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Desperate in AZ - I love her so much and she won't open up
September 29, 2006
12:35 am
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az_gilbert
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update on my update (I sent it too soon).

Both of us showing up will be a surprise for the therapist. But, he did ask about 2-3 sessions ago if we were ready for a joint session. I hope he can 'roll with the punch'.

True to my 'control' form, or maybe just 'cause there might be an awkward, "why are you here", I prepared a script to share if necessary. It is:

* we can't seem to communicate

* my efforts have been labeled as controlling and I recognize this.

* you (my wife) appear to have given up and not interested. To the point of withdrawal (I may leave that last bit out, it might be demeaning).

* our most meaningful conversation was last Sunday when you were on your way out. You got behind the "unhappy" comment and said:

- "I never could talk to you"

- "I don't trust you"

- "I don't trust my feelings"

* We didn't pursue these issues beyond my letter acknowledging your concerns and my own trust issues.

* Please know that I want to be your "funny looking guy" [an old private joke] and a participant in healing our lives.

Again, pray extra hard for us. This is probably a real watershed discussion in front of us.

az_G

September 29, 2006
3:20 am
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doubleloss
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only use "I" statements. I feel ...
I think ..... I desire....

if you read your list, you have to many "you" this "you that", that will put anyone on the defensive.

i hope that you guys can work things out, but be prepared for anything. Keep in mind who it IS that you are striving to become, YOU, regardless of what happens.

all the best to both of you.

September 29, 2006
8:27 am
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az_gilbert
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very good points. I will try to keep focused on the "I" and not the "you".

I'm very glad I got up early enought to check the posts.

az_G

September 29, 2006
11:34 am
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southgoingzax
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good luck, az. I hope it went well.

September 29, 2006
11:58 am
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risingfromtheashes
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az - I hope this works out for you.

The only problem I see here is the one I faced with my ex.

He was always agreeing to do things he didn't want to do (such as you giving her space) because he wanted our relationship to work.

The problem is - you are doing what you are told to do - but you aren't geting the results you want from it.

And the reason this is a problem is that you have an "expectation" that if you do the work, she will work her way back to you.

Problem lies in that - there is really no guarantee that what you do will bring her back. And if that expectation isn't met, you will be hurt - all that work for what? for nothing! And I sort of hear that tone in your postings - when she was positive, you were positive, when she was negative, you were hurting.

You can't pin expectations on this.

You need to do this because it's the healthy thing to do. The detaching part....the letting go part.

If you are detaching and letting go, in order to get the results you want, it's not the true intention of letting go.

My experience was that my ex would agree to do something I requested and thought it would "fix" our problems and we would have a stable, happy relationship. Well, sometimes he did follow thru, but it didn't fix all of it and then he'd throw it back in my face "I did this, that and the other, and it didn't work, we are still fighting"....when in fact, he only fixed a small part of the bigger problem.

It's like an alcoholic promising to stop drinking if his partner doesn't leave. He stops, but the fights continue - so he wonders why he stop drinking in the first place and says screw it, and starts drinking again.

Ultimately, you have to make the changes for YOU - cuz you want to be healthier for YOU - not to win her back. You seem hypervigilant of her actions - looking for confirmation or validation that you are doing the right thing and it's working and you may get her back....but that's no way to live.

Your goal should be to be the healthiest person you can be - with or without her.

Maybe I am off base here, so forgive me if I am - but I just don't want to see you hurt if you don't get the results you are hoping for, just cuz you are doing all that everyone told you to do.....you need to believe the changes you are making are good ones - and understand why you are making them (like not being a workaholic, I think that's a good one)....but if you don't believe in the changes, or understand them - it's going to be damn hard to make them permanent.

My ex tried changing for me - but in the end, he wasn't being true to who he really was inside....and he couldn't maintain that "new persona" because it wasn't real. And that was the hardest thing for us to overcome - cuz he wanted our relationship to work (so he said) at any cost, and so did I - but it would have cost him his own person to be something he wasn't. And I wasn't really having a relationship with the true "E" - cuz he was pretending to be someone he wasn't....and couldn't keep it up. Maybe that's confusing. But he wanted to change, but just so we could work - but in the end, it was too much work to change and he didn't believe in the changes, so it was hard to make those changes permanent part of who he was.

rambling, sorry....I hope things go ok for you.

September 29, 2006
12:06 pm
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doubleloss
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i agree with rising.
you're at a very, very hard cross roads, time to be true to you, do what will make you a better person for you....that will always affect everyone around you, and who knows, maybe that will have a possitive effect on your wife and will want to give things another try, but maybe not. Promising change with strings attached is kind of controlling. Thread lightly. Be gentle with yourself. Feel all you need to feel. We'll be here for you. Take care.

September 29, 2006
1:02 pm
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az_gilbert
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Thx all. I hear you.

I just got back from the joint counseling session with the IC. It went OK. We got some things out on the table regarding boundaries, confidence, control v independence, and insecurities.

The IC gave me a similar message to yours - focus on me, not her; learn to be more comfortable with who and what I want to be. She may or may not chose to be in a relationship. Pressing / controlling is just a way to corner her and drive her away.

She mentioned separation once, but did not bring it up as a topic. I think she's going to stay around for a bit.

Near term focus areas for me are:
respecting both my and her boundaries; continue to integrate my recent changes (abandoning anger & unwanted guidance (control) of others) to create a safe atmosphere for sharing; rediscover confidence; separate confidence from control; demonstrate confidence, cease using control as a surrogate; quit trying to 'fix' any and everything, calm down and accept things more as they are rather than change them in time or concept to 'fit' some internal order; continue to try and understand that her decisions are for her alone, all I can do is work on me - she may or may not choose to be with whatever I end up being.

This is a mountain of work, but absolutely necessary first to get me on the healing path and then for any potential new relationship. I still want that relationship to be with my wife, but that needs to be relegated to a more distant goal secondary to the more fundamental issues of healing myself first. Easier said than done, but that's part of the challenge.

Thx for all your input and I look forward to more.

az_G

September 29, 2006
1:41 pm
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risingfromtheashes
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AZ - I am glad things went well.

I have to say that it is going to be hard for both of you to be in the house - for her to be independent and for you. But if you are committed, the best you can do is try it.

I will tell you that as I set out on my quest to better myself - I felt "selfish". And I know that you look at her "detachment" as selfish in a way - cold even. But honestly, it's something you will have to practice yourself.

Where you may get confused is this - you are told to be true to yourself - but if you are true to yourself - doesn't that mean you SHOULD share those thoughts that you have in your head and heart? Cuz that's what the real you wants to do?

I know that was my question when I first started this.

And the answer, if I can phrase it right, is no - cuz that's the unhealthy part of you that needs changing.

sharing your feelings is good - but using your feelings to manipulate, dominate or control is not.

and until you know how to share in a healthy way - AND she is ready to hear you - then it's best to keep still.

I admire your courage - this is a huge undertaking - but it will get better. I know, I have made strides towards fixing my own control issues. And it doesn't get fixed overnight, but at some point, you do see progress, which keeps you going forward.

You may or may not end up with her - but as you said - that's secondary to becoming a healthy adult.

keep up the good work.

September 29, 2006
4:10 pm
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i just read up on your story and i can relate to alot of the pain you are feeling. I cant add much more to the responses you have gotten but I do want you to know that I am pulling for you. I will keep reading your posts with the hopes that it has a happy ending.

September 30, 2006
12:45 am
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az_gilbert
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Rising & Hopefull32,
At this point, I am concentrating on respecting her boundaries and giving her space. It is difficult. I left the house on 'errands' for about 1-1/2 hours this evening - - for about a 30 minute errand. Mostly I was trying to be gone. I want to be here with her, but that 'traps' her and is contraindicated.

She has now retreated to 'her' room and is reading - something she seems to do a very lot of at this point. It's private and away from me, so it's probably a sanctuary. I have actually been a very good boy regarding respecting her independence, but as you might expect, it's not what my heart wants to do.

I received some very sobering advise this afternoon from a trusted advisor, one who has a fairly deep understanding of the psychology of relationships, and this advice parallelled the therapist's guidance this morning, and the advice here - - I have to continue to evolve my new personhood independent of my desire for a relationship with this woman. I must internalize that the former relationship is dead and that she does not want a new relationship with me at this point. This is VERY discouraging. This almost puts me into despair. How can one person love another this much and have nothing felt in return? A sad situation. So, I now need to grieve for the lost relationship with no real hope for a new one with this person?

I know this is a good 'survival' approach for the 'just in case' she wants a permanant separation/divorce, but it is so different from the voices of my heart.

Those voices will have to be silent for now as I am heeding the advice above that such voicing could be overtly or inadvertently manipulating and they are certainly unwelcome by her. So, silent they shall be. I hear them very loudly, but that must be kept inside.....

There are times on this journey of rediscovery when a cold & calloused heart is almost envied as I suppose the pain just doesn't get through. Mine is bare and vulnerable at this point, so I feel every pin-prick. I can't go back, so I must go forward.

Pray for us,
Thank you all

September 30, 2006
11:17 am
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Well said. In my 32 years I can easily say the period when my ex girlfriend fell out of love with me while I still adored her was the toughest time in my life. She was my first waking thought, I thought about her all day til I went do bed and then proceeded to dream about her. It was horrible. This site helped me a great deal. The people here are angels, I wish I could express to them how much they all helped me. If I may I would like to share with you the mistakes I made which made the situation worse for me.
1. I called her begging and pleading to give the relationship another shot. All that did was make her lose more respect for me and I lost respect for myself. Not to mention a blubbering pathetic fool doesn't look very attractive.
2. After it was obvious she had moved on with her life I continued to communicate with her. If she showed me any type of kindness my mind ran with it. I thought maybe she was warming up to me and we could work things out. Not the case and my balloon quickly deflated and I became very depressed all over again.
3. I constantly guessed and made assumptions which were mostly incorrect. I almost lost my mind over things I had made up.

What helped was this site, time, and no contact. Well, I hope that helps and once again i am pulling for you.

October 3, 2006
5:41 pm
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ShortCake
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AZ,

I have been thinking about you. Thanks for all the posts. I have been really busy, but I have been reading the updates.

Good Luck!
Shortcake

October 3, 2006
7:06 pm
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doubleloss
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az, how is it going? how are you?

October 8, 2006
10:45 pm
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doubleloss
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bump

October 9, 2006
6:14 pm
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ShortCake
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AZ,

Where you at? Any updates?

Thinking about you!
Shortcake

April 12, 2007
4:36 am
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az_gilbert
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It's been quite a while since I've posted on this site. A lot has happened, most of it has been very difficult.

To all those who shared with me so openly,I would like to thank you for your thoughts, opinions and prayers. However, someone formerly very close to me just informed me she had been told of my former posts and had read them herself. She had been told they made her look bad. That was not my intent. I was being honest with my emotions - my distress, confusion and mystery.

To any and all who might remember, please accept my apology. Sorry if my discussions came across as "poor me" pleadings.

I would like to be clear that I have/am abandoning some very reprehensible behaviors of my past and working to be a much more honest and open person for the future. I have been given feedback from my IC and others that I've experienced some success with this. I am not content but do find myself abhoring many of my former behaviors. It is difficult to see this in yourself and even more difficult to forgive yourself, but it is important to own the past and see it for what it was. It is vital to understand it well enough to never repeat it. Forgiving, of myself and by others, is an important step I have yet to wrassle with - necessary for continued growth, but just very difficult to accept and acknowledge such poor, immature behavior.

Thank you for your time and support. I did not intend to 'abandon' all those who helped me with their input, but life, for a period, has been pretty overwhelming.

Thank you

April 12, 2007
6:45 am
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CAMER
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HI az, hope you are doing ok....

thats why posting here, its very important not to let anyone know, cuz this is what can happen, she finds out and reads your most personal feelings, and she may have felt violated, and felt you made her look bad, but honestly, you were just stating how you felt and how the relationship was feeling.

I don't think you had immature behavior, as you posted, you just state how you feel.

And its common for people to come and go thru out this site, and we are all here just to support eachother, thru good times and bad, and know that everyone does have lives outside of this place.

(((here's a hug for coming back and opening up, yourself)))) camer

August 16, 2007
12:41 am
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az_gilbert
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Dear A,
If you're still reading this site, I would like to tell you that I am very, very sorry for the pain I have caused you. I may only be able to feel a small part of your suffering, but it fills me with sorrow. I have sobbed when I think of your agony. You have a beautiful spirit and I pray for your happiness.

with love,
T

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