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Does she has the right to do that?
July 26, 2007
9:14 pm
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Rasputin
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I've been working with nice people for quite a while...till something happened on the horizon that broke the ice.

As it's the case, even when you work with nice people there is always someone...a lil bizarre and that weirdo person just appeared. She is a director in our accounting dept. comes right after the head of our accounting dept.

I usually arrive at work at 8h30 sharp in most cases. Even when I happen to arrive 5mins late, I tend to compensate by taking more time from my lunch break and working thru that 5min which I missed in the morning which is quite fair.

Last week, I arrived at work at 8h30 sharp, Usually I pass by the kitchen which is on the 1st floor to fetch some milk for my coffee and then head to the 3rd floor where I work. So bc of this, I happened to arrive to my office at 8h 33 minutes. This director, even tho she's NOT my supervisor, came toward me and reprimanded me for arriving late & asked me to be in the office at 8h30 sharp. When I told her that I am usually a punctual person and even when due to traffic I happen to be late 3-5 mins, I usually compensate by adding it to my lunch break and working thru those missing mins. She said no I was not supposed to do that and should always be there 8h30.

Today, I told my therapist about it, my therapist advised me to tell my supervisor about it; otherwise this woman will take advantage of her position and continue to abuse me and rule over me.

What do you think? Is my therapist right? Should I tell my supervisor about what that director did to me and about her reprimanding me just b/c I was in the building at 8h30, but since I had to pass by the kitchen to get some milk for my coffee and then go upstairs to my office on the 3rd floor to be in my office at 8h30? Does this manageress, who is NOT my supervisor has the right to reproach me like that? Should I tell my supervisor about what that manageress did toward me, as my therapist suggested? Mind you that woman/Manageress is NOT my supervisor, yet she behaves as if she were!

July 26, 2007
9:29 pm
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Rasputin
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Sorry folks typo in my thread title:

Does this manageress, who is not my supervisor, HAVE the right to reprimand/reproach me for arriving 3 mins late???

July 26, 2007
9:39 pm
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It No Longer Matters
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Bitsy

July 26, 2007
9:40 pm
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sorry meant to say no

Bitsy

July 26, 2007
10:59 pm
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Hi Rasputin,

I completely agree with your therapist. I have managed large crews of people for many years and have seen people like you are talking about. If you don't call her on her sh__ she will continue untill u have a real problem. I think the advise to go to your supervisor and admit you were a couple of minutes late is the mature grown up thing to do and to let the supervisor no that this other manager type person has oversteped her bounds. Establishing a boundry for a power hungry control freak is totaly esential. If you take it today you'll be taking it forever. stand your ground. Don't mean to be so prechy just my opinion.

jv63

July 26, 2007
11:31 pm
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_anonymous
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I think you made a mistake this woman is not repremanding you she is harassing you. Which is usually against most company policies. The question that begs an answer is where is this woman supposed to be working? And why is she out of her assigned work area having a conversation with you? If it is not specified in her job description that she was hired to be your supervisor than she needs to be repremanded as well for being away from her assigned work area. If this unproductive worker made the mistake of approaching me in an authoritave fashion I simply would have replied "I am sorry but you are not authorized to speak to me about such matters" then I would have told her she was dismissed and walked away. Then I would write a memo to her boss about harassment and finding this employee outside of her assigned work area and hoped that this persons supervisor would assure you that this person would never come up and impersonate a supervisor ever again. After all this employees behavior is a wast of company time. Good LUCK!

July 27, 2007
12:50 am
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lovinglife
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I have a different take on it...but first if this happened to me I too would be questioning her actions and a little annoyed that she overstepped her bounds by doing the job of my supervisor and as well as the fact that I got called on something which really would be more of my issue in the whole thing.

However my take on it is that I personally would not make an issue of it to my supervisor for one because technically Ras, you were 3 mns late to work… It doesn’t matter that you are in the building at 8:30 but matters that you are at your job area ready to start your day/shift at 8:30. Also look at it as if you were late 3mns each day for a week because of innocently getting milk for your coffee…that would equal 15mns of the company’s time you are being paid for that you did not actual work, or a whole hour+ if it was consistently done every day for a month…ah that would be over 12 hours a year!! And if everyone in the office did it…coming from the company’s aspect that’s a lot of unproductive hrs being paid out.

The other reason why I wouldn’t make an issue of it is because I would have been thankful (after I got over initially being called on my actions –embarrassed some- got to save face- then pissed cause it wasn’t my supervisor but maybe someone I thought was getting off on a power trip. But in the end I would have just been thankful that it wasn’t my supervisor and would look at it as a heads up that someone is frowning on my actions (sorry but once again- I personally think you’re in the wrong here as 3mns late getting into the office is simply - late).

I worked with someone who always is late-just a few minutes here a few minutes there…but regardless she is known for being late. I’m sure she doesn’t see anything wrong with it but to me and perhaps a few other co-workers find it annoying as all hell. And honestly it’s been mentioned in passing by others- maybe an eye roll when she walks in or some under the breaths comment are made. AND tell ya, one of us would be doing her a favor by confronting her before our supervisor got wind of it…to me that would be worse than being called on my actions by someone else at work.

Oh and by the way here : ) ….I’m known at work for not one of those people who arrive at work early, but I’m literally right on time, right on time or like 30 secs early which I proudly point out when that happens…“Hey, I’m early today!!” And then ALWAYS about 15 mns after my shift starts need to use the bathroom or do a few things I should have been doing BEFORE my shift started. Guess I just learned something out of this - I need to start arriving early for work..would feel alot better too than feeling rushed all the time.

Good luck. Now if this woman continues to start nit picking on you THEN I would talk to my supervisor without a doubt. She may have not come across in the best manner when she talked to you..but in my eyes as a co-worker and having once also been a supervisor...SHE is in right..not in the right about talking to you (its not her job to do so) but in the right that you were late. She just may have saved you from an actual reprimand.

July 27, 2007
1:16 am
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fantas
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Ras,

Does your supervisor know that you are not one to waste time at work and that you always try to make up for lost time? In the past, have other directors taken it upon themselves to reprimand people from other departments or is this a first?

I think that if she is not in your department and you all don't work together, it was inappropriate for her to come dierectly to you because by doing so, she undermined your supervisor. The issue isn't even with you at this point, it's about her taking it upon herself to supervise other people's work. The respectful thing would have been to go to your supervisor which may have caused you more trouble. She could still go to your immediate supervisor.

I think you should document the incident and cc a copy to your supervisor or at the very least have it in your file just in case she has something up her sleeve. I hope this makes sense...

July 27, 2007
3:39 am
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lovinglife
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fantas~ I agree with you that this person undermined Ras's supervisor...the woman should have taken what she viewed as 'an issue' to the department supervisor bypassing her comments to Ras. It wasn't her place to say what she did. Kinda making me wonder now if this woman also doesn't have an issue with the Sup...perhaps thinking the sup isn't doing her job why she felt the need to confront Ras. Just some thoughts.

However, once again coming from a different perspective here... I see the woman in question as part of the company's management team - she was not just another co-worker (now THAT I would really have issue with) but someone with power in the company - and sounding like having more power than a department supervisor and who was simply really annoyed that someone came in late - possibly becoming so annoyed to finally say something...why she come across so strongly.

Ras you stated that this wasn't an isolated incident-- Now not trying to cut you down in anyway- just learning here about myself as my actions where I currently work are not always the most professional when I think about it... but I read your reasoning (as I myself have done that) as justification about making up those missed minutes late to work by taking the time out of your breaks. Question: Is this something that you cleared with your supervisor beforehand or took upon yourself as being OK? If it wasn't cleared with the Supervisor, my advice at the moment would be to just take this all as a learning lesson to grow as a person- as a professional AS WELL as from here on out be mindful if this director starts actually harassing you WHICH THEN I would take to my supervisor without hesitation.

Now did the director of accounting overstep her role- you bet without question. But should Ras make an issue out of it?? (sounds like the issue is really more about the Supervisor not being respected by the Director). I just don't think so, speaking for myself ONLY… I would take it as a learning lesson to be on time to work, making sure its early enough to take care of those things that help my day go smoother - like starting the shift with an empty bladder (a little personal problem of mine!) or having already had my morning coffee ( I love creamer in my coffee too!)... to ultimately gain the respect (in at least this one area) of those I work around including the director of whatever.

I also see the therapists point somewhat about "advised me to tell my supervisor about it; otherwise this woman will take advantage of her position and continue to abuse me and rule over me" ESP if that issue has been an issue in the patients life - perhaps why the person is in therapy in the first place. However it shouldn’t be assumed (that thinking for myself has been something that has always gotten me in trouble) that the woman is just power hungry and will start to abuse someone with the intent to rule over them. I think better advice at the moment, giving the info provided, would have been to ask: “First lets look at what is your responsibility/role is in this… do you come in late often, even if its just a few minutes and even if its just on occasion? Are there things that you can change about what you are doing so it would not give a way in for someone to make a confrontation like what happened?” or something on those lines... And THEN from there - look at it if the problem/issue could be resolved by changing something within or if truly the problem/issue is with someone else...THEN do what needs to be done either way to resolve it, to learn from it, to grow as a person from it.

My feeling (and what I am working on -not there yet why I’ve found this thread of interest) is that sometimes we need to just step back and take responsibility for our own actions and not point the finger at someone else by making a bigger issue out of it (not saying you did this Ras) as that is when we can truly grow, we can get away from those who can, do, and will take advantage of our vulnerabilities.

July 27, 2007
6:56 am
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Rasputin
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Thanks All for your responsese. I honestly stand to what most of you said, as well as what my therapist said, I prefer to talk to my supervisor about it...take her aside and tell her about that director's behaviour. My therapist told me arrving at work 3 mins late is no big deal, we all do it, that's what she told me. I told her that I make up for it by working those missing mins in my lunch time.

She also told me something else, that this woman will not change and the best policy I have to do to deal with her next time she disagrees with me is.....YES YOu're right. She told me to never argue with such people. They always want to prove that they are right and others are wrong. What A GOOD tip which even tho I already know, it's amazing why we don't practice it with these bossy folks.

Today I will take my supervisor aside and talk to her and tell her. I really prefer this technique, otherwise, this woman will take advantage of my peaceful and pacific behaviour and would probabaly think that I am a doormat or afraid or something which I'm NOT.

I will keep you posted when I get back. Have a wonderful day All!!!

July 27, 2007
4:07 pm
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ScaredinMichigan
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Ras,

You can blame the director or anyone you want...the truth is, that YOU could have avoided it all if you had been on time. If you have a job that you are supposed to be there at 8, then you should be there at 8:00...NOT 8:03.

I COMPLETELY disagree with your therapist on this one...and it makes me thoroughly question her ability to do her job. She is not making you take responsibility for YOUR actions.

It isn't about you making it up at lunch or anything else. If you are at work when you are scheduled to be there...this stuff wouldn't happen. This truly, IMO, is an issue that YOU need to think about. NOT your therapist, or your supervisor. It truly shouldn't take either one of those people to know that you were the one that could have fixed this issue.

But, that is just my opinion.

July 27, 2007
4:19 pm
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risingfromtheashes
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ras -

is the director higher up than your supervisor? I am assuming she is.

based on that - usually those in higher authorities have EVERY right to override the authority of those underneath them.

they have EVERY right to reprimand an employee if their own supervisor is not present or not handling it themselves.

I have a general manager and then the owner above him. If the owner of the company walks in and sees something amiss, he is NOT responsible for going to his general manager and having him handle it...he simply handles it right then and there....and then lets the general manager know what happened.

I am sorry, but I think the director did have authority to warn you about your lateness. And I don't think it matters that you work over lunch time either.

The bottom line is - your company and coworkers depend on you to be at your desk and ready for work at 8 a.m. sharp. And if you aren't, you are letting down your coworkers and your company.

I have flex time - it doesn't matter what time I show up. My BF does not. We carpool. Occasionally we are a few minutes late. He gets reprimanded, I don't. His coworkers, our customers, and our business depends on him being here and in the truck, ready to drive at 8 a.m....if we are even 5 minutes late, it throws everything off. He may make up for it at lunch and stay late in the day, BUT, it didn't fix the tardiness in the morning.

If the director is NOT over your supervisor - forgive me.

Also - I am a supervisor - and if I see a worker doing something wrong - I have the power and authority to step in and handle it as I see fit. Sometimes it's a situation best left to their own supervisor, and I simply report it, instead of handling it myself...but if it's something that needs immediate attention - I am allowed to handle it.

I would assume most companies are like this.

July 27, 2007
4:25 pm
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rising,

Do you teach lessons in being tactful...cause I think I need one.

I said the same thing for the most part...but I think I could use a lesson in etiquette here...

July 27, 2007
4:40 pm
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risingfromtheashes
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mich...I dunno - some would say **I** need lessons in it too.

I think I just like to talk alot more...so I get more wordy...so it comes out more tactful by default.

You do just fine kid - don't fool yourself!

July 27, 2007
4:48 pm
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atalose
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I agree with ScaredinMichigan, I can't beleive your therapist didn't look into your responsibility but rather pushed the blame.

What if every employee were to arrive 3 minutes late each day? Is that acceptable? Does the company have flex hours or are they expecting you to begin work at 8:30?

There is one woman I work with who is always late but justifies it by making up her time at lunch. Making up the time is not the point the point is being on time. It's not fair to all your co-workers who do arrive on time and are ready to start on time.

In the chain of command a director is above a supervisor and does have the right to acknowledge an employee arriving late. Should this director have gone to your supervisor, not based on this being a fist time this director witnessed you being late. If this person see's you again arriving late I would bet they will go to your supervisor. I think talking to your supervisor ahead of time is a good idea. If your supervisor is ok with you arriving late then that supervisor needs to make that clear to the dept. head.

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

July 27, 2007
4:59 pm
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lovinglife
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rising,

Do you teach lessons in being *concise...cause I think I need one.

Now I said the same thing for the most part as Michigan...but I think I could a lesson in not being *so wordy here...!!!

I am not mocking precious Michy here-(Love ya Michigan!) ... I just used her question to you because it become so fitting for me too but in a different way...Mich we can take lessons together : )

Rising you just have this way...

July 27, 2007
5:18 pm
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LL, this is the exact message I received from a supervisor when I worked in construction.

"It doesn’t matter that you are in the building at 8:30 but matters that you are at your job area ready to start your day/shift at 8:30."

Likewise, when it was time to go home, I was preparing to leave 5 min or so before I walked out the door. I didn't stop working at 5:00. If I'm ready to work at 8:00, I can also be ready to leave at 5:00. Fair's fair, right?

H-gal

July 27, 2007
6:56 pm
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I have a different take as well. It depends on the office. I work for the Govt. We all have different shifts and technically supposed to be there say 8:30, 7:30, 8:00. But honestly nobody in the office watches each other times. Three minutes late and that would be seriously laughed at. I have worked in many office type jobs and nobody was ever scrutinized to be there on the dot. There are plenty of time when something came up right when your shift is over and takes you over 5 minutes over your shift. Same with lunch hour. Sometimes you eat at your desk and others you go out and you need more time. As long as the work gets done and you are doing a good job 3 minutes in of no consequence. But it depends on what kind of office you work in. Some offices have to work like a clock at a certain time. But if this happened in my office if someone mentioned to an employee about their time, it is big no-no. IF you are habitual person who come in more than 10 or 15 and every day and don't make it up somehow then of course the supervisor is going to speak up but ultimately is the supervisor and the supervisor that needs to talk to you if and only if it is a problem. If you work in a flexible type office then this person needs to mind her own business and not watch other people's time. In today's work with the commute's and children etc. it is nearly impossible to be exact on the dot time. Flexibility and ocassional lateness should be allowed. Especially since you said you make it up.

I have been on both sides of the fence being a supervisor. I would never reprimand anyone for 3 minutes of lateness. That is ridiculous, we are all grown people. What do you do set a timer? It is really up to the type of office you work in. Not every office is run like clock. Just because you show up on the dot and stay to end of the dot doesn't make you a good work.

If you work in the type of office I do, we value quality of quantity. We are all hard workers and when crunch time is needed, we put the effort in and if it lax time then we are lenient. Why today my supervisor let me go 1/2 early. He has seen that I stayed in during lunch and he sees that I have been working hard.

It is not worth the stress of having people criticize you for being 3 minutes late especially if you are usually reliable. And knowing you, you are.

Besides having that coffee and milk that you have estabished as your daily routine allows you to concentrate at your job; otherwise you are thinking about having that coffee and milk had you not had it at your desk.

I would seriously laugh at 3 minutes being late. We do not work in that type of atmosphere where I work, and it is a wonderful office. Best office I have ever worked in. It truly is great for me.

I am positive your supervisor has a different view of you and knows what to expect of you. That is what really counts, that the management is satisfied with you, not the time watchers.

I personally do not watch other time. It is not my business. Nor do I make it mine.

July 27, 2007
7:14 pm
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Guys...well, I spoke with my supervisor today and I am SO glad I did. I told her last wednesday I was in the building at 8h30 sharp and bc I pass by the kitchen to fetch some milk for my coffee and then went upstairs, 3mins passed so I was at my workstation 8h33 instead of 8h30, that director came over and reprimanded me even tho she was NOT my supervisor.

My supervisor said that that woman did the same thing with so many folks in our dept for arriving a few mins late and that I was not alone in that. Then I asked her if she had the right to do that, she said no and that she was gonna talk to her.
Then I asked my supervisor if that woman was a good person....then I aksed her to answer me HONESTLY. I told my supervisor I know it's not professional to speak negatively of someone, but I want an HONEST answer. She said very sweetly: " No, I don't find her a good person."

Whooooooooowhoooooooooooooo. Birds of a feather flock together. Guess what, this woman is not even is a manager she is "Assistant" to whatever, but she is NOT a manager.

MY supervisor is responsible of me when/if I do anything wrong. PERIOD!!!

July 27, 2007
7:17 pm
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And I also want to add to my comment that I hope you do not allow others to make you feel bad about 1) being 3 minutes late, 2) the therapist you have chosen, 3) talking down to you as if you were a child and telling you that you let people down for being 3 minutes late. It doesn't seem to match the crime here and doesnt seem compassionate or fair in my opinion. You know in your heart what type of person you are, that is what counts, not those that try to tear you down. Good luck Ras!

July 27, 2007
7:21 pm
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Kudos (((Taj))), Love you!!!!

July 27, 2007
7:25 pm
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fantas
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Ras, I am so glad you got that settled. Congratulations for standing up for yourself and getting clarification on office protocol. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

July 27, 2007
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I am not the best worder in the world. My problem is mostly in my typing. I did not like how you were being picked on. And the outcome, exactly how I predicted because afterall you were 3 minutes late and it has everytihng to do with who you are as a person, and what you provide to this office. That certainly overrides pettiness of 3 minutes. You have to have cream with your coffee beside? The day just would not go right otherwise. I hope you keep the therapist and I hope you continue this good rapport with your supervisor. Having and compassionate, supportive supervisor that appreciates you for your efforts is worth its weight in gold, believe me. I totally believe in team work. And pettiness can totally ruin team work.

July 27, 2007
7:39 pm
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(((Fan & Taj)))) Thank you both for your love, support and kind words. God bless you both. I can always count on you here on AAC!!!!

July 27, 2007
8:36 pm
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lovinglife
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The title to this thread and the posing situation would make for a great ethics question/discussion... It’s been interesting to read the takes on the sitz…

What it boils down to is what is right for some may not be right for others, what one see’s as being responsible others may view differently. b> And answers to these questions ultimately come from our individual worldview
(*interpretations of our experiences that are greatly influenced by upbringing and cultural norms.)

What pulled me onto this thread is a personal question (for my own growth) in that when/where do (I) start to take responsibility for (my) own actions instead of say for example challenging an authority figure or pointing blame towards someone else when (my) own actions could very well be at the basis of what went wrong.

I stand by all that I wrote. Though the ending to this situation is not my reasoning/questions/thoughts/input on the matter and that it went against the majority of opinion, (for some reason I really like that!) for me the bottom line is…tomorrow when I go to work…I am showing up 10 mns early. Think I just may turn over a new leaf in that area.

Good luck to you Ras on future dealings with the person who gave you (me) a heads up in more ways than one(my worldview) or unfairly gave you a reprimand (worldview of a few others). Thank you for putting yourself out there (starting this thread) as I learned a lot…I hope that you got out of this thread as much as I did. What this journey is all about. : )

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