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Dear Cici
December 13, 1999
5:42 am
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hazza
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Hey Cici,
You are describing some of my feelings there too, i don't quite understand them in myself yet either, but i understand some of what you are saying.
I have no knowledge of ever having being sexually abused, when i lost my virginity it was with someone i loved and it was fun and i don't regret it at all, but i too have a feeling of being used if i engage in certain acts and don't do them, some stuff just repulses me i guess,
i find in relationships that when someone has let me down in any way, i no longer feel any sexual attraction to them and if they make advances to me i feel that they are using me. There is something there that only lets me make love to someone things are perfect i guess, i think depression and familiarity play a part too. So i don't know what is going on there, but i long for love and fun to be a part of it and if i feel that isn't there i kinda weird out.
So doctor, what do you think?
I too have great difficulty trusting woman, until recently, having dumped most of my friends all my friends were men, so although i feel more comfortable with men, i hate it when i feel in a relationship that the only way they gauge how a relationship is going is by sex. It makes me shut off completely. I think i see them as desperate and controlled by hormones and then i lose respect for them as humans somewhat?
Weird thing is i have spoke to so many women who feel the same way, i don't even feel weird about it anymore, i just wish i wasn't so fussy i guess!
Like with my current BF, things were really great between us but 2 things ruined it, 1 he was often drunk, i didn't like it, 2 he is uncommunicative, i guess I give up if don't get some feedback, but why does my mind seem to take it all so seriously, like if it isn't perfect i feel im being exploited in some way?
When i have the strenghth and incentive i guess i better deal with this one too!

Good luck with the exams, im sure you will do really well.

Peace
Hazza

December 14, 1999
10:58 am
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Cici
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Hey Hazza,

I think women have emotions tied up with sex a lot more than men do. I used to be able to just have sex anonymously with men. There was a period in my life where I was very..er..open (how's that?) with my sexuality. After I met my current boyfriend, though, things changed. I started having all these emotions associated with sex. And If I didn't feel happy or right, I couldn't even kiss him!

But that evolved with time. As I began to grow used to being with him, as he became more part of my life, I grew more attached. It's so bizarre, when I think about it, because I am definately NOT a clingy person. I'm all about independence and freedom. But now I just enjoy that he's out there in the world. His existence makes me happy. (cheesy!!!) Blah!

December 14, 1999
2:03 pm
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BROC
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Cici,

Just a thought from the student of this stuff.... DOn't trust woman. Well, your mom knew of the molestation. She was your protector, right!? She didn't protect you. She just took you out of the class. Maybe thats why.

Also, I would have to disagree with your therapist on repressing those memories. It goes against every pych. principle out there....doesn't it.

We have all been discussing our issues for some time now. These issues orginated from our childhood, and 99% are unconscious. Well, isn't that what your dealing with? YES! We have learned that those unconscious issues wreck havoc on our lives! They are our issues. And what do issues do if left unresloved? Force us to reapeat our patterns of behavior. After all, its our issues that have shaped our behavior. I bet you a million bucks you access that shit in your head and work through it, many things in your life with improve.

Just my two cents.

Broc

December 15, 1999
10:53 am
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Cici
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Broc,

Hey what's up? Long time no see. I actually never thought of the issue like that. The therapist said that often in times of extreme stress, fear or terror the conscious mind actually shuts down. Thus, the explanation of people blacking out, or not even remembering heroic deeds they did in times of stress. The primitive parts of the brain take over, allowingyou to function and live through the trauma.

I don't know how I would access the memories. I remember up to and right after the incidents...just not the assaults or acts of molestation themselves. To be honest, even thinking about them gives me the willies. I feel disgusted with myself, my own sexuality. I hate thinking about it so I usually just don't. But sometimes, I get weird feelings during sex. Thoughts pop into my head that just should NOT be there. It freaks me out.

December 15, 1999
10:03 pm
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Angelwings
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get help around that issue cici..

December 27, 1999
12:34 pm
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BROC
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Cici,

Interesting debate on "Should I stay of go, only I know"

What is YOUR opinion?

Broc

December 28, 1999
1:33 pm
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Cici
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Hey Broc...

I dunno. About the whole codep issue, I mean, does anyone really know the meaning of the word? It really isn't a word at all. It was created, by psychologists. Psychology (although I'm studying the field) is a very strange area of study. It hasn't really been regulated by any state or national boards...in Washington you can become a therapist if you take a test and pay $50. So? So there's no way of saying this author is more right than that author. Even psychological theorists don't agree. Behaviorists will say this caused your problem, Cognitive psych's will say that's you're problem. Humanist existentialists will say both of the others are wrong and you're just experiencing angst at the thought of dying!

What does this have to do with the debate? Weeeelll...I'm just saying if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think everyone has the traits described by codep, to some extent. And yet some people are able to have meaningful relationships that are fulfilling and wonderful, including conflicts and arguments. It's about personal choice, isn't it?

I don't know. I don't claim to be the guru of personal fulfillment. God knows I am flawed, I have made mistakes, bad things have happened in my life. I've seen a man profoundly disturbed by memories of death all around him with PTSD have a dysfunctional yet functional relatinoship. My dad says it's not about being psychologically healthy. It's about finding someone with compatible dysfuntions (ha ha ha).

Also...how do we know when we're not codep anymore? What IS codep? Everyone has a different definition! Schools of thought in psychology are like different sects in religion. People hold fast to their personal beliefs and get pissed when someone says they're wrong. I mean, look at Bosnia for chrissake! And students of the psyche can sometimes be rather evangelical: "Come to my faith, it's the right faith!"

I suppose this is not really an answer. But, as you like to say, "that's my two cents!"

luv C.

December 28, 1999
1:52 pm
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eve
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Hi Cici,
brilliant answer! Doesn't this remind you of what I wrote about beliefs and theories in man's search III? And shouldn't psychology be more like a theory than a belief? Eve

December 29, 1999
4:15 pm
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BROC
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Cici-

Not willingly to take a stand on a theory? As for me, well, I suppose maybe I know to much. For about a year know I have lived this stuff. Read, studied, group, individual therapy, you name it. Pia Mellody workshops, hey, I can see it a mile away.

Anyway, in twelve months I have only heard ONE person say it isn't so, so, I will take that, wad it up, and toss it in the fluke pile. hee hee

Hope you new years goes great. No no no's. You know what I mean?

Love,
Broc

December 30, 1999
11:10 am
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Cici
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No, Broc, no no no's (ha HAAA ha ha).

I didn't not take an ideological stand. I just took the Unitarian Universalist route and said every school of thought in psychology has some basis in pathology of the human psyche. The fact that people react by restating their belief system just reinforces my theory about psychological theory and religions!

Freud detected problems in the way people coped with reality, but in a different way from Jung, and so on and so forth. I can't sit back and say this thepry is right, this is wrong. How the hell do I know? Reading books, attending lectures, studying psychology as I have for the past three years and being exposed to professors who espouse different belief systems, i can only accept the different theories and use a wide knowledge base to place my assumptions on.

So some writers talk about codependency, others disregard it. It comes down to whatever feels real to you. And if you are happy and fulfilled in your relaitonship, you aren't abused, you're strong and independent, what the hell is wrong with that?!

You don't have to be into the whole self-help thing to have a healthy relationship. I mean, some people go their whole lives without considering that issue. I'm thinking of people in India, Europe, Asia...it's funny how Western cultures have started emphasizing this. Does that mean that asian couples are all entirely dysfunctional?

January 5, 2000
7:09 pm
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BROC
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CICI,

Your quote:

For me, things went wrong in my life because I made certain choices. These choices weren't out of my hands...they were fully under my control. They were a manifestation of internal conflict. Once I addressed my internal strife, everything suddenly fell into place. Or rather, comfortably out of place, like pearls off a string.

By this, are you saying that once you quit blaming everything outside of yourself for your problems, and turned the focus inward, fixing the internal conflict, that you life suddenly fell into place for the better?

Just a little clarification. I was with you until the "Comfortably out of place" came up, and that threw me.

Sorry for being a dope.

Broc

January 6, 2000
10:40 am
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Cici
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Not a dope, Broc. Curiosity is not bad! Ummm, I said "comfortably out of place" because although I used to persue order and control in my life like my mother (perfectionist, anyone?) I have begun to be comfortable with things out of place.

Granted, leaving your bills unpaid or whatever is bad, but hell, when you're a poor college student, you don't usually know when your next meal is coming anyway!! I guess I started going by the serenity prayer...

"God grant me the strength to change what I can change and the ability to accept what i cannot change" or something liek that (ha ha...don't knwo exact words).

That's what i meant by out of place. Your analysis is completely right.

January 6, 2000
7:55 pm
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BROC
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CICI,

Thank you my dear!

How have you been?

Broc

January 10, 2000
1:00 pm
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Cici
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I have been good. school starts today, and I'm taking a full load of classes for the first time in a year and a half! I'm excited about them, too. Social psych, physiological psych, the psychology of sex, men and fatherhood and statistics. Does this sound like too much psychology to you?! Ha ha.

So my life is really uneventful. My boyfriend met my parents over the break and I met his. It's all very domestic. It's bizarre, really. I feel way too settled to be 20.

Anyways, how is your life going? How are things with your sig. other?

January 10, 2000
3:02 pm
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BROC
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They are good. Its weird still. I feel....bored. Well, not really, but thats the only word to describe it. No chaos. No controlling, manipulstion, no games. And on occassion when we start, we immediately see it, acknowledge it, and laugh about it. Guess all this therapy stuff really works! yeah!

Anyway, she and I go to our monday night rel. meetings. Really neat. I have my wed. night coda meeting, and I have one on one therpay once a week. So, about three hours of fixing on me, with some reading mixed in there.

I am really making strides. Up until a few weeks ago, I just didn't fully believe in all the phych. stuff. You know, repeating patterns, chaos, control, codependency, etc. I thought that the problems with my ex. (Shannon), and my old frieds were all ME! Afterall, they still hung around each other, and got rid of me. I was the problem, right? Well, no. I finally figured out that when you want to change, people, especially those close to you resist it. They don't want anything to change, because that makes things screwy. The status quo, you know. And in the event you keep after it, people leave you because it conflicts with their world too much. Make sense?

Well, they are fucked up. And yes, all 7 of them are wrong and I am right. Things needed changing. Yes, I did some things wrong. But so did they. Codependents flock together. Sick attracks sick. unhealthy attractrs unhealthy. BIRDS OF A FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER! They shunned me. It hurt like hell. But I survived, and too bad for them. I have went from being angry with them, like you were with your best friend that sleopt with your ex beau, to feeling sorry for them. How sad to live life the way that they do. How sad. what a waste. And in my prayers I thank god for bringing them into my life, for letting me see the light, and for going through the pain I did. Because if I hadn't, I wouldn't be where I am now. At a place of peace, and serenity like I never knew was possible.

I now beleive. Things do happen the way I have been taught.

If we don't change, our life will never ever change. We will keep doing the same things over and over, living the same shit over and over until we either wake up, get some help (THERAPY!) and change, or die. No other way around it.

Sorry to ramble.

Broc

January 18, 2000
9:07 am
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Cici
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I'm taking a class you might be interested in, BROC. It's called "men, sex and fatherhood." and it's about the sociology of men and sexuality. very ineresting stuff. I'm reading a book right now called "The Male Heterosexual" and it addresses the changing roleofmen in society. I've been reading about everything from biological development to violent sex crimes. Although it's a bit wordy, it's a good overall read. It's by Larry A. Morris.

Another good one is "What Women Want - What Men Want: Why the Sexes still see love & Commitment so Differently" by John Townsend, a cultural anthropologist.

Just so you know!

February 3, 2000
11:59 am
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Hey - I just read all of this thread and I just have to say that most of you sound like you are young adults and I just want to let you all know that you are discovering at a very young age something that took me 40 years to realize. Bravo to all of you. Be proud of yourselves and know that once you have the knowledge you can no longer accept any lies. You are all a lot healthier than you give yourselves credit for. I know.... I have lived a long time!! I see the wisdom in your seeking meaning and understanding of your lives. I don't know if any of you are still posting here. The last date was jan 18 and it is now feb 3. Hope you check back now and then... I really am amazed at the bravery all of you have shown in taking control of your own lives. Please don't be too hard on yourselves because life is LOOONG and you don't have to "get it ALL" right now. Experience will show you so much - and don't be afraid of setbacks, afteral,l you are all still human. Give yourselves a well deserved round of applause - you really do have your acts together. Hang in there... It does get better... 🙂 We never stop learning - I love learning from the younger generation, we are never too old to learn something new.... Take care of yourselves. You are all very bright and have wonderful futures in store for yourselves. Mark my words... You are all going to be okay!

Cleo's

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