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Confused About Abuse vs Co-Dependency
February 3, 2004
3:08 pm
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Worried_Dad
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LCV,

What A&S says.

Couples counseling will confuse you both. Let me repeat: Couples Counseling is CONTRAINDICATED for abusive relationships. A counselor who specializes in FIXING relationships is NOT going to tell you "Why don't you just get out of this relationship and stop paying me to help you fix it."

You want permission to get out? Get out, just get the hell out. AFTER you have some distance, then you can do a postmortem. It sound very much like you want out of it. Get out.

You feel like a bitch? Guess what...the natural, logical, adaptive response to outrageous behavior is outrage. Your urge to flee is a protective response to danger. Flee!

The fact that your therapist is giving YOU a list of things to mend each week demonstrates his or her ignorance, as well as their willingness to endanger you. Do not return to that therapist.

It is inappropriate for a batterer and a victim to have the same therapist.

If, after six months to a year of FOCUSED work, you husband shows cognitive and behavioral changes and has also been NONABUSIVE for that period of time, THEN couples counseling MIGHT be appropriate. Until themn, protect your self.

So say I, Worried Dad, B.S., L.P.N.

February 3, 2004
3:13 pm
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Anonymous
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There are two books that I think are great for you Ive read them both

Why does he do that, inside the minds of angry and controlling men,

the second one is the Batterer, a psychological profile, it is great!! a lot of insight, but I think you will get more from the first one too. They will both help you to understand the situation, and realize it is not you, it is him, and you will read in there things that he has done to you, the way he acts, the things he say, you will be able to relate, and it will scare you, but knowledge is power.

February 3, 2004
3:24 pm
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LCV
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Worried...
What does B.S.L.P.N. mean?

Aces....Thanks for the book references, I will read them

February 3, 2004
3:25 pm
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The hardest thing for a victim to do is to leave. It sounds like you know that is what you want. Of course, you don’t want to be a “bitch.” Of course you do not want to hurt your partner. That is because you are a normal, healthy, decent person. But you are really in it up to your neck.

Make a safety plan. Call a women’s shelter. Get a lawyer. Secure as much escape money for yourself as you can. If you have been recently or repeatedly assaulted, and can produce corrborating evidence for it, you can obtain a Domestic Violence Protection order granting you protection as well as temporary custody of your children. You do not need a lawyer to obtain that protection and there is little or no financial cost to you. I suggest that you request that the protection order give you temporary possesion of your home. If your husband owns firearms, request that he surrender them. Do NOT run away and leave children with the abuser.

Do not talk to your spouse about these things. Conceal your activity on the computer. Before you leave your computer, pull down the “Tools” menu on you internet browser. Select “Internet Options.” Click the “Clear History” Button. Also click the “Delete Cookies” button. That should give you some security, unless your husband is a total computer genius.

Worried Dad,
Bachelor of Science,
Licensed Practical Nurse

February 3, 2004
3:34 pm
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LCV
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I have talked with a lawyer (although about divorce, not about the abuse), I have started to save "unknown" money, and I have ordered our credit reports to make sure that is under control, (he has $$$ issues as well). When he slammed my arm in the door, (12 days ago) I had pictures taken, he admitted it to the therapist when she asked how I got the bruise on my arm and my Mom was at my house when he did it, although she did not actually see him do it. Is that enough evidence?

February 3, 2004
3:38 pm
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Anonymous
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You have a problem with that, from a legal point of view, it is good that you have that as evidence, but if you are looking to press charges, they rarely will file charges, unless it is the day of or after the abuse, the legal system works oddly that way. The only time they will fle charges from a length of time after an abuse is sexual abuse, but to use in court for a divorce, it will be great evidence for you. Criminally, though the next time he hurts you, you need to call the police if you feel comfortable, and that is the step you want to take, if not though it is understandable.

February 3, 2004
5:34 pm
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Dear LCV,

Your husband has committed second or third degree assault. Yes, if you have a witness to the bruises, and you have photos, then you have evidence. You probably can press charges, but the main impact of that will be to make him hire a lawyer, take time to defend himself, etc., which may be desirable strategy, or it may just make him angry.

I don't get the idea that you are eager to press charges, and that is okay. It is important for your husband to understand that what he has done IS a crime and COULD have serious legal consequences.

You DO have enough to get a DV protection order. Start with that. Yes, indeedy.

You go to court and fill out papers for an ex-parte protection order. You bring your mom,any others who know about your case, the photos, your therapy bills. You bring with you anyone who knows what has been happening. That same day, you appear before a judge. The Judge will usually grant you the order right then and there, without hearing from your spouse. Papers get served on your spouse.

Within two weeks the full hearing happens. Everyone gets their say, and laywers may be present. Bring yours.

You can request that he be required to keep a certain number of yards or miles away from you, your house, your workplace. You can request that he surrender firearms (a good idea.)You can request, and just might get your spouse to pay for your legal fees related to getting the protection order. After all, you wouldn't have to go there if he had not been violent. You can also request use of family car, etc.

At that hearing, the judge decides whether to make your temporary protection order stand. Judges usually take the woman's side here. If you can show, through the preponderance of evidence,that assault happened, you get your protection order.

Unfortunately, as Free and others can tell you, an order is just a piece of paper...but, it gives you the power to have him arrested RIGHT AWAY if he violates the order.

The order also creates a paper trail documenting his abusiveness--handy if he decides to get really violent.

I am very sorry that this is happening to you. Take care of yourself. Thank God there are no kids involved here.

February 4, 2004
4:01 am
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Hi LCV,

I guess my biggest question is why do you feel you need "someone to tell you to leave?"

If you are that unhappy, and he is that abusive - and he is. I mean what the hell? Are you going to let him slam your arms, legs, finger in doors - and possibly break them? Let him shove you so hard you fall and crack your tailbone, slam you so hard into the wall that you break your nose, but then say "but, he did not make a fist and hit me?" You know what, I guess after reading this - I realize my daughters ex-boyfriend technically did not "hit" her either when he attacked her. But, she has been in the hospital for over a year, and has another year to go.

I know I'm sounding like a broken record here... but, I am really feeling lately that I need to make other people aware of abuse and if they can get out to get out. If I can stop another person from being hurt like my daughter was hurt... I will.

I will find where I posted to Aces what happened, and will post it here. Please read it. Please learn from it. My new cause is "I don't want to read about another statistic." I'm beginning to feel as if I have a calling for this.

Let me find that.

Z.

February 4, 2004
4:09 am
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Zinnie
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LCV and anyone else in this situation,

Please read this - also know that this animal knew exactly when to attack. He went after her right after her sister was killed last year, and he knew she would not be overly alert. How do I know this? The one that did cooperate with the Prosecution (he got 22 years vs. the 30 years), told the Court that he the boyfriend had laughed about it saying she would be "easy pickins."

The extent of Lisa's injuries?

First of all, let me state that Lisa is a small girl. She is only about 5'3, and 105 lbs. soaking wet. She was attacked by three "men" all of who were at least 5'11 and weighing in at least 180 lbs.

Lisa was gang raped by all three, and sodomized. They did reconstructive surgery on her vagina and anus. She will never be able to have children, because this also resulted in a hysterectomy. She was stabbed over 30 times, with several of the stab wounds piercing her uterous - which lead to the hysterectomy. Her right leg was broken, and her left leg and hip was shattered. She had to have a hip replacement, and if not for the recent changes in electronic pulse implants she would have been in a wheel chair. As it is, she will never walk again unaided. She had two broken arms, seven broken fingers. She lost some of the vision in her left eye, and the brow bone was broken requiring two plastic surgeries to correct. She lost 75% of her hearing in her left ear, and she is a musician, so this will affect her way of making a living. She has just a hearing implant put in, and we are seeing improvement. She was left with brain damage, and is having to relearn how to do things; eating, using the bathroom, even speach. She says things backwards or will even forget which language she is speaking and will switch in the middle of a conversation. This was a result of being kicked viciously in the head several times and she suffered two strokes.

My child is 26 years old. The people that pulled over when they saw her lying on the side of the road thought she was dead. The EMT's did not expect her to make it to the hospital. She was so traumatized that she could not and would not say one single word for over a month.

But, here she is - doing the best that she can each and every day.

Him? His Mommy and fiance wrote to all of us to ask if we would sign off on paperwork so he could get "help" - and lessen his prison term. NO!

He also just married this woman, who sat there crying about how all of this was a "terrible mis-understanding."

Z.

February 4, 2004
9:26 am
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tooscared
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Zinnie, that still just makes me so sick to my stomach and it makes me even angrier that the one guy's family wrote asking for leniency. Who gave any leniency to Lisa? I think I would want to kill anyone who hurt my daughter in that way. I guess you push passed the anger and get into just being totally involved in the healing process for Lisa, but I pray that these men will one day have to answer to what they have done - even more than in the justice system.

February 4, 2004
11:24 am
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LCV
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Zinnie -
Thank you for your concern and for sharing your story. I did read that when you were talking with Aces.It is an AWFUL, HORRIBLE lesson that Lisa has learned and that hopefully we can all learn without having to go through it time and time again. It sounds like you are truly trying to teach those that will learn from you, and maybe it is your "calling". Lisa sounds like a very strong young woman.

When you ask why I need "someone to tell me to leave", the only answer I have is that I don't want to be the mean one. He has now been on best behaviour for about 2 weeks and now I feel like I should give him a chance since he seems to truly be remorseful. I KNOW that this is called "the honeymoon phase" thanks to Aces. More than likely things will NOT change. I am taking actions to leave this situation. Even though in my head I know I should run the other way as quickly as possible, my heart still wants to make sure no one gets too hurt. But I need to look out for myself and people that care about me because I NEVER want my mom to have to tell the story that you are Zinnie. I am truly sorry for you and I hope to gain strength from your story.
Again...thank you for sharing with us.

February 4, 2004
12:36 pm
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ncm
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LCV...that is not love..never has been...never will be. Run.

February 4, 2004
12:45 pm
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LCV
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NCM

Have you had a similar situation? What is the experience?

February 4, 2004
4:40 pm
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ncm
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Been through it with a friend. Someone who loves you will not ever do the things that this guy is doing. Love is not cruel...Love is kind. My friend almost waited too long to run..but she did and now her life is much better..I thank God everyday that I still have her here as a friend. I don't think it will get better..only worse..because you are walking on eggshells already waiting for the next shoe to drop..and it won't take much to set him off. If nothing else, take a trial separation and give him time to prove himself to you..he needs to get alot of help..Batterers in my opinion usually come from batterers..Loving him is not enough to change him. Have the strength to take care of you first.

February 4, 2004
5:08 pm
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LCV
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NCM -

You have worded it so perfectly. Thank you for the support, and for just plain making sense.

I told him today that I would be attending a meeting tonight dealing with domestic violence. He immediately wanted to look it up on the internet and was asking a million questions. His angle is that this will not help our marriage. He wants to know if I am going to help myself or to help our marriage....

February 4, 2004
7:02 pm
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Molly
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Watch the word games, and never forget that it is all about them. Why should they care about you, you don't. We teach people how to treat us. Pull up the Charmer Abuser threads, look up Narcissism... its all there, how you are like prey trapped in the web. All facets of your being is distorted. It amazes me how little we women value our selves. How we clutch to the sick, and the damned, and say ugh ugh what should I do, what do you think, I am battered, bleeding,internally, externally, my kids are watching this dynamic, and confused,I can't think straight, I live in fear, he has jepordized our financial well being, he verbally trashes me daily, and I am wearing it, he hasn't really hit me, but one hell of a bruise from the last push fest, he lies to me daily,I don't know where he is half the time, and not allowed to ask any more, has fathered other children while we were married, but he says he loves me , and I don't want to hurt him ???????????????? Every one shares their experience,on the threads, people on TV,some have died, been mamed, their children kidnapped, families burned, but YOU don't want to hurt any one ???? Heck you even had a man respond to you, with initials behind his name, just what is it going to take ? I know just because I got over it, I sound arrogant, but part of my reason for posting is because I want others to learn from my experience, but do you listen ??? No some want to get hit first, well let me tell you, that after you get hit, you will still be dizzy, and explain that away as well. Girls this is real life, you can read, you can go to group, you can listen, but you will just sit, until you are damn good and ready to get off your ass and take action, and that is sometimes hard for us to take. This is gentle to what I posted yesterday, and deleted. I applaud
Worried Dad, he had a great post or two... That human aspect of free will really pisses me off sometimes, but its your choice...
molly bs, ms, cdac..... and what the hell do those mean, not a damn thing if you don't hear the words of experience.......book, and real life

February 4, 2004
7:16 pm
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LCV
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Molly-
You say that you speak from experience, that you got over it. What is your story?

February 4, 2004
7:29 pm
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LCV I was married to an abusive man for twenty seven years - shall I repeat that? TWENTY SEVEN WASTED YEARS, and even then I didnt leave, because I didnt know how, and every time it happened he was always sorry, - but I just read Mollys post and couldnt help but say my piece. It took me more years to realise after we had parted, (he left me!) before I was able to see this thing in perspective, and grow emotionally.

If I had known during that marriage what I know now I would NEVER have stayed with him. You are questioning things - Good! I hope these good people here will help you find the answers you need.

love K

February 4, 2004
7:40 pm
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LCV
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Hi K-

Thanks for the message. I'm glad you are happy now. I will be too one day very soon....

February 4, 2004
8:14 pm
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Zinnie
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Hi all,

Just read through this again, Molly you speak the truth, and some of what you said is what I had planned on writing here.

The first time you see abuse, you leave, you get out and you stay gone. Why? They will never get better, or actually I shoud say - yes, they DO get better, they get better at what they do, and better at hiding it, and better at talking you into staying.

What saddens me has been reading over these threads the last few days, and reading over and over and over again about women who are married or dating a man that is abusive, and they know it - have even ended it because of the abuse; but, then... take them right back because they "feel sorry" for them, or the abuser has apologized.

Abuse is NEVER O.K. Got it? It's not. Just like I said in my above post - I mean when is enough enough? Why wait for him to actually "hit" you, when he has been pushing and biting and slapping and slamming you for however long it's been? For those that have children and stay - think about it, what are you teaching your children? Your daughters? Oh, honey - sure marry the man that beats the hell out of you, as long as he says he's sorry. Your sons? Go ahead boy, knock her around just shrug your shoulders and say sorry afterwards.

I keep reading over and over and over again "well, I don't want to be mean" - what about what they have done to you? My daughter dated this jerk for two years and then some. He did not hit her, but he did other things to her like not showing up when he said he would, or showing up at times when she was at home by herself studying. Then say things like "stopped by to see if your other boyfriend was here." Because he didn't hit her, she shrugged it off. When he did slap her - she told him to get lost. You know the rest.

I have said over and over again here, you know I'm just a simpleton - so to me the answer is easy, just get out, don't see him anymore if you are only dating.

But do what you need to do to keep yourself safe.

Zinnie

February 4, 2004
10:38 pm
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Molly
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My experience you want to know LCV, why???? what the hell difference does it make, heck sweet heart, pull up any thing with Molly in in it from 98 ON.... FYI, the very last episode was 1/2/03 he came home right after me, out of the blue, kicked my dog, then when I walked down stairs to avoid further confrontation, he followed me, he poured a shot of tequila , drank half and tossed the other half in my face,with words, needless to say I reacted, he hit me, I tried to knee him in the balls, he gave me a Tai Kuando kick to my side and knocked me to the floor, he then dumped all the ice cubes on me,and took out all my water bottles from the fridge and hosed me down with them yelling in a rage that it was me that kept him from his friends and what would it take to make me and my dog leave.... I yelled 5k, he split.. While I packed my car, and realized the futility of the situation, with my bruises, from face to ass, stood looking at the mess in MY kitchen. he returned with a check, for 5k,I called my sis who said shut up, quit crying and take it to the bank. I left immediately, deposited it in the bank, went through carls Jr., came home ate the burger next to him, and said you made a big mistake... By 1/9/03 I had my own apt and slept with my dog, and neither of us lived in fear since then. 16 years of helllllllllllllllllllll Why did I stay, fear, insecurity, sex, fairy tales, hope, false sense of security, bull fucking shit...
I AM BROKE, I AM HAPPY, I AM COMPLETE, I AM FREE, I GOT IT, WANNA KNOW MORE JUST ASK, OR REVIEW THE POSTS, ITS ALL THERE... NO ONE IS PERFECT, NO ONE IS FREE FROM STUPIDITY, NO ONE CAN RELY ON INTUITION ALONE ALL THE TIME... PS, MY DOG DOESN'T LIVE IN FEAR EITHER ANY MORE...

February 5, 2004
2:08 am
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gingerleigh
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I have a theory... abuse "victims" actually suffer from a form of narcissim. Hear me out. For some reason, many of us are abused yet we claim that the abuser can change as a result of our love and devotion to him/her. Oh yeah, for some reason, we are so freakin' special that where everyone else on the planet has failed at being the catalyst for that change, somehow we will succeed. That's how convinced we are in our specialness. And that, ladies and gents, describes narcissism to a Tee.

We need to get over it. See what is before us and get a move-on. The alcoholic, the drug addict, the wife-beater, the porn addict, the philanderer... all of these people can change, but it's sure not because of anything we do or say. It's like expecting whether or not you are drinking pepsi or sprite at the roulette table to influence whether or not the ball lands on red or black. One has nothing to do with the other. The ball has landed on black, and you put everything you had on red. Walk away already.

February 5, 2004
5:03 am
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I never thought for a minute that I could change my ex. If there had been any sympathy or agencies around to help me I think I would have left. Other wives were tacitly sypathetic. The police didn't want to know - they told me calm down, go home and 'make it up'. There were no refuges, - I remember the first one here in the uk. - Relatives - all far away; and the shame......
Nowadays this sort of thing is talked about openly, it is much easier to get out.

Narcissistic? My self esteem was at floor level, after the constant insidious criticism and humiliation, in private and public.

Interestingly, though, I have often come across people who suffer from depression who have narcissism problems - myself included. Difficult to accept one's 'ordinariness' particularly if you're an only child, or don't have any close siblings. I came to the conclusion some years ago that acceptance of yourself as you are is the key to a peaceful existence. It came therefore as something of a shock to 'fall for' and imagine I could help my alcoholic friend! The 'trying to help' didnt last, it was obviously futile, but the feelings of attachment and longing to be near him did. I've struggled - and still am struggle - to understand this.

K

February 5, 2004
11:36 am
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LCV
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Good morning to you all-
Thank you for keeping the thread moving with your encouragemant. Molly you are hardcore, at first I wasn't sure I liked that, but actually it's EXACTLY what is needed in a situation like this...thank you for your concern.
I went to another meeting last night at Human Options discussing Personal Empowerment/Domestic Abuse. I think that I will only need a couple more weeks of this and alot more plan making on my end and this "situation" I am in will be in the beginning stages of OVER!!!
My husband tried to get me to stay home last night and to blow off the class. I did not listen and I went anyway...I am SO GLAD I did. He is not used to not getting his way. I thought he would be upset when I got home, but he did the EXACT opposite and was as sweet as could be....hmmmmm....maybe he is a bit smarter than I thought.....

February 5, 2004
2:29 pm
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Wow.

Zinnie, gain the story about your daughter is very frightening and infuriating. Those animals got off lightly.

Molly, Kessie--glad you got out. I think that it is good for LCV to hear how bad it can get.

LCV- don't wait for hitting to be the signal that you are "really" being physically abused. Heck, I rationalized putting up with being punched by thinking "She didn't really mean to hurt me," and "At least she doesn't point guns at me..." It is a splippery slope.

Besides, the verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse is what will scramble your mind, break your heart and wither your soul. An abuser doesn't have to lift a finger to destroy you.

Gingerleigh,

I take your point about how it could be narcissistic to presume that "my special love" could cure an abuser. But we do get a lot of socialization to the effect that unconditional love is what we all need. Also, abusers trick their victims into believing that it might be so. "If you just love me right, then I will return some love."

While grandiosity is considered the "classic" sign of pathological narcissism, a high sense of entitlement and a lack of empathy are two of the nine diagnostic indicators that best suggest the potential of these people to be abusers.

Narcissists believe that they should get their way at all times, so they feel entitled to treat other people like dirt. Since they feel no empathy, they don't care who gets hurt, and are untroubled by remorse or conscience.

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