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Everyone who responded-from newly married STUPID codependent guy!
November 21, 2001
12:59 am
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messed up again
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Hey thanks for the responses everyone (I think?)
I 'd like to respond to the 3 of you and please anyone else who'd like to chime in, feel free.....

Molly: My first wife was bulimic and eventually got deathly sick. I tried everything I could to help (in sickness and in health....right???) but she never stayed well for long and would go right back. This caused a lot of problems between us of course and she eventually cheated...and thats when I left. My second wife was a rebound thing I think. At first things were great, but when we'd go to a party she started doing pot and I am very anti-drug so that of course caused problems. The next couple years she got deeper into it, other drugs, then in and out of rehab......I left when she flat refused to ever quit. Third wife I had NO intention of marrying, but she became pregnant "while on the pill"....so I did what I felt was right. After our son was born she freaked out with doting on him (still does) and I became invisible to her....and she beat me to asking for a divorce. But I did get the greatest little guy out of that marriage.
Ok....you also asked if I've done any growing, trying to figure things out.......YES.....I feel like thats all I do!!! 2 years ago I , ME, initiated counseling. She said "hell no, all our problems are your fault anyway". I said fine and went alone.......that lasted 2 months and she couldn't stand it. She then joined in. The counselor ended up being an abuse survivor herself and I'm not real sure if she helped or not. The outcome was "she needs to recover at her own pace even if that means never recovering at all" (???) and I was told to make a decision to stay or leave. She swore she was doing the best she could and asked for time and patience...so I said okay. I have also read a million books....but I guess I missed something big a long the way. No adultery....well that I know of anyway. I know that people addicted to relationships often "protect their supply" by being jealous. Well, maybe I was just paranoid all the times I suspected her of cheated. I don't know. She's away on travel a lot and there has been some pretty incredible "circumstantial" evidence....but oh well.....unless I get a poloroid shot to put in her face I might as well forget about her EVER admitting it. I guess the reason I asked if anyone knew like a statistic about how long this would last (aprrox. of course) is because we have already been together longer than ANY of my marriages and I was wondering if that made some kind of difference....like maybe we really will work it out or else we wouldn't have already stayed together this long....right???????? (she says we'll be together forever) So what are the chances....6 months? 2 years? 10 years? forever?? Anybody got that statistic? Or a similar experience?

Ladeska:
You sound like maybe you've been there. Have you??? Also, no I didn't mean JUST me maturing...her too.....I hope. But I know I can't control her and I feel like this would at least be the best thing to do now that we're married (trying more understanding and compassion). I admit it's hard to see her being so nice to everyone else but behind closed doors she is mediocre at best. Once
in awhile we have a good laugh together or do something fun....she's just always so tired, or not feeling well....(and yes some has been diagnosed by doctors, persistent headaches, backaches, etc...and once again....in sickness and in health, for better or worse....) So between that and the fact that she is still working through some VERY awful sexual abuse as a child, she seems to have like a very subtle contempt for me. I mean who knows.....who's to say that she won't wake up to all this next week and start recovering??? Not sure about the not wanting intimacy part. Actually I truly feel, to the best of my knowledge, that I would kill to have a wife who had a romantic bone in her body, who treated me like her best friend, who loved long heart-to-heart talks. So I don't know about that part. I think I would have chosen someone who was "capable" of intimacy if I hadn't already made the committment to her to marry her and if I could get away from the feeling that she needs me. I wish I could just snap my fingers and make it so, but I am truly physicaly and emotionally exhausted right now and it seems the best I can do is just keep the peace. Wasn't exactly sure what you meant when you wrote, "Just depends on how you guys can make your pain work for you. Some people figure it out so that it almost kills you, but not quite....just sort of slowly drains you over time..." Huh????
And I don't know about the tape playing in my head....sometimes I feel worthy...sometimes I don't. Doesn't help I guess that I am repeatedly told I'm "selfish and mean". By the way, I have never once been verbally or physically abusive...and rarely say "no" to anything.

and Blondie!!!
Wow! Don't be so shy!! LOL. Hey don't let anyone ever tell you that you're not outspoken enough, okay? First....NO to B/D/S/M!!! I'm actually a pretty nice guy (hey, THAT didn't sound codependent!) I don't drink or do drugs, have worked out a gym (almost) every day for 17 years.....have been an engineer for 20 years, love my family and friends and would give my life for my son. I truly have NO IDEA where my problem originated from!!!!!
Next....you say there are "plenty" of statistics to prove it.......from where??? I can't find anything. My wife says we will be married forever.....I tried to tell her I wasn't too sure about that if some changes don't take place........so I NEED statistics/advise/whatever to show her!!!! Help anyone????
As far as me being a "loser'....thanks I needed that. And if I knew why oh why I keep doing this I wouldn't be writing to a discussion board for help!! Also......like I said above to Molly....maybe she won't find someone to pull into her "web". Maybe me thinking she has cheated before was just me being paranoid......possible, isn't it?????

So thats it.....I would still appreciate input from anyone who cares to write.
Thanks,
Brian

November 21, 2001
1:57 pm
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Ladeska
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Brian...kinda confused about the thing of you wanting a statistic...I mean, so what, if you get one? Just because someone gives you a number - what is that really going to mean to you in real time here? Is it going to throw you one way or the other? Then would you be going to a palm reader or psychic next? I think you can think for yourself here and that's what you "need" to be about doing.

But, that's going to require some honesty "with yourself", so be prepared to do that or you'll just continue to sit and spin here. The pain statement that I made which you didn't understand is basically just saying - alot of people are in your shoes, they have tremendous pain in their relationship and yet they stay in it and make their pain, their pile of crap into an ashtray or a fruit bowl, paint it real pretty colors and make it part of their life. The smell may really make them sick, but you'd never hear them admit it enough to do something about it. They just "live with it", which is what I see you doing - if things don't drastically change.

Okay, she's abuse victim. So am I. And alot of people use this as a crutch for the rest of their lives and some people even "lie" about it happening in the first place because it's a good con and excuse to use whenever they just don't want to "be there" in real life. They pull the card out and play it. Sounds harsh, huh? Well, I just had my best friend of a few years - do this one to me. After I had genuinely loved her, been her real friend and come to find out - the little witch had been playing me and everyone else in her life with the abuse card. Didn't happen. She just worked it. So, hey - may be it did happen and maybe it didn't. It all bears looking at under the microscope.

The deal is - what is okay with you in a marriage? You obviously need to feel needed....that's really plain to see. So, I guess if that floats your boat - that floats your boat. But, uh, you wouldn't be here if you were all that thrilled with it, right?

So, when you gonna stop picking projects, Dude? Is that the way you trick them into loving you....I do so much for you because you have an affliction here that you will owe me in the end because I have stuck through thick and thin with you? We are capable of doing that, ya know? Even the nicest people can do that subconsciously and just not own it. So, think about that one.

It's called passive aggressive behavior. We hitch up with someone who has "all the problems" and we do and do for them, making ourselves the wonderful martyr and in the end the spotlight comes to rest on us and how much we've done....how much we've hung in there....we gave even though they couldn't give anything...and we should be getting quite the return for all this loyal and hard work at some point, right? Well, ya know....the thing is - you probably pick people who really don't give a rip about any of that to begin with. Go ahead - work your butt off for me, love me, change my diapers, whatever - and I'll just lap it up and owe you nada, but hang in there as long as you can, okay? And the other thing is - you never have a chance of getting close to them and you know it...so what's up with that? You say you "hope" in so many words, but do you? You're smart, right? Can't you see "impossible situation" written all over this one? So, what's the real reason you are staying? What is your real "cookie" or "reward" that you are getting from all this. Because you are definitely....getting something or you would have been gone way before now, in fact, you never would be with her in the first place. She gives you something you crave. What is it? All this smoke screen here is hiding what's really up here? You are with her for a very definite reason and it's not the thing about wuv, wuv, twue wuv either. Something else is up here... She enables you to "be something" that is very important to you and you are quite lost if you are not in this "position" in a relationship because you keep "putting" yourself back in it. So, like I said - time for honesty.

November 21, 2001
2:07 pm
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Molly
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Well, this is the longest relationship my husband has ever had, and to tell the truth, its been hell. I suggest you look into the narcissist stuff, Ladeska has a website posted on Ranmars #6 threads, and there is another one on healthyplace.com. Gave me lots of insight, as to how we have managed to hold on, then when I left, how come I returned, and why its taken me so long to get the heck out of here again. Hostage!!!! However, there is some what of a cycle to it, and you can learn to protect you to hold on to the history, the warm fantasy fuzzies that play in your head that help to keep the energy and finances at bay that would force you to leave. But I still say get the one book, and do some thinking, don't make emotional decisions, take your time. The truth is it will last as long as your willing to live like this. When your sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, when you realize that living alone is better than being lonly confused, abused, cheated of what you committed to, and there is not future hope, and cant see the light, time to change tunnels.

November 21, 2001
2:50 pm
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Ladeska,
you gave me A LOT to think about and I promise I will. So far the only "payoff" I can think of is feeling like I'm needed (constantly!) and that must be something I desperatly need. The reason I asked about the statistic is because my wife has said that she doesn't believe all that "BS" and that our marriage is fine and will last forever. I wanted to be able to show her that that's not exactly true....but not by just my word, which she wouldn't believe anyway.

November 21, 2001
3:00 pm
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She's full of it, Dude. What she's really saying to you is - this is the way I Like it. She doesn't want the intimacy either.... so, in one respect you guys picked each other for the reason of staying at a distance from each other. You've got some issues as far as - what you married one another for and what your idea of love is. My guess is - it has nothing to do with - what love really is and more of a compulsive need to be needed by you, and have you keep trying to hit the target that's always out of reach - for her. The thing is - you've colored all this "love" when it really isn't at all and you've put it under what marriage should be about and it's not that either. It's a halfway house for two people that are extremely dysfunctional and trying to hide out from society.

Time to face the mirror. She could care less about statistics. You're never ever going to prove squat to her, she'll keep you running around on wild goose chases forever if you let her. She's content because - the facade is there of - we have a marriage. That's obviously important to her and to you as well. but, the center of the poison apple - ain't all that is it?

So, what would happen to you if you didn't have all this? Would you disentegrate into a million little pieces until you found another woman like her - to do this all over again with? Is this where you get your worth by earning it being a martyr. Yuch.... Who taught you that one?

So, tell me about your role models for marriage.....what was your parents relationship like? You don't really want someone that close to you, that's obvious to me, just time to find out "why"? You picked someone really unavailable for all that and you did it for a reason. Why should everyone stay out in the outer court from you?

November 21, 2001
3:18 pm
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Lock and load....I see him coming around the corner again for round two....geez....he is kinda cute though....bounces well.

November 21, 2001
3:24 pm
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Blondie and Ladeska,
You should have been writers...or comedians.
Sorry I'm not much in the mood for fun right now.....got a lot on my mind. I'll write later.
B

November 21, 2001
4:34 pm
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A real keeper AND a loser....at the same time??????? hmmmm.....
yeah in fact I am a nice guy.....just HATE hurting people!! Hate guilt....had enough of it in my life. I don't know yet what my future holds.....but I know I'm about to find out. And Ladeska, you asked about my role models. On Friday my mom and dad will be married 55 years. They still take walks holding hands...if that tells you anything. Like I said I don't know why I am the way I am....I was hoping someone here would.
You guys have a blessed Thanksgiving!!
Brian : )

November 21, 2001
4:43 pm
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Brian...well, I'd buy that bit about the holding hands picture but I know too much to pass by that and go "okay, that's great". I know alot of people that at first glance - you'd think all that. But, under the surface IF you take a good, hard look you might see some other things...like - one person who constantly gives into the other one, a passive aggressive control freak who always looks like the good one - but is the one who pulls the strings and makes people dance - while all the time - smiling so very pleasantly.

You didn't just develop this on your own.....and it doesn't mean that - your parents are horrible, but you learned a pattern that's deeply ingrained here from somewhere...

Believe me - I've had people who have flown at me with anger when I start chipping away at this and they tell me the same story...everyone is great, family is great, growing up was wonderful, I can't complain, wouldn't be right, blah, blah, blah...and little by little the real picture comes into view and then SLAM - I get it right in the face - how dare I - go there. They had it all packed down, locked up, padded nicely and stowed away under the bed and how dare I - bring it out into the light.

Well....everything may be apple pie, but let's be sure and take a good hard look around....think about it....was everything so very rosie? Does one of your parents bend over backwards for the other one? What are the real dynamics of their relationship?

November 21, 2001
4:46 pm
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P.S. - the people who rail at me - are usually the ones after six months, one for 1 year - came back later and said - this is bugging the stew out of me - all the things you said are haunting me and as bad as I hate to admit it - I need to cough up some stuff here and out it comes. The one that didn't speak to me for a year - was the very one that proclaimed with everything she had that her parents were great and nothing was wrong there. She has since recounted things that would make you curl up into a little ball and want to die - just because you heard it..... This it not to say - this is your case. But....I know all about denial and how strong it is and how bad we think we are when we speak about our hurts. Family is sacred business. And can be deathly sacred, especially when it kills the spirit and everyone is trained to smile and nod while it happens.

November 21, 2001
5:03 pm
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Ladeska,
May I ask if you're a professional counselor?
B

November 21, 2001
6:35 pm
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Brian....the deal with me is I'm a Hedges and Byways kind of counselor. By choice, I have no degree, don't want one. Figure the life I've been through is degree enough. Besides, don't have the time left in my life to devote to some squirrel telling me all about people's theories on this and that. I've seen life, lived life, all I know is what I've lived and seen. So, I use the gifts I have to help the people I bump into. Mostly, I counsel abuse victims, but at times - just do the old common sense thing, too. Have done quite a bit of family intervention, been the ref., cleared the floor, kicked butt and taken names. Amazing how that's worked. I'm still in shock. (smile)

We all have alot to give each other if we just will. People with counseling abilities don't always have to graduate with a sheepskin from somewhere to be effective. And, I don't want any money for what I do, would spoil it for me I think. Maybe it would be nice in some ways, but it's a thing from the heart. I've also seen alot of damage done from so-called doctors and therapists that just pisses me off to no end, so it's like my way of saying - sit down, shut up and move over, you've had them for ten years and haven't done squat, let's rock and roll now.

Hate to see people's pocketbooks get milked and given drugs and some assinine advice that does them zippo good. People aren't idiots, give them some tools, slap them up side the head with truth and expect the best out of them. Most people will grab the brass ring and blast out of Elm Street. Those that don't, never wanted help in the first place and I don't have time for them.

If people will do the work, I'll be there all day for them, but I don't like slackers. I like doers and people who want to be responsible for their lives. You may have to get dirty to accomplish that but laying in the gutter and wallowing in crap isn't too pleasant either, is it?

And don't let Blondie fool you, the last time I tried to be an angel, my halo fell down around my waist and about the best I did was win a hula hoop contest at Venice beach! Wings are down to two feathers anyways, don't fly real straight anymore. Gabriel keeps getting really fired up at me because when he says fly east, I fly towards the closest McDonalds... Interference I think, he needs to speak up, my hearing is going...

November 21, 2001
7:38 pm
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Blondie,
Not sure how you equate "loser" with all you've accomplished and came through. You sound like quite the winner to me.
As far as why I keep doing this over and over...I wish I knew. Can I ask you this....when you were using, why did you do it over and over? (don't mean that sarcastically). Maybe it's just that rock bottom thing I keep hearing about...and apparantly (??) I'm not there yet. As stupid as this sounds I guess I worry that I never will. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a functional numb state. All I know is weeks before our wedding I was a nervous WRECK. Tried talking to her, all she did was get mad. Tried reasoning, tried explaining that people shouldn't go into marriage WITH problems already. She just gave lip service as usual and I dropped it. Anyway......who knows when I'll have "enough". I just don't know : (

Ladeska,
Well for not being certified you do a good job at counseling. I am also grateful for your ideas and opinions......but like I said above, not sure when I will find the courage I need. I realize that makes me a "slacker" but at least an honest one.

Brian

November 21, 2001
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Holy cow!!! What a story! Thanks for sharing it with me....that took courage I'm sure. You are definitely a walking miracle I think. Thank God! Did you join AA or NA....or do 12 steps? I've thought about that...the 12 steps....I hear everybody could use them actually.
What is it going to take for me??? I'm not sure. I will say this much....I WOULD, without a doubt, leave if I caught my wife cheating. Thats something I have zero tolerance for. Our sex life is next to zero now and I can't imagine the hurt of knowing somebody other than her own husband was more deserving. Like I said before I have suspected her on 3 seperate occasions....wish I could have found more solid proof. Maybe just being sick and tired of being sick and tired will do it.....sick of no sex, little compassion, little compromise, intimacy, concern. I just don't know WHEN......and for a reason I don't understand that bugs the crap out of me!!!
(probably also has something to do with wanting to know a statistic, or even a rough estimate!!!)
B

November 28, 2001
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Hi Blondie,
Yeah, I'm here.... and life sucks!
Brian

(p.s. but thanks for your concern : )

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