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Dear Cici
November 22, 1999
1:47 pm
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BROC
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Cici,

Whats your story?

Mine I already posted back on August 28 of this year. The thread is titled "My story, kind of long, need some advice!"

Just curious. I really like your responses. You sound very knowledgeable.

Thanks.

Broc

November 23, 1999
9:55 am
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lost soul
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Hi Broc, Yes,yes, I read your threads in August.BY reading it , it flashes me back some memories.Good to see that you are stronger and better now!

I use to follow your thread but NOT to wise to comment, just keep it to myself.
Now, I have seen a great improvement IN you. BRAVO!!!!

cheers!!!!!!

November 23, 1999
10:44 am
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My story? Hmmm...

I started posting here in late August. I was pretty much a drug addict. I ate ecstasy frequently, LSD, shrooms, mescaline, peyote, there were a few inhalants I dabbled in, of course smoked pot, then started gettting into coke and heroin. I was confused about my situation (having dropped out of college in the spring of this year...now I'm back part time), needed guidance, like everyone who comes here. I suppose I sought solace in the anonymity of the internet, yes?

I had been that way for about a year, which began with alocohol addiction. I was dating a drug dealer...which meant free drugs. I came from a relatively good family, a caring white father, an over-controlling, sometimes cruel asian mother. I had an identity conflict, like most bi-racials. I was molested at 5, sexually assaulted at 12, you know the spiel.

Funny enough, I graduated HS with a 4.7 wieghted GPA. I went to a college preperatory program for the "gifted." I have been interested in philosophy since I was very young. My father introduced me to Aristotle and Plato before middle school; my mother made me read Maslow and Rogers, psychologists. In high school I read de Beauvoir, Satre, Camus, Kafka, Frankl (to name my favorite existentialists!). I had a very old-fashioned, liberal-arts styled education.

I think being on this site has been good for me. I started going to NA meetings, moved in with my parents, moved out of my parents' (ha ha). I have my life somewhat under control. I have two jobs, not because I really need them, but because working 12 hours a day keeps me busy, away from drugs. I am a counseling psychology major. My boyfriend stopped dealing for me, which I thought was nice, although I didn't ask it of him.

I was surprised, BROC, when you questioned my sexual identity! Man or woman...one wonders? I'm just words strung together on your computer screen, you know. 😉

C.

November 23, 1999
1:42 pm
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I don't think I questioned it, I just said he/she because I didn't know. I kind of thought you were female.

Now, you have had quite a life young lady!? I could tell from your other posts you were bright! Very concise. Your word choice and structure is way above the norm.

Why did you get mixed up with drugs? Such a bright future. You said your BF stopped dealing. From what I know and also heard, that never happens. They just do it in private. After all, they know you want to get clean, and they sure as hell don't want to loose THIER DRUG (YOU), so they do what they must to get what they want.

But, I could be wrong. Am I?????????? Anyway, I applaud your turn around. Really! You are doing amazaing things in such a short time. I hope you keep it up. You and I both know the drugs are only a symptom of the problem. Something to numb the pain.

I used woman. Same thing. I'm an rel. addict, although I have done a 180 as well. Still a struggle sometimes. I finally have true serenity in mylife, so to speak. What I mean is there is no chaos, especially with my relationships. I took time off from Jan. to July. Met a girl, it lasted 3 months. VERY chaotic. Got me depressed. Here all this work and boom back to square on. SHIT! But, my fault. I repeated my pattern. I choose the same petty insecure woman. She was into cousneling, etc. too. Couldn't figure out why it went wrong. My counselor says it doesn't make a shit if your into counsleing or not, if you don't apply and practice what you learn, your no better off. Your still sick and will act sick. So, I guess we both were. Me, because I didn't see the signs sooner, and her, because of her actions towards me.

But hey, at least I DID see it. Right? Even though it took three months, its better than 3 1/2 years like my last rel. I am cutting down on the learning curve, so something must be working.

Anyway, did you read my thread from august. am very curious to hear your insights. I know its alot, but humor me. Please!

Thanks ci ci.

Look forward to your comments. After all, you have a thread named after you. Can you feel the pressure???

😉

Broc

November 24, 1999
12:08 pm
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Cici
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No pressure my man.

I remember reading some of your posts. I think. Did it involve some really messed up stuff? I remember reading posts from august about a strange relationship and an awful group of "friends." Remind me of the name...

I think as far as that goes, I posted on the other thread that people don't like changing. That's the bottom line. For most people, it's nice and comforting to have that job where you re-write the same proposal for a year and then get a bonus for finally finishing it, only to start another one. It's nice and comforting to live in that 3 bedroom house with a mortgage and 2.5 children, because then you can complain about how boring your life is. And get together with your other friends who have the same exact life and complain with them about changing diapers and work blah blah blah.

If you lose your job, get a divorce, break up, suddenly everything changes! You scramble to get back to the same place of stasis, barely living, just existing. How many people will pick up and move on a whim? Sell all their shit, buy new shit, recreate their perception of reality? Not many. They go out to dinner, vote every four years, make five-year plans.

I can't see that. Maybe because I'm an idealistic college student with so little money and about four big pieces of furniture (bed, couch, TV, coffee table), so it doesn't really matter to me.

I like to stream-line my friends. That cuts way down on obligations, which is nice. I figure, if they make me pissed off enough, I just stop calling them and (with the wonderful invention of caller-ID) don't take their calls. I keep people a arm's length, thus, I avoid drama (I can still hear juicy gossip, though).

I think my boyfriend has quit dealing, being that I stay with him virtually every night. can't stand the parent's house. I manage well on my own to stay drug free. Granted, the growing season is long over and another crop won't spring up until mid to late December, so he's made his money for the year and can now sit back and enjoy himself. Heh, perhaps it wasn't for me, but for convenience sake? My good friend who shall remain unnamed just went to prison for possession and sale of narcotics. It made us all a little scared.

As far as rel. addiction goes...I don't know. I guess we all want the comfort of a warm body there, just so we can assure ourselves that we aren't actually alone. I realized a while back that we're alone no matter who we're with or what we do. I went to therapy briefly, but I ended it. I have learned to look at myself honestly and acceptingly, I think that's the key. And to look at others the same. And respecting yourself. If you do that, people will respect you too.

Huh. Tag. You're it.

November 24, 1999
12:45 pm
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nice words cici my friend, I am glad to are staying sober and clear headed.....goood for you!!!!!!!!!!

November 24, 1999
2:13 pm
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Cici
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Hi Tears...thanks! It's so funny how things turn out. How willing we are to let life go on in the same patterns until we become less than human, even animal in out existance because we fear the life that cahnge will lead to. Because we fear the unknown.

Broc, I just finished reading the hwole thing. E-gad. I remember earlier this year, breaking up with my boyfriend at the time because my best friend of ten years slept with him. I forgave them both long ago, in my heart. i don't really talk to them now. Funny enough, they broke up not three months after they started dating (immediately after I broke off relations with both of them).

I feel sad for people like that. Because they are stuck in a life of continual adolescent drama! Never becoming an adult...that's scary.

November 24, 1999
5:48 pm
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CiCi,

Hello my sweet. Been busy. God, I just love your posts. Eloquent, and straight to the point!

Patterns. Wow. Have you ever read the book "If Life Is a Game, Here are the Rules?"

Its about life, but funny how it realates to all aspects of each of our lives. Chapter 4 says it all! Buy it! It is awesome! Not too long, maybe 100 pages or so! She just wrote another book, "If Love is a game, here are the rules."

Anyway, just a thought.

I am assuming you meant you read my thread from august. makes my stomach turn just to think about the whole mess. And yes, as in your situation, I hear that Jim and Shannon are no longer dating either.......His soon to be ex. told me she met his new girlfreind. Said she is VERY beautiful.....blows shannon away! Doesn't suprise me. Jim always told me he didn't think she was attractive. Jim has always been a cheater and chickenshit. Never alone just like shannon. He just needed a crutch while he went through the divorce; shannon, sad to say, and I'm sure you can tell, has suppppppppper low self-esteem. When I was with her I treated her badly. I got away with murder. She would eat mounds of shit and ask for more, all for the sake of having me in her life. I am, I think, a great catch. But now I know with all my counseling and help that that doesn't matter one bit. They can be Donald Trump.....if they are fucked up, leave them. Unfortunately for shannon, she can't see that. she is broken and needs major help. i asked her to go to counseling after we broke up in jan.......she blew smoke in my face, gave me a condecending look, and said "I don't need that shit, you might!" And that was that.

Its just like I have learned, and you pin-pointed in your last post here....several of them as a matter of fact. People don't want to change. It is scary! Very scary. They would rather run around like a chicken with their head cut off to get things back to the "norm", then to do what I/We have all done. Got off the fucking train and looked in the mirror. Thats where the problem is....not outside, but in!

I tried to tell her this once in a letter. She said thanks but no thanks. She just "choose" wrong. When she meets the "right" guy, ALL will be ok.

She wouldn't listen. There is no "right" one unless YOUR right with you. Again, it fell on deaf ears. Still makes me sad, but I am trying to forget her totally.

I wonder why I still think of her. I wonder why I still miss her.

I have done a ton of counseling, coda groups, and books. I have a healthy woman in my life who does the same work as I do. She is awesome. My life is no longer chaotic, but yet I miss her. I know we would NEVER make it. I have changed, but she is still the same, which would still make a rel. with her impossible. Both have to change in order for it to work! No man can make it with her. But she doesn't see it, or want too, who knows. Maybe its cause I we were together for so long. I don't know. It worries me though....thinking about her. She is screwed up. Proved it over and over by her behaviors towards me in our relationship. And even after we broke up, starteed dating a week after and went through 3 guys in a row before she and jim started screwing....all this within 2 1/2 months! She slept with jim, my best friend, while his wife was pregnant! How fucked up is that? I had no idea she would sink so low as to do that? I mean, thats pretty fucked up, isn't it? Or am I just imagining things?

Anyway, she does all that and still, I think about her?

Any adive her cici? Many questions. Do you have any answers?

Broc

November 25, 1999
1:53 am
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Broc,
So nice to see your back, I haven't heard from you in a while. I'm very glad to see things are slowly falling into place for you.
Something you said in your post that struck me. You said you followed your pattern once again when you met the woman (of 3 1/2 months). There is one thing that you did that was unlike you of the past. You caught onto your behavior right away, thats a great sign my friend! Your seeing the light, even though it wasn't pretty, you still saw it!
I'm also happy to see your feelings have settled on the Jim/Shannon bit - see, what did I tell you about them. *just teasing*
Take care and glad to see your back!
daizy

November 25, 1999
4:51 pm
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When you stay with someone for a long time, you become attatched to them. Bottom line. Even if that person was an asshole to you, you still miss their presence. I mean, there were things that you liked, perhaps even loved about your ex, and just because she did something really awful and betrayed your trust doesn't erase what made you love her.

I suppose in the end it's about closing the book. When you can look back on the situation and the people involved and really just feel pity, I mean really, which will probably take a few years, that's when you can say you're voer her. That doesn't mean you pause your life. Time marches on interminably. You just learn to deal with the burdens that have been placed on your heart. That's what learning to be strong and true and good is all about. Being able to bear your burdens with strength and courage and peace.

November 28, 1999
3:52 pm
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Daizy,

Hi. Nice to see you too. Yes, I am better. You are one of those I must thank. Your posts, and emails got me through some very trying times. I will not ever forget that. You have a friend for life!

And yes, I just knew I would get an "I told you so" about Jim and Shannon. I am assuming your speaking of them breaking up. Right?

Anyway, hope to see more of you here.

Love to you!
Broc

November 28, 1999
3:58 pm
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Cici,

Your right.....as usual!

I think about it from time to time. About my question. Why, even after all that shit do I think about her. Up until your answer I only had one answer for my behavior.....it was your answer.

Understand?

I thought as you do. After all the shit, why do I htink about her still. I told myself that it was the time that I spent with her. Many times were good. She was a friend....a companion. I miss her, as you said, "her presence". I miss talking with her on the phone. I miss painting her toenails, and her child like sense......her gettiness (sp?). I just miss "her". The presense of her.

I wonder though if after as bad as I was too her, and after all this time (10 months), if she feels the same as I do. Knowing it will never be again, but thinking of me now, like I think of her. Do you think she misses "my presense?"

Broc

November 29, 1999
10:33 am
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It depends on how bad you were to her. I had an ex who was slightly abusive...nothing major, just a few slaps here and there. I remember him with no fondness whatsoever. I don't miss his talks, i don't miss him. I think of him only when necessary (we have mutual friends).

So there you go. It's inexplicable how two people can be tied up to one another so completely. Especially when sometimes there is truly so little in common. It is strange, sometimes, to think about how heartily we cling to one another to stave off the feelings of lonliness that creep up on us. I sit by myself, happily. Over Thanksgiving (I live in the student ghetto) me and my neighbor were the only ones in the neighborhood. When he was off with family, I was by myself. I liked it. Of course, some might label me anti-social. I just like the peace and quiet that solitude brings me.

December 1, 1999
10:43 am
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Cici
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I don't know what to do. all of a sudden this girl calls me up, Nellie, the one who slept with my boyfriend in June. The one who caused me to come to this site...I don't know if anyone will read this. I am at a loss. She comes to me saying she's seeing a therapist, she's better now....I don't know if I can trust her. but I was friends with her for 10 years. I loved her. She and I had the closest relationship I've ever had.

My boyfriend doesn't know about her and I...I don't think he would feel comfortable knowing about it. That I loved someone else for so long, since high school, that she was the most important thing to me and I was to her. She called me and said she missed hearing the sound of my voice. I don't know whether to see her or not.

Ths doesn't sound like me. This sounds all quivery and unsure, I am a confident person! But hearing from her brings back so many feelings. i don't understand myself.

December 1, 1999
5:09 pm
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Cici,

Wow. I had almost the same thing happen this last weekend. It was Shannons best friend I ran into with her boyfriend. I felt REALLY weird.

So, I hear you. As for what to do, that is a judgement call. If my best buddy Jim came back, I would not give him the time of day. He had a choice, and he made it. Several times. He never spoke to me, came to me, and even to this day has spoken to me. He still denies it ever happened to those around me, and so does she. So, thats from my perspective.

Cici, I am a forgiving person. To forgiving and naive sometimes. But really, 10 years is long, but what the fuck? Counseling is fine, but that was only six months ago. You and I both know that is no where long enough to get into counseling, figure out oneself, and put into action the changes so that your BEHAVIORS will change. Give me a break.

Thats the way I look at it. And besides, ask her for the receipts. How many times has she gone? Once. Just enough for the therapist to say, yeah, that was bad and don't do it again. Has she even looked within to see the probolems.

Thats my input. If it were me, and I was WILLING to give the benenfit of a doubt, I would say call me in a year after consisitant therapy.

You know whats right cici. you know what to do. thats why your confused. You want to believe her, but you insticts say no!

I learned something in group the other night. The lady spoke of "it". That voice in your head that talks to you. Now, its very important to distinguish between that voice and you. Understand?

For example, when you were doing drugs, and you thought about the consequesnces of doing them, the voice that first said, this is bad shit cici, don't do it....thats "it". The voice after that was you.

The lady said that little voice "it" always tells you the truth....the right thing to do. After that, the voice you hear is YOU, and its lieing.

Broc

December 1, 1999
5:13 pm
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Cici,

You said it all depended on how bad I was too her (as to whether you still think she would still be thinking of me even today)

I never ever hit her. Never. It was just the arguing, control, manipulating. The same stuff she did to me. Thats it.

So I think to myself. Even after all that shit she did to me, and on top of that sleeping with Jim (my best friend), and I STILL THINK of her and miss her, don't you think its very possible she still thinks of me and misses me as well?

Just curious.

Broc

December 2, 1999
10:44 am
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Cici
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Broc...

People are mysterious creatures. It's difficult, I think, to comprehend why they do the things they do, especially when they don't even understand themselves. You and I and others on this site are a different breed. We are the people who think and analyze and mull, the people who listen to the answers that others give them and really try to understand the deeper meaning. We try to understand the deeper meaning in ourselves and our actions.

Remember your old group of friends? How confused and anxious and hectic they were. They were so focused on trying to forget themselves, you know? So focused on trying to distract themselves from the lack that they saw in themselves. After all, isn't ignorance the root of hostility?

So I think you give this woman too much credit. I think sometimes, at night, before she sleeps, or whenever she is alone (however few times those might be!), an uneasy feeling might pass through her. Perhaps that is "it" as you put it, for her. But I don't think she stops to listen. People like that never do. They surround themselves with others like them and immerse themselves in excess: too much sex, too much drinking, too much fighting, too much shit. That way they can forget that they will be lonely for the rest of their lives because they are unable to make a true human connection.

You know what Walt Whitman said..."Simplify, simplify."

Thank you for your advice. I was ambivalent. I even wrote her an email saying we might go out for dinner. But now I realize you're right.

You know that quote: "What strange webs we weave when we as mortals seek to deceive." Thank you for your clear head!

C 🙂

December 2, 1999
1:25 pm
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Cici,

? - Give her too much credit. What do you mean?

Also, maybe its just been a long week, but I am unclear of your response to whether its possible or not that she still thinks of me.....what I am doing, who I am dating, whats going on in my life.

I fully realize that that group does what it does because they don't want to face reality. The same shit over and over. Thats why shannon, or jim, or any of them for that matter want to be alone for any length of time.

But, as I said before, I after all the shit that happened between us, after all her meaness, control, manipulation, and the Jim and her incident, I STILL think about her. I wonder whats shes doing. Who is she dating. How her life is, or isn't.

Make sense? She was such a big part of my life for so long, I would just hate to think that I'm not on her mind as much as she is on mine.

I would think it impossible for her to be any different from me, ESPECIALLY when she chased ME for the four years we were together. Always upset when we would break up. And during those short breakups, she would cry for days if she found I was dating someone new. She would hide it very well. Never show it to me, maybe once or twice, but thats it. It was her friends that would call me and say she is very upset and misses me and wants me back.

I don't know why I wonder, or even care.

I didn't do anything any worse to her than she did to me.

Know what I mean Cici?

Its been almost a year now, and like I said, I still think about her in some shape or form every day. Very short, but still.

Do you think its possible I am erased from her mind....to the point where she doesn't think of me, wonder whats happening in my life?

I miss her. I miss "HER". I don't miss the shit, or her issues...I just miss, i guess, her presence, and would feel better, for some odd reason, that she misses mine.

Broc

December 3, 1999
9:14 am
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Hey Broc.
Ego call! I think you are getting a bit obsessed as to whether shannon is thinking of you. This is a lot to do with Ego isn't it. Would you be happy to know she is crying over you? I think you also wish that you could both grow and have the good you had before without the bad. Might happen if she grows too. Just my views.
Cici,
I had the same thing with ex best friend, she phones me up after ages and says " lets have dinner, oh Ive also had a baby!"
Freaky, well I went out with her a couple of times and realised that nothing had changed. She was still manipulative and pushy. She was just lonely and that is why she phoned. I say meet up with her, you will know if she has changed or not.
Any who, peace to both of you, got to go walk doggie!
Hazza

December 3, 1999
10:35 am
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Cici
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Broc, babe. come on!

Let me break it down for ya. shannon saw you as a representation of something. She definately has many major relationship dysfunctions, and those relationship dysfunctions are an outgrowth of internal strife. She has some major conflictsgoing on inside that head.

People like that become fixated on objects or people because those people represent something in their heads. If she had really known and wanted you for YOU, things wouldn't have been so based on manipulations, mind games and power struggles.

The problems came from her having an image of you in her head and you not fitting that image because it was not YOU, it was her own creation. Some might say you both probably held illusions. Hell, most relationships nowadays are based on mutual blindness!

She probably thinks of you as she saw you, not as you really are. The real you was never a reality for her.

You can say as much as you want about getting over things, but you haven't closed the book on this. The story with her and all them is over, sweetie. Close the book.

December 3, 1999
10:38 am
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Hazza!

What's up...you have a dog? I have two. Remember, the new puppy named Norman? It was so cold last night, I was grateful for the dogs, even though it felt kind of medeival to have them sleeping on the bed with me.

I hope things are going well for you. Ya, this girl is wacky. She's stalking me, I swear. I got four emails from her two days in a row. She rsigned up for all my classes at the beginning of the semester. Sketchy.

I asked others about the situation, and the consensus is that manipulative people stay manipulative. Sociopath, anyone?!

December 3, 1999
12:56 pm
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Cici,

Manipulation. Yeah, I know that word. Like Hazza said, her friend hadn't changed, and with such a short time span between your breakup and her calling you, no way in hell she has changed. No way in hell!

As for your comments, I hear ya.

For me, at least in my mind, the shit with my former friends still haunts me. They were so mean and uncaring when I needed them most. I went through this "transformation" alone. No support other than from my Mom. No one else to talk to.

You and others, even myself, have talked at length as to why most people stay in the shit and refuse to change....change is painful. Well, multiply that by 100 and thats how bad I felt. It really was aweful.

I know why they all did what they did. They had to or they would have had to change themselves. Here I was ranting and raving about "issues" and change and they didn't want to hear it. They did for a day or so, and that was that. NOT ONE CALL AFTER THAT TO SEE HOW I WAS. And this was after years of friendships with all of them. This was after I listened to them, let them cry on my shoulder, bailed them out of many situtations.....I never abandoned them like they did me.

So yeah, I still have a wound. Its gets better ever day. But I think what makes it worse is that their actions were so.....fucked up that it made no sense to me, at the time. Now, like I said before, I realize they did waht they did out of their own dysfucnitions, especially Jim and Shannon. They are needy. They can't be alone. So, they took solice in each others company, and when something else came along, in this case with Jim, he bailed and left shannon spinning.

I guess that what chaps me the most. A 12 year friendship gone and for what, because he wanted out of his marriage, he didn't want to be alone, so he took a woman he knew inside and out because of me, and used that knowledge against her. Her incredible neediness as displayed by her history of never being without a man for longer than a few weeks paved the way for Jim.

God, that is so shitty. He lost a best friend, a wife, a son, and for what? For fucking what?

As far as the Shannon thinking of me, well, I don't think thats ego speaking. She always spoke of her first beau, John so highly that for some reason I would like to be spoken of the same. You know what I mean?

Cici, she had a VERY hard time saying her true feelings to me. Only a handfull of I love yous in four years. I guess if I knew she still thought of me, it would validate I did mean somehthing to her.

Her friends would always tell me, "Broc, that girl loves you to death." "She just can't say it, its hard for her."

She always came back after our breakups pleading with me to take her back. She would be super affectionate and attentive for about 4-5 months, then the bitching, pettiness, jealousy would come storming back. She always told me I was going to leave her, it was a matter of time. No matter WHAT I did to prove otherwise, SHE NEVER believed me.

Anyway, I know deep down she loved me. It would have just been nice to hear it more often. It would be nice to hear a few apoligies from her and the rest of them.

Lots of little wounds.

Sorry to babble. I am really alot more healthy than I appear to be. Just still haunts me. Know what I mean.

Broc

December 4, 1999
5:32 pm
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Cici
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Broc,

I know how it feels to lose a whole group of friends. After my incident, I voluntarily stopped all contact with the people I had hung out with. After doing that, I spent several weeks in personal mediation, not speaking to anyone, thinking about my life and what I wanted. I indluged in drugs, searching for answers but really distracting myself from the problem. Aftera while I realized that humans are social creatures. We need social interaction to be human. So I began interacting with people.

But I still have difficulty inviting people into my life. I have friends, but I keep them all at arm's length. That feels more safe to me.

So...I understand where you're coming from and how difficult it can be to spearate yourself from so many years of memories.

Last night I was at a party, which was purported to be a kegger. Just drinking, right? I get there and that's how it starts. A little weed, a lot of beer. Then all of a sudden there's valiums. And a little later, coke. Ack! I haven't done drugs in so long. Now they're all infront of me and I feel like Janis Joppelin with a pile of heroin in front of her. Kids today, right? They're crazy. People talking about sitting in a room with a window AC unit, sucking freon from the tube until it doesn't work any more. That's not me, man.

I left. But I remember the feeling I got, staring at the rocks of coke while one of my friends broke it up with a credit card. I felt so...hungry. Starving. I wanted to just take a pinch of powder on my tongue sooooooo bad. But I didn't. I went home drunk, feeling worse for not taking any. I woke up feeling even worse with a hangover to boot. This world, I feel, is crazy.

December 5, 1999
5:46 am
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hazza
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cici,
its not been that long,
your going to be hungry for a while, it will pass.
keep strong.
haz

December 6, 1999
10:31 am
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Hi Hazza...

I will maintain! I think talking to my old best friend reminded me of what I used to be and what I want now. I'm glad, now, I'm out of all that. i'm talking to my mom again. She's been seeing a therapist, apparently. She told me she loved me for the first time in almost 8 months. I was so happy I started crying and she made me a sandwich. I think as long as I work hard in school and try to be the best I can be, everything will work out in the end.

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