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Gender Politics makes for bad medicine.
November 3, 2004
2:38 pm
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Worried_Dad
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southgoingzax
3-Nov-04
I don't agree, and stand by my statement. While women certainly can be and often are manipulative, controlling, and verbally abusive, "battering" as in HITTING, is still a male-dominated activity. I am not saying that women don't do this, but I am looking at the numbers of women who end up dead because of their abusive male partners. Women batterers don't tend to kill anyone.
Verbal abuse is bad, sometimes just as bad if not worse, than physical abuse but let's not fool ourselves by pretending this is a gender-equal phenomenon. It's just not.
ZAX
The U.S. Justice Department¡¦s 1994 Bureau of Justice Special Report indicated that in the category of murders of spouses, women represented 41 percent of killers.1

In 1976, females murdered more than 1,357 male intimates.
In 2000, an intimate partner killed approximately 1,247 women and 440 men.
Wives or girlfriends kill 3 percent and 5 percent of male homicide victims, respectively.

What is the Stat, about 1.5 million battered women/year and 835,000 battered men per year. Yes, men tend to be more effective in physically injuring their partners. Just because a batterer does not kill you does not mean that they are not a batterer. As best I can tell, research does not support the idea that men hit their wives vastly more often than wives hit their husbands. Quite a few studies show the opposite.

My experience also shows the opposite. ¡§A¡¨ was a trained boxcer and wrestler who could literally kick my ass. She choked me until I saw stars, hit me hard enough to knock me practically unconscious, and threatened me with great big guns. ¡§D¡¨ was a mousy little thing who hit like a girl. But she actually managed to hurt me while ¡§A¡¨ did not. I know for battering, and I assure you that the little woman was more dangerous.

And let¡¦s not forget that women commit BY FAR the largest number of neonaticides, infanticides, and murder of their children. And let¡¦s not forget that there is a sizable population of females incarcerated for violent crimes against non-family members.

: In a 1975 national survey, researchers Richard Gelles and Murray Straus found that nearly equal numbers of husbands and wives committed violent acts against each other. These findings were confirmed 10 years later and in more than 100 additional studies

Suzanne Steinmetz, now a sociology professor at Indiana University, called "husband beating" the most unreported crime in the United States. According to a 1997 study of New Zealand young adults, women admitted committing severe physical aggression at three times the rate of men. Kicking and hitting with an object were typical examples of severe physical violence inflicted by women.

SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 155 scholarly investigations: 126 empirical studies and 29 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 116,000.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert.....ssault.htm

http://www.forensicnursemag.co.....death.html

.

November 3, 2004
2:49 pm
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southgoingzax
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You know what, worried dad;

I can understand why you take this perspective, having been in abusive relationships as you have. But I am not and have never said that women don't abuse. And I was not talking about women who kill their children. I am simply stating that in MY OPINION, and you can think it is wrong all you like, that women overall tend to be abused more frequently and with more violence BY MEN than men who are abused by women.

I do not appreciate this prolonged attack on my OPINION. You may have some very strong feelings about this and I must have hit a nreve but please let it go. I also have a strong opinion about this and a graduate certificate in Women's Studies, and I can tell you from my own experiences that women, much more so than men, live in perpetual fear of being attacked by a man, of being raped and/or killed by a man, of walking alone at night, etc. You are free to have your opinion, just as I am free to have mine.

November 3, 2004
4:02 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Here is an excerpt article (link provided) about battering in lesbian relationships. These victims do no need to be convinced that women batter.

http://www.haworthpress.com/st.....5&v=6

The reported rates of physical violence within lesbian relationships
vary widely, with estimates ranging from a low of 8.5% to a high of
73% in former lesbian relationships. Most studies found that between 30-40%
of surveyed participants had been involved in at least one relationship with a
female partner where an incident of physical abuse occurred. Pushing, shoving,
and slapping were the most commonly reported forms of abuse, while
beatings and assaults with weapons were less frequent. Sexual violence also
may be present in lesbian relationships, with estimates ranging from a low of
7% to a high of 55% in previous lesbian relationships. Victims experienced a
broad range of types of abuse, including forced kissing, breast and genital fondling,
and oral, anal, or vaginal penetration. Victimization rates increased dramatically
when psychological and verbal abuse was assessed, with more than
80% of surveyed participants reporting this form of abuse. Common forms included
threats and verbal abuse, such as being called names, yelled at, and insulted
(for reviews see Burke & Follingstad, 1999; Waldner-Haugrud, 1999;
West, 1998).heterosexual counterparts. Furthermore, the pattern
of abuse is similar across sexual orientation. More specifically, the limited
research suggests that lesbian battering tends to increase in severity and frequency
over the course of the abusive relationship (Renzetti, 1998).
However, there are several important differences between violence in lesbian
and heterosexual relationships. A lesbian batterer can use homophobic
control as a method of psychological abuse, which further isolates the victim.

November 3, 2004
4:12 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Zax, I do not intend to attack you personally. I just think statements like your facilitate victimization of heterosexual men, lesbians, and children.

What really bugs me about this one is that without exception, every book or workbook I've read, or website I have visited to facilitate my own understanding and healing has informed me in no uncertain terms, that my situation and problem is so vanishingly rare that it is of no consequence to society. That has been very unhelpful to me, to say the least.

Yes, I believe that violent men are dangerous. Yes, I believe that male batterers can do more damage than female batterers. But jeez, if 41% of spousal homicide defendents are women, then it just isn't fair or right to make sweeping statements which seem to deny the existence of millions of victims who desperately need help that simply is not available.

Please feel free to "attack" my opions at length. It's called discourse, discovery, reasoning.

November 3, 2004
4:24 pm
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Ren'ai wrote in the other thread.
¡§For me, this is a dangerous line of thinking.¡¨

¡§However, something that is not identified in the statistics stated by WD (no offense intended, but this is factual) is that if a woman has been abused by a man, and she finally has had enough and she throws a punch back, or scratches him, or whatever--well, guess what? That incident will be statistically listed as "abuse" against the male--NOT as self-defense. That is why the statistics for women-to-men violence are so high.¡¨

Actually, the motive for the assaults were researched in some of the studies, and the story was women reporting that they assaulted their partner because they were jealous, drunk, trying to make him obey, etc., etc. The same reasons that male batterers assault.

Yes, I understand that some violence is retaliatory or self-defense. But a lot of men have also gone to jail in the same circumstances.

The way out of this is first of all, to acknowledge that our society, and in fact most of the world, believes that violence is a good way of resolving problems. Witness the war in Iraq. But the actual origin is in the psychology of violent people¡Xthat somehow they have been socialized to have a high sense of entitlement and little conscience.

I¡¦m not sure, Ren¡¦ai, what was dangerous about the thinking in the psychopathology thread¡Xthe idea that we ought to study the pathology of abuse or the idea that we ought to allow that women, being human, with the same human instincts, frailties, weaknesses and vanities as men, can also be dangerous?

I just think that polarizing the issue on gender lines completely distracts form the more worthy questions of ¡§What is abuse?¡¨ or ¡§How can I spot a potential abuser?¡¨ or ¡§How can we help victims of abuse?¡¨

November 3, 2004
4:33 pm
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Cici
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I was raised to believe that a man simply never raises his hand in violence to a woman....

WD, I hate to butt in, but you seem to be operating under the assumption that we live in a world where equality of the sexes is a reality, and it isn't.

The basis for this behavior today can easily be linked to the patriarchal society that we live in. Men fear the social reprisal of admitting being abused by someone who is physically smaller with less muscle mass. I mean, this is true whether the guy is beat up by a smaller dude or a woman.

It's a gradual process, is all. Eventually things will be more equal. Gender politics cannot change overnight. They are changing as we speak. 10 years ago you probably wouldn't have been able to find that article.

November 3, 2004
5:33 pm
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Dear WD,

I would ask you to think about some things, such as "The Rule of Thumb". I have the feeling you already know that it refers to the fact that at one time, it was perfectly alright/legal to beat your wife with a stick as long as it was no greater in diameter to that of the man's thumb. No matter what, that's one hell of a dowel that a man could use to beat the hell out of his wife.

This is just one of many common ideologies about women (and children, I might add) as "property" of men. Men did not have to fight for the right to vote. Women did. Men did not have to fight for the right to own property. Women did. So I think what one must do is "get behind" the other. This is a phrase I like to use when talking about perceptions. In order to see what someone else is seeing, "get behind them", then you not only have full view of their perspective, but you also end up having that person's back, so to speak.

Yes, there has been research done on women-to-men violence and this is how I know that the statistics are drastically skewed because of self-defense being statistically logged as abuse. It is a valid concern.

Do I think battered men need protection? Yes, WD, I do! Do I think battered men need protection more urgently than women? When it comes to "triage" thinking I have to say no. Why? Because statistically we lose far more women to murder at the hands of their (ex)/intimate partner every year than men. If more women are dying, then the issue feels more critical for that particular group, and I would think it would feel more critical to others as well.

What would happen if we put battered men in shelters with women and got off the gender-based bus? I worked, and continue to work with victims and perpetrators of family violence. I could not begin to tell you the number of times I had perpetrators of abuse call the shelter to accuse their victim of being the abuser, despite the pictures taken in the hospital that clearly prove otherwise. An abuser will take advantage of any opportunity to perpetrate abuse on their target of choice.

Women have worked their asses off for years to address the issue of family violence and fight for the safety to which we are entitled. We have come a long way despite the fact that we still have to do such things as:

Never park next to a van.

Have your car keys out and ready BEFORE you get to the car.

Don't walk or jog in a secluded place alone, especially after dark.

The "Buddy System" and "Escort Services" for women provided by many college campuses now because women can't safely walk on a campus.

All the "How To's" on using car keys as a weapon, pepper spray on the key chain...

I could go on and on and on. How many times do you have to do a thorough 360 degree safety check before you walk to your car? For women, these precautions are common and not because we are afraid of other women.

That's why I said I feel like it is a dangerous line of thinking. Family violence is a men's issue. Men should be dealing with it. For the most part, it is the women and children who are dealing with it because we are the ones who pay the ultimate price because of it.

I know you had a terrible experience, WD. What I would like to see is for battered men to unite on behalf of one another and begin to put things in place for themselves. After all, the ONLY reason some women can find a safe haven from their abuser is because women worked their asses off to make sure it happened.

Respectfully,

Ren'ai

November 3, 2004
5:35 pm
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Here is the post that WD is referring to, for anyone who is interested. I hope you are...

Ren'ai
3-Nov-04

For me, this is a dangerous line of thinking. At the same time, I'm glad to see that such things are being discussed. This is one of the most critical issues our society faces, and yet, what do we "do" about it? This is where I get up on my soapbox...

At the present time, the leading cause of death for a pregnant woman is murder at the hands of her current or ex-partner. Think about that.

95% of all violent crime against women is committed by men. Interestingly, and again, statistically, 95% of all violent crime against men is committed by men. Think about that.

Are there women who kill their husbands? Yes. Are there women who kill their boyfriends? Yes. However look at the headlines. Lacy Peterson. Lori Hacking. Nicole Simpson. And these are only the "big" cases. Approximately every 8 minutes a woman will lose her life at the hands of her current or ex-partner, right here in the good ol' US of A. Please think about that.

I am utterly convinced that the reason for this behavior is because we, as a society, allow our young men to be raised with the belief that violence is an acceptable solution to a problem. In fact, we raise all our children to believe this. It doesn't matter what we try to teach our children in our homes. It's about what we permit the media to present to our children, through visual media, music, movies, TV, you name it! We let the media teach principles and morals to kids because we are not willing to take a stand as a society, about violence in the media. Please think about that.

Additionally, I would loudly state that when we, as a country, react to violence with violence, we are sending a message to our children and they do get it! I could not begin to tell you how many children I have heard say, "Why are we going to kill those people who blew up the WTC if we don't think killing is right?" The only answer I could provide is "Because sometimes grown-ups just don't know what else to do." And I do believe that there are other things we could have done that would have been just as effective as using bombs, but that's a different soapbox...

I am not in favor of violence against women, children, or men. Period. Maybe the true solution is to stop making so many gender-based perceptual decisions and start thinking about the soul that inhabits the body, regardless of gender. Think about that.

I absolutely agree that men in violent or abusive relationships need resources. However, something that is not identified in the statistics stated by WD (no offense intended, but this is factual) is that if a woman has been abused by a man, and she finally has had enough and she throws a punch back, or scratches him, or whatever--well, guess what? That incident will be statistically listed as "abuse" against the male--NOT as self-defense. That is why the statistics for women-to-men violence are so high. Think about that.

World change begins with individual change. What can YOU do? Think about that.

Ren'ai

November 3, 2004
6:10 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Ren'ai,

I hear your good intention I really do. I am certainly not one of the rabid "backlash" men's activists who would use data on domestic violence to "keep women out of shelters." I honor the fact that it is the Women's movement that initiated research into abuse to begin with. If not for them, we would still not have a clue.

Family violence, if we are talking about violence against children, is mainly a woman's issue. I had a lot of violence, including sexual violence directed at me as a child and I promise you women were the perpetrators each time.

Family violence, if we are talking about lesbian relationships, is completely and entirely a woman's issue. And I have to say, the misery that I see in the relationships of my lesbian friends (especially the younger ones) is incredible.

Gender profiling is a bad thing. Recently my friend Jim has been nursing his wife after cancer surgery. His wife's ex-boyfriend from high school showed up and kind of moved in with them to help with the nursing care. After some months Jim expressed concern that his wife and her ex boyfriend seemed to...friendly and asked him to leave.

The next day, she got a protection order against him saying that she was afraid he would be "mean" to her. Suddenly Jim is without a home, without a car and without a wife. People who know that couple are well aware that SHE is the dominant one in that family. But because of gender profiling, he is the one who gets screwed.

Believe me, I am just as hard, if not harder on male batterers than female batterers. A female batterer at least has the excuse of "I didn't think it would really hurt him." Any man who terrorizes women or children is worse than an animal--I know that is inhumane of me, but look at what they do.

But if 41% of spousal homicide defendents are women, then we have basically an invisible epidemic of violence on our hands.

And for that matter I would like to do something about non-physical violence. People are tearing each other to pieces without drawing blood. I think we should be teaching children about respect, about love, about boundaries and rights from a very early age. I wish someone had taught me.

November 3, 2004
6:22 pm
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You see, WD, we are on the same page so "High Five" *smack*

My only real argument with you about your last post is that women are the primary perps of violence against children. As a former investigator for Protective Services I can honestly state that is NOT the truth! Sadly, in most cases I worked, the women and their children were both being abused by the man of the house.

Oops! And one more thing, the 41% statistic does not take into consideration the number of women within that 41% who murdered a man who was abusing them. There are women who do so out of their own reality, the perception that it is the ONLY way they can escape the abuse.

I like your ideas about gender-based ideologies. What can be done about this? I'm asking because I'm sincerely interested in your opinion!!!

Ren'ai

November 3, 2004
8:05 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Ren'ai,

Of course, some people, both men and women, are being prosecuted as a result of violence that was committed in retaliation or self defense.
And of course, people (of both genders) who abuse their intimate partners are much more likely to be abusive to their children as well.

What can we do about the gender-war RE DV? God, I wish I knew.

One thing I hear is a fear that giving acknowledgement or resources to abused men will take resources away from battered women. Our society being a cheap-ass patriarchal pork barrel, I can sort of understand that fear. I have heard that there are like 3 times as many shelters for stray dogs as for battered women. That is unnacceptable. It's an outrage. It's a F****** crime againmst humaity. Never mind that the battered women (1) Outnumber the dogs, (2) are taxpayers and (3) are HUMAN BEINGS!

We've just got to make sure that battered women and the children they are trying to protect have adequate resources. And I don't think that would be as expensive as people think. Domestic violence costs a huge amount of money in terms of emergency room visits, ambulance calls, time lost at work. Intimate partner abuse is perhaps the SINGLE most important risk factor for depression and suicide!

If battered women and their children are given enough attention and respect and resources, then perhaps the militant feminist wing won't feel that it has to assasinate the character, sanity, or motives of those who point out the plight of abused men and the children that they are trying to protect.

We can't cure the hard core batterers with just public education campaigns. But with enough publicity, we could make Joe six pack consider that if he smacks his wife the guys at the bar aren't going to have a laugh about it with him any more. No, as men we have to hold each other accountable to be promise-keepers. When you promise to love a woman, you actually should love her. Duh.

As far as female batterers go....we first need to get over the idea that women can't be batterers. It's like defining marriage as being between man and woman--it locks society into an untenable reality. I think studying the problem with lesbian couples would reveal a lot and would free any such studies from the suspicion that they were labeling women just defending themselves from a man as abusers.

Very few men would go to a shelter even if it were available. We are too stinking proud. But we could arrange for there to be crisis line workers who are educated about how abuse really works, even for men. We could offer better education in public and secondary schools.

And we could require therapists and counselors to be educated about abusive relationships. That would be a huge improvement. For example, I wish that my counselors had known better than to encourage me strongly to remain in my relationship qith "D" when I informed them that I was through with her because of her assaulting me. What were they thinking?

I think that every one of us needs to be more curious, more nosey, more buttinski about what is going on in the lives of of our relatives, friends and coworkers, people on the street. These days, I see a kid and adult acting funny on the street, I grab a cop to have it checked out. Better safe than sorry. I hear a bad fight bteween the neighbors next door--I dial 911. I see a woman with a black eye, I ask her how she got it. And then I ask her if she is sure that is how it happened. I get a lot of strange looks, but hey, knowing what I know, if my inaction leads to even one woman or child being hurt then I would bear responsibility.

ANd peple, for heaven's sake talk to your kids, especially your daughters BEFORE they start dating. We talk to our kids about drugs, why not about safe relationships, too?

November 3, 2004
10:26 pm
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southgoingzax
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"41% of spousal homicide defendents are women".

How many of those are women who killed their ABUSIVE husbands? I will bet you anything 98% of those women claimed they were abused, and that their lives or the lives of their children were threatened, and that is why they killed their husbands/partners. As I have said, I am not ignorant of this issue, I have studied it extensively in graduate school and have never run across the statistic that men are so commonly abused.

You are taking what I said WAY out of context. I am NOT belittling or making less of any one who is abused. It is wrong on all counts. I simply do not believe your statistics. I am a victim's advocate, have been for 5 years, volunteering at my local university and have not once had a man utilize our services. And, if the scales are so evenly balanced, why are the vast majority of people who post here female?

I think yes, our society condones violence against women. Society tells women that they are the perpetual victim, that they are always at risk, will never be safe, which is why they have to have a male protector. Violence against men is not condoned, but because of the social stereotypes that we reinforce, males who are abused are seen as weak and unmanly; therefore, the stigma MAY keep men from reporting indicences of domestic abuse.

I think that a gendered discussion of violence is relevant. Because there are proscribed gender roles for men and women (and yes, even lesbians) in this country. And the fact that some men feel entitled to act as they do because of their sex should be questioned. For the last time, I am not saying that women don't abuse. However, their behavior is typically viewed as aberrant by this society and therefore outside of the normal realm. I can understand your frustration in not being able to find support for you and your situation, I am sorry you have gone through that. But globally and historically, men have always held the power and men have always used it to keep women in their place, with whatever means necessary.

November 4, 2004
12:27 am
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Worried_Dad
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Zax, I love you giving me a run for my money. I respect that. I enjoy that. By all means, don't allow me to get away with careless and irresponsible slinging of factoids. It's not easy to be thoughtful, is it?

Anyway, I don't agree or disagree with the already presented factoid:

The U.S. Justice Department's 1994 Bureau of Justice Special Report indicated that in the category of murders of spouses, women represented 41 percent of killers.

How much more authoritative can you get than that?

November 4, 2004
1:20 am
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The department of justice. I sort of trust 'em, sort of not. But it is a statistic. A piece of data that may or may not be valid. That's all. My job is to not only sort out which statistics are "valid" but also just what do all the "valid" statistics mean. That is easier said than done.

Of course I understand that contemporary women are as a class striving to overcome what has historically been an underclass condition. For heaven's sake, women weren't even allowed to vote around here before 1920. A close analogy can be made to the current condition of African Americans and how that condition is a result of 300 years of previous bondage and servitude.

And I understand that everyone alive today has been socialized into a culture that was born from the pre-existing culture.

Therefore I do not have a problem, for example, with discussing how patriarchal values help perpetuate abuse in many forms. Very interesting material. Good civil rights funding material.

But that knowledge does very little for me in trying to help traumatized victims. A woman who is bleeding to death needs immediate transfusion, not a lecture on the dangerousness of men.

And a female survivor of domestic violence, who, against all reason and common sense decides to go looking for a husband is not going to benefit from a lecture explaining that men are basically dangerous, and the historical basis for that dangerousness. No, she needs to be taught that she is a Human Being with inalienable rights. And she needs to be taught to recognize Dangerous Men.

And when you check out the psychology held in consensus by male batterers, it does NOT boil down to them saying "Well, I'm a man and she's a woman, so I thought it was okay." What it boils down to is the famous "Signs of a Battering Personality." Male Privilege is just one more circumstance that an abuser will use to their advantage.

When you say that there are proscribed gender roles for lesbian relationships you are contradicting the testimony of the lesbians involved. Even heterosexual relationships do not always follow "proscribed" gender roles. Battering lesbians may be great big butch women or little tiny femmes.

I guess I put this thread up to draw some of this fire from the subjects of victimology and pathology. Every abuser shares an intersection of a constellation of traits with every other abuser, regardless of gender. And every abuse victim shares an intersection of a constellation of traits and conditions with every other abuse victim, regardless of gender.

Of course a male victim of domestic violence, whether straight or gay, would not have risked employing your university services. How could a "gendered discussion" of his condition be helpful to him?

November 4, 2004
1:24 am
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southgoingzax
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Okay. I am going to have to pull out some sources and get back to you about how many of those women killed their husbands just because they could, not because their lives or their childrens' lives were at stake.

Are you a "Promise Keeper"?

Just asking - I like to know what I'm dealing with, being one of the "militant feminist wing" and all.

November 4, 2004
1:39 am
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Okay worried dad,

you clearly have more energy for this topic tonight than I - I concede defeat. I am looking at the issue from the angle I am most familiar with viewing it from. I definitely agree with teaching women that they are "human beings with inalienable rights", and how to recognize a dangerous man. But I never said that all men were dangerous....

I think ultimately, what my position boils down to, is that our patriarchal social structure is hegemonic by it's very nature, and it is the STRUCTURE, which was put in place by men, that is the problem. If we did not all operate under the perception that all of life is about hierarchy and "power over another", which is typically androcentric in nature, then we could cultivate gynocentric tendencies of empathy, compassion, and a level playing field, instead of a pyramid where there are losers at the bottom and the winner at the top. I am speaking in generalities here, but you get my point.

The women who are abusive, from MY perspective, have bought into what the system is telling them - that in order to be on top, they have the right to do whatever it takes, just as long as they get there. They have bought into the idea that power over another is an acceptable behavior pattern.

Geez. Let me know what you've got.

November 4, 2004
1:39 am
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Hi zax,

I think if you were truly of the hard core militant feminist wing you wouldn't bother pulling references--you would just hurl invective at me.

It doesn't really matter what percentage of the 41% killed in self-defense. What matters is, how do we help the victims?

I didn't buy tickets to the local promise keeper event. I just like the idea that men might organize themselves for the purpose of holding each other accountable to standards of decent, loving, socially responsible behavior which I myself try to learn, to do, and to teach.

November 4, 2004
1:54 am
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southgoingzax
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help the victims...

By restructuring our socio-cultural ideologies. If being "feminine" (in the ways that our society currently defines it) is no longer viewed as "less than", than both women and men could gain - women would no longer have to feel less deserving of the rights of all *humans* (which, as it is set up now, uses the male body and perspective as a standard) and men would be able to be caring and in touch with their emotions without degradation.

November 4, 2004
4:30 pm
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I think it's a wonderful idea to have people hold one another accountable. I especially like the idea of having men who are willing to stand up and say "NO MORE" to men who are abusing their wives and/or children. Unfortunately, we are still locked into gender, here.

I'm not sure what the answer is re: the Gender Biases...

Ren'ai

November 4, 2004
5:26 pm
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Worried_Dad
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The solution to gender bias RE DV? Education!

I've got a trauma survivors workbook. I like it except for the inevitable Q-A at the front of the book which includes:

Q: Are men ever victims of battering?
A: 3 pages of text expplaining that the answer is "no."

Book after book after book. Heck, look at eh front end of this site for more of the same.

This workbook explains that a woman need not actually endure physical violence to be a battered woman, because of the effects of cerbal, emotional, and psychological abuse.

It THEN goes on to explain that men can never be battered because women aren't big and strong enough to terrify us. Punches and slaps just roll off of us like water off a duck.

How can it be that men's verbal abuse can be battering, but women's assault and battery doesn't constitute abuse?

What I have experienced is called "secondary victimization" or "re-victimization." Women get this a lot during rape trials--It has much been argued that it is just plain impposible for a prostitute to be raped. Similarly, it seems to be impossible for me to have experienced what I went through.

November 8, 2004
5:16 pm
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Anonymous
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WD,

No matter how hard, how frustrating it gets, please try to remember that no one can de-humanize you without your permission.

There is truth in your words and experiences. There is truth in them for other men. It just isn't something that is talked about openly, like "Struggling's" thread on mother/daughter sexual abuse. It happens but we don't hear much about it.

Anyone can be abused. ANYONE. That is why, in my opinion, it is such a critical issue and needs to be addressed BEFORE we go drop bombs on people.

I know you see my point...

Ren'ai

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