procedure" quite frankly might have been my final undoing.

Now, SFB, this that I have posted is all about ME, and MY reasons why I did not go with fertility treatments and options. Another thought that crossed my mind was if I had done whatever was necessary to have a baby, and still succumbed to the cancer, where would that leave my child? I would have a child, but would the child have a mother?

Now, what I'm getting from what your post is saying is that you are feeling this huge void in your life. Sadly, a child is not going to fix that. You have to fix that yourself. You have to decide whether or not you want to permanently fix your marriage or do you really need to move on? Having a baby always sounds like a good idea, but it is not going to "fix" anything, in fact it will tax things more than they are now.

Decide what it is you really really want? If you have been married for eight years, and yet still went outside the marriage as we have talked about before, and you are still feeling this discontent, and feeling this void. Still having those empty feelings in your marriage, I encourage you to explore that first and foremost and come to a final resolution. Do you really and I mean really want to stay married to this man? I know you say he is a great guy, and in all honesty, I'm sure he is, but if you are that unhappy - maybe he is not the "right" great guy for you. That happens sadly, we all know it does.

But, re-read your post above objectively. You are hoping for a baby to "fix" everything that is wrong that you are feeling. We cannot expect/depend on others SFB to fix what we are feeling; yet, so many of us do that. We want our spouses, parents, lovers, friends and our children to fix the problem. But, the answer lies within us and us alone - no one else.

I'm not saying that you are wrong for wanting a child, or even wrong for being willing to do in-vitro, that is YOUR choice, and thankfully we live in a country where we have that choice. I'm just saying, think about it, really think about it. If you are thinking that a baby is going to fix all the feelings of lonliness you are feeling now, it won't. Babies, do give love - but, they are also a constant source of needing love, care, devotion, etc.

Don't think I don't feel some of the same pangs you do. Two of my very best friends in the world - same exact age as me... 40, going on 41 just had babies. I have to admit there was that familiar twinge at getting the birth announcements. Then again, when I feel like that I go to Walmart of Target on a Saturday and listen to the screaming and think "THANK GOD IT'S NOT ME!" - all joking aside, sure I feel left out sometimes, but I have accepted my fate and I think about it, and move on with my life.

That is why I was saying, you really need to think about it and really ponder hard "is this marriage going to last a lifetime? And... if it isn't do I want to put a child through the ups and downs of divorce, single life, dating and a possible step-parent?"

Again, no child is going to "fix" the situation - only YOU can do that.

Z.

October 6, 2004
10:28 am
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sixfootblonde
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Dear Z,

I have read your post twice, carefully. I see some points where I understand exactly what you are saying. I also see a few where we are on different pages. But that's ok. What it comes to for me on this subject is that it is too raw, too painful and too personal for me. I guess I come to this site to discuss my issues and I understand that everyone won't agree with me, and that sometimes feedback will hurt. In all honesty though I don't come here for infertility feedback. There is another site I go to for that, where people hurt and people are in the middle of things I have gone thru and am poised to go thru. It's a very personal decision, yes, to choose to do something "artificial" to have a child. I am not inclined to explain why we have chosen that route, as I feel that is our choice as a couple and I will not defend it or whatever.

Basically, this subject is too sore, too emotional and I don't feel it will be beneficial to discuss it at this time. Especially because we are at opposite points in our lives, with different perspectives and whole aspects of ourselves that do not show up two-dimensionally on this screen. I truly respect your opinions but I am agreeing to disagree with you, because this subject is way too personal to me.

I hope you understand. Thank you for your input, Zinnie. If I were stronger on this subject I would explain and discuss it all with you but the plain truth is, I'm not.

No hard feelings, no anything like that on my part. I promise. Thanks for understanding, as I hope you will.

October 6, 2004
10:41 am
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Zinnie
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HI SFB,

Like I said in my previous post, what I wrote about was ME. The only thing I beg you to do, please for the sake of the child... don't expect that baby to "fix" you or your marriage - it is not fair to an innocent baby. We are the only ones that can "fix" what is missing in our lives.

That was the point I was trying to make most of all.

Things will work out for you, trust me they will. They might not be what you are wanting them to be... heck, I wanted six of my own, but, I found that in obtaining my own happiness and owning my own life, my life is complete. It is not what I thought it would be 20 years ago, I doubt anyone's really is. But, it's complete all the same.

Z.

October 6, 2004
12:02 pm
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sixfootblonde
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I don't expect the baby to fix anything. I was hypothesizing that the ache for a child and the empty space where a child would fit into our marriage, combined with my habit of putting distance between myself and the things that hurt me, could have perhaps contributed to the distance and space in our marriage. The love is there, the love has always been there, that is without an iota of doubt to me. I was meaning that perhaps a marriage goes thru different things without the conventional bonding of a family to hold two people together. This man that I love, this man whose ring I wear, has been thru hell right next to me and lost a baby along with me and our paths have led us here. Much praying and soul searching have led us here. I see two aching souls who long for a child and perhaps the raw hurting of the road here has contributed to the way these two souls that are my husband and I have drifted apart. When you try and you try and you pray until you sob and then the tears dry and you are left with a hollow ache, you begin to pull away a little from the one with whom you are failing, feeling you are failing him, that you aren't a whole woman, that perhaps the hole can be filled with business, with EMS, with whatever. When in fact the entire time, the hole was babyshaped?

I was thinking aloud. I do not expect to give birth to a solution of a dead marriage. I don't think mine is dead. I think it is hurting. I know that what is meant to happen will happen. God is still in control and we are not doing any procedure that forces fertilization. I searched extensively for a clinic that didn't cross lines I felt were grey.

Anyway. That's maybe a little clearer? I shouldn't feel I have to explain and I guess I know I don't. I guess I just wanted to clarify your impression as I feel it is not accurate of what I was meaning to say.

Dear Z, do you see?

October 6, 2004
12:30 pm
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gingerleigh
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As someone who is unable to have children of her own, I just wanted to pop in and let you know I was listening and taking good input from both of your posts, SFB and Zin.

SFB, I'm not beating up on you in any way, but something you posted earlier about your husband not being able to handle your emotions, that is concerning to me imagining the two of you together having and raising a child at this point. The emotional swings you will go through being pregnant and then delivery, and then kids are just one giant emotional vortex, and if your husband isn't able to handle the emotions of an adult (you), what will happen when the floodgates are released?

Not to say that you two can't work things out and make things better, or that you couldn't raise a perfectly happy healthy kid if things stay as they are. But it is something to consider.

Sending positive thoughts your way.

October 6, 2004
12:34 pm
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Zinnie
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HI SFB,

I DO see what you are saying, I really do.

Don't forget we also come from two very very different backgrounds.

Would you believe that before they would peform my hysterectomy, because neither myself nor my husband had "natural" children, and I was under the age of 40 - we had to go to a Mental Health professional?

Now... keep in mind, my husband and I are BOTH middle children. He in the middle of six, me in the midst of eleven. One of the things the Dr. wrote up in her report was that "Mr. & Mrs. Zinnie do not feel any type of void by not having their own child. They have step children, and that aside, they both grew up with a baby on their hip." So, you see we are in a different place that you are. For us to know and accept that we would not have "our own" child was in all honestly, although a little painful, for us, not the end of the world.

One thing I would suggest to you though... to help ease your pain perhaps... and to give back - have you thought of "adopting" a little sister through Big Brothers and Sisters?

Z.

October 6, 2004
12:48 pm
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Zinnie
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Ginger,

I have to laugh at what you wrote about children being an "emotional vortex" - I almost wrote "a continous black hole of needs and wants" - and although I don't mean it in any way that is bad... it's the truth.

SFB - the only thing I'm trying to point out to you, is that you know there are differences and problems in the marriage which have manifested themselves in many ways over the years. Again, growing up as I did, being brought up to believe that I was supposed to help my parents "fix their lives" I beg you to really really do deep deep deep soul searching on this.

Again, I know you want a child. I have no doubt that you will be a great Mom. BUT, at what cost to not only you, but your husband and child? You say you push others away, you build walls. Your husband cannot handle your emotions, and does not sound like he really deals with his much either, just kind of stuffs them down.

These are all serious things to consider before going for those treatments. I'm not saying in-vitro is wrong. For ME it was wrong, but for many reasons, most of what I wrote above. Because of all the other procedures and tests, etc., the thought of more... well, it just made my head spin. But, for many people it IS the answer; and you know if they have the money and the where-with-all to go through with it, by all means... do it. Again, I my intent was never ever to hurt you, just telling you: 1. my side, and 2. what I'm gathering by reading your posts as to your relationship with your husband.

Again, from what you say - he is a great guy - but, the question is "is he THE great guy for you?"

Am I making sense?

Z.

October 6, 2004
12:53 pm
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mj
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I wish my parents would have had this intellectual rapport before they chose to destroy their 4 childrens lives...or as Dr. Wayne Dyer states....these are our Lessons....and we chose our parents. I believe that a choice to have children or to engage in sexual intercourse is a choice.

October 6, 2004
1:20 pm
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mj
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Some choices are not ours to make.
The Serenity Prayer works in determining what is ours to change. Some people are blessed with children, some get to share others children, and some get the responsibilty of bad decisions. Whatever it is for each one of us...I think that love and support is so essential in helping others to know that they are not alone in their individual struggles. More importantly, our differences make us realize that our ultimate responsibilty is We ARE ONE with the UNIVERSE.

October 6, 2004
1:54 pm
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sixfootblonde
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"Some choices are not ours to make."

And what might those be?

And by such reasoning, who gets to tell others what choices they are allowed to make in their lives?

Ginger, I hear you. I do.

Zinnie, likewise. However if you read my post I said that the distance I put there is to deal with the failure with the whole baby thing.

Guys I gotta say it -- this is very emotional for me and I may react from the gut. Like I said, it's too personal to me to discuss rationally. I can't explain it. You'd have to be sitting here.

October 6, 2004
2:10 pm
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gingerleigh
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Gotcha lady, here if you want to talk about it (or anything else for that matter).

October 6, 2004
2:46 pm
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Zinnie
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SFB,

Ditto Ginger...

It IS your decision, and again, I have no doubt you will be an awesome Mother.

When the day comes that you post "Guess What????" Trust me, my friend I hope to be one of the first to congratulate you.

Z.

October 6, 2004
4:49 pm
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sixfootblonde
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Whew, ladies ... what a carefully tiptoing day huh? But I daresay if none of us cared we would have either bulldozed ahead or skipped it totally.

Thanks for the input all, I do hear you and I do realize what it appears at your end. Trust me when I say it's not how it sounded, there's so much history and more that doesn't bear going into. But thank you for caring enough to try to connect with me. Truly.

And ginger -- girl! Sorry I like took over this thread!! It was yours, remember when?? *grin*

Until tomorrow, all. Nearly time to head out the door into the beautiful weather Wisconsin is surprising us with today. Not many of these days left so I intend to make every bit count.

🙂

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