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Fantasies gone wrong and relapse
November 11, 2009
4:00 pm
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hopeinhim
Lake Stevens, WA
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Please see "Keeping Secrets", "To break up or not break up" for more background:

Ma Strong, Atalose, and others who have replied: thanks for encouraging me to put this in black and white. I have not been able to, until now.

When I told "R" about one of my fantasies, he said that I should do it. I said I wanted to keep it a fantasy. We posted an ad on craigslist and we got a lot of replies. I changed my mind, and told the other men that the idea was off (it involved being with more than one man). So, later that night I went to his house. I asked if he had heard back from the other man we did not know if he had gotten the message, and he said no. We continued to talk, and "R" had gotten some rope to tie me up. We had wanted to try this for fun (I never had before). When I was tied up the talk got more dominant/submissive. He would leave the room, and then come back. I was also blindfolded at this point.

Then, he had me smell two beverages. He told me to pick which one I wanted. He knew I had not had alcohol in 6 + years, and I told him of my wishes to stay sober. He does not see alcohol as evil as meth. Long story short, I drank the 151 rum. I ended up having a blackout, all though I remember parts. One of my memories is "R" standing NEXT to me, and my blindfold is off, the room is dark, and there is an unfamiliar smell. It smelled like cigars, cigarettes, or pot - I am not sure. Another man I did not know was having sex with me. I remember being shocked and confused. The man came inside me, then I saw him get dressed, and leave. Since I was so drunk, I stayed the night, and "R" and I talked the next day. We both felt horrible, and were trying to process it. I told him that it was in no way a turn on for me, but I think he read too much into it. He thought I was just afraid to tell him I wanted it.......anyhow, neither of us liked it. "R" was really afraid I would leave him.

So, flash forward to less than a month ago. He was talking about other men again, and I was insisting that I really do not want anybody else. He gave me a few shots of rum (I have done some controlled drinking of 2 drinks, or 3 drinks over the course of an evening since the initial incident, but nothing like the first time). Then, he was egging me on, and I got past "that point". Then, it turned into inviting another guy over. I guess this guy was over 2 hours, and we had sex while "R" watched. I was so drunk, I had to ask him about it the next day. I told him I don't like it, and he admitted to being really jealous as well.

Some things we have cleared up since then, is that I do not want to drink, I do not want to have sex with other men. Talking about bondage, fantasies, group sex etc. is a slippery slope for him to relapse on meth, and for me to drink.

Right now, we have slowed way down on even our intimacy. We are both busy, and are trying to work on our relationship without sex clouding it. We actually do not fight about the above events, and we just want to move on.

About my being a chemical dependency counselor - I have not worked as one in months. So, I have not lost my license, but clearly I would have if I were still working. The work I did was very different, and I do not want to go into a lot of detail. It was initial contact and intervention, and I was very, very good at it. I had excellent boundaries as well.

I guess this became an avalanche slowly, where "R" had over a year clean off meth, was not watching porn, or masturbating etc. Then, when he relapsed, and I was already involved I stayed. Then, the above craziness happened, and I have stayed.

I know the definition of insanity, and we are doing things differently both with our own programs, and together.

I would love feedback, reactions, and advice. Thanks...........Hope

November 11, 2009
4:33 pm
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chelonia mydas
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(((Hopeinhim)))

This took a lot of courage to share and is a step toward a healthier and happier life.

After reading this it seems like he doesn't really respect you. If he did he wouldn't have had another guy over a second time. He also would be supporting your choice to stay sober 100%, no questions, no mystery drinks, no games, period.

My advice is...
Have you considered maybe working your program on your own and him working his program on his own and eliminating the additional complications of a relationship for a while? Once you both are a little further along in recovery maybe re-evaluating the relationship to see if it is still what both of you want. If he is truely the man you were meant to be with, then he will still be that 6-12 months from now. If he isn't, its better to focus on your recovery and not let him continue to hold you back.

I too have tried different things to indulge my partner's fantasies, so I'm not knocking you for that. But it needs to be something that both of you do sober and willing and in a way that enhances the relationship. It shouldn't be something to just get past and move on from. And if it ever is that kind of situation it certainly shouldn't happen more than once. Although I also understand all too well how it can reoccur and how you think things are different when they really aren't. I've been there myself. It doesn't get better from here, at least it didn't for me. The only way I could start to heal was when I took some time for myself by myself and I could focus on me and my issues. He was welcome to come back to the relationship, but he chose not to.

Sending you support and comfort during this difficult time.

November 11, 2009
8:26 pm
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haythere
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(((Hopeinhim)))

This must be a very painful time for you.

In my humble opinion, he doesn't respect you. He is relapsing and taking you with him. Just because he is willing to talk things thru doesn't make him honest. If he was honest, this would not have happened a second time, if he respected you it wouldn't have happened the first time.

You said you had excellent boundaries when you were working, you need to find those again and stick to them. I'm no expert, but my son is an addict who is so good at saying all the right things. It is his actions that speak the words he does not say.

I truly hope you can find your way out of this to a healthier you. Chelonia had some very good advice. Sorry if I was too harsh. (((hugs)))

November 11, 2009
9:55 pm
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hopeinhim
Lake Stevens, WA
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Chelonia,

I DAYDREAM about working my own program, and being independent instead of dependent. But, it seems like every time I try, I get weak. I guess my back up thought is at least if I am with one guy it is better than being distracted and lonely, or.......I don't even know. I almost - now, this might make you laugh: I thought I would stay out of trouble being with just one guy. I am addicted to relationships, and so when I am not in a committed relationship I tend to always have a guy in the works. The energy, the time, I guess I don't want to devote to it. Yet, I don't want to face the energy and time that he is taking from me. I mean the relapses have been devastating.

Tonight, on the phone he just admitted that he was really having some strong cravings. The cravings for meth get brought on by his sex drive, and so he does not identify with "tweakers", and sees himself primarily as a sex addict. Indeed, meth is so powerfully sexually, that for a sex addict it is nearly irresistable. It made me question his perception of control over the drug. I told him eventually he will get worse, there could be a "tipping point" where he experiences the intense cravings in shorter and shorter intervals.

You were also right about him supporting my sobriety. I have been surprised about how many people do not support it. I did not get that deep into it, so some who knew me when I partied thought it was a phase, but I thought when working as a counselor that I would just not drink. It was not really that difficult, although I would reflect on some good times. But, I do not like that I threw away over 6 years. Whether I was tied up or not, I got myself in the situation.

Haythere,

Yeah, he did not show respect by the actions he took - I know. He knows, too. He was deeply ashamed, and of course this support thread is the only place I have shared this. Part of me wonders how I could even tell another man about this past that I have now. See? In my mind I just jump to the "next" one. It is ridiculous.

November 11, 2009
10:05 pm
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atalose
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I agree it did take a lot of courage and strength for you to share and that is a step forward. Obviously this has been bothering you and frankly I can see why.

I also must agree with chelonia and haythere, I am sorry to say, this guy does not respect you. He’s looking for a playmate to play with on his playground of addiction.

Have you taken any steps to make sure you have not contracted any STD’s with these experiences? He obviously didn’t care about that did he?

If it were only that one time things could have been different but the fact he dis-respected you a second time is appalling.

I know you think you can work this all out with him, but you’ve only gotten a taste of what he’s all about. His actions are what you need to see not just hear his words….because the words of addicts mean nothing.

Have you though about counseling for yourself and your codependency issues? What kind of a program are YOU working?

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

November 11, 2009
10:13 pm
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atalose
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Something else I just thought about, if he allowed you to get so drunk that you blacked out and couldn’t remember it all………..couldn’t that constitute that he master minded a rape.

Are you sure this is the kind of guy you want to devote more time to?????

What’s his history besides drugs? Was he ever married? How about other relationships? How did they all end?

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

November 11, 2009
10:31 pm
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hopeinhim
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Hi Atalose,

I guess I see the first and second time differently. The first time it happened I did not know it was going to, and I would say the other guy must be okay with raping a woman for sure. I mean, I was tied up, blindfolded, and wasted. The second time, I started drinking, and said I did not want to cheat or be with anybody else but him. He pushed the alcohol, and I drank it. So, the second time, I feel like I had a bigger part in it. But, I bet others reading disagree? I don't know......

I guess I just have to know that I know so that I don't go back to salvage anything.

He was married, and the woman he was married to encouraged him to go have sex with other men. He was not turned on by men, so he would go out, come back, and tell "fish stories" that he had had contact with men. It was the only thing that gave her an orgasm. So, when he discovered meth one night then he did not care about who he had sex with. So, eventually she got turned off by it, and decided it was wrong and really rejected him. She cheated on him, and got pregnant. Altogether, the relationship was 10 years, and meth was involved the last 6 probably.

As far as my program, I have an AA sponsor who knows none of this. I started Nar Anon, but can't go until not this Saturday, but the next one. And, I am back on here. I don't know if I could speak allowed the above happenings.

November 12, 2009
9:58 am
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atalose
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It’s like witnessing a car accident....five people could witness the same car wreck and come away with FIVE different interpretations. I think the majority here, your sponsor in AA or members at a Nar-anon meeting will agree that this guy has brought abuse to your life, he’s lied to you, he’s used you for his OWN satisfaction, he’s disrespected you and your sobriety, as you said, he pushed the alcohol……of course he did how else was he going to get HIS WAY of witnessing you being raped especially after you already said you didn’t want to participate……. yet you continue to justify his behavior by putting it on you and drinking. You say the OTHER guy must be ok with rape yet you fail to see your BF as the real rapper here.

So pretty much his 10 year relationship or marriage was also filled with drugs and sex but it was HIS ex’s fault????? hummmmm

At one point you mentioned your kids, how old are they and what is their interaction with this guy?

Have you given any serious thought to some counseling for yourself?

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

November 12, 2009
10:17 am
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hopeinhim
Lake Stevens, WA
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Atalose,

His interaction with my kids is almost nothing. He came to a family party the night before Halloween, but there were a bunch of people, music, and the kids hung out with others.

Most of the time, I go to his place, or we go out when the kids are in school. I guess I think of the situation with the first incident different because he did not like it. Reportedly, did not like it.

I have asked him to get rid of the alcohol, too. He doesn't. I should really push it, and see what he does. I will keep you posted.

November 12, 2009
11:35 am
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StronginHim77
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I'm not a medical professional; however, I think (from what you have shared) that you have addiction issues yourself. Yet, you are trying to micro-manage and counsel him about his OWN ADDICTION ISSUES? Whoa.

Sounds like you have relationship addiction, as well as a few others overlapping. But that appears to be your "addiction of choice." The booze and sex-play with multiple partners are part of the overlap.

You would genuinely benefit from getting some therapy to help you see how sick this relationship is. He is an addict. Selfish. Unable to love anyone. Highly manipulative. And you are allowing him to use you. But it was YOUR choice to allow it. That is what concerns me.

Also, you keep shifting the blame away from him. I used to really love an alcoholic...and I made excuse after excuse for him, too. But the bottom line was that addicts are users. They use people to serve their own wants and needs. He let you be raped. TWICE. He contributed to your choice to resume drinking.

A man who loved you would never do that.

And you are also leaping ahead in thought to the "next" man, if you break things off with this freak? WHOA.

I really hope you give therapy some serious consideration. As a counselor, you understand how off the charts this situation is. Do something to help yourself. And remember one of the rules of counseling: you can't counsel someone with whom you are emotionally/sexually involved. That is crossing the line...yet that is part of what you appear to be doing.

- Ma Strong

November 12, 2009
1:24 pm
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hopeinhim
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Ma Strong,

Do you really think it is rape both of the times? It is such a stark, harsh thing to think he cannot be possible of love. I see all of this evidence of why he does love me.

I don't counsel him, and he knows I cannot be his counselor. I do not tell him what he should do, but I ask him where he is at, wants to be, what he wants different. I think I would do that with anybody despite being a counselor, or not.

I put it out there that I think of "next", and I know I have relationship addiction. I am on here because I need help. I have had counseling before, but I would want a brand new counselor who does not have any background with me.

For now, I need to come clean with my AA sponsor. I can go to Nar Anon again a week from Saturday. Also, I can post on here. I have not had sex with him for a couple of days, and it is looking like we are both so busy we will continue our abstinence.

I just don't know how or when to end it. I have these excuses.....things coming up that I need to wait for. I have done this before with a more overtly abusive man, and there was always SOMETHING. Some reason to wait to break up. It took him sending my mom to jail to end it.

November 12, 2009
1:29 pm
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atalose
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Hope,

Why don’t you explain all of the things YOU see as evidence of his love for you?

That’s a good beginning because us codies do see things differently then healthy people.

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

November 12, 2009
2:30 pm
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Anonymous
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Hopeinhim:

I am afraid for you 🙁

Until you find a new counselor and have the support of your face to face groups, here are some resources that I found to be extremely helpful.

Carnes is excellent!! Some of his work, and at least some articles by him are available online.

The Betrayal Bond - Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships by Patrick Carnes. (how to exit an exploitive relationship)

Out of the Shadows: Understanding Sexual Addictions - Patrick Carnes (especially ch 4 on co-addiction)

Facing Love Addiction by Pia Melody
(goes through steps of disengaging)

How to Spot a Dangerous Man before you Get Involved - Sandra Brown (talks about loopholes to stay in a dangerous relationship)

The Emotionally Abused Woman by Beverly Engel (Explains why women accept bad treatment. She has a website too.)

Also, check out meetings for:

SLAA - Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous http://www.slaaonline.org

CoSA- Co-sex Addicts Anonymous

Yahoo has several online anonymous meetings for SLAA and COSA.

You deserve to be treated so much better. Please take care of yourself.

Moon & Stars

November 12, 2009
2:54 pm
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hopeinhim
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Moon & Stars,

Wow - thanks for the resources. I will see how many are on-line and from there go to the library.

Atalose - I am on a break at work so I will definitely post later the reasons why he loves me. I will start a new thred: he loves me....he loves me not.

Thanks so much you guys!

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