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emotional abuse
March 23, 2001
11:09 am
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lazydazy
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So my mom and dad abuse me and my sister. Always sarcasm, never do things good enough, never show us affection. i was the silent-passive child while my sister is the more violent, manipulative child. The thing i want to know is...why do parents do this? Is it because they want to keep us theirs forever? What kind of power and control do the get out of brainwashing us? If they are supposed to love us unconditionally, why do they put us down so much? Why am I suffering emotional problems because of their selfishness? What do I do to overcome all of this...not trusting my own emotions, being completely passive and withdrawn, trying to duck confrontation at every cost, trying to spare people feelings while being completely super-sensitive to all comments and criticism thrown toward me and getting through a major bought of depression, getting over this perfectionist attitude and how everything I do is not good enough? Why do I have to look to others to give me the confidence I am lacking?

March 23, 2001
11:15 am
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lazydazy
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does anyone know where I can find info. on children of emotional abuse? All I can find is physical abuse and spousal abuse...

March 23, 2001
11:22 am
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Cici
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Parents do this because they are people, they are fallible humans just like everyone else. Having a child can't give you the key to understanding other people.

Look, it's so much easier to forgive them for their misdeeds. It's even in the "Our Father" - "forgive US our tresspasses as WE forgive those who tresspassed against us".

In my experience, the motivation for doing hurtful things to other people is often hugely complex. And there are always feelings of self-haterd/self-loathing tied up in any kind of abusive behavior.

You don't need to have an apology in order to forgive someone. I forgave my parents for the mistakes they made without even bringing up the subject.

And if prayer isn't your cup of tea, listen to the song "Let it be" by the Beatles. I mean it. Go listen to it right now!!! ha ha 🙂

March 23, 2001
2:49 pm
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Molly
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All of this drama in its self is some what of a brain washed attitude. This last decade is the first time that I can remember so much discussion, and enableing of depression,consider its a financial agenda to sell pills, or put therapist into Mercedes.Seen the commercial for anti depressants for dogs, can't you see through this ? What is the gain in depression, and blame? Super sensitive to critisim, we all are, be with it, I have to. Abuse,gee, the definations keep changing, just what is it today? well, what about all the good things that they have done, real easy to forget that when your on the self centered pity party. So your sister is a born sales man, and your what going to be a victim all your life?Sorry but that is what all the pop psyche has done for our children today. Who knows like Cici's suggestions, maybe they were still children when they had you? Maybe this is all they learned from their parents. Some how encouraging a child to do their best, is now considered demanding perfection? Life today in its self is demanding perfection, well its a jungle out here, and you better be pretty good to compete, or be prepared to go on welfare.Scarcasim is a way of life today, some where the be pretty and nice nice, was referred to as denial, or something we learned was only for TV. What you are only to get praise, for what you choose to do,, and when you choose to do it? This might sound rough, but it is in a way reality. Trust me, your parents didn't sit around talking about gee, wish I had some one to mess with, gee who can we abuse, wow, lets have children. They gave you life, and most likely in this very sick, demanding world, where the picture of parents or parenting has become so distorted, there is no winning, or right, or rights any more for that matter. Maybe I am just in a bad mood, but considering how bad some kids really do have it with their parents, and some how still try to be respectful, it makes me go hmmmmmmmm.Why don't you just turn them into social services, and get placed in foster care? Do them a favor before your college tuition is due. Boy I am hitting below the belt today huh. Read White Oleander, look for the good in your life, work hard at being a good person, and be full of love and gratitude, vs judgement. Just try it for a day. Sorry I was rough, but just a different perspective, mean ole Molly

March 23, 2001
2:59 pm
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leedobo
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I was emotionally abused throughout my childhood and teenage years, as well as the physical pain from my beatings the pain that I continue to revisit now as an adult hurts more than one could imagine.
My training and self-development in becoming a counsellor myself, has helped me gain valuable insight into the world of an individual (no matter who they are).
My stepfather is like anyother parent, a person whom has learnt behaviours and beliefs and attitudes.
I have no angst anymore towards him, I certainly did not like his behaviour, but has a person he still has my respect...afterall we are all models of our parents...it is down to us to relearn our learnt behaviour, and work towards positive change within ourselves.

March 23, 2001
4:30 pm
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Ladeska
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LazyDay.....so glad you came here and had the courage to say something. You have to expect alot of different opinions here. The world is a jungle with all kinds of animals in it, so use discretion while reading the posts.

Alot of people practice abuse in whatever form because that's the way they were raised and they repeat history. It's not that they even do it consciously, they just do it because sometimes the child in front of them represents who they were and they are trying to resolve old wars within themselves by role-playing through you. Only thing is - they are the ones with the power this time. Fair? No, there's nothing fair about it. It's tragic, it stinks and children get horribly hurt by it and yes, you should say something about it. Speak it out, say it's not right and what can I do about it as far as it's toxic effect on "me". Good for you.

By you looking for answers and wanting healing - you're not going to go down the road that turns someone into a bitter person who will never acknowledge how they were hurt or that they have rights - except to be abusive themselves.

Asking questions and speaking up is really a very strong stance on your part and I commend you. Now you can begin to bring knowledge into your world and understand the many dimensions that are here - hidden, intertwined around so many things.

Parents sometimes project alot of things onto their children that they just never got around to solving or figuring out. It becomes a festering wound and they pick at it - through you. The negative things they aim at you - is usually what they think of themselves and you have to be smart enough to catch those statements in mid-air and go - these aren't "mine".

"People of the Lie" by Dr. Scott Peck is a very interesting book you might want to pick up. It's a potent book, so read it slowly. Life is a learning experience and there is so much for you to learn about the dynamics of what you have been experiencing. Knowledge is power.

March 23, 2001
7:01 pm
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gingerleigh
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One other perspective... parenting techniques have radically changed over the last 100 years. Up until a few decades ago, whipping a child was considered the norm. How do you think the phrase "Children should be seen and not heard" came from?

Parents tend to parent the way that their parents parented them. (Did you follow that?)

Let it be
Let it be
Let it be
Let it be
....

You can't fix them, and revenge will do you no good. Vent. Get it all out. It's OK to rage and complain and whine and get angry. Get rid of that energy, and then focus on healing yourself and loving yourself.

Listen to Jagged Little Pill, Alanis Morisette, and then listen to her album after that. Anger to forgiveness, it's a journey you'll need to take as well. Good luck and peace.

March 23, 2001
10:01 pm
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Alena
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Lazyday, how old are you? Are you an adult suffering from this upbringing or are you still a child in the midst of it? It's important to know where you are in this.

I know someone who was raised by a very strict father(maybe even verbally abusive), who was raised by HIS strict father, and so on and so on. Today, he uses it for a crutch. Refuses to forgive the dad(although now deceased)and every bad thing that happens to him is the fault of his father and his upbringing. It's very sad. He is close to 60 and it's pathetic. His BELIEF of how miserable his 17 years at home was has totally ruined the following43 years he has lived since then. If you are an adult, and you see your characteric shortcomings, fix them. Get help,, work on it, fix them. Go on with your life, in spite of your childhood.

If you are a child, try to do the right thing, as best you can. Speak to a counselor at school, find a really good adult confidante,(older sister, Aunt, Gramma,) and maybe look within to see if maybe, just maybe, you need to cut the parents some slack.

It's true, there are no instructions that come with raising a kid. Love is usually a good start. Good luck, take one day at a time and set a goal of self-improvement and self-love.

Keep us posted.

March 25, 2001
3:49 pm
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NESS
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I was emotionally abused as a child and have suffered from low self confidence,bad anxiety etc.For years I blamed my parents for the way I am but in time I realised I had to help myself .You cant change the past but you can change the future!

March 26, 2001
1:32 pm
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lazydazy
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OK, I realize that other people had it much worse than me growing up...but isnt that what this post is all about? You have a problem, you vent, you try to fix it. I'm trying to help myself right now, im just trying to understand things. Ok, Molly...i appreciate your input but there is a difference between sarcasm, wanting your kids to do great and excel and calling them "Stupid!", "you will never amount to anything!" and basically beating any self-esteem that they will ever have to the ground. If you stick up for that kind of parenting...i feel sorry for you and your children.

The problem is, Im 23 and I've been away from home for five years. I felt so good when I was away and I realize now it was because I got out of this mess. I was tired of people putting me down so I got out of this town and felt good and empowered for taking my own stance. Then some bad stuff happened and I got really depressed. I cant afford to live away from home, financially and im going back to school so I will have to be here for at least another year. My parents do not help me with tuition but they do help me with room and board right now. So Im back here around all this negativity in my house and its driving me crazy. Like im going back to school and my father is like...well, did you look into better schools, the school you are going to isnt that great. Whenever I do anything good, it isnt good enough. I get pissed off and im angry and there is all this resentfulness in my house that nobody EVER talks about, because nobody knows how to talk about their feelings. Its such a bad vibe. Plus im just completely depressed to begin with. I just know that I will explode soon, maybe its necessary...thanks for all the input..
P.S. White Oleander is a great book!

March 26, 2001
1:50 pm
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azza
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lazydazy...i guess we're in the same boat...but the difference is i only have this problem with my dad...i really can understand and imagine how you feel....it really hurts huh?
i really interested in this..maybe we can share some ideass then??see you later thenn....

March 26, 2001
2:14 pm
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Ladeska
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LazyDay.....It's so easy for people to say "get over it", especially if what you say - makes "them" feel uncomfortable about their own stuff. Words are so easy to say and oh so cheap. You have the right to your feelings. And it's a very difficult situation when you are back in it again after being away and knowing the "difference".

I realize that for monetary reasons you may be stuck in the situation you are in for the time being. I had the same circumstance many years ago and it was torture going back into it. What I didn't realize was - I had other choices. I ended up making having to just get out of dodge one day because I couldn't take it anymore and you may come to that very conclusion yourself. Because we have been trapped as a child in an unhealthy environment we tend to see ourselves as trapped as we grow older in situations. But, that's not always the case. It may required us to make some hard decisions, to be creative in a way we're not used to - but you have to ask yourself the question - what's more important here? Is it more important to accomplish my goals and endure this negativity that will touch and effect everything about me OR is it more important that I rearrange whatever I have to and propel myself out of this situation to where I have.....peace?

I learned early that everything has a price tag on it. It just depends on how you want to spend your energy. Do you want ot spend it treading water in all this muck and die inside a little every day or do you want to spend your energy really getting free of the torment and staying free?

Sometimes we just toy with cutting the strings that are a poisonous link into our very being, pumping in gallons of poison every day instead of going - NO, no more, regardless of what happens - I'm cutting the chord here and I'm doing it now!

Preferably a little planning and wisdom on your part needs to come into play with your choice to do this. But, all in all - you don't need this in your life anymore. I would postpone school or live with a friend or anything I had to do that was sane and safe - to stop this cycle for perpetually repeating itself.

I just walked one day. Had no idea what I was going to do. I quickly put my thinking cap on though and figured it out. But, the bottomline is - you have to want it to stop and by your own hand. They aren't going to stop. This is the way they are and as long as you put yourself in close range as a target - they are going to lash out at you. You can't change them, but you can move yourself - away from injury.

I completely understand where you are. You seek to understand the webwork that has held you in it's grasp for so long. We are reasoning people and we want to understand our pain and all the many facets of it. That's fine and you need to do this - over time. For now, you need to get out of that house.

March 26, 2001
4:36 pm
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Molly
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Thank you for not completely blasting my comments. No, I do not suggest or advocate calling people stupid,however, I think that today we have become a society of intollorant spoiled people, and need to be real clear on what abuse is. There are many whistle's being blown for what is discomfort vs abuse. I have spent to much of my life advocating for the caretaking of children, as well as the education of their parents. We grow, and change, some for the better, some for the worse. You appear to have learned a better way than your parents have, yet you returned. Even in your comments of your fathers prodding, are you sure you checked out things? Is this the best? He may not articulate the things in the way you want to hear them, he only knows what he knows, but to me this does not sound like abuse. Abuse would be and even this is loose, get your own apt, and slam the door. I believe Ladeska stated, there truly is a cost to pay for what ever in life, you just need to comprehend what your willing to pay. You struggle with a room mate work at McDonalds, and put off school for a year, or realize that although your parents, may appear to be "abusive" a very loose term, in their approach with their child but truly want the best for you?
I do have a daughter your age,and one younger, you can and should feel for them, as things have been difficult for us recently, as they have grown and formulated their opinions of me, and my actions. And, she has called me abusive, due to the fact that she in order to maintain her very expensive life style, was encouraged to work, when none of her friends had to. I could not afford to support her life style. Yet together, enabeled her to go to a University and live in one of the most beautiful expensive locations in California. Was that abuse, yes in her mind, it was a struggle, however, out of all the rich kids who choose to party while she was working, she now makes $40k a year with a work track record of 5 years on the same job, whilst 2 girls died, and the rest dropped out of the university. So, was my abuse a lesson on becomming a successful independent woman, or temporary pain, while rising to the occasion of her best? Mind you she also thinks that she is abused because she could only travel to Maui, during the summer. I just see to many people crying for help, crying of depression, crying because they have always had it easy, because society has given them an excuse, when many of us have had to overcome old fashioned abuse, beatings, sexual stuff,enslavement, as well as poverty, and real hard ships ie., homelessness welfare etc.
If indeed you have been abused, pardon my harshness, and you have my apology for your experience. If you are stuck, and looking for freedom, know the power of your mind, and take these words as words of encouragement.
Your parents will not change, they are who they are, and you are most likely an intelligent good person for their efforts. You have the power to own or disown their comments, and to take a stand when they say things that are hurtful. Please dad, don't call me stupid, after all I am your daughter, how could I be stupid. There are ways to politely draw your boundry lines. Look for things within your family dynamics that were positive, vs feeding the negative possibilities. Difficult times make for strong people, sure we get depressed, but if we feed the depression with excuses, we are just more depressed. Think about the dog with three legs, does he really realize that he is handicaped? Words are things, and we need to be real careful how we use them. You are an adult now, no time any more for parental blame, move on, and love them for who and what they are, they don't owe you anything. harsh but true. This is what these threads are for, support, and that is truly my intent, but I will not enable. p.s. as a side bar, we usually marry the parent we are most incomplete with, so do your work, or you just might marry some one like dad. 🙂

March 26, 2001
5:12 pm
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Ladeska
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The thing is though.....we have to "do our work" by giving our feelings their due and having a safe place wherein to do it. Everyone is different, coming from a different perspective, with different abilities of coping, different personas, different life styles, cultures, backgrounds, etc. I have found that none of us can "preach" to one another and get anywhere except to have a deaf ear turned to us, which will in effect, shut out all good and bad advice together in one big "slam" of the door. We all have our hurts and everyone - even the parents - have rights. (smile) The thing is, we've just started talking about what's been going on with mankind ever since we've been here. We don't know how to affirm, listen without defending, talk without attacking, knowing the difference between good discipline and abuse, and how to have personal boundaries.

We've become oversaturated in our society as of late - regarding everyone's rights. Now we have this war going on as to who's rights are more important than who's? As if it were a competition of some sort. Um, no.......there's no blue ribbon contest here. We are very tired of hearing all this talk about abuse, so now we've had our "airing" session and society is ready to lock it all back up again and go round and round in another circle. Look at history and you'll see - this isn't the first time we've come up upon the cycle of abuse with children. We are in the throws now of becoming cynical and desynsetized because we're so tired of hearing about it in the news, talk shows, etc. Yeah, yeah, we've talked about it, we've all had it rough, so what, enough of all this already.....

But, the issue remains and the question begs to be asked - why do we become predatory when it comes to our young? Verbal abuse is just as murderous as if you picked up a loaded weapon and used it. More so I think, because it stays with a person all their life and digs at them from the inside out. Being a successful, healthy and peaceful person isn't always about making alot of money and being approved of by our peers / family. It has it's place, but if it rules us - we are more than likely still trying desperately to "please" rather than daring to be pleasing to...... ourselves. Real peace doesn't have to bark or demand attention or defend it's actions. It just is. Sometimes we find our peace by bringing the entire house down in order that we may rebuild it a brick at a time - so that it indeed is "ours" and we know each brick intimately by heart.

March 27, 2001
5:48 pm
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lewis
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lazydazy

u remember when u didn't live there? were u happy then? i guess u were. i'm in a similar situation. i know that i have to hold on and be patient. you will move out again and get on with your life. imagine it all and it shall happen.
hang in there.

March 28, 2001
10:19 am
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Cici
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The Japanese have a concept of space that Americans have never really grasped. When you live in such a highly populated area, with riace paper walls no less, it's hard ot get privacy and an American would go crazy and kill someone. My sister taught me about this.

It's mental space, a place you go to in your mind. It can be wherever or whenever, but you must be alone in your image and try to piture the sounds, sights and smells, and textures in the environment of your image. That will give you some breathing room. You can feel emotions freely, or feel relaxed.

Also ask yourself, now that you are an adult, what is it about how they treat you or what they say to you that makes you so upset? It cuts you to the heart, but is that because you allow it to affect you?

I was always envious of my older sister. Whenever my Mom was emotionally abusive to her, she would laugh at Mom! My sister woudl say Mom looked and acted ridiculous. It really deflated my Mom, and it contributed to the emotional well-being of my sister, who was my protector when we were little.

I wish I could do that. The best I have attained is to take my Mom's cruel criticism with a grain of salt and some gentle humor. That's my defense mechanism when it comes to diffusing tension. I make jokes and pal around and make light.

For a while it was so hard. I took everything to heart and I was super-sensitive. But at least now I can be with my Mom and it's fun. I can laugh at or with her. We don't have to cart in all the resentment and hurt from the past because all that does is spoil any fun youcould possibly have.

March 28, 2001
11:59 am
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Molly
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Cici,
I think that is part of the growing up process. We get to the point one day and there is this ah ha experience. Ok so the moms did all that they knew to do. Sure there were better moms, and dads out there, always a better way, but we got what we got. Its our job as adults to make peace with in our selves look at the good, and shed the rest. Our only option is to receive some sort of gain in the negativity. The only gain I see, is to utilize the the negative experience as some sort of excuse for stagnation, or depression, or stuckness.
My own daughters for example, it was hard to hear their words, but on the other hand, I must admit that I was proud of the fact that they felt so secure to speak so frankly, and to celebrate the fact that they had the confidence in them selves to be independent. Sure it hurt, but the other side of the coin, is that they could have bought into what ever they conceived as BS, for some sort of material gain, as I see my step sons doing. But the spouse co-signs their BS out of guilt, I am sure, and spoon feeds them, vs allowing them to become independent. Its going to be a battle again some day between us when the economy changes, which it is going to. We all must grow up sooner or later, the lessons are always there. But as long as our society continues to enable forces that do not support discipline, or structure, and continues in the direction of socialism, what are you going to do? The strong shall rise, and the weak shall grow in masses. hey another tune, There's gonna be a revolution!!

March 28, 2001
6:38 pm
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Ladeska
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You know guys.....when all is said and done it really boils down to the fact that when you get to a certain age of being able to function on your own - you have to take your bag of stuff and be responsible for it. In the middle of all that we are supposed to learn about boundaries if no one really mirrored that, or allowed it or taught us how. And, in the middle of all that we have to bring home the bacon, whip it up in the pan, make sure we look adorable to the outside world because we know how people talk! Then we have to put on our best faces for those we are close to even though we haven't acquired good communication skills for that - so we "stuff", get wounded and end up smiling and nodding, picking our scabs and studying our navel profusely!

Is it any wonder ANY OF US ARE HERE!!!! LOL!!! Jeepers!! I think we all should just pick a day and call it INSANITY DAY and go out in costume, let off fireworks, toilet paper people's yards, streak through the parks at midnight and pop a cork at 3 am in the morning as we're going down the main drag mooning everyone. Whatcha think??? I think it's a miracle that none of us have BEEN LOCKED UP YET!!! Well, actually I was.....but they couldn't stand me either.......let me out....

Let's just have a group Hug shall we? Warts and all - we ARE - all the animals in the jungle and Alice in Wonderland ain't got a darned thing over on us!!! (don't mind me....just blowing off steam....had a maddening day over here......smile....just figured we could all use a little humor!) We are just fine......anyone that is forming questions and willing to find answers....is a-okay in my book!

March 28, 2001
7:37 pm
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Alena
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Ladeska! Funny you should say that!!!
I had one of those maddening days myself, just came back from tp-ing the neighbors yards, threw some cherry bombs in the restroom at the doctor's office and I'm streaking about 10:30pm instead of midnight because I usually fall asleep around 11.

And yes, all my warts are hanging out,

Big huge hugs...........

March 28, 2001
9:00 pm
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janes
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Me too....another day in the salt mines.

School's would be great if they wouldn't let grown up in ...just us kids.

Abuse....Lots of us been there... it's tough.

I'm down with alena and Ldeska..(and Molly and the rest but they have bags on their heads.)

Be yourself, keep youslef value yourslef..

No one will d it unless you do.

March 28, 2001
11:18 pm
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Ladeska
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Janes and Alena - Right on!!! I dunno, I think I'm a social terrorist, should I make a new thread!!! Maybe it's our job to WAKE PEOPLE UP!!! And let the universe know that we're individuals, we matter and regardless of what the "herd deems as normal" - hey, maybe we were aliens and dropped here to view society on this planet and report back to the mother ship! I keep checking my transformer, think the darned thing has blown a major fuse or something....wondering if they just forgot about me or have me "on hold"! RUDE!!! (smile) Hey,if we can't laugh at ourselves, love ourselves in the midst of our journey - whaz tha point? I think we're pretty amazing myself. We're still here, that counts for somethin' doesn't it? Tribe....it's all about finding our tribe and that's why we're here,isn't it? Trying to find "home", where we fit in, who will identify with us and not go - OH MY GOD, I would NEVER say or feel or think such things.... yeah, right, you just don't want anyone to know that you do!!!! It's all about being a human bean. it's okay if our slip shows, if we wear our underwear over our pants. Eventually....we figure it out and some of us...launch forward with incredible speed. Seize the Day!

March 29, 2001
12:02 pm
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Molly
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Tribe,
Well, the bag is over my head, and its plastic, and I'm still alive, they lied. Can I borrow a few cherry bombs? Don't know where to find them here. I tried that streaking thing, but my boobs wouldn't stay over my shoulders, I couldn't jog either, to much friction. All the dogs started barking, it was just to much so I went home. No wonder I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. I have had this bad mood brewing for the last few days, and trying to shake it. Some where I have misplaced my empathy!! I have that what's it all about Alphie thing going on, its hard to keep up that winning attitude with no immediate gratifacation, damn it. I reopened my peace corp package, and tossed it, figured I would find more complaints doing that, than this. So, gee guess I just have to go seize the day, barf................ Wish you guys were all closer, could use a friend to play with.

March 29, 2001
2:54 pm
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Ladeska
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Oh Mol.....your empathy will return......maybe the empathy you need to have is "for you" and not for the world at large. When's the last time you hugged yourself? You're pretty darned cute ya know? Or do you? Sometimes, I think we throw so much of ourselves into other people, into the world that we don't take time to paint our toenails a pretty shade of pink, or to just up and go to Baskin Robbins and get what we really die to have, or call and ask a friend to just go dancing with you because - you just like to go.....know what I'm saying to you? What have you done lately that says - I love you, Molly? You're hyper-vigilant, huh? (smile)

March 29, 2001
4:47 pm
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Alena
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September 24, 2010
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Molly,sorry, I only have 2 cherry bombs left and I'm saving them for my husband ...........heh, heh, heh.

Just kidding..................

Anyway, don't you just hate it when you wake up and you know that dark cloud is sitting right above your head, lurking.? You can't see it, but damn, you can sure feel it. I hate it when that happens! It's like, I don't wanna do anything, don't talk to me, I FEEL heavier, like something is really weighing me down. And when it stays for a few days or even a week, I'm toast.

Usually, in the last 8 years, I feel pretty optimistic for the most part.
And Ladeska, it seems the older I get the more confident I feel in believing just what you're saying. I can't believe the stuff that comes out of my mouth, where years ago I would have been "Oooh, I can't say that, or wear that, or feel that way, ....what will people think?"
I pretty much have lost by about 50% in the last few years. Sometimes I wonder about it and think hmm, maybe I should be more careful, then I think, NAHHH, I'm okay. As long as I'm not rude or hurting anyone, I don't mind being different from anyone.

I've always been different though. But now I know I've been GOOD different, it's the rest of the world who has to get in step with ME. ...or not. But I march on.....

Whoa, I sound awfully confident and self-assured, must be the wine with dinner. (Haven't had the dinner yet, just the wine... 🙂

Rock on "tribe"..

March 29, 2001
4:52 pm
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Alena
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Forum Posts: -1
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September 24, 2010
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By the way Molly, get that plastic bag off of your head. It's okay to lose your empathy sometimes, I think ya need to deplete it sometimes before you can get it replenished.

The thing that throws me head first into my absolute depression pit is anything to do with my sons. Then I get that Alphie blues also, "what the hell did I do all that for???? When do I get appreciated?....yada, yada, yada.........." so I know. Gotta keep on keepin on though.......this too shall pass.

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