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Destiny...
July 28, 2008
12:59 am
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In the other thread you said this,

"For everyone who supports them they take take a piece of them and that is less time that their supporters have to work on themselves or take care of their kids."

Do you feel that way about support in general or just when it comes to alcoholism? Because if that is the case, everyone of us here is taking from the others. These threads are titled "support". We are all here looking for support, because we need that. It is something that we should be able to expect in a place such as this. Yet, you don't see it as acceptable to expect it in a marriage??

No wonder so many don't last. We can expect or hope for it from people that we don't know, and have never met, yet we can't expect it from our spouses?? I think you are wrong, and if you can't give it in a marriage, I think you are wrong. If you can't expect it in a marriage, I don't think it is right.

I don't see it as codependent to ask for your spouse to support you. If you do, that is ok. I just don't understand the way you are looking at things. Yes, we are responsible for ourselves, no doubt about that. We are the only ones that we can control. BUT, I believe that our support can help people and it should.

Would you say that the support that you recieve here has helped you? I would, and I believe that most here would. It can make or break people. I believe that we are responsible to our families mostly to be supportive. Our children, and our spouses. Yes, we need to take care of ourselves first, but if you don't love them enough to support them in their time of need, I think that it is wrong.

If she didn't have an alcohol problem herself, common courtesy would have said that supporting him was the fair way to handle this. You can't expect anything that you aren't willing to give.

July 28, 2008
11:58 am
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sweet peas- A co-dependent is someone who is dependent on another persons problems. The classic scenerio is the codependent alcoholic/drug addict relationship. They fit together like a lock and key. Any type of interaction between these two types is dysfunctional. Neither person benefits from the other one. The dynmanics are destructive.

As long as the codependent is involved with the addict/alcoholic they do not focus on themselves, their kids, jobs, hobbies, interests or life in general.

The support that a codependent provides for an addict/alcoholic is commonaly referred to as enabling.

Why? Because every time you do something for them is one less thing they will do for themselves which translates into more time and money they have to dedicate towards getting drunk or high. Every second they spend on themselves and every penny they spend paying their own way is one less second or penny they have to spend on drugs and alcohol.

Part of moving away from codependency and moving towards getting healthy is trying to figure out why you think it is your responsiblity to be involved with an addict or an alcoholics issues. It is not up to you to decide if they should use drugs or drink. It is not up to you to clean up their wreakage.

An addict an alcoholic always blame someone for their problems. If they drink or use its cause someone gave them the stuff or pissed them off. Its all bull shit. Part of their twisted sense of reality. The only thing that works is confrontation and putting the responsiblity for what they choose to do back on them.

Support doesnt work with an addict or alcoholic consequences do. Most of them will not quit until the price gets high. Like when someone walks out on them or they get arrested.

No one who is involved with an alcoholic or addict is enjoying the relationship. If you dont believe me then read a recent thread Ma Strong wrote about her neighber. Or any of the other threads here for that matter. They all wreak of the path of destruction that these people leave behind in the lives of those that have helped them. The road is littered with these addicts and their wreakage. There the ones who messed up their lives their the ones who need to clean it. They dont need to be dumping the responsiblity of their rehab, jail fines, lost jobs, spouses, kids on others. All one can do is ask them what they plan on doing to clean up their own mess. Then wish them a lot of luck.

Yes I would like to help any alcoholic or drug addict that wanders into my life out by showing them the exit door to my life.

July 28, 2008
12:15 pm
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Again, Destiny, in some parts of your post, we will have to agree to disagree. And that is ok.

I do understand a lot of what you are saying, as I am a product of two alcoholic parents. I still suffer from that, though I am working to overcome the past that I lived through.

In some aspects, I woke up this morning angry at my father, and voivod. (after our "conversation" last night) My anger at my father was a little scary to me, and probably long overdue.

At the time that my parents were separated, I was too young to comprehend that my mothers alcohol issue was just as bad if not worse than my fathers. I understand that it is impossible for one alcoholic to help another in some aspects. However, many people make it with the help of AA meetings. Just as those of us who suffer from codependency, or any other "sickness". We make it with the help of each other.

I don't feel that the destruction caused by alcoholics is any more severe than the destruction of someone with BPD, codependency, narcissism, or any other thing. I think that we all deserve support.

That said, the destruction that we face in ANY of those situations, we would be better off to show them the exit door to our life? I don't think that is true.

Even the murderer needs support, and the child molester. That doesn't mean that it has to be you or I, and we do have to know what we can and can't do. In addition, we can only try so hard. As humans, I believe that we all deserve support, and to be supported.

Again, I am not trying to "fight" as it was referred to. I hope you understand that. We have the right to disagree. I have been able to see some of your point. Mine will be a little different and that is ok, my relationship to this situation will allow me to feel differently and see it differently than you or someone else might. That doesn't make you wrong, or myself. Just different, and that is ok.

July 28, 2008
2:23 pm
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The bottom line is we need to love ourselves more than we do the alcoholic, NPD or whatever so that we do not allow these people in our lives to begin with. And if we do by mistake to be healthy enough to disconnect. All that support and connecting with them is nothing more than co-dependent crap.

This is an annoymouse site we are not personally involved with anyone that we offer advice to. They do not live in our homes and are not around our children or living out of our pocket books. Different kind of support.

Being that you come from alcoholics you would find yourself more comfortable in the company of dysfunctional people than a healthy person would. Your radar is all screwed up. This is all you know.

What I want to ask is what benefit has it been to you dealing with your parents, husband and any other dysfunctional people that you have allowed in your life?

When it comes to the point that you have the police and social workers involved doesnt that tell you that you are making bad decisions?

I have been through every bit of what you describe. I have paid the consequences for it my good name and reputation for on. Damn I should have made better choices, damn these people werent worth it. I cant go through life looking in the rear view mirror. I have to change my behavior so these things stop happening.

And wait until your kids tell you how unsafe they felt allowing these people in your life and to even think twice about what kind of support abusive, alcoholic dysfunctional people need. Who cares what they need? They are not your problem. Taking care of yourself and your children are.

The difference between what happened to your kids and to your husband is your kids did not deserve what happened to them your husband did.

Dont give your husband what he wants sympathy and understanding give him what he deserves a boot out of your life.

The fact that you stay awake thinking about your alcoholic parent and an alcoholic on this site tells me that alcoholics still have control over you.

Every second you spend on their crap you dont spend on positive things like what you can do to make your life and the lives of your kids better

July 28, 2008
2:27 pm
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I want to give you support. I could care less about the dysfunctional people in your life. I want to help you get healthy enough to feel perfectly OK to set up boundaries and keep them away

Most here are or have been in your situation. I want to help you loose your aquired taste to be with dysfunctional people.

Growing up you were a child you had no control over what others did. Now you are an adult and have all the power to decide who is or is not in your life.

July 28, 2008
2:33 pm
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Coming from you, i will take most of that as a compliment. Coming from someone who takes in kids, and sends them away and everything else. Along with your husband. That kid didn't deserve that. You had NO concern for how you affected that kid, it was about you when you took her in, and about you when you sent her away. You are selfish, and uncaring, and that is more than obvious.

See, now you are just being flat out mean. I didn't ask for that. My kids didn't ask for that either.

I will support my husband, whether we stay together or now. And I will and have supported my kids. Did I fail them? Absolutely. However, I am not so closed minded to think that people can not change.

If it weren't for the conversation that took place on this site last night, I may have never thought about that situation again. Though, I am thankful that I did. It did show me that there are still things that I need to deal with from that.

Your post was malicious, and wrong. You have NO idea what I have come from, or how far I have come. What I have watched you go through in this last year is something you should feel gives you ANY right to treat anyone the way that you do. You are rude and disrespectful, and any conversation with you for me ends NOW. I agreed to disagree and you had to continue to run me into the ground.

I will continue to read your posts as there are times I think you say some brilliant things. Most of the time, I think you are a mean person, and you prove it over and over. Thank you for the feelings that you have left me with today. I appreciate them. To me, you aren't worth it Destiny. You are a mean, vindictive person who thinks that you are better than everyone else. You are no better than the husband you complain about.

July 28, 2008
2:51 pm
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marypoppins
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Hey Ladies,

My feelings about my parents and previous relationships were also stirred by the other thread.

It's difficult to distinguish when one is being truly supportive or controlling or enabling. In a dysfunctional relationship, true support is likely not possible. We may give to avoid our own problems and/or give as an indirect way to fill our own void.

An incomplete person, one who has unresolved childhood issues, one who is suffering from low self-esteem, one who doesn't know how to give to her/himself, cannot really provide true support in a relationship, in my opinion.

Furthermore, I don't believe genuine love or intimacy can exist in a dysfunctional relationship. It's more often dependency or addiction to the other. Because how can we really love another if we don't love ourselves?

I see now, after many years of therapy and experience, that my parents have enabled one another since day one of their relationship -close to 50 years. The series of exchanges, trade-offs, etc. only they know the details of. In a sense, I'm an orphan, because they will continue to enable one another and protect their reality. Any challenge to it, any challenger, simply gets crushed.

In my own life, I got involved with an active alcoholic, and also married, twice, a "dry drunk" - a man who had gotten sober but was still unwilling to learn how to be intimate in a marriage. I hung on for years, taking crumbs, taking responsibility for making the entire marriage work. He refused to go to therapy, but I went, eventually gaining the courage to say "no more -I want and deserve better".

No one forced me to stay. No one forced me to marry him twice. My own fear of real intimacy, my reluctance to learn how to be on my own, and my fantasy of a happpy little family all kept me stuck. Also, in childhood, having experienced love as something to beg for and as something abusive, the relationship seemed "normal" to me.

We may be called selfish when we begin to finally take care of ourselves, but we are useless to anyone if we are not whole.

((((all of us))))

July 28, 2008
5:07 pm
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Isis
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(((Sweet Peas)))

Hang in there babe.

(((Mary Poppins)))

You're awesome, too.

Destiny, once again, you've out-done yourself. You really are an enigma.

July 28, 2008
10:13 pm
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sweet peas, the child was not my child she has a mother and wanted to go back and live with her.

What kind of a person like you allows her children to be beaten then continues to live with the man. Obviously a child abuser lover.

You have social services in your life cause you are an unfit parent that is not to be trusted.

You obviously have issues. And want to blame everyone for your sick feelings.

Since you blame everyones wives for their husbands problems maybe you were the reason why your husband beat your kids he must of got sick and tired of your mental abuse.

You are the one who wrote this thread to me. Why cause the man on the other thread agreed with me?

July 28, 2008
10:29 pm
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Destinystar

Are your allegations and assumptions supportive? To me, these statements merely back up what Sweet Peas said, "You are rude and disrespectful". I've noticed you have been doing this more lately. Are you angry about something in your life? If so, do you want to talk about it, address it appropriately?

July 28, 2008
10:43 pm
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Shaney
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It must be hot out there in the 29 Palms area, because it seems you have just straight lost your head with these last comments to Sweet Pea.

NOT supportive at all, regardless of your personal feelings. Triggered perhaps? You may need to step back and take some of your own advice before you take such a blatanly rude stand.

July 28, 2008
11:15 pm
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((((((((((sweeTpea))))))))))

July 28, 2008
11:17 pm
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WTF............you have got to be kiddin me............I am gonna have to get my thoughts together before I post anymore........I surely thought this kinda crap was over........

You hang in there sweetpea........I don't believe you are an unfit parent at all........You have my support...........

July 28, 2008
11:24 pm
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((((((((((MARYPOPPINS))))))))))

((((((((((ISIS))))))))))

((((((((((BEV))))))))))

((((((((((SHANEY))))))))))

Destiny, you prolly deserve a hug but due to your inability to be humane IMO, I am unable to do so...........

July 28, 2008
11:44 pm
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This particular "discussion" began in the "5 Weeks Separation..." thread and Sweetpeas continued it on this thread.

Destiny, I know that you have gone many many rounds with your alcoholic husband and that you're trying to break free from him but can't. That frustration reads loud and clear. And in my experience with you, when you feel you're being attacked, you strike back hard, hitting below the belt. I grew up with this from my mom. She still does it. I fight not to do it, but I lose that fight sometimes.

Seems to me that you and Sweetpeas have a lot in common in that you're both trying to sort out what is best for yourselves and your children. Perhaps she's at a stage you were once at, when you had some compassion for your husband.

However, after being disappointed again and again, you're trying to take responsibility for your own happiness and no longer enable him in any way, shape, or form.

I know he still tells you he loves you, but he still drinks heavily and only cares about what he wants. You have expressed anger with yourself at being swayed by his lies.

Sometimes, after we've woken up from what we now consider a fantasy land, we want to convert others. I understood your message - "the taste for dysfunctional people" phrase, for example.

And I believed you were sincere when you told Sweetpeas you wanted to support her.

You went on attack, though, Destiny. It doesn't make you a bad person. And it's up to you to decide whether or not you want to apologize. I know it's not always easy to do.

And please excuse my "speaking for" anyone.

All the best to all of us!

Love,
Mary

((((all of us))))

July 28, 2008
11:46 pm
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((((Mary))))

July 28, 2008
11:48 pm
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Friendma
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I believe that we all deserve support, we may not be able to support everyone and when we can't I believe we need to step back and keep our mouth shut.......Destiny, I believe that you deserve support but I am definately not able to support you so the rest of my post is directed to SWEETPEA...........

I can look back over my life and see how I should of done things different....although at the time I did the best that I could.......If only I could be then who I am becoming now.........I can't change the past no matter how much I want to........all I can do is deal with now and do the best that I can......

I don't believe you caused your husband to do anything........I also believe that you are a fit mom...just
because people have gotten involved does not make you a bad parent, it just means that you needed help and you were able to ask for that help. I cannot and will not judge you.......It is easy to be on the outside of a situation looking in and pass judgement.........

I believe we all have dysfunctional people in our life and are dysfunctional to some extent........that makes you normal in my book.........

Needing help and askin for help to me is not a sign of weakness, it is a sign of strength........

I could say so much more, but I want to think more about it before I do.....

SWEETPEA, just know that there are people here who will support you and others who won't because they can't for whatever reason........I hope the nasty comments posted here stop.....

((((((((((SWEETPEA))))))))))

July 28, 2008
11:59 pm
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marypoppins
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((((all of us)))) again

I really love those cyber hugs, and I appreciate this forum so much. I've learned from everyone here. And it feels great to be read - listened to and to have a sense of family, a healthy family. We all want to be loved and understood and healed.

Peace and love, everyone.

July 29, 2008
12:02 am
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(((not-so-wary-mary)))

July 29, 2008
12:03 am
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Miss Perky,

This is a good point. "it just means that you needed help and you were able to ask for that help." It's difficult to reach out and ask for help after living in the abusive dynamic for a long time.

From what I understand, Miss Pea utilised every legal avenue her town, county, state? had to offer in trying to get help for her husband. That's pretty smart in my opinion.

By going through the proper channels, it insures that the mother will not lose custody of her children, that she would have support of the protective agencies, and counseling is offered to the entire family during the difficult transition. That sometimes takes time, because they want to talk to the husband (or wife) to see if educating him is feasible. Lots of documentation protecting the abused. When it comes time for the divorce, the documentation by those agencies will work in her favor. It won't just be her word against his.

Sweet Pea, I am here to support you in this difficult time. If you need to detach from this playground for a while, I will understand, but know that there is support here. I don't post much any more, but I left an abuser, so I know what you are going through. It's hard to be alone, and you are a very brave woman to have done what you did. You are brave to be vulnerable here.

squooshy hugs to you, sending you positive healing energy.

July 29, 2008
12:03 am
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Shaney
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You're a good person DJ-ScaryP... honestly. You're definitely the voice of middle-ground-type-reason here. ((((warypoppins)))

I think that people are triggered when they may KNOW the right thing to do, but can't do it themselves in all reality. Maybe that's what provokes Destinystar to lash out... the fact that she KNOWS what is right, but can't accomplish what she preaches? I don't know. Just my big fat opinion.

July 29, 2008
12:04 am
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marypoppins
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🙂

July 29, 2008
12:06 am
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((((((((((BEV))))))))))

You have such a way with words my friend......... :>)

July 29, 2008
12:07 am
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((((((((((SHANEY))))))))))

July 29, 2008
12:07 am
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Shaney
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Scary P, are you down with me... YO Scary P...

((((WaryP))))... not so wary anymore.

:o) ... gotta love you Miss MaryPOP

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