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Dear Spirit, Hazza and all
May 22, 2000
12:00 am
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Brenda
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Hi dear ones
Brenda here,
Everything has been going so great with me and my marriage that I have been walking on air, but, tonight, we had our first "tiff" in a long time and im hurting. As you know, I dont really have anyone to talk to other than you guys at times like this. I like the anonymity and the fact that I can be entirely truthful here...and open.
The argument started because I felt upset that I was doing all the work around the house today (im 9 mos pregnant) and he was playing primarily computer games and with our son. I got up, cooked breakfast ( I even did this on mothers day ) cleaned up, went out shopping, watched our children ( as I always do ) prepared for a party and collapsed on the couch by afternoon. He bathed, played on the computer, played with our son, and did who knows what....
I felt really pissed off, I am really exhausted and get little to no help with the chores on weekends or evenings. IT is hard for me as Im soon to give birth, he has never even offered to make me a cup of tea or fetch me breakfast or even give me a back massage ( my back is so sore )
In the past he was the insensitive husband who was out drinking every fri night, hit me once six months ago and occasionally has been verbally abusive. I tried to talk to him today, our communication has been pretty good, although the workaholism is still pretty much there for him, but he gave me the finger and said to my son "mommy is an angry lady" I am not an angry person, I was angry at him for his neglect and insensitivity towards me as his pregnant wife and partner.
I got scard and felt the old stuff might come back with him, out of fear came anger, I told him i didnt want to sleep with him and wished he would sleep in the other room if he was going to be so rude and insensitive and abusive. He said no/ So I feel like I will have to sleep in the other room. Why shoudl I have to leave my bedroom?
He spends more time with our eldest son than he does with me and he said to me today (out of anger) "I hate spending time with you" and at some level I felt it was true.
I havent felt this hurt in a long time.
I have forgiven him for so much and put up with so much in this marriage, but he knows that I dont do that any more. I am a different person.
I just need to talk........n0ot good to keep it in.
Hope to hear some kind words from my friends.
god bless
in light, all things are possible....hugs

May 22, 2000
12:05 am
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Brenda
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I am also beginning to feel some anger for the past shit that he put me through. He was so cruel to me that it makes my body weep to think of it, the threats, the emotional pain he caused me....I was so codependent, I was so confused, my self esteem was so crushed. Now that I see even an inkling of that behavior, it makes my back go up and my skin crawl in defence of my power.
I will not let or give away my power to him or anyone anymore, and to talk to me and treat me thus, when I am carrying our child........
It really sickens me, I care so much for myself and my baby.
needed to talk...thanks for listening.

May 22, 2000
12:08 am
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Brenda
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I am wondering, perhaps my hormones are acting up a little, is this normal marriage stuff, it has been so good for so long now...
maybe im expecting too much....

May 22, 2000
12:17 am
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Brenda
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Some of the nicest people I know are codependent. They always smile, never refuse to do a favor. They are happy and bubbly all the time. They understand others and have the ability to make people feel good. People like them!
So, what is wrong with this? Nothing, really, unless the giving is one-sided and so excessive that it hurts the giver. Then, the giver is showing the signs of codependence.

Partners who go out of their way for each other are interdependent. Only relatively healthy people are capable of interdependent relationships, which involve give and take. It is not unhealthy to unilaterally give during a time when your partner is having difficulty. You know your partner will reciprocate should the tables turn. Interdependency also implies that you do not have to give until it hurts. By comparison, in a codependent relationship, one partner does almost all the giving, while the other does almost all the taking, almost all of the time.

By giving, codependent people avoid the discomfort of entitlement. Giving allows them to feel useful and justifies their existence. Rather than simply approving of themselves, codependent people meet their need for self-esteem, by winning their partner’s approval. Also, because they lack self-esteem, codependent people have great difficulty accepting from others. One must feel deserving and entitled in order to accept what is offered.

Codependent behavior is not easy. It requires a lot of work. It hurts. These individuals typically suffer with low self-esteem, depression, anxiety, and especially guilt, as well as other painful thoughts and feelings. They judge themselves using far stricter criteria than they use to measure the performance of others. While they are brutally critical of their own misbehavior, they are very good at justifying and excusing the misbehavior of others.

Codependent people misplace their anger. They get angry when they shouldn't, and don't get angry when they should. They have little contact with their inner world and thus very little idea about how they feel. Usually, they don't want to know because it gives rise to painful emotions. It is easier to stay on the surface and pretend things are peachy keen, rather than deal with the stuff going on inside.

If they were to look inside, they would find their emotional starvation. They are busy taking care of others. Yet, they do not meet their own needs!

They may put up with abusive relationships or relationships that are not fulfilling because any warm body beats (gasp) no warm body. Being alone is perceived as scary, empty, depressing, etc. After all, who will deliver their emotional supplies? Who will distract them so there is no time to deal with their inner life? Even an abusive relationship is better than no relationship.

These loving, giving people find interesting ways of explaining their behavior to themselves. Loyal to a fault, a codependent individual is likely to rationalize a loved one's disrespectful behavior by making excuses for them. "He doesn't mean it." "It was not done with malice." "It is the best he can do." "She had such an awful childhood." Etc., etc., etc.

The central concept is that the codependent individual "takes it" and "understands," despite feeling hurt. Waiting for brownie points in heaven, or for a loved one to be magically healed through their persistent love and care taking, they accept disrespect from others. It does not occur to the codependent person that it is not OK to "take it" and "put up" no matter what!

Much of this abuse acceptance occurs without the codependent individual feeling abused! More accurately, these individuals do not feel OK enough to expect respectful treatment at all times, and to notice when it is not forthcoming. Having grown up in a home where a parent or sibling demanded inordinate attention (due to addiction, illness, anger, or other problem), the codependent person is trained to care for others. Having grown up in a difficult environment, a negative emotional climate is experienced as normal and familiar. This is why there is often little recognition of disrespect. If their partner is angry or upset, the codependent individual will implicitly assume that they did something to cause the anger. It does not occur to them that it is their partner's responsibility to deal with their problem and to treat others respectfully. It does not occur to them that it is their responsibility to themselves to stop another person's demeaning behavior toward them. But, how can stop disrespect when misbehavior is not perceived as disrespectful or abusive? Disrespect is normal.

An unfortunate side effect of the codependent person's willingness to ignore, excuse, or otherwise allow the partner's abuse or disrespect, enables the misbehavior directed at them to continue and intensify. Implicit or explicit permission to continue misbehaving is granted since the codependent partner "understands."

Because codependent individuals are approval-driven, they cannot stand it when others are angry at or disappointed with them. As such, they unwittingly place themselves in a position to be taken advantage of. The more approval is needed, the less likely is the individual to realize the extent of their self-sacrifice in favor of tending to the needs of the other. This hurts ("Ouchhh!"), and creates or maintains depression and low self-esteem, in a vicious, downward spiral.

While abuse, disrespect, or unrequited sacrifice angers them, as it should, codependent people do not realize how angry they are and at whom they are angry! Targeting the appropriate person may jeopardize a source of approval and self-esteem. To avoid facing reality, they distort it. Codependent individuals are likely to somehow blame themselves and rationalize their "over-sensitivity." They justify the other person's behavior by thinking they must deserve the treatment they are getting. This is preferable to facing the possibility that an individual who provides a measure of their self-esteem is hurting them.

"Anger...is a signal that something is wrong and needs attention".

Anger is healthy. It is a signal that something is wrong and needs attention. However, if the source of anger is not articulated, how can it be fixed? Codependent people are expert at denying anger and turning it against the self - into sadness and depression. Instead of asking themselves why are they are putting up with… (fill in the blank), they ask themselves how they could have behaved differently - to obtain a more favorable reaction from their partner!

Unarticulated anger is often misdirected and expressed inappropriately. Anger may be experienced as resentment, expressed as an aggressive blow-up, or in passive-aggressive acting out. The cognitive and verbal skills to appropriately assert oneself are lacking.

Since codependent people are experts at controlling other people's thoughts, feelings, and behavior, they feel hurt that others don't reciprocate and "know" what they need. "If they really loved me, they would know." Not so! Since codependents do not have the self-esteem to ask for what they secretly want, they are unlikely to get it. If they do make a request, it is often a roundabout hint. If their partner cannot decipher the request, they feel hurt and unloved. They believe they conveyed their desires, when, in fact, they have not!

Because most codependent individuals are control-oriented, they are very responsible. They are great employees. Tasks are done thoroughly and on time. Even parts of the job that are not theirs get picked up if coworkers are neglectful or slow. They try to control outcomes, whether those outcomes are completed job tasks or reactions from other people. Anything for approval.

However, some codependent individuals are very irresponsible, in select or diverse life areas. They don't know how to or don't feel the need to take care of some of their own basic needs, especially if there is another person to care for instead. Why spend the time trying to figure out what the self needs, when the self doesn't really matter anyway? It is far more preferable to be out avoiding one's own issues: out having fun, hunting for a partner, or self-medicating feelings.

Codependent people are addiction prone. They may drink too much, shop too much, eat too much, etc. Dulling the senses is a great way to avoid knowing yourself and dealing with your feelings. Intimacy is avoided. Intimate behavior requires familiarity and comfort with one's internal world. Since the codependent person regards ordinary human needs as shameful, embarrassing, dangerous, or otherwise uncomfortable, meeting basic needs are often dismissed.

Any relationship that ignores the self is superficial. Unfortunately, superficial relationships are safe...but empty and unfulfilling.

Control is central to the "MO" of the codependent person. They control their self-esteem by catering to others' needs. They control by their over-responsible performance, picking up where others leave off. They control by avoiding intimacy or by clouding the mind. They control by advising others on what to do. These individuals work very hard to control everything and everybody. Yet, they neglect the one person they do have control over: themselves.

May 22, 2000
2:27 am
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vositor
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Dear Brenda,

What a stupid thing to say to someone who's pregnant and exhausted, that she's no fun. I don't blame you for being exasperated.

May 22, 2000
3:14 am
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Hi Brenda,

Well, I know where you are at, if that is any comfort!

I think you may remember my thread "message to Brenda?" it caused all that outcry didn't it? but in that thread I was trying to explain this stage and these feelings to you. I think maybe you understand my message there even if others did not.

The whole point was that we get to this stage, where we have made so many changes in ourselves and we wake up to ourselves and realise just how much of the past pain was partly caused by us. this causes a grief reaction. this , i think, is what you are feeling now.

This is what i mean't when i said, that you have to ask yourself whether it is really worth it, because things are never perfect afterwards and there is a lot of hurt for you to process.

I wen't through, and to a degree continue to go through the same thing.

Suddenly, amonst the relief you feel when you realise that you don't have to take this crap anymore, there is still the pain and fear. Deep down you still want it to "work" so until you can really say to yourself "i will get the relationship I want or it will be over" there is always that amount of fear there that can drag you back to co-dependency, that is YOUR constant battle!

But more than that, there is the painthat you are NOW feeling, due to the past hurts. All the pain that we deny when in the midst of the co-dep behaviour, comes back later to bite our arses!
You think back to when this evening happened or that time happened and you just want to get a large baseball bat and whack the guy until he feels some of the pain that he caused you back then! this is a natural feeling. I have and continue to feel it often. This was my very point in that thread, was that bearing in mind that you will have these feelings, ask yourself is it really worth it. If there is enough healthy love left in you and him, then you make the decision to try despite these feelings. If not, then you part company and hope for more understanding next time round.

Many people in response to that thread had the attitude that "if you don't leave, then you are still being co-dep. No other option" Which i disagreed with. But it is very very easy to slip back to being co-dep. If things keep returning back to the ways they were before, then maybe the relasionship is still co-dep. It is your job to be aware of that possiblility and act accordingly. Just as I have to. A lot of hard work just to "save" a relationship. and it can only be worth that effort ON BOTH PARTS!, if the good stuff is worth it.

I make the choice to take on that hard work, because i know that depsite the hard times, my partner is the only man I have ever met who has the emotional intelligence to understand me. Every other man I have met has not really understood my philosophies, emotions and feelings. It was a big lack in my life until I met my current B/F.

So the pro "once a co-dep always a co-dep" lobby, would argue that we are both fucked up and therefore gel together in an unhealthy manner. Maybe!
But whatever reltaiosnip you have you need to be understood on the levels that your mind works on. Better to strive to make the relationship healthy, if it means that much to both of you rather than you both give it up and find yourselves with other people who may not have the same problems, but don't understand you and you dont understnd them at all!!

SO, you are or have been at that stage. Both of you realised that your love was worth saving.

You need to be very aware that your partner has made this decision due to a genuine love and not due to convienience or whatever.

I assume that you have reached the stage where you know that.

So now, quite rightly you are mad as hell at him.

Why couldn't he have behaved the way he has latley much sooner?
Why did he put you through this crap???
WHy the hell did he hit a pregnant woman?

So many questions, so much anger.
Been there, felt it!

and when you feel this way, you need to remind yourself. that firstly he was very wrong in his treatment of you and that you have a right to get angry. BUT also, then was the time that you should have been angry, but for whatever reasons you were not, you suppressed it.

You need to try to come to terms with this past pain. It would have been better had you dealt with it there and then, maybe you would not have allowed it to continue, but you did. That was your part in the cycle. It doesn't excuse him in the least. But his issues are his issues, all you do is concentrate on you.

The simple fact is that you let this happen then because you were co-dep. And the main anger you feel is also at yourself. Why did you not value yourself then like you do now???? you just want to go back in time and talk to yourself as you were then and tell yourself all you know now! But you can't.

take comfort Brenda, in the fact that you so understand co-dep issues now, that that denial and putting up withit is in the past. You will have arguments still, I have some amazing ones too, but you will not react with fear and denial anymore.

You ahve expressed your anger at the right time.

So your husband said "mommy is an angry lady" to your son. Okay that is very immature of him, but you are quite okay to say to your son. "yes mommy is angry right now."
It is healthy for your son to realise that people can get angry and can express that anger. But it is vital that he also sees that people do calm down, they do work out solutions and that although angry (which is healthy) they can control that anger and resolve it.

My parents used to have some great arguments! but as kids we knew that they still oved each other and that they where just angry about such and such, and that they would reach a solution to such and such, and that was that.

I think the definitions of healthy / unhealthy anger is a book in itself. But too much or too little anger are both as bad as each other as you know.

So, you husband really has every right to show his anger about the situationas you. PROVIDING - he does it healthily, ie - is not abusive, so showing you the finger was not fair at all, providing, he calms down and relsoves taht anger with you (and you with him) and that the balance is met, so that both parties feel they have expressed that anger but then can move on. Neither one of you should be in fear for your future if the anger is healthy anger. if so, you need to find a healthier way to express anger when either of you feel it.

SO you need to talk over these issues with hubby.
Ask him why he feeles tht he doesn't like spending time with you. see if there are any compromises you can make. Also explain to him that you need his help around the house and that you need some attention from him. try your best to express what you want and try your best to get him to expres himself too.
at the end of the day, if he isjust still being selfish, there is nothing you can do about that You cannot make him into what you want. He has to value you enough to make the effort and want to do it.
Youa re still always back to that fact. But you need to work out what you want and be prepared to sttle for nothing less. You need to be really sure, and this is the tricky part!, are your expectations reasonable? list them, do they look fanciful? are there some things you could live without, but others that are a necessity for you? work out what the bottome line is. Whatever you know that you MUST have respected to be happy in a relationship, you must express those things to him and explain that they are a must. Listen to what his "must haves" are too. Are they compatable, can you both agree and understand each others base line?

Now, I am not sure at all that you are being hormonal, but there is always that possibility, but be wary that you are also not denying your own true feelings in a typical co-dep manner there, be aware that there amy be truth in this, but also be aware that you are not making excuses for him and others.

What I may suggest is that you, being heavily pregnant, have started "Nesting"!

It is quite normal before the birth for expectant mums to runs around tidying the house and preparing for the new arrival. it is a natural part of motherhood, you are making a den for your new cub. Have you been more worried about housework that usual?

Also your pysical status - ie huge bump! means that youa re able to do less that usual. this makes you need to rely on others to help you out.

it is his baby too, he should help you out with this. Explain to him, tell him what you want. Dont say "I need some help" say to him specifics "can you please wash the dishes, sweep the stairs etc" kae it easy so he doesn't have to guess.

it is great that he is spending time with yor son, try not to be jealous of this, but do ask him to spend time with you also. You are a family, you should spend time together, him spending time with your son, IS spending time with you in a way, but you need some personal time too, maybe when the kids are in bed.
make some time out now, because when junior arrives you wont have so much chance!

It is not the arguments that show progress or lack of it. It is the way that you both deal with the arguments. For this is the time you are both most likely to slip back to your old ways.

How you relsove the issue is important. Get angry but deal with the anger. If you are expressing your anger healthily, you do not need to apoligise for getting angry, but you need to make sure it is dealt with in the right way.

As time goes on, you will grieve those past times and not feel so mad, you now know what you didn't then, you can deal with things differently now. Give it time, but keep your eyes open, to yourself and him, don't allow yourself to slip back to your old ways, that is all you can do. there is nothing more that that. Be aware of what you want and what you don't and express that clearly. the rest is out of your hands. And good luck with junior!
Peace
Haz

May 22, 2000
1:58 pm
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Brenda
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Dear Hazza, "I am not working at this so much for the relationship but mainly for my own personal growth"
I am not working hard on myself for US but for me.
It IS worth it, because our relationships are our greatest teachers and I have learned so much that I could never have learned if I left and continued to meet abusive people and leave and meet etc...
It is within this marriage that I intutively knew I could grow and heal and I am doing just that.
We talked respectfully and expressed each of our feelings this morning. My hsuband regretted his behavior and I regretted the way I dealt with some of it, but it never even went close to escalating to the extent of the past, the kids werent upset and knew that we would resolve our dispute as we have in been doing over the past few months, carefully and lovingly.
But this time there were some disrespectful things said and attempts to hurt which i made clear that I would not accept ( he slept in the other bedroom ) and he was willing to talk this morning and resolve things, in the past it was always me chasing him around the house trying to get him to talk ( control ) this time we met half way and i kept my dignity and power.
When he hit me in the past, I was furious and physically sick from the emotional pain of it and was talking to a lawyer, this is when he really started to change his act, then it was the drinking and then I repeated my moves and I was PREPARED TO LEAVE, THIS IS THE GODS HONEST TRUTH because staying was just enablinb him and killing me....HE KNOWS THIS..
none of this is games, he knows I dont play games...things are always getting better, I was scard last night, but I did not lose it and I kept my faith.
It was good to talk, it made me realise there is still a lot of unfinished business regarding past anger and pain that needs to be expressed and released, but constructively, so I am going to do some intensive journalling.
I know, as god as my witness, I will never have the life of pain and suffering as I did in the past again.
Because I have free will, I take responsibility adn I CHOOSE to live in happiness, self love and harmony.
god bless

May 23, 2000
2:34 am
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Hi Brenda,
I am glad that you two are sorting things out now in such a healthy way. It sounds very different to the way things were before.

Right now my dear I need your help!

I found out last night that he has been drinking again.
Now this has been going on when he goes to the pub with friends, about once a fortnight.

He tells me that he never has more than one pint, and he has only done this maybe 2-3 times a month for the past 3-4 months.

I suspected that he would drink again, but I never knew for definite because he has never come back drunk at all or smelling of alcohol.

He tells me that he now is sure that he can moderate the drinking because he say he will never allow himself to get drunk any more because he understands totally the crap he put me through last summer and says he will never do that again to me and that I should not worry.

I told him this morning that I don't think that I can go through all that "drinking bollocks" again and I also told him that I don't know if I can trust him.

He says that things will never return to the way they were before.

On the plus side, he is now working and studying for a degree. He is now paying the bills - (in a selfish way, I feel that I should allow that to continue, because I spent SO much money looking after us both for so long, that I really feel that it is his turn to pay for things. I also think that he needs to learn that responsibility, he has become so much better at spending money wisely - now it is his money!. But Maybe i am just being mercenary, I dont know)

So where do I go from here?
I am still adament that I will not tolerate being with him when he drinks. I do not socialise with him anymore, because frankly, I do not enjoy it or the people he socialises with.
Do I kick him out, because I did say to him previously that he could have the alcohol OR me and not both.

Or do I see how it goes? I do love him and he loves me. And I must admit that this drinking latley has not been the cause of any problems to us,

If he had come home drunk at all, there would be no problem, he would be gone as soon as I had kicked his arse out of the door. But all I ever wanted of hi in the beginning was for him to show maturity and self control and now he is doing that, do I trust that he has grown as a person? After it it CAN happen! or do I give up on the whole thing?

My whole instinct is to see how things go.
At the moment I have PMS so I am wary about making any decisions this week!

For a long time now, I will not be in situations with him where I could be at risk should he decide t drink, so the only way it affects me now is if he were to come home drunk again like he used to. Do I wait and see?

Do I bother seeing if he can control his drinkig?
My whole instinct has always told me that he can control it for only so long and then it takes over. I can't help but feel this will happen.

But then my whole instinct also told me he would never hold down a job for more than a week, but he has proved me wrong on that front.

So what do you think????????

Peace
Haz

May 23, 2000
2:49 pm
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Brenda
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Dear Hazza:
I feel for you friend.
You and I both know that your boyfriend has certainly benefitted from your love and support, but you and I both know, that HE is not to be the focus of your life any more.
You have some major work that you need to do on yourself Hazza, and you have been avoiding it.
I know how hard it is for you, I know the emotional abuse you suffered at the hands of your mother and I know how much compassion you give to others but not to yourself. This is all strong codep stuff and It really needs to be dealt with. YOu need to be extremely selfish from this point on. I know its hard without any support or feedback from a significant other, no matter how much that person is hurting you by his actions and addictions, but you need to tear away.
You know what I have figured out, all my "niceness" all my trying to help those unhelpable, hurtful and sometimes downright dark people in our lives, continued to reinflict abuse upon ourselves and keep our wounds gaping open.
Hazza, I really know how you feel, I see you go out of your way to help so many people on here with your loving words, but you and i both know, this is in order to create some feelings of worth and self esteem for yourself.
There may have been an abusive, addicted or neglectful parent in your family that stole all the energy and made your neeeds unimportant, you compensated by trying to get love and attention by feeding this person with help, support and doing things for them and making excuses for them ( as I did ) this was the only way you could get some attention or what could be considered "love" to a child. Any amount of positive attention to a child would deniably be called love, this is why we went on to form relatioinships with such unloving, uncaring, selfish, addicted people. IT was as if we were programmed to accept any kind of attention or what we had conceived to be "love" from our dysfunctional families and we needed to hold onto this, because to be alone was the worse thing. To be alone is to feel, to deal with the feelings. You really need to be alone for a while Hazza, you know you need to, but not necessarily with out friends or support, but without your abusor.
He really is abusing you Hazza,when he drinks and disrespects your feelings and your future together.
He has made some big steps and you have both invested so much in each other, but the best thing you can do for him and you is to let go.
Make it a temporary seperation. He has left you no other choice, I swear if my partner starts drinking and abusing again, I will do the same thing. I am not being a hypocrite here, I am being grounded and self loving as I would like my friend Hazza to be.
IT is really important that you start working on your unfinished business, I suggest that you may still havea lot of anger for the way you were treated as a child and as a n adult, Its best to journal these thoughts to your original abusor and mail them if you feel you can, but if not, thats ok too.
They were probably deny everything and try to put their sick behavior back on you, as mine did, but you will know that you were not responsible for that kind of treatment as a child or as an adult.
These people that caused yor original pain are so lost and you can only feel sorry for them. Do not let them take you down with them or your current abusor/addict.
You suffer from anxiety etc, this has a lot to do with suppressed emotions, they stay within your body, you need to contact them, oen thing I have found very valuable in my healing is body work such as massage, osteopathic and feldencraix. I know money is an issue but perhaps there is some kind of masseuse that will visit you in your home. If you start crying, good, this is a release of grief ( let the masseuse know ahead of time, although she is probably quite used to it ) as we deny our feelings unconciously, our muscles and tissues absorb them and cause us chronic pain, ask god to help you release this pain and to feel what is going on for you under that fear. A psychotherapist would be helpful, before any kind of group work.
I better cut this short.
God bless you Hazza

May 24, 2000
3:24 am
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hazza
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HI Brenda,
Thanks for your words. Much of it made sense to me but the is much that isn't relevent also.

firstly, my boyfriend has not been abusive like he used to. it is true that he has a temper, but he hasn't been drinking like he did before, and he does acknowledge the pain he caused me before. Rather like your husband, he has been drinking in a controlled manner, now I don't know if that will last but, It would not be right for me right now to say he has gone back to his old behaviour because he hasn't. I may fear that that behaviour may return, but at the moment it would be unfair of me to say he is that same as before, because it jsut isn't.

As for him jeopardising or future together, maybe if his old behaviour returned then yes. But as it stands it is he that makes the plans for our future and me who decides openly with him that I am not ready to plan for a future with him yet, whatever my fears about the future, I cannot in all fairness say that he doesn't take our relationship seriously, because he does. It is very important to him.

YOu say that your husband has alcohol problems, how do you see the distinction between his drinking now and his drinking back then? because he still drinks but you say that it is different now. I still feel in my heart that it would be very hard for wither of them not to slip back to where they were, but if the abuse part is not there then that is the main thing that pissed us off right?

I am really not afraid to end my relationship, i have been thinking long and hard about that. But right now I do need to wait for my PMS to subside! because I cannot make good deciosions at this time of the month! so I am thinking it through very carefully right now.
But I do not want to over react either when so much growth has been achieved by us both.

Your comments about my reltaionship with my mother were interesting. Yes, I had a difficult relationship with her when I was child. But it was a very distant one. I got good nurturing and parenting from my grandfather as a child with whom we lived. I was a stubborn child and rejected my mother strongly from an early age. I was very indenpendent right up until my twenties, it is only latley i guess that the whole thing came back to haunt me. But i did confront my mother about all of these issues, and we both worked very hard to resolve them. I no longer feel such anger towards her because we have discussed at leangth these things and settled them. If i were to die tommorrow then I would genuinely not have any thing left that I feel is unresolved with her. Okay we will never agree on all things! we are very different types of people, but we have both learnt to respect each other as being different and the real issues that caused me any pain we have discussed. there was, you are right, a lot of pain there but they are now scars that are healing and not gaping wounds!

I know also that alot of the attraction toward my boyfriend was unhealthy. I worked very hard to let go of his abuse and being dependent on him. And although we do have setbacks, we both truly love each other and thank our lucky stars that we work to resolve these issues, because we have both learned so much.

And he has worked very hard also. He is a world away from where he was and I do not wish to lose that quite frankly unless is has to be.

The question is I am not sure that right now it has to be.

Sure if he rolled home drunk or quit his job or started pushing me around there would be no question. but the only thing that he has done is to startdrinking again, moderatley, and not tell me.

I told him outright that because of this I find it very hard to trust him and trust is very important to us both. So the only thing that is making me feel i should end the relationship right now is my lack of trust, not any abuse that is happening becuase it isnt anymore, I would not stand for it.

But trust is like faith isn't it! You don't have anyway to prove someone is true, trust is just your beleif that they are. and I have never in my life been able to belive in soemthing i have no actual proof of, so trust is pretty hard for me also anyway. This is why I cannot belive in god.

This was the way I was riased, always to question everything. TO be able to see both sides of the coin. I found it very amusing at the age of about 5 when i went to school and heard all their relgious teachings! I found it,as a child, very funny that adults could belive in something when there was no evidence to support it. I also would be in such trouble at that age because I would not pray out loud in class. The teacher would tell me off but I could only reply that i did not belive in it and so how could I say it? this annoyed them alot:) but I didn't mean any offense I just could not be hypocritical, my homelife was so different to school, I was encouraged strongly to have my own thoughts and opinions on things. My family would always tell me what the knew about soemthing and then let me make up my own mind about how I felt about it. The i got to school where this way of thinking was just to them plain naught, they wanted me to obey and think what they told me to think.

So this upbringing does couse problems in being able t trust. I can honestly say that in life I know NOTHING for certain because I will never have all the facts and I am not omnipotent. This makes it very hard soemtimes to move forward though!

but it is for this reason that I questionwhether to carry on. whether I have the ability to form a close relationship. I know that no-one would be perfect and maybe that it what I crave!

But to me, the idea that he cold drink and not get drunk was not an option. I naturally assumed that if he did start to drink again then it would be full on. That is why I said I would not go there again. It never occured to me that he could drink but keep it in control.

I have never had any kinds of problems before with drinking. My parents do not have any addiction problems, past boyfriends could drink normally as can I. This was really the first time I had seen someone not be able to control themselves aropund drink.

But I cannot say for certain that it will return to that, so far it hasn't. If he continues like he has been, drinking in moderation, then I really have no porblem with that at all. it is the fear of what MIGHT happen rather than what is happening.

How do you control your fears that your husband will not return to his old ways? that is really the question for me, because now i find that I am in a similar situation to you. So much has moved forward, things have been so much better. Do i relax and enjoy or do I keepup my habit of a lifetime and worry?

If I am currently being abused, then surely so are you? if I should leave then surely you too?

I also take on board your comments about self esteem. This time last year my esteem was at an all time low, but I can truely tell you that i am happier with myself now that i ever have been. I have my own life, hobbies friends, etc but they are all people i choose now for genuine friendship and happiness, not the shallow existance of my previous drug filled life!

Do I answer posts here to raisemy self esteem? Well i hope not! My main motive when writing to people here is that I can impart anything that has helped me onto other people. I may be fooling myself of course! But no one likes to see someone else unhappy if they know something that might help a little. This site helped me so much, i honestly want to return that favour where possible.

As for me as a child being nice to my mother to get her love - NO! we would both be the first to admit to you, that I really at that age did not want her love at all and was quite happy getting my parental love from others in the family who were more like myself.

Now as I have grown i have of course realised that i do want a loving relationship with my mother, hence why I relsoved these issues with her. But i can assure you that i learned any co-dep behaviour very late in life, since the agoraphobia came about not before it. I did not learn t be co-dep with my mother at all, not at that age, anyway.

it was maily the agoraphobia that cuased me to be so dependent on others that i fell into the people pleasing cycle, and the agoraphobia was set in motion by a specific traumatic event in my twenties.
I do not deny of course that all of what you say went n inthe subconcious, may be it did. but any co-dep patterned of behaviour cmae to me only in the last few years. no doubt subconciously as a child i wanted a relationship with my mother, but i did nothing at that age to get that love, quite the opposite i pushed her away.

So the tendency to become co-dep of course must have been there all along. But it was not those years where i learned to be co-dep, because i wasn't. the time when it manifested itself and became real was much later.

As for massage, My mum and I go for free reflexology treatments at the local college, guinea pigs for the students to practice on. I went last noght to one and it was wonderful. My mum has booked one of the ladies to come over to our house and give us both a massage next week - SO, we are already doing that!! youa re so right about massage and how our bodys turn emotional pain into pysical pain.

SO brenda, forgive me if i sound like i am disputing what you say, I think a lot of what you say is the truth, but maybe for me as i was last year. and my innermost fears are that i will return to being that person, but i do know that i have worked at least some of the stuff you are saying out already. But i really would like toknow what you feel is different between the way your husband is now and my B/F, becuase to me it sounds as though they are both recognising their drink problem and trying to meoderate, can you see soemthing here that i don't? please let me know.

anyway, thanks again for your time, i apologise that i don't accept everything you say, but i am aware that i may be fooling myself anyway! but i really appreciate your words of wisdom. They have given me alot to think over, and maybe as i process them over the next few days, there may be something that clicks into place somewhere. There may be other things that i think " no, it is nt that at all" either way, it helps - thank you.

I don't care at all, if one day i post up a thread saying how wrong and stupid i was about someone else like my B/F. But i do care if i post a thread saying how wrong i was about myself! If i project my fears onto other people and lose out through that, or if i deny my anger of whatever. I need to kno myself first and foremost.

Hugs
Hazza

May 24, 2000
7:00 am
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Brenda..having read your post to vositor I am worried that you have had a major incident at home.
Is everything okay with you?

May 24, 2000
11:45 am
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yea brenda .. i hope everything is fine..? (i thought i would ask u before but i was afraid of saying too much)

May 24, 2000
1:17 pm
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Hazza, I CAN trust my husband. Trust, to me is not blind faith, but earned trust in self and loved ones.
I always had problems with trust in my relationships but I no longer do.
I trust that my husband will NEVER raise a hand to me again, I trust that my husband will drink an occasional wine or beer when we go out to eat and NOT with others, I trust that my husband is a completely different man, I trust and do not fear anything much any more, especially him going back to his "old ways" because my happiness does not depend upon him and his actions but my happiness and peace is real and lies within me now.
I am not afraid to be alone. I am not afraid to seperate ( which is not ending the relationship ) if the trust is broken, I am not afraid to face the future as a single parent.
Hazza, abusing your trust is abuse, especially when it comes to an addict, you still show strong codep characteristics. I know I may sound high and mighty, but I do not want to come off this way, I am telling you the straight goods, I do not feel my relationship is like yours. I do not feel I am like you. We are completely different people with completely different relationships but we both have gone through the throws of abuse and codependency. I feel, in my case, facing my fear, putting my children and myself first and the sheer grace of god WHICH IS VERY REAL FOR ME was what helped me get out of the clutches of "what ifs" and start to really take a look at my own personal needs, feelings and honor them with every bone in my body. As soon as I started to do this and it was a genuine positive thing that everyone saw and felt, people really started to treat me with the same respect and love.
Sometimes, I have little fear slips, but they are short lasted and I can work them through on my own and my partner sees this and is inspired to work his through and we quickly come back together again.
I tell you, its like night and day.
Healing and growth are very real, it is not a waste of time to do all this inner work, the more painful it is, the more rewarding it will be.
It is the reason we are here.
God bless Hazza

May 24, 2000
1:18 pm
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Id rather not talk about the visitor incident, but I would like to offer my wholehearted apologies to her. I cant explain any more. No, home life is fine and so am i ..thanks for the concern.

May 24, 2000
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hazza, you blame yourself for not having a relationshisp with your mother. Why would a child who was loved and cared for not want a close relationship? You say you were "stubborn" well this is usually said of a child who asserts herself against boundary violations from parents...good for you.
Also, have you really emotionally purged and cleansed yourself of all anger/rage regarding the way you were treated/neglected by your mother ( a childs most imp parent ) "Without being rageful, it is imp to talk to each person in your family openly about your issues and your recovery. I did this with my mother, I invited her to choose to be in a relationshipwith me or discontinue the relationship, but I set the boundary: I would not be in a relationship with her and deny, any longer, the abuse that had taken place. I would not go back to the way I was and be part of the system on that basis"
I suggest you do the same if you havent already, panic disorder and anxiety disorder is STRONGLY RELATED TO DENYING AND SUPPRESSING YOUR STRONG FEELINGS OF ANGER, FEAR AND POWERLESSNESS AROUND THOSE WHO MATTER THE MOST AND THOSE WHO HAVE MISTREATED YOU. Making excuses for thsoe who have harmed us is very codep and denying them is also.
allowing your partner to have his path and issues and learning to have our own is how we learn to own our power and take responsibility for ourselves and our conduct in relationships. I understand how i raged, shamed and engaged in controling behaviors to control my partner and others who I felt were ruining my life, I took full responsibility for MY life and MY happiness, letting go is the hardest thing, but it is the only way to your own peace. I beleive that everything inside, right down to my cells, has changed as the result of dealing with my own issues. I will never lose myself again...I just want the same for you Hazza, and all others who are struggling with similar issues.
god bless

May 24, 2000
9:38 pm
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Brenda: Long time...You are like a colt who has found her legs, frisky and raring to get over the first hurdle, then the next and the next. I, for one, am heartened that you have found your spunk. That child of yours is going to come out with a strong spirit. As a colt does, you will learn to pace your growth and still make the hurdles you seek to get over. Be true to yourself.

Hazza: Hey hon! How's the weather over the water? Change does take a while to settle in, doesn't it. Once it does, its as if that which you needed to change never even was a part of your life, until one of those pesky tests come along just to see if we're paying attention. Spirit is full of them. I have had many this past week. Not regarding addictions of the past, but of my work on ego and tolerance. I really hate failing tests. Back to the inner classroom for me.

Anyone know how to relieve a nasty headache from whiplash? Its been over a month of one headache and I am having a hard time holding onto my sense of humor...May I be at peace, may I not suffer. May you be at peace, may you not suffer. May we all be at peace, may we all not suffer.

May 25, 2000
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Brenda,
I can assure you that I dont blame myself for any past problems with my mother! Maybe I didn't explain well enough, but She and I have resolved these issues. Just as you said, I reached the point in my relationship with her were I would not deny the truth of what happened. But that meant that I had to face to truth and that means ALL sides to the story. I had to look not only at her and what needs of mine she neglected, but also look at her life, at why she was the way she was and ACCEPT the reality of her and of life.

Rage is just one stage of resolving these issues. Understanding is another and it is not being co-dep to look at reasonswhy people behave the way they do, it is fundemental to growth.

Also, like you, i do not fear seperation anymore, I am well beyond that. You are right in when you say, abusing trust is abuse. But people are weak at times, and I would not wish ever to become someone who incapable of forgiveness of someone elses mistakes, should they be just that.

There is a difference between someone making a mistake or error of judgement and someone who diliberately misleads someone.

You are very lucky to feel so sure of your husband. I personally cannot feel that sure of anything ever in life! becuase the future is unwritten. But I guess again,that comes down to wether or not you are the type of person capable of "faith" as a concept.

I do not know what the future holds for me, but I do not fear for myself as being co-dep anymore. I have done too much work on that! to apply the term too broadly would make everything anyone ever says, does or thinks as being co-dep. But at its core, it is to live your life through another rather than yourself. I live my life now and Although as spirit rightly says therea re tests along the way, I know that I will be fine.

My concern over the drinking was whether or not to stick to my past boundary or to modify it. Danger area of course. Isn't modifying your boundaries all what being co-dep is all about? well yes it is. But maybe I should explain what that boundary meant to me.

"no drinking" actually meant not being brunk and aggressive and violent. that was the past problem. and that particular part has not happened, so the boundary is not broken. My fears that something may happen is actually part of me that i think i will always have difficulty in stopping! now I know that it is highly unlikely that he will ever abuse me in this way again. We came far too close to losing each other. he and i would be heartbroken if that happened, but we both know it would have to happen if he ever abused me in that way. SO we don't let it happen. But i am not the sort of person who can guareentee anything, no more that I can guarentee that I wouldn't one day abuse him and his trust. I hope not, but how can I say anything for certain? that is just the way I am about everything. The one certainty in life is that there are no certainties.

I hope that your trust in your husband is not misplaced. But I admire you for being able to believe in ANYTHING 100% that is a big difference between us both, i guess.

I also dispute about making excuses for people. the is a difference in making excuses for someone (rather than them taking responsibility fr ther actions,) or understanding the reasons WHY someone is the way they are.To me understanding is essential, with all aspects of life, I need to see the background to things. I do not and NEVER will excuse abusive behaviour towards me. Any abuse shown to me s wrong and I have no hesitation these days in explaining to my partner, mother or whoever if they have wronged me. the way I was treated in the past my my B/F, was of HIS doing, he bullied, he raged etc. There would be NO QUESTION of us still being together if he did not fully accept his responsibility and realise that he chose to act that way. Just as I have to accept my part in allowing that cycle to continue for too long also.
BUT, that doesn't mean that I have no understanding of WHY he made those bad choices. Just like, I expect, you understand WHY your husband made the choices he made in the past - it doesn't mean it is my fault at all - it isn't!! But we must always understand why that person felt the way they did and acted the way they did.

Peace
Haz

May 25, 2000
1:35 pm
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Dear Hazza:
I can tell you this, if you have not expressed rage, anger and sadness at the treatment from your original abusor and your subsequent abusors BEFORE YOU EXPRESSED UNDERSTANDING AND FORGIVENESS, then I can guarantee you, you have suppressed these feelings.
I too, like you, sought to forgive and understand far too early, only to find out my unresolved and unexpressed emotions were presenting themselves in ways that were harming and preventing me from going forward in healing and growth, and were in fact making themselves known through anxiety, high stress reactions and explosions with innocent people
It is normal for us caretakers to be so "understanding" and not get angry when we should and get angry when we shouldnt...do you understand Hazza?
I suggest to you that your extreme agoraphobia and anxiety may be present because you are not taking care of your feelings, thoughts or YOUR needs...forget his for now.
Look, he LIED to you.
He betrayed you, arent you pissed?
Im pissed off for you.
HYow do you know what hes doing at these pubs? He could be getting fall down drunk, he could be abusing other people, he could be driving home drunk, he could be hitting on other women.
You are feeling defensive with the words I am putting to you, I dont want to criticise you, I just want you to learn how to get your own life Hazza, to recover your health and happiness. It is possible.
I know it is terrifying to be alone when you are agoraphobic and codep.
My words must really be threatening to you.
I am not 100 percent sure about my husband not drinking again, what I really mean is, I am 100 percent sure that I am not gonna go into denial about it and make excuses about it again. This was not a long standing thing for him, he hardly drank anything at all a year to 18 mos ago.
He has cut back on the severe workaholism down to normal hours, he says this has taken a lot of stress and pressure off of him. we have hired more people to take on thework he felt only "he could do" this is control. We talk about everything now.
If we have a disagreement, it is resolved quickly and there is no need to raise voices, personally attack or threatening.. I do not participate in this, the negative energy dynamic is no longer there. It took two.
I know for 100 percent, I will no longer go through the pain and suffering that I went through with past people ever again, therefore I can say, knowing his love for us, that there is a great chance he will not also. I stay positive and see the positive in my husband, my life and everyday. I have a gratitude journal that I work each day. I have an attitude that I cultivate each day, in positivity, optimism and faith. This does not mean that I discount the negative, but I do not dwell on the negative, I focus on the positive and build upon it until the situation turns positive..understand?
If he fell back, it would devastate me because he is my husband and we are deeply bonded, especially now. He is the father of my children, and he has become a very attentive loving father which makes me so happy and proud.
BUT, I WILL NOT LET HIM TAKE ME DOWN WITH HIM. I know, as much as it hurts, the best thing that I could do, is to leave him to his own course of action, and not manipulate, control or coerce him into the way I want him to be in order for us to be happy. I respect and accept him, flaws and all. We have come a long way together, but I will NOT ENABLE HIM BY MAKING EXCUSES, OR LETTING HIM MISTREAT OR HURT US..EVER AGAIN.
Thats where the 100 percent stuff comes from....
Its taking responsibility for MY life and the happiness of my children and I.
Hazza, its as if I fell over an edge and surrendered somewhere and my spirit and god caught me and told me this is where I needed to be...forever. I let go and I let god.
It will happen for you too, when the time is right. Time is different for everyone, when you have hurt enough, when your soul is calling out to you strong enough, your time will come.
I honor and respect you for your courage and love. god bless

Oh spirit, thankyou for the positive comment and affirmation. Blessings to you dear one.

May 25, 2000
1:41 pm
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Spirit, you have been so kind and giving to everyone else, what is causing YOUR headaches? How is YOUR life going? Can we be of support to you?
I get headaches when I obsess or ruminate over something that I can not control, I have learned to really stop doing this. The best thing that I could do to rid myself of a headache was stretch out the muscles of my neck with some peppermint balm and drink some peppermint tea. Coffee is supposed to restrict the blood vessels and help too, i dont drink the stuff.
Some deep breathing and progessive muscle relaxation does wonders. good luck

May 25, 2000
8:32 pm
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Spirit...headache from whiplash..

I suggest a competent chiropractor.

The way to know a goodone? It won't take more than 1-2 vsits to be sure if there is a problem with bone alignment and no more than 5-6 visits (in an extreme casee) to find relief. My daughter had relief after 2 visits but went twice more to ensure the bones were staying in the correct alignment.

May 26, 2000
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Hi Brenda,
I feel we are getting into a "brodc" style discussion here!

No your words are not offensive to me at all. I understand what you are saying, but those words are relevent to me a few stages back inrecovery not now.

I must of not explained myself well enough i guess. Of course the anger comes first when resolving abuse issues. And yes in the past, I supressed that anger.
But my issues with my mother and partner are healing now because I have released that anger and moved on to the healing. it would be impossible to move on without expressing that anger. I certainly do not hold that in anymore! let me tell you.

I understand a little more about what you mean about trusting your husband now. This trust I have also, the trust in YOURSELF not ever going down that trapped road again.

As for your suggestions as to what he may be doing whilst at the pub, I have none of those worries. You could worry about those things if you were with ANYONE. those fears are quite common, but they are always possible because no one can CONTROL another.

The only fear I have related to him specifically is that he will become addicted to drinking in the form of BINGE drinking again. But again, that is a natural concern, just as you will always have that fear at the back of your mind, a fear that it COULD happen, there are no guareentees. It is not a fear that I would not know, He has never kept something that big from me, When he had these problems, it was me he turned to for help, plus he is actually a very moral person! He would not wish to be in relationship with secrets himself. Both of us truley value each other.

Yes, i was pissed off at him for not telling me! and I told him so. But only because he did not tell me sooner. The reality is that over the past 3-4 months he has had about 5 beers. Then he told me, he wanted to make sure in himself that he could control himself, this is his reasoning behind his actions. But if he goes back down that path again that is his business. Right now things are still really good and there has been no problem so I am not overly concerned.

I think it is natural as we go down this path to see co-dep triats everywhere we look. I know that when i read some of your posts i naturally feel "oh, she is being co-dep there" or "ooh, there is some anger denial going on there" so I can quite understand how you see the same in my situation.

But I think we have both learned along the way, when we chose to "work out not walk out" that the change is necessary in our own hearts and minds. it is our attitude that changes. Just as you say, about having your own life and not allowing any other person to control your happiness anymore.

We will always have blips and the fear of what might happen rather than what is happening,this is why you started this thread! but the progress is lways there once we have that attitude change.

I so understand your analogy of the falling of a cliff. This too is how I felt when I realised my co-dep nature and started on change. My life has turned around so much now, that I know I would never go back to the way things were before. And it feels great doesn't it!

Your comments on agoraphobia. Interesting! I personally do not buy into the fruedian thinking in what you say. I agree totally that unresolved issues can cause anxiety and depression in people. But agoraphbia is a very specific condition. Part ot the problem we have in getting suitable treatment is that far too many doctors still belive it is primarily an emotionally based pyschological condition.

It actually has its basis in the survival part of our biological make up - I do a lot of work with an organisation that deals with agoraphobia and the one constant in this condition is that it is a bodily response to stress. Now of course that makes people who have had traumatic upbringings obviously ideal candidates for the condition. But there is no eveidence that unresolved emotional problems have any place inbeing labled as the CAUSE. This simply isn't so. there may be a genetic basis to it in the way that people deal with stress. We all have different threasholds. I know of many fellow sufferers who have very happy lives and childhoods who still suffer, but some of them, if fact most of them, have a relative - maybe an aunt or cousin etc who also suffer.

Emotional problems can bring on periods of agoraphobia in a phobic person. But there is not so much a cause really anyway. just like we cannot say that emotional problems CAUSE epilepsy, yet certain emotional triggers can bring on an attack. There is no common background with agoraphobia, this is why the doctors have failed so miserably at finding help for it, because they ave been looking in the wrong place!

They have even conducted experiments to "make" cats into agoraphbics! it is a conditioning effect. If something bad happens to you someplace some people still go there the next time and no problem, others will AVOID that situation again because their body has a physical stress reaction, and thus the cycle begins. They may be this way because of a traumatic upbringing of course, but that is all you can say, because many many people have had no traumas and still developed the condition. Just as many trauma victims do NOT develop the condition. And i don't think upbringing is really a consideration for cats anyway!

But this misconception that is it CAUSED by emotional issues is rife! even amonst Doctors. But luckily there are getting more and more people out there who do have experience with phobias, and the answer really does lie through understanding the BIOLOGY rather than the PYSCHOLOGY of the mind and body.
All phobias are a learned condition, and upbringing plays a vital part of course, as does your genetic dispostion to stress handling. You can certainly LEARN to behave more phobicly if you have been brought up around phobic people. But phobias are not an offshoot of seperate emotional problems, except maybe specific traumatic events.

The difference is so slight but so important in peoples understanding and really it all becomes academic. At the end of the day very few people if any have found sucess through traditional councelling or whatever for phobias, certainly none of the many people I have worked with. The only treatment that works is gradual exposure and relaxation therapies, which are highly suscessful.

Many people, when they first discover that there problem is agoraphobia, come to the organisation I work with saying "right, if I can find the CAUSE then I will be able to get over it" We have to explain to them that often there is no cause, we cannot back track to when someone was 5 yrs old and find some "reason" and then once they understand that it will all dissapear. It simply doesn't work that way. we all wish it did! then we could cure it overnight!!
Often there is no cause, just a number of events that happened to invoke the avoidance cycle.

The issue really is to deal with the effects of agoraphobia and learn how to overcome it. That is the way forward, nothing to do with unresolved issues at all. But unfortunately this misconception often stops people who suffer finding the help that they can easily get when they start looking in the right place.

People often feel that if they resolve some great emotional issues int heir life then there agoraphibia will dissapear. It is so sad because yes, they may have issues and yes that may make then more prone to phobias. BUT it does not mean that resolving those issues will stop the phobia, great - resolve any issues, that is healthy. But the phobia is still there, in them just as is with people with no issues.

I have spoken to people who were sent for concelling due to their phobias. when they insisted that there was nothing wrong in their lives emotionally other that the anxiety disorder. One woman went through councelling because she was told by her doctor it would "cure" her. She knew no better than to trust this "diagnosis" . The councellor insisted that she had marital problems, when she didn't. Suggested to her that she must have been sexually abused as a child - she hadn't. But he insisted she MUST have been, even arranged a consultation with a hypnotherapst to "FIND the hidden abuse" -nothing there to find. And because this woman though that all this was necessary she continued with the treatment, only to become deeply upset as the weeks wore on. When she finaly found the right help and stopped with the "psychological" approach, she began acouse of gradual exposure therapy, she was able to gradually expand her world and move around freer than she had done in years. This is not only an example of bad therapy but an example of using the wrong treatment through ignorance.

This is why is is so important to explain that there is a difference.

You say that "I suggest to you that your extreme agoraphobia and anxiety may be present because you are not taking care of your feelings, thoughts or YOUR needs..." This can and may be true to an extent. But the only extent is that when a sufferer is emotionally stressed then they may find that their phobia is worse than usual. That is the link. Phobias are AFFECTED by these issues but NOT CAUSED by them - although to take care of our own needs is as you say vital for our happiness and when a phobic person is happy, it is easierfor them to do the work on their phobia. But that is where recovery lies. In hard work and retraining the mind. IN myself, since I started to live my life for me and be myself again, it has been much easier for me to do the work on my phobias. I have the energy to focus on myself. But the only treatment is the work you do to overcome the phobias, the do not magically dissappear if you solve your emotional problems. Many people have overcome their phobias despite still having emotional problems too. it is about understanding the condition and finding the right treatment.

I am sorry to go on so long about this, but there is such ignorance about phobias andso many people are suffering because of this ignorance, when there is a way that they can get help if they know what the right help is. That is why I have to jump on any oppotunity to explain, because eventually if there is enough info out there people will start to understand and the myths will die out.
Just like we now understand so much about conditions like PMS, depression or Seasonal Affective Disorder,the list goes on. When once sufferes of those conditions would be told "it doesn't exist" or "it is all in your mind" now they are no longer treated like timewasters and they can find treatments that work.

The same could happen with phobias, we could stop wasting our time looking for answers where they don't exist and instead publicise the treatments that actually work so that people can regain their lives.

Peace
Hazza

May 26, 2000
8:31 am
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Hazza: You are an excellent example of passing on to others what you have learned through the suffering you endured. Not only does the passing on of lessons learned help others, but it also reinforces in us how far we have traveled. Thank you for the information you have shared on phobias. You are right, sometimes there is no explanation or known cause, it just is. Blame seems to be the way of many therapists in treating their clients. It can be very hard for some to accept that, for whatever reason, they have developed a phobia, and now its time to roll up their sleeves and get down to work correcting that part of them which has gone awry. Keep up the cause, Hazza.

Janes: Thank you for the suggestion. I will check into that avenue soonest.

May peace be ours through understanding each other.

May 26, 2000
9:14 am
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Thanks spirit,

I am glad what I said makes sense to someone! it is so hard to explain the subtle differences.

Sorry to hear about your headaches. I get very bad headaches sometimes when my neck gets tense. I wish I had the answer, all I do know is that is you take painkillers too regularly they can cause monster headaches, so best to avoid them where possible!

Peace all
Hazza

May 26, 2000
2:23 pm
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wow, well Hazza, I can say that I thought I had dealt with my emotions and the suppression and neglect of them...way back, but I hadnt. The way I could tell, was from the symptoms my mind and body were presenting me with...ANXIETY, PANIC, PHOBIA, all warning signals, thank god, that I was ignoring my feelings, my unresolved business and my needs..I am a firm advocate of relating anxiety disorders to realm of the emotions, traumas, abuse, emotional distress, suppressed grief/anger, disconnectedness and neglect of self and soul CAUSING THIS EPIDEMIC OF ANXIETY AND STRESS DISORDERS IN OUR SOCIETY, THIS WAS THE CAUSE FOR ME and millions of others....
I cured myself. I was hoping that you would perhaps even consider and benefit from my experience and words....It certainly is not going to stop me from trying to guide others with my own experiences.
I really have little fear about my partner drinking, he has really transformed..like I say, night and day, as have I. I also do not fear infidelity nor do I fear him raising a hand to me again.
God brought us together for this very reason.
I am so proud of both of us.
Unlike Broc, I am speaking from STRONG personal experience, and from soul not from ego.

May 26, 2000
4:47 pm
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THOUGHTS CAUSE EMOTIONS, EMOTIONS CAUSE BODY SENSATIONS, REACTIONS AND ILLNESS OR HEALTH...IMMUNOLOGY, BODY/MIND CONNECTION, VERY WELL RECOGNISED HERE IN THE STATES, BUT ONLY JUST BEING TAKEN SERIOUSLY.
THE STUDY OF THE BODY AND NOT THE SPIRIT IS LIKE STUDYING THE PETALS OF A FLOWER BUT NOT THE SEED

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